Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:39:40 -0600 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: On Oct 31, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: Then, there are many people which know cp xxx yyy, but prefer to avoid it anyways. You want to catch these. You don't want to dumb down the toolkit [...] gEDA is the toolkit for *experts* doing *great* things *now*. Let's not lose that. One size does not fit all here. Ok... Sorry, John, but I have to stop you right there, as you are completely missing the point. To clarify Markus' example somewhat: I don't want to have to fire up a terminal every time I want to copy some random file to/from a thumbdrive, memory card, etc. Sometimes, I'd rather just plug the damn thing in and let a file manager pop up so that I can handle it from there. It isn't because I can't, it's because I don't *want* to. On the other hand, I use a simple script that uses rsync to back up a few important partitions and directories and take logs of the activity, which is best run from a command line, because for that particular case, it is the right tool for the job. rant mode=on To bring this back into context, I am by no means an expert in electronics or programming, but I am reasonably good at the few things I do with gEDA and PCB, at least so say the other folks who are in my particular field. Your implication here is that these tools are and should be reserved only for experts, which is akin to saying that everyone else should basically just uninstall their copies of these programs and get out of the way, even if the intent is to help improve the project. Um, no. In the old days it was common, if not *expected*, for a person to first draw his or her schematic on paper and then lay out a board on one or another physical media prior to etching. Hell some people *still* do it this way if it is more convenient to do so. What we didn't have back then was an easy way to do circuit simulation - you did your truth tables and math on paper, built a prototype on plugboard, and then prayed that it passed the initial smoke test when you switched it on. Now we have easy to use systems to allow one to design a schematic and ensure that the board created from it is at least electrically identical, so far as the copper is concerned anyway. We just need the equivalent for circuit simulation. Some reasonably good GUI tools already exist for this (Xcircuit, QUCS), they're just not part of (or compatible with) the gEDA suite. Just because one is doing this on a computer instead of paper does NOT mean one should be forced to use the command line to do it. Computers are supposed to make things easier for people, and allow them to be more productive; that's what they were created for. If introducing a computer to a user's workflow doesn't improve his or her productivity, then either the computer is simply the wrong tool altogether, or the person responsible for the software therein is the one who is at fault. In the commercial world, if the software were the problem, one would of course blame the admin for installing ineffective programs, or the programmer(s) for failing to understand what users really need. I hesitate to make that claim against gEDA, since it is a *very* effective tool set, and the need for improvement is clearly recognized (or we wouldn't be discussing this). The existence of a GUI does not have to preclude the use of equivalent command-line utilities. /rant -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Any outstanding gaf patches?
Hi folks, I've just briefly trawled through the patch bug trackers for gaf, and committed a bunch of sensible-looking patches. If you've got any patches that haven't yet been dealt with, and you think should have been, please: (1) Make sure they've been submitted to the SF.net patch tracker: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=161080atid=818428 (2) Reply to this thread and complain at me for not having dealt with them sooner. :-) I added a bug for gschem report and a patch (3100680) that should fix it. The bug causes cropping bitmap output from gschem under certain circumstances. Wojciech Kazubski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Any outstanding gaf patches?
