Re: gEDA-user: command line options in the pcb manual

2010-04-17 Thread kai-martin knaak
DJ Delorie wrote:

>> Nothing?
>> Did any you developers look at the patch?
>> Every response welcome (and better than none).
> 
> No time yet, sorry.

Peter C. also stated, he has currently no cycles to spare.
 
Coincidently, I _have_ cycles to spare and I' like to see the pcb manual in 
a better shape. The patch for the extract-docs script I am asking to comment 
on, is part of this effort. 

How about the other developers? 
Peter B.? Bert T. ? Dan McM.? Larry D.? Harry E.?

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread John Doty

On Apr 16, 2010, at 8:47 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote:

> John Doty wrote:
> 
>>> Please stop trying to push your personal flow onto others :-)
>> 
>> Which one?
> 
> your makefile approach.

Heck, I don't even push that one on myself. For a small project, who needs it? 
But for a big project, there's no effective substitute.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Matthew Wilkins

No, I stand by it - zero impact.As far as I can see, all of the
required features are are already existing in gschem, so there really
wouldn't be any feature bloat.  This would be something that could be
added on by PCB users with a few edits to the gschemrc files.
--- On Sat, 4/17/10, John Doty  wrote:

  From: John Doty 
  Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols
  To: "gEDA user mailing list" 
  Received: Saturday, April 17, 2010, 1:10 PM

On Apr 16, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Matthew Wilkins wrote:
>It seems like there is room to add a footprint selector utility
that
>would interface between gschem/gattrib and PCB without impacting
>non-PCB users in any way.  In fact if PCB had an HID where it just
>starts up as a footprint browser and nothing else, you could use
PCB
>itself to assign footprints to symbols from within gschem or
gattrib.
>An option in the gschem config file could allow  users to define a
>command line to start PCB in that mode, and PCB would output the
>selected footprint attribute value before exiting.
>Users of other workflows might be able to use a similar type of
browser
>utility to work with other types of libraries  -- gnucap models?
>verilog models?  I don't know if that would be useful or not...
>Anyway, the point is that this type of feature can be added and
could
>be be completely invisible to other workflows, unless they want to
use
>it.
Completely invisible? No!
1. Any feature must be documented. Every addition to the documentation
adds to the fog hiding the the other parts of the documentation. One of
the advantages of a clean, simple, well-factored, modular approach is
that it simplifies the documentation.
2. Any feature can be misconfigured.
3. Any feature can be misunderstood.
In commercial software, there's tremendous pressure to add "features",
with the result that bloated, low productivity tools are the norm. A
free tool need not follow that path.
John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
[1]http://www.noqsi.com/
[2]...@noqsi.com
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References

   1. http://www.noqsi.com/
   2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=...@noqsi.com
   3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=geda-u...@moria.seul.org
   4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user


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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread John Doty

On Apr 16, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Matthew Wilkins wrote:

>It seems like there is room to add a footprint selector utility that
>would interface between gschem/gattrib and PCB without impacting
>non-PCB users in any way.  In fact if PCB had an HID where it just
>starts up as a footprint browser and nothing else, you could use PCB
>itself to assign footprints to symbols from within gschem or gattrib.
>An option in the gschem config file could allow  users to define a
>command line to start PCB in that mode, and PCB would output the
>selected footprint attribute value before exiting.
>Users of other workflows might be able to use a similar type of browser
>utility to work with other types of libraries  -- gnucap models?
>verilog models?  I don't know if that would be useful or not...
>Anyway, the point is that this type of feature can be added and could
>be be completely invisible to other workflows, unless they want to use
>it.

Completely invisible? No!

1. Any feature must be documented. Every addition to the documentation adds to 
the fog hiding the the other parts of the documentation. One of the advantages 
of a clean, simple, well-factored, modular approach is that it simplifies the 
documentation.

2. Any feature can be misconfigured.

3. Any feature can be misunderstood.

In commercial software, there's tremendous pressure to add "features", with the 
result that bloated, low productivity tools are the norm. A free tool need not 
follow that path.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread DJ Delorie

> ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ gsch2pcb project.txt 

Please try File->Import schematic in the latest PCB, it should work
(and needs more testing! :)


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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Armin Faltl

OMG, it works!

