gEDA-user: up-to-date apt repository
I vaguely recall someone having a repository containing the bleeding edge of the gEDA suite. Does such a beast exist? -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: help with compiling gedagaf-1.6.1, gcc4.4.2, gtk-2.18.9
On Tuesday 10 August 2010 21:14:57 Peter TB Brett wrote: On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:15:33 +0100, sibu xolo sib...@btconnect.com wrote: Making all in src make[3]: Entering directory `$SOURCES/geda-gaf-1.6.1/libgeda/src' /bin/sh ../../libtool --silent --tag=CC --mode=compile g++ -m64 -fPIC - It looks like you're compiling with g++. This doesn't seem right to me... Peter I had not read configure help closely and had an erroneous line in my configure with CXX=g++ -m64 -fPIC After removing it, the stuff (released and from GIT) compiles flawlessly. --tests: results gedagaf-1.6.1 46 tests passed 0 test failed gedagaf from GIT 45 test pased 2 failed -- Thanks very much for the help ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
DJ Delorie wrote: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/hdd_clock/ Note that the top layer is missing a chunk near C2. It seems to have placed it rotated 180 degrees around that pin. It's OK in postscript and gui It's BAD in gerber and png Hmm. I fail to see the problem on the png on your web site. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
I attended a trade show/info-mercial to do with printed circuit layout and manufacture yesterday to meet some people to ask for contract work and heard about Mentor CAD tools and overall trends we should pay attention to in planning additions to gEDA tools. A speaker named Tom Hausherr described how he had developed a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau, then sold the library as a business for a while, then sold that business, and started designing software for Mentor to auto-generate libraries, and lead creation the templates to auto-generate from. Mentor has made a tool that will generate variants of a library of footprints to suit IPC or IEC or EIA standards with your preferences of Most, nominal, Least, least, or user specified different from standards amount of solder area for pads, courtyard extra manufacturing allowance, preferences about assembly drawing layers, etc. The tool also relates package 3d shape to footprint per IPC or other standards rules so you can change existing package data to create a new one with similar but different shape quickly -- one view is a plan and elevation of a package, the other is footprint and fill forms that change it via preferences that are relative to the chosen land pattern standard. They market this to freelance layout folks as helping them with career mobility, and to big Co's as efficient. Their next thing planned is to not even have the tool show a plan and elevation, but import 3d DXF, (autocad interchange format), data to filter through preferences and generate a land pattern. Another thing I heard about is the trend to use metric units. Tom H. has lots of experience with doing boards, still does some and was helping with layout of the Red Camera circuit board where they had customers wanting it bad right after the design was simulated to work, but not laid out, so they tried autorouting it and no go until they chose a grid based on 0.05mm spacings. That spacing rule combined with the predominant parts available today let the autorouter work best on that board routing between 1000+ BGA pins among other circuit parts with ten routing layers. PCB already handles 0.05mm spacings fairly well -- might have some rounding artifacts, but not ones that will stop good autorouting that I know of. I've not tried using the autorouter or toporouter with more than 2 layers yet... Anyone? The trend of asking for 3D DXF files from all the manufacturers is something to ponder when anyone gets a coding urge. From such data, ALL that is needed to make a land pattern is extractable, including the website link it comes from, and possibly other BOM data, and it is becoming a defacto standard (which is the way all electronics standards have started). John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Hi John, I was working on a dxf exporter for pcb. Recently did a couple of steps converting this into a pcb plugin for exporting dxf stuff, and maybe importing a pcb outline from mechanical CAD. Problem with dxf is that it doesn't support 3D shapes in a usable way, this remains bound to AutoCAD for further processing. Furthermore I started a pcb footprint wizard in GTK (an open source look-a-like version of Tom's stuff). And had some thoughts about a BGA fanout utility (gfanout) and some automation of adding pinout labels in pcb footprints or gschem symbols or what usage I can further think of (gpinout). Oh, and I bundled some pcb plug-ins. All to be found at http://www:github.com/bert Most of these projects are half baked, you (both the lists) are all invited to bake the other half. This because my spare time is becoming sparse time Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
Hmm. I fail to see the problem on the png on your web site. Well, I didn't stop working just because of that one bug. Download the bad-poly.pcb linked on the page. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: adding new components