On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:50:48 +0100, Wojciech Kazubski w...@o2.pl wrote: I added a bug for gschem report and a patch (3100680) that should fix it. The bug causes cropping bitmap output from gschem under certain circumstances. Yep, I've seen it, and it looks obviously correct. I'll commit it when I'm next at a computer with my SSH keys. Peter -- Peter Brett pe...@peter-b.co.uk Remote Sensing Research Group Surrey Space Centre ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Next step
If I wanted to do my own fab what CAM software would you recommend? -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY Linux, free software, for the people, by the people. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Enhancements for gEDA/pcb G-code export
A new set of patches is out, addressing all the suggestions here: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/? func=detailaid=3100354group_id=73743atid=538813 New patches make G-code output respecting the outline layer if available. Enhancements planned include milling this outline with an end mill and using that end mill to drill bigger holes by milling a small circle. While I tried, I couldn't find any code in pcb's sources which would produce an offset of the path in the outline layer with proper relimiting of the lines in respect to each other. I'd be glad if somebody can point me to such a function without introducing new dependencies. Else I'd have to restrict this outline milling to rectangles, as the route used for isolation milling is difficult to handle either. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
If I wanted to do my own fab what CAM software would you recommend? I do my own fab at home, and just use PCB. Is there something else you need besides that? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
On 11/01/2010 07:18 AM, Darryl Gibson wrote: If I wanted to do my own fab what CAM software would you recommend? None usually. Output postscript from pcb, then either make a toner transfer print with a laser printer, or print on clear film with an inkjet printer to make a mask for exposing photoresist with UV light before etching. Some guides are on delorie.com Else you're spending some capital equipment money to be in business and getting a UV photoplotter and CAM software I don't know about. Either way, gerbv is the tool for double checking your RS-274X output to send to a fab. John -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Nov 1, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:39:40 -0600 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: On Oct 31, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: Then, there are many people which know cp xxx yyy, but prefer to avoid it anyways. You want to catch these. You don't want to dumb down the toolkit [...] gEDA is the toolkit for *experts* doing *great* things *now*. Let's not lose that. One size does not fit all here. Ok... Sorry, John, but I have to stop you right there, as you are completely missing the point. To clarify Markus' example somewhat: I don't want to have to fire up a terminal every time I want to copy some random file to/from a thumbdrive, memory card, etc. Sometimes, I'd rather just plug the damn thing in and let a file manager pop up so that I can handle it from there. It isn't because I can't, it's because I don't *want* to. What you want doesn't matter. What the *job* needs is the thing that matters. On the other hand, I use a simple script that uses rsync to back up a few important partitions and directories and take logs of the activity, which is best run from a command line, because for that particular case, it is the right tool for the job. Indeed. But in fact, I bet if you did a time and motion study you'd find that typing commands is much faster than point and click. Point and click is a seductive time waster *except* for inherently graphical parts of the job. rant mode=on To bring this back into context, I am by no means an expert in electronics or programming, but I am reasonably good at the few things I do with gEDA and PCB, at least so say the other folks who are in my particular field. Your implication here is that these tools are and should be reserved only for experts, Absolutely not. However, there should exist tools that serve needs of experts. There are lots of tools out there that sacrifice productivity and flexibility for user comfort. I am tremendously grateful to Ales for creating a toolkit that can do what I *need* rather than what some marketer decided I would want. which is akin to saying that everyone else should basically just uninstall their copies of these programs and get out of the way, even if the intent is to help improve the project. I have a Jeep with a manual transmission and manual transfer case. Most drivers today would consider an automatic transmission and all wheel drive an improvement. But the manual controls enable me to drive through nasty conditions where more automatic vehicles get stuck (getting up my driveway is often the worst problem). I live high in the mountains, so this is important to me. It is a good thing that that the comfort of the majority did not dictate the design of this vehicle. Um, no. In the old days it was common, if not *expected*, for a person to first draw his or her schematic on paper and then lay out a board on one or another physical media prior to etching. Hell some people *still* do it this way if it is more convenient to do so. What we didn't have back then was an easy way to do circuit simulation - you did your truth tables and math on paper, built a prototype on plugboard, and then prayed that it passed the initial smoke test when you switched it on. Now we have easy to use systems to allow one to design a schematic and ensure that the board created from it is at least electrically identical, so far as the copper is concerned anyway. We just need the equivalent for circuit simulation. With gEDA, we already have that for chip design. I have the working silicon to prove it. And this is a place where gEDA's superior scriptability really shines: it's a *massive* waste of time to run a comprehensive series of simulations manually after changing something. Some reasonably good GUI tools already exist for this (Xcircuit, QUCS), they're just not part of (or compatible with) the gEDA suite. The most difficult problem here is outside of our control: obtaining models compatible with whatever simulator you prefer. But on my gedasymbols page you'll find some *simple* opamp models, and a bunch of symbols for my friend Professor Ikeda's Openip library of models for mixed-signal VLSI design. I know somebody who has used the Openip symbols and models as an aid for learning logic design. You don't, of course, actually need to go all of the way to silicon. The overloading of pinseq= is also troublesome for simulating slotted components, but fixing this requires no changes to the gEDA core: it's implemented in the spice and spice-sdb back ends. And one really cool thing here is that a gnetlist back end can generate symbolic equations for a circuit, so you can do things like find the ratio of RC time constants that give critical damping. Again, that's enormously more productive than tweaking a simulation. Where's the find critical damping condition button on your favorite GUI