Thanks Stefan for all the help. Now the weekend has started.

I'll start a "Naming conventions and restrictions" page to
describe this and put on the wiki. In the long run, this should
be fixed in the parser(s) though.

Best Regards, Armin


Stefan Salewski wrote:

On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 13:10 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:
  

On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 12:37 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:



I think I have to rename all of them, including John Luciani's.


  

You have components in your schematic named Rf and Cf without numbers.
These seems to have no connection in the netlist.
The missing number in refdes seems to be a problem.





OK, seems to be all fixed now, see

http://www.ssalewski.de/tmp/armin20100417.tar


refdes without a digit at the end of the name seems to be indeed a big
problem, I am not sure if this is stated at a prominent location in the
gEDA/PCB documentation?

Minus signs in footprint names can be a problem, this should be well
known for people reading this list. But I do not know if this was indeed
a problem for your current design, I am too lazy to rename all back to
minus signs now.

Best regards

Stefan




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Armin Faltl

The 'RADIAL_CAN 200' I used to replace Luciani-footprints (I don't blame him
but the parser), after this proved non-working.

It is interesting to note, that in the file Hauptplatine_v1.new.pcb 
generated by gsch2pcb,

they translate to "RADIAL_CAN-200" in the Element-definition.

Maybe it is somewhere, but an authoritative definition of what 
characters are
allowed in identifiers seems to be badly lacking. This definition must 
hold valid
for the entire gEDA suite. Otherwise an integration of any kind is 
doomed to fail.


Looking at this I recall a statement about file-format evolvement:
"...the file format must stay backwards compatible." - I dare to negate 
this:
All the files I encountered but the netlist have a version specifier as 
their 1st line.

It is sufficient to adhere to this feature. All other characteristics can be
changed and some should.

A good idea to me is to adherere to the JSON syntax definition for future
exchange formats.  http://www.json.org/
For netlists one might consider : instead of -.

Regards, Armin

Stefan Salewski wrote:

On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 11:57 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:

  

You may try including this line "skip-m4" in your project.txt file to
ignore m4 files and problems with minus sign in footprint file names.
This works, because recent PCB program has copies of all old m4
footprints in newlib format. But it works not perfect, there is some
trouble with naming of footprint files. So it may be better to rename
your files, replacing the "-".




Ahh -- in your schematic you have footprint names like

footprint=RADIAL_CAN 200

with spaces in name, I think this is calling the m4 macro processor.
So "skip-m4" will not work! But at the same time you are using
pcb-symbols-jcl_2008-4-25 and your own containing the problematic minus
sign in file name. 


I think I have to rename all of them, including John Luciani's.




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Bert Timmerman
Hi,

It would be nice to have a "revert" or "reload file" function in the gattrib
pulldown menu and/or have keystroke.

With said feature one would be able to swap more easily between gschem and
gattrib when a lot of attributes need to be set/changed (of course updating
the file in the process).

Just my EUR 0.02

Kind regards,

Bert Timmerman.