Hello! I'm pretty new to gEDA, at first I'm not able to locate bc212 in the components list, regarding this I have some questions: How can I create custom components (e.g. bc212)? I found the components in /usr/share/gEDA/sym, but at first sight it isn't obvious how can I create a file appropriate for a given component. Is there a howto about it? And finally, if I manage to create a sym file for a component, where can I submit it so that the future wersions could conatin it? fyi I use Ubuntu 10.04 Thanks for your answers in advance. -- With regards: Imre Péntek E-Mail: pentek.i...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: adding new components
hello i just started a few weeks ago... learning curve is a bit steep at start, but it's quite logic after some learning-by-doing. creating symbols is a very good step! howto: http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gschem_symbol_creation contributing and lots of external symbols for you to use: http://www.gedasymbols.org/ hth :) -- Kind regards, Stefan Tauner ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 09:33:30PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/hdd_clock/ Note that the top layer is missing a chunk near C2. It seems to have placed it rotated 180 degrees around that pin. Ahh it would have been nice if you'd mentioned the PNGs aren't showing that problem on the web page! It's OK in postscript and gui It's BAD in gerber and png That's an odd combo. PS, most flavors of GUI and gerber use the dicer to draw polygons, while PNG can use erasure, which might explain something. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: adding new components
Hello again, I read the doc at http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gschem_symbol_creation, and I cannot tell whether sym files contain any component-type specific parameters (e.g. Hfe for a transistor). But to ask this question more generally: is gschem (and friends) capable of simulating the circuit and pcb designing? -- With regards: Imre Péntek E-Mail: pentek.i...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: adding new components
On Aug 11, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Imre Péntek wrote: Hello again, I read the doc at http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gschem_symbol_creation, and I cannot tell whether sym files contain any component-type specific parameters (e.g. Hfe for a transistor). But to ask this question more generally: is gschem (and friends) capable of simulating the circuit and pcb designing? See http://www.brorson.com/gEDA/SPICE/intro.html. Note that schematics intended for pcb layout are generally difficult to simulate, and schematics intended for simulation are generally not suitable for pcb layout. For simulation of a transistor, you will need to obtain a file of model parameters from some other source, typically the manufacturer. Most model parameter files are licensed under terms that prevent redistribution, so they cannot be distributed with gEDA. These limitations are not specific to gEDA, but apply to other EDA packages as well. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
Ahh it would have been nice if you'd mentioned the PNGs aren't showing that problem on the web page! Well, it *was* at the time I sent the email. Only later did I realize that a newer version suddenly worked, and panicked to find an older backup of the .pcb that still had the problem. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: pcb: solder paste stencil layers and QFNs
I sent off some Gerber files from pcb today for fabrication and discovered no easy way to generate solder paste Gerbers with reduced-size apertures for things like the exposed die-attach pads on QFN packages. (There's a Freescale app note at [1]http://cache.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/app_note/AN3111.pdf describing some of the issues which can result from too much paste.) I've developed a patch for pcb which adds a new shrinkpaste flag for pads. Setting this flag on a pad causes the pad to be changed to a square pad with an area of 40% of the original pad area during stencil-layer rendering. If anyone else would find this patch useful (or if I missed something really obvious), please let me know... -Andrew -- Andrew Armenia Ultradian Diagnostics LLC Rensselaer, NY 12144 [2]www.ultradian.com References 1. http://cache.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc/app_note/AN3111.pdf 2. http://www.ultradian.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: solder paste stencil layers and QFNs
For QFN exposed pads, do this... Make a pad for each paste spot Add one big pad with the nopaste flag that covers them all That way you can control the paste separately from the copper ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Bourns 3386P footprint
David Griffith wrote: I think I got it right, but would someone please double-check this footprint for a Bourns 3386P trimpot for me? See http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/david_griffith/footprints/POT_BOURNS_3386P.fp * The position of pins looks ok. Their numbers differ from the numbers in the data sheet. Is this deliberate? * I'd make the annular ring larger to facilitate manual soldering. 80 mils seems like a decent size to me. If the annular ring is a handicap for the layout, they con be shrunken as needed. * The outline of your footprint is a bit larger than the real component. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