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Nov 1, 2010, at 9:05 AM, John Doty wrote: Putting a GUI on non-graphical functions *almost always* torques the design away from effective scripting. You can claim this isn't necessarily so, but actual software designers aren't usually smart enough to avoid this trap. Agreed 100% This is why I cringe when the guys I write tests for ask for a GUI for the test. When all they want is a message box. and they could just read the big bold line on the terminal that says Pass or FAIL! :-) Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
John Griessen wrote: On 11/01/2010 07:18 AM, Darryl Gibson wrote: If I wanted to do my own fab what CAM software would you recommend? None usually. Output postscript from pcb, then either make a toner transfer print with a laser printer, or print on clear film with an inkjet printer to make a mask for exposing photoresist with UV light before etching. Some guides are on delorie.com Ok. Else you're spending some capital equipment money to be in business and getting a UV photoplotter and CAM software I don't know about. I'd like to mill, drill, stuff and solder by machine also, but for now I'm just concerned with milling and drilling. Either way, gerbv is the tool for double checking your RS-274X output to send to a fab. -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY Linux, free software, for the people, by the people. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On 11/01/2010 11:05 AM, John Doty wrote: Point and click is a seductive time waster*except* for inherently graphical parts of the job. A lot of layout is. Rearranging some sets of files' locations is faster by GUI than by commands, since whole swaths of files can be moved at once after a quick selection task done visually. (and no, regexp's would not help this.). JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
On 11/01/2010 12:20 PM, Darryl Gibson wrote: Yes, I'd like to mill, drill, stuff, and solder too, but for now I'm only worried about milling and drilling. We've not had anyone with a circuit mill talk here yet that I know. The EMC2 discussion list might be good for that. Also HeeksCAD might be able to create tool paths from layout in some form... You stumped us. John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: version control and non text files
As I use version control for projects, I often have datasheets in pdf form and images along with the data that compresses well in git. Does anyone know a good way to deal with such files? I'm thinking of making a script to move those files out of the git controlled directory and link to them and version control the links. Then I could work on a project, change the reference docs a few times updating git all along, and after the activity dies down, copy the files I settled on back into the git repos. and commit them. What do you do to avoid git repos bloat with changes of docs you are using in the early phases of a project? John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Nov 1, 2010, at 10:49 AM, John Griessen wrote: On 11/01/2010 11:05 AM, John Doty wrote: Point and click is a seductive time waster*except* for inherently graphical parts of the job. A lot of layout is. Rearranging some sets of files' locations is faster by GUI than by commands, since whole swaths of files can be moved at once after a quick selection task done visually. (and no, regexp's would not help this.). I like combining GUI and command line, select the files in the gui and drag to the terminal! JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Nov 1, 2010, at 11:49 AM, John Griessen wrote: On 11/01/2010 11:05 AM, John Doty wrote: Point and click is a seductive time waster*except* for inherently graphical parts of the job. A lot of layout is. Sure. That's a good use of GUI. But parts selection, assigning pin numbers, revision control, document generation, running simulations (as opposed to inspecting siumulation results), etc. are all fundamentally clerical tasks where a GUI gets in the way, especially if the job is outside the GUI designer's necessarily limited horizon. But there's lots of overlap. For example, gattrib is great for a little touch up of a few attributes, but for larger scale changes it is a time waster. Because gattrib is a separate tool communicating through a clean interface whose design it did not influence, it's also harmless. An integrated gattrib would be much more troublesome. Rearranging some sets of files' locations is faster by GUI than by commands, since whole swaths of files can be moved at once after a quick selection task done visually. I bet if you actually measured the time, you wouldn't find the selection as quick as you think. GUI's warp perception. They make things easy, not quick. (and no, regexp's would not help this.). They do for me. mv `ls | grep ...` wherever. But mostly I try not to get into a mess where there are large numbers of files in a directory. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On 11/01/2010 01:35 PM, John Doty wrote: (and no, regexp's would not help this.). They do for me. mv `ls | grep ...` wherever. But mostly I try not to get into a mess where there are large numbers of files in a directory. We're going to be doing things differently with our different approaches is all. And as PCB gets more ease of use features, you are still not going to be using it, and if you did, you could still script it and gschem and gnetlist as much. On 11/01/2010 01:35 PM, Steven Michalske wrote: I like combining GUI and command line, select the files in the gui and drag to the terminal! Sounds like a trick! Does that work with the GUI program known as GNOME Terminal? John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Nov 1, 2010, at 11:46 AM, John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: On 11/01/2010 01:35 PM, Steven Michalske wrote: I like combining GUI and command line, select the files in the gui and drag to the terminal! Sounds like a trick! Does that work with the GUI program known as GNOME Terminal? Mac OS Terminal, it worked in kde I recall I get all my favorite unix and GUI applications! John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: version control and non text files
