Re: gEDA-user: Creating new symbols
Stefan Salewski wrote: And that is a real problem. gschem should really be able to to this automatically when saving symbols. IMHO, it should not. Every translation breaks instances of the symbol in existing schematics. A better solution would be the notion of an origin, similar to the diamond in pcb footprints. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Bob Paddock wrote: How will a human from the Book project know what is and what is not spam in an esoteric area like gEDA/PCB? Some of the authors _with_ background will keep an eye on it. And no, these author are not necessarily us. That's the whole point of the operation: Get more people into the boat! It would not be hard for someone, with no background, to mistake a link to gedasymbols.org as spam link. This would be a false positive. What you worried about above is spam passing undetected. If the humans are us, we still don't need more spam. Again: The wikimedia environment is proven to work. There are several mechanisms that work in concert to provide clean content. Yes, there is no guarantee, but it works. This is similar to linux being free of viruses. The system is not immune per se. But the defense is strong enough to not let the pest crop up. Yes, this works. Did you ever notice any spam on wikipedia? I never did and I use wikipedia a lot. No commercials, either. Have you noticed the recent begging for funds on WikiPedia? Nagging for their own project is no where near to general advertisement. It is not a recent change, either. Every year since 2005 the foundation goes fund raising. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Stefan Salewski wrote: Not always a low entry barrier is a real benefit. Wikipedia beats each and every encyclopedic dictionary in existance. Nupedia, with the same aim but higher barrier produced less than 100 article were started of which a mere 24 passed the review process in the three years the project lasted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia In the technical world, there are good reasons for the use of uncommon screws, so that fools can not open dangerous devices. We are not talking about dangerous devices here, but about a manual to a software suite. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Now I'd like to save my ”new” symbol somewhere. If you added the attribute in the schematics (the document with the title block), you did not create a new symbol. You just attached an attribute to an instance of the symbol. To really change and save a symbol, you'd: 1) open the symbol with gschem (rather than open a schematic and place a symbol) 2) make your changes 3) save to some path 4) Make sure, that this path is read by gschem on start-up. For example by putting lines like these into your local $HOME/.gEDA/gafrc /--- ; Allow to source symbols from the local copy of geda-symbols (define gedasymbols /home/kmk/geda/gedasymbols/www/user/kai_martin_knaak/symbols) (component-library (build-path gedasymbols titleblock)) \-- or more simple like: / (component-library PATH_TO_THE_DIR_WITH_YOUR_SYMBOLS) \ ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: geda-user Digest, Vol 55, Issue 76
[1]http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:pcb_tips?#how_do_i_edit_change_an_e xisting_footprint Not a very good tutorial and it does not tell me how to move the positioning diamond. How do I edit/change an existing footprint? Copy selection to buffer ([ctrl-c]). The position of the crosshair will determine the origin of the resulting footprint. Well, that does not make much sense as the crosshair moves. And I told you that you may use other tools for footprint creation. I have no intention what your goal is, and for people without real name I do not care too much. Whatever! Names are optional. I could make up a make up a name, but you really get hung up on a name don't you! I don't care that you don't care! Fine, I won't use a name at all then. On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 5:05 PM, [2]geda-user-requ...@moria.seul.org wrote: Send geda-user mailing list submissions to [3]geda-u...@moria.seul.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [5]geda-user-requ...@moria.seul.org You can reach the person managing the list at [6]geda-user-ow...@moria.seul.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of geda-user digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: get-package-attribute sometimes returns ? - ID: 3114991 (John Doty) 2. Re: Resistor values? (John Doty) 3. Re: Resistor values? (DJ Delorie) 4. Re: gEDA Wikibook ? (Stefan Salewski) 5. Creating new symbols (Johnny Rosenberg) 6. Re: Creating new symbols (Stephan Boettcher) 7. Re: Creating new symbols (Stefan Salewski) 8. Re: Creating new symbols (Stefan Salewski) 9. Re: Creating new symbols (Stefan Salewski) 10. Moving positioning diamond in PCB ([7]blueeag...@gmail.com) 11. Re: Moving positioning diamond in PCB (Stefan Salewski) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:08:16 -0500 From: John Doty [8]...@noqsi.com Subject: Re: gEDA-user: get-package-attribute sometimes returns ? - ID: 3114991 To: gEDA user mailing list [9]geda-u...@moria.seul.org Message-ID: [10]e151237e-e818-4681-b1a9-239ded134...@noqsi.