DJ Delorie wrote: Hmm. I fail to see the problem on the png on your web site. Well, I didn't stop working just because of that one bug. Download the bad-poly.pcb linked on the page. I don't see any faults in the gerbers of this pcb, either. http://lilalaser.de/tmp/Screenshot-gerbv_hddclock.png ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: up-to-date apt repository
David Griffith wrote: I vaguely recall someone having a repository containing the bleeding edge of the gEDA suite. Does such a beast exist? Well, bleeding edge of pcb Peter Cliftons OpenGL enables version. I don't think, this has been packaged anywhere. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
Hmm. I fail to see the problem on the png on your web site. Well, I didn't stop working just because of that one bug. Download the bad-poly.pcb linked on the page. I put screenshots of pcb, png, and gerbers on the page. http://www.delorie.com/electronics/hdd_clock/ pcb 1.99z as of June 14th ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
hdd_clock.pcb is the good one. bad-poly.pcb is the broken one. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 05:42:10PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: I put screenshots of pcb, png, and gerbers on the page. http://www.delorie.com/electronics/hdd_clock/ pcb 1.99z as of June 14th The area around C2 is a second-order effect. The glitch is where the pulled traces go around the IC pins just below C2. The rectangular hole is the result of the dicer cutting through the middle of a pin (could have been any of the pins at that grid point) vertically. That slice got messed up because of the glitch by the IC. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
Is this the same glitch we've seen before, or a new one? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
The glitch is where the pulled traces go around the IC pins just below C2. Actually, that's a toporouter board, not a pulled board. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: need polygon expert again
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 06:26:06PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Is this the same glitch we've seen before, or a new one? I'm sure it's related to previous glitches in the sense that clearing oddly angled/shaped regions sometimes results in problems. I'd have to single step through the clearance to find the bad poly-sub operation and then go back and single-step through that one. Maybe we need a debug HID. ;-) -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at [1]http://wikicomponents.com The worlds first and only truly open source for 2D and 3D PCB component package, part and electrical device data. I did point out to them that [2]http://gedasymbols.org , was around for a while, which not really my point here. I corresponded with Dino Ditta, the person behind the site, when it first opened. There were some ambiguities about the terms of use, as far as being Open Source friendly, and he said that was his intention, and that he would clean up the ambiguities. Don't know if he did that. He was open to having KiCAD and PCB symbols posted there. Maybe we could get behind his 3D effort rather than DXF? Last I looked there were a lot of part numbers, with nothing to back them up, which I did complain about to Dino, don't know if he fixed that. Frustrating to spend time searching the list for it to lead to nothing. -- [3]http://blog.softwaresafety.net/ [4]http://www.designer-iii.com/ [5]http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ References 1. http://wikicomponents.com/ 2. http://gedasymbols.org/ 3. http://blog.softwaresafety.net/ 4. http://www.designer-iii.com/ 5. http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Bob Paddock wrote: a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at http://wikicomponents.com The site requires registration even for simple reading. :-| ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Bourns 3386P footprint
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, kai-martin knaak wrote: David Griffith wrote: I think I got it right, but would someone please double-check this footprint for a Bourns 3386P trimpot for me? See http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/david_griffith/footprints/POT_BOURNS_3386P.fp * The position of pins looks ok. Their numbers differ from the numbers in the data sheet. Is this deliberate? Yes, I think I flipped 1 and 3 by accident. * I'd make the annular ring larger to facilitate manual soldering. 80 mils seems like a decent size to me. If the annular ring is a handicap for the layout, they con be shrunken as needed. Okay, a few presses of 'S'... * The outline of your footprint is a bit larger than the real component. I just crudely rounded up to the nearest 0.05. How does it look now? -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: seeking am/fm tuning caps