John Griessen wrote: As I use version control for projects, I often have datasheets in pdf form and images along with the data that compresses well in git. Does anyone know a good way to deal with such files? It looks like git-submodule [1] may do what you want without the headache of symlinks and potentially broken history. Here's the git screencast [2]. thx, Jason. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/540535/managing-large-binary-files-with-git [2] http://blip.tv/file/4218925 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: version control and non text files
On 11/01/2010 01:10 PM, John Griessen wrote: What do you do to avoid git repos bloat with changes of docs you are using in the early phases of a project? I hit on something that I like. Here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/540535/managing-large-binary-files-with-git there's talk of using two git repos for your work. Then suggesting submodules. http://book.git-scm.com/5_submodules.html I'm thinking that with or without git submodules, I can make a link to a dir in my docs_datasheets_repo from my projects_repo for ease of using project datasheets, then commit them at a much less often rate than the main project. has anyone used git submodules? John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com writes: Rearranging some sets of files' locations is faster by GUI than by commands, since whole swaths of files can be moved at once after a quick selection task done visually. not, when I count the time for cleaning up after fat-fingering a mouse button during the operation, and the whole mess was dropped in the wrong place. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:05:17 -0600 John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: What you want doesn't matter. What the *job* needs is the thing that matters. Suppose the user can't get the job done *at all* without whatever feature is being proposed? That is the crux of my argument here. This is not to say that I am not intelligent enough to use a simulator outside of a GUI environment - I defy anyone to make that argument. Rather, it means I am not necessarily *skilled* enough to use one. The thing is, I shouldn't need to learn any special skills just to simulate a simple circuit. Indeed. But in fact, I bet if you did a time and motion study you'd find that typing commands is much faster than point and click. Point and click is a seductive time waster *except* for inherently graphical parts of the job. For some things, the command line is a little faster, but for some stuff, it doesn't make any sense. It also depends on how the interface in question is implemented and whether you are a particularly fast and accurate typist. I, for example, can barely manage 40 words a minute. In the case of the little script I mentioned, to run it I must open a terminal via a hotkey I already have set up for that purpose, hit ctrl-r and a few keys to find the command, hit Enter, and then supply my password. All told, it takes about 15 seconds and about 20 keypresses. On a bad day, my own inability to type accurately can inflate those figures significantly. Hell, just getting past the login prompt can take that long on a particularly bad day. On the other hand, I could just set up sudo to allow that script to run without my password, in which case a single click of the mouse would start the backup. It would undoubtedly save time, and save a lot of typing, but it's also insecure, as far as I'm concerned. Any other command line function I do is generally slowed down by the same problems, as are things such as this email. Your implication here is that these tools are and should be reserved only for experts, Absolutely not. However, there should exist tools that serve needs of experts. There are lots of tools out there that sacrifice productivity and flexibility for user comfort. Fair enough, but it doesn't have to be that way. The stupidity of some programmers' design decisions does not imply that *all* programmers make stupid decisions. The existence of a feature does not imply the requirement to *use* that feature, or the requirement to discard whatever feature(s) it is capable of replacing. Just because PCB has a schematic import function now, for example, doesn't mean people have to give up using gsch2pcb. I'm sure some will continue to use it, while others will use the import function instead (and I am quite happy it exists - thanks DJ :-) ). It is a good thing that that the comfort of the majority did not dictate the design of this vehicle. The comfort of the majority didn't dictate the design of *your* vehicle, sure, but your analogy is lacking here. I am reminded at this point of the song, Hey Little Cobra. Most of the song of course is not relevant to this discussion, but it raises one concept that wasn't even explored within the song itself: The singer owns both a Mustang and a Cadillac, the former being towed behind the latter each time he goes out to race. Obviously the singer enjoys the comfort of his Caddy, but recognizes that his hopped-up Mustang is the best choice for street racing. In the end though, both cars were designed by their OEMs for the same purpose: to move people and stuff around with some reasonable level of comfort. The same goes for your Jeep. Each car in existence has its strengths and weaknesses, whether they be speed, comfort, towing capacity/torque, economy, bragging rights, whatever. The same can be said of the gEDA suite - it is composed of many tools that are designed for the sole purpose of getting stuff done. Some parts of that suite provide a comfortable environment (PCB, Gschem), some parts are meant to do one thing and do it very fast (gsch2pcb), and others are workhorses (gnetlist). The difference between the car analogy and gEDA though, is that most cars can't easily be switched between the above duties without sacrificing something important. The same is not true of software, when you have good programmers in control, and I have every reason to believe that is the case with gEDA. Now we have easy to use systems to allow one to design a schematic and ensure that the board created from it is at least electrically identical, so far as the copper is concerned anyway. We just need the equivalent for circuit simulation. With gEDA, we already have that for chip design. I'm not talking about chip design, and unless I missed something, neither is anyone else in this thread. The overloading of pinseq= is also troublesome for simulating slotted components, but fixing this requires no changes