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 23, 2010, at 7:33 PM, Armin Faltl wrote: Of course it is fine when people try to contribute, but some basic understanding of concepts may be helpful. my basic understanding is, that text in the title blocks is meant to be as large as it should be, and that something named A4 should be printed on A4. Everybody's basic understanding differs. I'm with Stefan here, but you have different perceptions. That's how it goes with gEDA. With a flexible toolkit, there are going to be many approaches. This is a good thing. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [11]http://www.noqsi.com/ [12]...@noqsi.com -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:15:17 -0500 From: John Doty [13]...@noqsi.com Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values? To: [14]...@familieknaak.de, gEDA user mailing list [15]geda-u...@moria.seul.org Message-ID: [16]7a84bedc-2d7e-4f33-84f5-b4eb10d8c...@noqsi.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 23, 2010, at 8:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: Oh my, a symbol without a value attribute! I forgot, just how light the default library symbols are. Can anyone point me to a reason? Why do we distribute the default library in such a crippled state? Because the default library is a mixed bag of symbols created by various people at various times in support of various design flows? Yes, a default library can only be a starting point and cannot fit everybody's needs. But does the starting point really have to be so poor that it fits virtually nobody's needs Well, I was using the valueless passive symbols quite a bit yesterday. But I guess I'm virtually nobody. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [17]http://www.noqsi.com/ [18]...@noqsi.com -- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:53:23 -0500 From: DJ Delorie [19...@delorie.com Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values? To: gEDA user mailing list [20]geda-u...@moria.seul.org Cc: [21]geda-u...@moria.seul.org, [22]...@familieknaak.de Message-ID: [23]xnvd2j2h2k@envy.delorie.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Johnny Rosenberg [24]gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Sorry for my ignorance (English is not
Re: gEDA-user: Creating new symbols
Den 2010-12-24 22:16:18 skrev Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de: Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: At http://www.geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gsch2pcb_tutorial the following is written: ”When all the edits are done, it's very important when editing symbols to do a Edit→Symbol Translate to zero before saving. Do that and then save the symbol with File→Save Page” My problem is that there is no ”Save Page” in the File menu. File-Save But first it is important to recognize that there is a difference between editing a symbol, and editing a schematic with a symbal instance and instance attributes. Until now we were talking about editing a symbol instance in a schematic. To make a new symbol version, you must open the symbol file itself. You can do that by selcting the symbol in a schematic and do Hierachy-Down Symbol (Shift-H s) You will discover, that the symbol still has no value attibute. You can add it in the symbol file. The value attribute must be promoted when the symbol is instantiated. There are (not so?) complex rules which attibutes get promoted, and which not. I think, a visible, unattached attribute, called _value_ will be promoted. N.B., this is a dark side of gschem in my oppinion. Which attibutes get promoted should be defined in the symbols, independently of visibility or any strange configuration settings. After adding the attibute, value=? with proper placement and alignment, you can do File-Save_As to save the new symbol in your own symbol collection. Edit-Symbol_Translate will probably not be required, if you just do a minor modification to an existing symbol. Then you go back to your schematic, Hierachy-Up (Shift-H u) and delete the old symbol instance, and replace it with an instance of your own. How to reload the available symbols from a running gschem? I don't know. Usually I restart gschem, to reread the available symbols. You'll first need to add the location of your own symbol collection to the search path in .gafrc or something. Thanks for the information, I'll try that later; hopefully it will work. By the way, when you say ”Shift-H”, you really mean Shift+h, or just H, right? Because H is already ”shifted”, and I guess you don't mean Shift+Shift+h (which is a possible key combination since there are two shift keys on at least my keyboard). Well, I guess I can test that myself, on the other hand… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Creating new symbols
On Sat, 2010-12-25 at 09:17 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: And that is a real problem. gschem should really be able to to this automatically when saving symbols. IMHO, it should not. Every translation breaks instances of the symbol in existing schematics. A better solution would be the notion of an origin, similar to the diamond in pcb footprints. ---)kaimartin(--- Hm... Following the documentation we always have to do the translation to 0/0, when we save a symbol. When we really have to do it always, it can and should be done automatically. Indeed, I can remember that I onece forgot that translation, got a broken symbol with pins not aligned to 100 multiples of grid and start symbol creation again from scratch, because I was not sure how to fix it after storing to disk. But I have never really investigated this step. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