> -Original Message-
> From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org 
> [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: gEDA user mailing list
> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols
> 
> Not because of the bugs I ran into but since choosing a 
> footprint is a difficult process in it self I was longing for 
> a footprint browser.
> The easiest place to start a clean implementation may be 
> gattrib, that I found conventient to duplicate footprint 
> choices, once one has been assigned gschem.
> However, the best overview of what is what and therefore 
> choose the right footprint is probably gschem. With gschem 
> open, gattrib should work however, if one remembers, that 
> gschem is in "read only" then.
> 
> The problem could be split out of gschem, if it were better 
> supported, to assign a physical part to the symbol. This will 
> probably help other tools too, since e.g. a Spice model is 
> tied to a part, not to a bunch of lines with pins (symbol).
> I first thought "device" were the thing to use, but in the 
> standard library it's occupied by names like 
> CAPACITOR_POLARIZED which says noting about rated voltage or 
> ESR. Any ideas?
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> Matthew Wilkins wrote:
> > It seems like there is room to add a footprint selector 
> utility that
> > would interface between gschem/gattrib and PCB without impacting
> > non-PCB users in any way.  In fact if PCB had an HID 
> where it just
> > starts up as a footprint browser and nothing else, you 
> could use PCB
> > itself to assign footprints to symbols from within 
> gschem or gattrib.
> > An option in the gschem config file could allow  users 
> to define a
> > command line to start PCB in that mode, and PCB would output the
> > selected footprint attribute value before exiting.
> > Users of other workflows might be able to use a similar 
> type of browser
> > utility to work with other types of libraries  -- gnucap models?
> > verilog models?  I don't know if that would be useful or not...
> > Anyway, the point is that this type of feature can be 
> added and could
> > be be completely invisible to other workflows, unless 
> they want to use
> > it.
> > --- On Fri, 4/16/10, DJ Delorie  wrote:
> >
> >   From: DJ Delorie 
> >   Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols
> >   To: "gEDA user mailing list" 
> >   Received: Friday, April 16, 2010, 6:16 PM
> >
> > > Perhaps the shortcoming is in your expectations.
> > I think that (1) our tools are mature enough that users 
> should expect
> > *some* sort of seamless integration and co-operation 
> between them, and
> > (2) we're mature enough to not have to insult our users when our
> > software acts in an unexpected way.
> > > The two projects are able to work together *because* they were
> > > intentionally designed with clean interfaces,
> > Irrelevent.  Having clean interfaces doesn't preclude 
> using those
> > interfaces in a seamless manner, giving the impression 
> of integration.
> > > One thing that sows confusion here is that 
> "footprint" has different
> > > meanings
> > Hence the Terminology chaper in the Getting Started guide, which
> > defines what PCB means by footprint:
> > ``A footprint is the pattern on a circuit board to 
> which your parts
> >are attached. This includes all copper, silk, solder 
> mask, and
> >paste information. In other EDA programs, this may 
> be referred to
> >as a "land pattern". "Footprint" sometimes is used 
> to refer to a
> >footprint file. "Footprint" refers to the pattern; 
> "element" refers
> >to the instance. For example, your layout might have 
> four elements
> >that use one footprint.''
> > If you're talking about PCB, please stick with PCB's 
> meanings of the
> > terms.
> > > And some design flows don't have footprints (VLSI, simulation,
> > > symbolic analysis, ...), although perhaps the hydraulic design
> > > process recently discussed here has something analogous ;-)
> > And some programs aren't EDA programs, but that doesn't 
> help with his
> > problem.
> > > Ugh! Yuck! IDE = Inflexible, Dumbed-down Environment. 
> Some prefer
> > > that, but shouldn't there remain toolkits for those 
> of us who need
> > > flexibility and high productivity automation?
> > Please stop trying to push your personal flow onto others :-)
> > Despite you pushing your personal way of d

Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Stefan Salewski
On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 13:10 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 12:37 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I think I have to rename all of them, including John Luciani's.
> > 
> > 
> 
> You have components in your schematic named Rf and Cf without numbers.
> These seems to have no connection in the netlist.
> The missing number in refdes seems to be a problem.
> 
> 

OK, seems to be all fixed now, see

http://www.ssalewski.de/tmp/armin20100417.tar


refdes without a digit at the end of the name seems to be indeed a big
problem, I am not sure if this is stated at a prominent location in the
gEDA/PCB documentation?

Minus signs in footprint names can be a problem, this should be well
known for people reading this list. But I do not know if this was indeed
a problem for your current design, I am too lazy to rename all back to
minus signs now.

Best regards

Stefan




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Stefan Salewski
On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 12:37 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:

> 
> I think I have to rename all of them, including John Luciani's.
> 
> 

You have components in your schematic named Rf and Cf without numbers.
These seems to have no connection in the netlist.
The missing number in refdes seems to be a problem.