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 13:46:55 -0500 John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: Does that work with the GUI program known as GNOME Terminal? Works in XFCE's terminal also; drag and drop from Thunar adds a space-separated list of the absolute paths of the dropped objects to the end of the command line and leaves the cursor at the end. Any objects with spaces in the name get individually enclosed in single quotes. Huh. I never even thought to try this before. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: version control and non text files
John Griessen: As I use version control for projects, I often have datasheets in pdf form and images along with the data that compresses well in git. Does anyone know a good way to deal with such files? I usually do wget -x -N -c url in ~/Net/http so I have the complete url to the file I'm viewing. Good if I want to communicate with others, tough it can be a little hard to find them again if I forgot their url... I'm thinking of making a script to move those files out of the git controlled directory and link to them and version control the links. Then I could work on a project, change the reference docs a few times updating git all along, and after the activity dies down, copy the files I settled on back into the git repos. and commit them. What I like to do is to have a bookmark file inside the repo with url and title, like: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/1768s.pdf ARM920T-based Microcontroller AT91RM9200 http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/2502S.pdf ATmega8535L Summary http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/32003S.pdf AT32AP7000 Preliminary Summary Another thing I have thought about is to scan through my ~/Net/http for pdf files, extracting their text and put it in some search engine. I would be nice to be able to do something like: my_search axiom relay my_search national buck converter and get a list of urls I have downloaded, or why not my_search ... | while read a; do echo $a; xpdf $a; done What do you do to avoid git repos bloat with changes of docs you are using in the early phases of a project? If you do something like mkdir Todo echo Todo/ .gitignore git-commit -m 'Todo/ is a work area git should not care about' .gitignore then you have a work area *inside* the repo which git does not care about. Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
snip everything /snip I think the point John wants to make is that if you only program for a GUI, then you loose the scriptability. I have see this many times in software. Where is you write the GUI first, the scripting is an afterthought. Where as if you write something scriptable in the first place, putting a GUI on top of it is easier. I code the latter way, writing a good low level API that has a simple command line UI, then I add the GUI on top of it when it is warranted. My favorite example of fritterware is Excel spreadsheets for computation of complex formulas. Instead of a program that takes in the data files and makes the graphs and reports. I HATE taking the data files and manipulating them by hand to enter them into the spread sheets. Though this example is not GUI vs CLI, it is really GUI (Excel) vs. scripted report tool. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
Am 01.11.2010 um 18:52 schrieb John Griessen: only worried about milling and drilling. We've not had anyone with a circuit mill talk here yet that I know. Didn't notice the Enhancements for gEDA/pcb G-code export thread? When building pcb from source, you get an G-code exporter, which produces isolation milling and drilling G-code. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/? func=detailaid=3100354group_id=73743atid=538813 tries to enhance this exporter. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
Am 01.11.2010 um 22:03 schrieb Matthew Sager: if you plan to use the same size bit as the trace width and you just want to mill down the center of the trace. Huh? If you mill down the center of the trace you remove the copper there and get a negative of what you want. Did I miss something? Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 22:27 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: When building pcb from source, you get an G-code exporter, which produces isolation milling and drilling G-code. gcode export is available in the 20100929 snapshot, we have it already in the official Gentoo tree (still marked testing/unstable, but should work fine for amd64, ppc, sparc ,x86, x86-macos). Other distributions may have it also, so no need to build from sources and wonder about missing dependencies in binary distributions. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Am 01.11.2010 um 19:35 schrieb John Doty: the GUI designer's necessarily limited horizon. You become offending. Please go ahead and implement the CLI interface. It won't go away when the GUI arrives. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: pcb 20100929 snapshot fails tests
On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 23:41 +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote:
gcode export is available in the 20100929 snapshot, we have it already
in the official Gentoo tree (still marked testing/unstable, but should
And they already discovered failing tests, related to gcode, see
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=342835
http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=252117action=view
http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/sci-electronics/pcb/pcb-20100929.ebuild?view=markup
Test: hid_gcode1
../../../src/pcbtest.sh -x gcode./inputs/gcode_oneline.pcb
Invalid exporter gcode, available ones: bom gerber ps eps
../../../src/pcbtest.sh returned 1. This is a failure.