On Sat, 2010-12-25 at 09:50 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Not always a low entry barrier is a real benefit. Wikipedia beats each and every encyclopedic dictionary in existance. Nupedia, with the same aim but higher barrier produced less than 100 article were started of which a mere 24 passed the review process in the three years the project lasted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupedia Yes, wikipedia is great, but it is very special. Basically each entry is a own topic, so a single author can work on one entry, without a clue off the rest. Most of the time this works, but still sometimes this leads to redundancy. For writing a book having many authors often is a problem, two or 3 authors can be already to much. Here in germany we use the term many cooks destroy the foot, viele Köche verderben den Brei. When wikipedia started years ago, most access to Internet was possible from universities only, restricting many fools. Today a really large part of new stuff in wikipedia is being deleted soon, for various reasons. That may be necessary to ensure quality standards, but make some authors unhappy. And finally, Wikipedia has very many proofreaders, this ensures quality. For more special wikis things are worse, you can find outdated, wrong and silly entries. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 1:50 AM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: Resistors are just one of many component types out there have a value, no matter what type of package they come in Resistors often don't come in packages. I use resistors in VLSI design, and textbook symbolic abstractions of resistors also have no packages. Then there's simulation, where it is usually unnecessary to simulate the package even if it will exist someday. gschem/gnetlist are excellent tools for schematic capture for VLSI, symbolic analysis, and simulation. - with rare exceptions, every single one of them you pick up will have numbers or color bands indicating that value, we all know that. That value might be zero ohms, but it is still a *value*. By convention, in symbolic analysis of circuits, the value is the same as the refdes. So no value attribute is needed. The same goes for every last capacitor, inductor, etc., though I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any that have a value of zero. Maybe you're hard-pressed here, but I am not. I often set values to zero when analyzing or simulating circuits. Limiting cases, y'know. Sometimes I even use negative numbers. If you only use gschem/gnetlist to feed pcb, you will have a severely limited perception of their true capabilities, and the genius behind their design. It would be great if pcb users would pool their resources and create a library specifically for a common pcb flow. But it will never happen. Even in that small corner of the vast gEDA universe there are still widely divergent notions of flow and style. So almost everybody will continue to fight the toolkit and complain. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
John: ... When thinking bout documentation, please do take into account the effort being done by people line Shaun McCance, to create a new help format for gnome. If it was for me, I'd leave out a dependency on gnome. Hopefully the format is text based and there are readers for other widget sets. www.mallardproject.org documents this, and it has some very tempting ... $ host -t ns mallardproject.org Host mallardproject.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) A typo? Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Stefan Salewski: On Fri, 2010-12-24 at 10:43 +0100, Armin Faltl wrote: of making. But why not a real book, that is written in LaTeX? LaTeX is fine for a thesis and text books, with many formulas, intended to be printed and viewed as PDF. For other documentation more versatile formats (with LaTeX backed) are better. ... I've done music scores with Latex and Lilypond, and I usually don't produce pdf's except for others, I'm more at home with postscript; so I claim that your assertion is false. Lilypond itself is using texinfo for documentation though. Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Russell: ... I don't do latex, because not one sane person on any planet can explain Tex. (yes, i've read all the tex manuals and have written compiler tools) Strange wording. I've not read the tex manuals and I can still produce and be fluent with Latex. About Tex, it's just an old macro processor and as such it has it's drawbacks. The good point (depending of your point of view) about Tex is that it's format is stable, you don't have to relearn every tree years. Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Kai-Martin: ... I have to agree with timecop on this issue: The problem that needs to be solved, is not connected to the file format. It about finding authors. Yes and no, contributors efforts have to be accepted also as you have mentioned from time to time. This is the big benefit of the wikibook concept. The entry barrier is as low as it can possibly get. Contribution is allowed to literally everyone. Click on the edit button and go ahead. ... You have to be online for that. Please do not develop an environment where you have to be online all the time to be able to contribute. I prefer something where I can develop and review the thing myself off-line. If you go the Latex or texinfo with git route, I'd be willing to contribute. Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