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Stefan Salewski
On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 11:57 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:

> 
> You may try including this line "skip-m4" in your project.txt file to
> ignore m4 files and problems with minus sign in footprint file names.
> This works, because recent PCB program has copies of all old m4
> footprints in newlib format. But it works not perfect, there is some
> trouble with naming of footprint files. So it may be better to rename
> your files, replacing the "-".
> 

Ahh -- in your schematic you have footprint names like

footprint=RADIAL_CAN 200

with spaces in name, I think this is calling the m4 macro processor.
So "skip-m4" will not work! But at the same time you are using
pcb-symbols-jcl_2008-4-25 and your own containing the problematic minus
sign in file name. 

I think I have to rename all of them, including John Luciani's.




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Re: gEDA-user: input/output ports gschem

2010-04-17 Thread Armin Faltl

DO-41.fp is a footprint of the Luciani-collection as well.

Armin Faltl wrote:

As Stefan Salewski reported, I missed in my attachments:

RES-1016-630-240.fp -> RES-1016P-630L-240D__Yageo-MFR-25.fp

is a symbolic link I made to a Luciani footprint.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Armin



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Re: gEDA-user: input/output ports gschem

2010-04-17 Thread Armin Faltl

As Stefan Salewski reported, I missed in my attachments:

RES-1016-630-240.fp -> RES-1016P-630L-240D__Yageo-MFR-25.fp

is a symbolic link I made to a Luciani footprint.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Armin

Armin Faltl wrote:

Hi,

I'm new in this group but here because I seek help to fight bugs.

To implement a feature, that has to be understood by several
converters and ev. pcb is by no means simple. In particular
the effort to save someone typing ":1" by creating a special case
is much better spent for getting the basics in pcb right.


So, now I know how to do it. BUT I feel like gschem could consider
net=SIGNALX to be an implicit form of net=SIGNALX:1 since specifying a
pin in a one pin symbol doesn't make much sense to me. I think this is a
very simple feature to implement. Would be great if it does so
I ask/challenge everyone on the list to point out to me, what's wrong 
with my schematic
attached - I think nothing. Hopefully it triggers a bug with your 
installations as well.
The culprites it was indicated to me might be bad symbols from gschem 
- that would
be capacitor-1.sym and resistor-2.sym then - hardly used by anyone I 
suppose.

The problem appears in the ratsnet optimizer - it's the
  "Can't find XXX pin N called for in netlist."-bug

Here my analysis so far, in the hope that it is useful:

the symbol I use is "capacitor-1.sym" from the standard library.
I checked it's contents and it has 2 pins named "1" and "2".
There is also another "capacitor-1.sym" in
/usr/share/gEDA/sym/gnetman/capacitor-1.sym, however,
the symbol information is passed to pcb only via the netlist,
the generated board-file and the command-file - no explicit
mention of a symbol is made in them, as opposed to the schematic,
where the symbol files are referenced.

After trying 3 different footprints: yours, a self-drawn and one
from the m4-collection, all with the same result I'm desparate.
I checked the pins 1 by 1 in the files, clearly not my primary intention.

There are two another good reasons to believe, that pcb is
fundamentaly broken:
a) the same resistor symbol and footprint combo has 2 instances
 that work in the board and 1 instance, that doesn't
b) when invoking the rat-optimizer, the log-messages complain about
 missing pins, thats names do not match to the net-pinnames, while
 the netlister shows the pins correctly
 - when I route a copper trace that is not found by the rats
 (disabling the auto-drc), and call the rats optizer again,
 I get a warning, that pin hugo-1 is shorted to some_net
 while in the netlister some_net cleary lists hugo-1.
 In the rats there is a "Can't find hu pin 1 called for..." instead.

This is an indication of redundant datastructures and buggy mapping.

*end analysis*

It would be intelligent btw, to mention the netname on which the missing
pin appears in the log output, to aid debugging - either of pcb or the 
schematic.