I just discovered that Ocean State Electronics went out of business, leaving me without a source for my favorite AM/FM tuning capacitors. For instance, this one: http://web.archive.org/web/20080224154332/http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p98.htm for which I have a footprint here: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/david_griffith/footprints/CAP__BC88-B540.fp Does anyone know where I can get something similar? Most of the tuning caps I find are air-variable for AM only. -- David Griffith dgri...@cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:25 PM, kai-martin knaak [1]...@familieknaak.de wrote: Bob Paddock wrote: a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at [2]http://wikicomponents.com The site requires registration even for simple reading. :-| Yeah, I complained about that too. Sorry that I forgot to mention it. References 1. mailto:k...@familieknaak.de 2. http://wikicomponents.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
IPC land pattern wizard in protel/altium is very nice as well. So nice infact I've been using it for BGA and many-pin count packages and then exporting to ascii format which my current EDA package can import. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Bob Paddock bob.padd...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:25 PM, kai-martin knaak [1]...@familieknaak.de wrote: Bob Paddock wrote: a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at [2]http://wikicomponents.com The site requires registration even for simple reading. :-| Yeah, I complained about that too. Sorry that I forgot to mention it. References 1. mailto:k...@familieknaak.de 2. http://wikicomponents.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: solder paste stencil layers and QFNs
Somehow I knew there was an obvious easier way, but I got impatient. Though I suspect writing my patch took about as long as modifying all the footprints by hand or writing a script would have, splitting up the paste is preferable anyway. Next time, perhaps it'll be a script doing that. Maybe this is similarly obvious, but I suppose it bears repeating that all of the paste spot pads should have the same name as the big pad, to prevent spurious rats-nest warnings from cropping up. -Andrew On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:07 PM, DJ Delorie [1...@delorie.com wrote: For QFN exposed pads, do this... Make a pad for each paste spot Add one big pad with the nopaste flag that covers them all That way you can control the paste separately from the copper ___ geda-user mailing list [2]geda-u...@moria.seul.org [3]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:d...@delorie.com 2. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 3. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Aug 11, 2010, at 12:28 PM, John Griessen wrote; What's a good reference about DXF? Arghhh... I've spent a bit of time trying to read .dxf correctly. My first shot was for reading .dxf to drive a simple laser cutter that used bastardized HP/GL. I did an ad hoc parser in C after reading Autocad's online documentation, and only attempted to pull out the fraction of the information that interested me. Let's just say I recommend against that approach. ;) My next version of the laser cutter CAM used the Ribbonsoft's dxflib (GPL). dxflib is C++ and is actually a pretty reasonable interface for reading dxf and is very robust. Writing dxf with it requires a pretty good knowledge of the structure of dxf, but reading is straightforward. About that... the structure of dxf... Imagine a design committee consisting entirely of passive-aggressive, 'B' ark chimpanzees that were only convinced to join the project for the meeting donuts. Now imagine the file format they would specify. Now imagine that file format evolved to support things that were never originally intended. That is dxf. I am now working on a new project -- with the intent of reading 2D dxf and producing real, proper, good-to-go, CNC machine g-code that doesn't crash the milling machine or break tools. Wish me luck. (Or volunteer to help??? :) Anyway, I'm doing the project in Python, and after looking for a good dxf reader in Python, briefly considered putting a Python wrapper around dxflib. But that is not a great fit... it's hard to make a Pythonic interface to dxf around dxflib. So... I decided to commit the cardinal sin of all programmers, writing my own library... I can get away with that since there is no one to fire me for such a silly decision. And now I finally get to the point of this rambling e-mail. Since what I want is 100% interoperability with QCad (from Ribbonsoft, uses dxflib for file I/O), I concluded that reading the dxflib code very carefully is about the best dxf file documentation that is around. Autodesk has a lot of online documentation of the file format, and that is indispensable. dxf comes in several versions, and each is documented separately. The documentation that exists on the Autocad web site is reasonably well organized once you learn to navigate it. Be aware, however, that certain 3D entities are *not* documented, they are binary blobs and you can only get the spec by paying for a license from Autocad and signing an NDA. So no open source dxf library will ever be able to handle all of dxf. My immediate goal is to write a library that can make sense of all 2D information in a complete and coherent way, provide a Pythonic interface for reading and writing dxf, and gracefully ignore or perhaps read-and-blobify anything it doesn't understand without crashing or hanging. The not-crashing-and-hanging part will put it ahead of at least some commercial alternatives. HTH If you are interested in talking about my Python dxf I/O lib we should take that off-list. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