On 26/12/10 01:13, Karl Hammar wrote: Russell: ... I don't do latex, because not one sane person on any planet can explain Tex. (yes, i've read all the tex manuals and have written compiler tools) Strange wording. I've not read the tex manuals and I can still produce and be fluent with Latex. About Tex, it's just an old macro processor and as such it has it's drawbacks. The good point (depending of your point of view) about Tex is that it's format is stable, you don't have to relearn every tree years. Hi, I've written documents with images in Latex. It all seems quite neat on the surface. When you dig down to Tex to try and do something for templates other than book or article, there's no hope in hell in making sense of the incoherent ramblings of all the existing Tex documentation. The most technical terms for the parsing machinery is throat/gullet/stomach. Where is the BNF syntax for the Tex parser, or the list of recognized characters for the recognized keywords? Where is the list of builtin functions for any builtin keywords? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: 27th Chaos Communication Congress (27C3)
My workshop got the go ahead, it's on Monday evening. I'm collecting some details on the wiki page [1]. Would your workshop be a good place to meet existing gEDA users? The workshop might be a bit low level for exiting gEDA users, but a meet up after might be good. Also I plan on hanging out a fare bit in the Hardware Hacking Area [2] so you can meet with me there. Robert 1. http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/wiki/Introduction_to_gEDA_Workshop 2. http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/wiki/Hardware_Hacking_Area ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
Armin: ... I know that a wiki book may have some advantages in the collaboration of making. But why not a real book, that is written in LaTeX? Sending patches for TeX-files or chapters is a very simple process and a pdf-book can be downloaded as a whole and read offline, printed. That's what we try to do now for Varkon Programmers Handbook. Another project with similar tools is Lilypond [1], they use texinfo and git. As such the they can extract documentation from the source code (for it's documentation) and have written documentation. Their output formats is info-file, web/html, pdf/ps. What they have produced is something to aim for. Do we have other good examples of documentation? Regards, /Karl Hammar [1] http://www.lilypond.org/manuals.html - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
Stephan: Merry Christmas! Thanks, Merry Christmas to youself! ... === Make elements small layouts === An element shall be defined as a small layout, same syntax, same semantics. ... That would be great. === Introduce the concept of classes/macros === A macro is a sub-layout ... If a macro is a sub-layout, why not just call it a sublayout. COW ... What is COW? === Hierarchical layout === Elements may contain Elements. Either with hierarchical netlist, or with flattened refdes, like gnetlist generates. When the higher level elements are defined as macros, a fully hierarchical layout is possible. Great, can we have paramenters/return values passed to/from the sub-layouts/elements? Like, here is a led and resistor, we want to feed it with 12V, 5V etc., or is that more a job for gschem? Another cases could be: . here is a sub-layout, but we want 1 mm clearance . drill/thickness ratio should be 2.4 for this connector . ohh, you cannot have 5 mm clearance for the connector . here are five output relays, it should be a relay every 13 mm along this line. . here is a trace, we want it to be able to handle 12 A . this stripline should be 50 Ohm . this serpentine should have a trace length of 27.4 mm ... Regards, /Karl Hammar - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
On Sat, 2010-12-25 at 16:06 +0100, Karl Hammar wrote: If a macro is a sub-layout, why not just call it a sublayout. COW ... What is COW? Copy On Write I would guess. (It is a common idea in operating system internals). Presumably the intention is just that an individual sub-instance could be cloned and altered to replace some of the instantiations. Like, here is a led and resistor, we want to feed it with 12V, 5V etc., or is that more a job for gschem? That is beyond what we probably want to teach gschem. Explicit parameter passing between hierarchy modules is probably a good idea though, as it allows tools to view / present the parameters being passed, and allows code sharing for the parameter passing mechanism rather than requiring each netlist back-end to re-implement nearly the same thing. And having subtly different implementations between (say), netlist extraction for simulation, and for driving a layout tool. Interpretation of equations or value definitions would almost without doubt need to live in a modular back-end, as the mathematical descriptions, primitives may vary between usage fields. It might be good to keep such