Best Regards, Armin Faltl




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Stefan Salewski
On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 01:48 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-04-17 at 01:15 +0200, Armin Faltl wrote:
> 
> > use ;-)
> > 
> > Did anyone try my schematic posted in  
> > http://www.seul.org/pipermail/geda-user/2010-April/046716.html
> > - is the problem reproducable?
> > 
> 
> I missed your problem, sorry.
> 
> One remark: You used the minus sign "-" in your footprint names. This
> can give trouble in rare cases due to m4 macro expansion.
> 
> You may try renaming the footprint files, underscore character "_"
> should work fine.

OK, here are the results of closer inspection:

I put your files in directory armin:

ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ ls -1
Hauptplatine_v1.pcb
Hauptplatine_v1.sch
cap_2.5-5x11-hor.fp
cap_3.5-8x11-hor.fp
capr_508.fp
coil_manual_R16.fp
gafrc
irf7413-2.sym
ltc1625-1.sym
project.txt
ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $


To make the symbols in this directory visible to gschem and friends we
need this line in gafrc file:
 
ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ cat gafrc 

(component-library ".")

And we may need the "elements-dir ." to show gsch2pcb that we have
footprints in current directory. (Of course we should use dedicated
directories for symbols and footprints later...)

ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ cat project.txt 
schematics Hauptplatine_v1.sch
output-name Hauptplatine_v1

elements-dir .

ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ gsch2pcb project.txt 
=
gsch2pcb backend configuration:

   
   Variables which may be changed in gafrc:
   
   gsch2pcb:pcb-m4-command:/usr/bin/m4
   gsch2pcb:pcb-m4-dir:/usr/share/pcb/m4
   gsch2pcb:pcb-m4-confdir:/etc/pcb
   gsch2pcb:pcb-m4-path:   /usr/share/pcb/m4  /etc/pcb
$HOME/.pcb  .
   gsch2pcb:m4-command-line:   /usr/bin/m4 -d  -I/usr/share/pcb/m4
-I/etc/pcb -I$HOME/.pcb -I. /usr/share/pcb/m4/common.m4 - >>
Hauptplatine_v1.new.pcb

   ---
   Variables which may be changed in the project file:
   ---
   gsch2pcb:use-m4:yes

=
Using the m4 processor for pcb footprints
Rf: can't find PCB element for footprint RES-1016-630-240.fp
(value=4.7R)
So device Rf will not be in the layout.
R1: can't find PCB element for footprint RES-1016-630-240.fp
(value=3.92k_1%)
So device R1 will not be in the layout.
R2: can't find PCB element for footprint RES-1016-630-240.fp
(value=35.7k_1%)
So device R2 will not be in the layout.
C_Vcc: can't find PCB element for footprint
CAPPR-200P-500D-1100L-50d__Nichicon (value=4.7u)
So device C_Vcc will not be in the layout.
Db: can't find PCB element for footprint DO-41.fp (value=unknown)
So device Db will not be in the layout.

--
Done processing.  Work performed:
5 file elements and 3 m4 elements added to Hauptplatine_v1.new.pcb.
5 elements could not be found.  So Hauptplatine_v1.new.pcb is
incomplete.

Next steps:
1.  Run pcb on your file Hauptplatine_v1.pcb.
2.  From within PCB, select "File -> Load layout data to paste buffer"
and select Hauptplatine_v1.new.pcb to load the new footprints into
your existing layout.
3.  From within PCB, select "File -> Load netlist file" and select 
Hauptplatine_v1.net to load the updated netlist.

4.  From within PCB, enter

   :ExecuteFile(Hauptplatine_v1.cmd)

to update the pin names of all footprints.

ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ 
ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ locate -i RES-1016-630
ste...@amd64x2 ~/armin $ 

Seems that footptints files are missing on my box, so it is difficult to
do further testing. Maybe this already helps.

You may try including this line "skip-m4" in your project.txt file to
ignore m4 files and problems with minus sign in footprint file names.
This works, because recent PCB program has copies of all old m4
footprints in newlib format. But it works not perfect, there is some
trouble with naming of footprint files. So it may be better to rename
your files, replacing the "-".