And their patch
src_prepare() {
if use test; then
# adapt the list of tests to run according to USE flag settings
if ! use png; then
sed -i '/^hid_png/d' tests/tests.list || die
fi
if ! use gcode; then
sed -i '/^hid_gcode/d' tests/tests.list || die
fi
fi
}
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Re: gEDA-user: version control and non text files
On 11/01/2010 03:18 PM, Karl Hammar wrote: If you do something like mkdir Todo echo Todo/ .gitignore git-commit -m 'Todo/ is a work area git should not care about' .gitignore then you have a work area*inside* the repo which git does not care about. I like that. That's a helpful idea for documenting open hardware projects. keeping lists of URLs is good for sharing projects also...but when a server no longer has the data...I want a copy also. Thanks, John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
On 11/01/2010 04:27 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: Didn't notice the Enhancements for gEDA/pcb G-code export thread? Oh yes. It's great that you are working on this. It's just not ready for him to use I though, Is it? Did you already get circuit prototyping results with that? JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:46:51 -0700 Steven Michalske smichal...@gmail.com wrote: I code the latter way, writing a good low level API that has a simple command line UI, then I add the GUI on top of it when it is warranted. Which is precisely what I was suggesting; since such tools obviously already exist, why not build a GUI (or adapt an existing one) some time in the future that makes use of them as a backend, for those whose needs can't be met using only CLI tools? This whole discussion brings to mind another comparison: Which is better, using K3B/Brasero/etc. to burn a CD or DVD, or going to the command line and directly using growisofs and/or cdrecord. Answer: whichever one works best for you - they're just two ways to use the same set of tools. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: version control and non text files
John Griessen: On 11/01/2010 03:18 PM, Karl Hammar wrote: If you do something like mkdir Todo echo Todo/ .gitignore git-commit -m 'Todo/ is a work area git should not care about' .gitignore then you have a work area*inside* the repo which git does not care about. I like that. That's a helpful idea for documenting open hardware projects. keeping lists of URLs is good for sharing projects also...but when a server no longer has the data...I want a copy also. Oh, you missed the wget -x part. cd ~/Net/http wget -x 'http://www.epcos.com/inf/50/db/ntc_09/MiniSensors__B57863__S863.pdf' ... xpdf www.epcos.com/inf/50/db/ntc_09/MiniSensors__B57863__S863.pdf When I download with wget -x, wget will strip the http:// part and save the file with with leading directories as in the url (and yes, there are sites that try to hide the direct link to the documentation). Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
Am 01.11.2010 um 22:03 schrieb Matthew Sager: if you plan to use the same size bit as the trace width and you just want to mill down the center of the trace. Huh? If you mill down the center of the trace you remove the copper there and get a negative of what you want. Did I miss something? You would have to use a layer as a milling layer and then you could draw arbitrary holes and slots. I don't know that doing this from the gcode exporter is possible yet, but parsing it from an exported gerber file is not to bad. Matthew -- My homepage. [1]http://sites.google.com/site/matthewsager/home References 1. http://sites.google.com/site/matthewsager/home ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Next step
On 11/01/2010 06:52 PM, Matthew Sager wrote: You would have to use a layer as a milling layer and then you could draw arbitrary holes and slots. But the question was about milling and drilling CAM SW, so tool paths -- EMC2 and HeeksCAD JG ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
On Sunday 31 October 2010, Stefan Salewski wrote: Can you please explain why we will always need the command line for simulation in gEDA? (I have newer found the time doing simulations...) Try this without a command line: Experimentally finding model parameters: http://gnucap.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gnucap:manual:examples:experimentally_finding_model_parameters Distortion analysis of an oscillator: http://gnucap.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gnucap:manual:examples:phase_shift_oscillator Bandwidth analysis of an FM transmitter: http://gnucap.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gnucap:manual:examples:fm_spectrum_analysis You should be able to do basic stuff without a command line, but outgrow it by your senior year in college. Most GUI's lead you into a trap. We need a GUI that teaches you to move on. We don't have it. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