Best regards

Stefan Salewski
 




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Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols

2010-04-17 Thread Armin Faltl

Not because of the bugs I ran into but since choosing a footprint is
a difficult process in it self I was longing for a footprint browser.
The easiest place to start a clean implementation may be gattrib,
that I found conventient to duplicate footprint choices, once one
has been assigned gschem.
However, the best overview of what is what and therefore choose the
right footprint is probably gschem. With gschem open, gattrib should
work however, if one remembers, that gschem is in "read only" then.

The problem could be split out of gschem, if it were better supported,
to assign a physical part to the symbol. This will probably help other
tools too, since e.g. a Spice model is tied to a part, not to a bunch
of lines with pins (symbol).
I first thought "device" were the thing to use, but in the standard
library it's occupied by names like CAPACITOR_POLARIZED which says
noting about rated voltage or ESR. Any ideas?

Just my 2 cents

Matthew Wilkins wrote:

It seems like there is room to add a footprint selector utility that
would interface between gschem/gattrib and PCB without impacting
non-PCB users in any way.  In fact if PCB had an HID where it just
starts up as a footprint browser and nothing else, you could use PCB
itself to assign footprints to symbols from within gschem or gattrib.
An option in the gschem config file could allow  users to define a
command line to start PCB in that mode, and PCB would output the
selected footprint attribute value before exiting.
Users of other workflows might be able to use a similar type of browser
utility to work with other types of libraries  -- gnucap models?
verilog models?  I don't know if that would be useful or not...
Anyway, the point is that this type of feature can be added and could
be be completely invisible to other workflows, unless they want to use
it.
--- On Fri, 4/16/10, DJ Delorie  wrote:

  From: DJ Delorie 
  Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols
  To: "gEDA user mailing list" 
  Received: Friday, April 16, 2010, 6:16 PM

> Perhaps the shortcoming is in your expectations.
I think that (1) our tools are mature enough that users should expect
*some* sort of seamless integration and co-operation between them, and
(2) we're mature enough to not have to insult our users when our
software acts in an unexpected way.
> The two projects are able to work together *because* they were
> intentionally designed with clean interfaces,
Irrelevent.  Having clean interfaces doesn't preclude using those
interfaces in a seamless manner, giving the impression of integration.
> One thing that sows confusion here is that "footprint" has different
> meanings
Hence the Terminology chaper in the Getting Started guide, which
defines what PCB means by footprint:
``A footprint is the pattern on a circuit board to which your parts
   are attached. This includes all copper, silk, solder mask, and
   paste information. In other EDA programs, this may be referred to
   as a "land pattern". "Footprint" sometimes is used to refer to a
   footprint file. "Footprint" refers to the pattern; "element" refers
   to the instance. For example, your layout might have four elements
   that use one footprint.''
If you're talking about PCB, please stick with PCB's meanings of the
terms.
> And some design flows don't have footprints (VLSI, simulation,
> symbolic analysis, ...), although perhaps the hydraulic design
> process recently discussed here has something analogous ;-)
And some programs aren't EDA programs, but that doesn't help with his
problem.
> Ugh! Yuck! IDE = Inflexible, Dumbed-down Environment. Some prefer
> that, but shouldn't there remain toolkits for those of us who need
> flexibility and high productivity automation?
Please stop trying to push your personal flow onto others :-)
Despite you pushing your personal way of doing things (very vocally, I
might add), a clear majority (not "some") of the geda users DO want a
simple schematic -> pcb flow that's well integrated and easy to use.
Your personal choice is *not it*.  Yes, we want to make your flow
*possible*, but we really need to make the "dumbed-down" environment
easy to use and streamlined, because that's what most people want.
> The commercial package owners have a strong incentive to restrict
> the flow to tools they control, and make it easy to get sucked into
> their environments. They have little incentive to give you paths to
> flexibility or higher productivity once you're caught.
Flexibility and ease of use should not preclude each other.
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References

   1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to

Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL crashes (workaround)

2010-04-17 Thread kai-martin knaak
Peter Clifton wrote:

> As a workaround for now, apply this bandaid in
> src/hid/gtk/gui-output-events.c

No crashes ever since :-)

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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