back-ends distinct from our concept of a gnetlist back-end though, as one might presume SOME calculation / substitution / back-annotation could be shared between a number of target gnetlist back-ends. It would probably be possible to parametrise the required component values like this in VHDL / verilog(-ams): LED1.vf = 2.7v LED1.if = 23mA R1.value = ( module.supply_voltage - LED1.vf ) / LED1.if The modular backend handling maths expansion would be used the process the attribute references and compute the value. (And perhaps back-annotate to the schematic). For some targets, this might also involve post-processing to identify preferred component values, add data from a parts library - whatever. Personally, I see this kind of tool as more of a pre-schematic stage, since at some point it is likely you will want to nail down the part data explicitly - but that is perhaps me coming at the problem from a PCB work-flow mind-set. Perhaps there is even scope at some level for a two-way flow.. Imagine a filter block which is parametrised by a cutoff frequency. The component values are chosen based upon the user-specified cut-off when inputting a design requirement. Similarly, if the user chooses to modify one of the component values.. it could reflect that change by updating the module's specified cutoff frequency. (This would require either a lot of special casing per sub-circuit, or some fancy equation solving engine which can operate with arbitrary variables in an equations being known or free to vary as outputs). Another cases could be: . here is a sub-layout, but we want 1 mm clearance . drill/thickness ratio should be 2.4 for this connector . ohh, you cannot have 5 mm clearance for the connector . here are five output relays, it should be a relay every 13 mm along this line. . here is a trace, we want it to be able to handle 12 A . this stripline should be 50 Ohm . this serpentine should have a trace length of 27.4 mm All good examples. First step is to record the engineer's design goal in some kind of explicit manner. A logical step is requiring a report of a given design to see what the actual characteristic of the designed trace / whatever meets. Then as a first cut, you have a more advanced DRC test which determines whether the layout / schematic meets the stated design goals. As a more advanced step (either a complement or alternative to the DRC addition), you could introduce a solver which constrains the layout being created to comply with the design goals - either through placement rules, locking a particular track thickness, or whatever. Track_width = Automatic (all design goals) Track_width = Automatic (for design impedance) Track_width = Automatic (for design current density) Track_width = Automatic (based on net class) Track_width = 20mil Track_width = 30mil ... ... All ideas.. I'm not coding anything on this in the foreseeable future ;) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: holidays
Happy Holidays, folks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
k...@aspodata.se (Karl Hammar) writes: Stephan: Merry Christmas! Thanks, Merry Christmas to youself! ... === Make elements small layouts === An element shall be defined as a small layout, same syntax, same semantics. ... That would be great. === Introduce the concept of classes/macros === A macro is a sub-layout ... If a macro is a sub-layout, why not just call it a sublayout. I really do not care about the name. But those sublayouts are not only sublayouts, but also via stacks and element footprints, or whatever comes up in the furture to use the concept. COW ... What is COW? Copy On Write. Currently, you can change attibute sof individual pads on individual elements, since they are all distinct copies of the footprint. This possibility needs to be preserved, and during develpment, the HID must behave as beiore, by default. So when an Element is a macro instance, when you change a pad width or clearance, you must brack the reference to the original macro definition. How to do that is up to the HID. === Hierarchical layout === Elements may contain Elements. Either with hierarchical netlist, or with flattened refdes, like gnetlist generates. When the higher level elements are defined as macros, a fully hierarchical layout is possible. Great, can we have paramenters/return values passed to/from the sub-layouts/elements? No, not in my visions, but I can see some override mechanisms. I made a sketch of a file structure how this could work. Again, I do not care about the syntax, I do not like xml that much, but with some dicipline it could be close to ok: layout resolution=1nm units=1um name=EXAMPLE font ... /font layer id=1 name=top map=copper;component,outer mirror=bottom/ layer id=2 name=power map=copper;inner/ layer id=3 name=ground map=copper;inner/ layer id=4 name=bottom map=copper;solder,outer mirror=top/ layer id=5 name=topsilk map=silk_component mirror=botsilk/ layer id=6 name=botsilk map=silk_solder mirror=topsilk/ layer id=7 name=topmask map=soldermask_component mirror=botmask/ layer id=8 name=botmask map=soldermask_solder mirror=topmask/ layer id=9 name=toppaste map=solderpaste_component mirror=botpaste/ layer id=10 name=botpaste map=solderpaste_solder mirror=toppaste/ layer id=11 name=outline layer id=12 name=vias map=via connect=top;power;ground;bottom/ layer id=13 name=microvias connect=top;power/ routingstyle id=1 name=signal via=via1 width=10mil clear=10mil ends=round/ macro id=1 name=via1 cow=macro dot id=1 layer=vias diameter=16mil/ dot id=2 map=inner diameter=36mil clear=8mil/ dot id=3 map=outer diameter=40mil shape=octagonal clear=10mil/ /macro macro name=via1_1 copied=via1 cow=macro unref=delete dot id=1 layer=vias diameter=16mil/ dot id=3 map=outer diameter=40mil shape=octagonal clear=10mil / dot id=4 layer=power diameter=36mil clear=8mil / dot id=5 layer=ground diameter=36mil clear=8mil thermal=X / /macro macro id=2 name=0603 cow=contents units=1mil line id=1 map=component width=35 ends=square pin=1 clear=10 32 -2 32 2 /line line id=2 map=component width=35 ends=square pin=2 clear=10 -32 -2 -32 2 /line line id=3 map=solderpaste_component width=35 ends=square 32 -2 32 2 /line line id=4 map=solderpaste_component width=35 ends=square -32 -2 -32 2 /line line id=5 map=soldermask_component width=41 ends=square 32 -2 32 2 /line line id=6 map=soldermask_component width=41 ends=square -32 -2 -32 2 /line line id=7 map=silk_component width=4 -30 -15 30 -15 30 15 -30 15 -30 -15 /line text id=8 map=silk_component size=25mil x=40 y=-40 hierarchy=full / /macro element id=1 name=R1 value=1k reference=0603 x=100 y=150 rotation=0 instance macro=0603 override id=1 name=Pin1 clear=15mil override id=2 name=Pin2 /instance /element line layer=top ends=round 132 150 132 250 /line instance macro=via1_1 x=132 y=250/ /layout -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk writes: All ideas.. I'm not coding anything on this in the foreseeable future ;) ... but, somebody must code the graphics to support new features, e.g., dehilighting all objects that are not part of the currently edited sublayout instances. :-) -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. If the absence of a value= attribute is a problem for you, attach one. Even if it's present, it's likely to be wrong, so you have about the same amount of work to do in any case. But getting rid of it is somewhat more work, especially in existing schematics that assume its absence. The presence of an empty value= label still serves a purpose - it stores the position information so that the designer doesn't have to manually move N copies of value= for every resistor. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. Ah, the tyranny of the majority again. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 10:10:16 +0100 Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de wrote: Merry Christmas! Same to you and to the community! == PCB wishlist == The recent (and some not so recent) discussions made me think about how development of PCB could proceed to solve some of the feature request, in a future-proof way. This is what came up in my mind. === Make all layers explicit === Everything shall be layers. Silk, paste, mask layers shall be exlicit. Via-layers typically only contain filled circles, the holes. A via-layer defines to which subset of other (copper) layers it connects to. A Via is a hole on a via layer plus copper circles on all copper layers. Vias-layers will probably not be implememted before macros (below) are available. Until then, they may be special case macros, like they are now. The old layergroup mechanism will be replaced by defining for a copper layer to which other layers it electrically connects, in the same way as a via-layer does. File format/connectivity does not require different layer types. There is no difference between via-, copper-, graphical layers. Layer types steer footprint import, routers, drc, ... Those can be arbitrary attributes, understood by the respective HID engines. Yes. That would be nice === Make elements small layouts === An element shall be defined as a small layout, same syntax, same semantics. A pin/pad shall be an attribute on any piece of copper (which may then be drawn dark gray by the HID). On footprint import, some layer mapping needs to happen, so that generic pads and pins appear on and connect to the right layers. I like this idea. Then, there would be only one file format. In the same way, we could import other PCBs to e.g. a panel pcb. Only grouping needs to be implemented. The same way, we could define padstacks as well. === Introduce the concept of classes/macros === A macro is a sub-layout that can be instantiated at a higher level, positioned and rotated. Footprints and via-stacks are defined as macros. A via is defined as a via-stack macro instance, an element initially typically contains a single footprint macro instance. The HIDs will implement Copy-On-Write by default, so we can still change individual vias, pads, ... Or descend into the hierarchy, and edit the macro. COW can either create a new macro (default for Vias?) or copy the macro contents into the Element. Yes! === Hierarchical layout === Elements may contain Elements. Either with hierarchical netlist, or with flattened refdes, like gnetlist generates. When the higher level elements are defined as macros, a fully hierarchical layout is possible. === Convert the internal units from decimil to nanometer === Start by defining a variable (=254e-9), and make all output HIDs use that to convert to PS-point or gerber units or whatever. Then introduce attributes of the layout file which sets the internal units and the default unit of the file. Use 64bits integers. === ASIC HID === When all that is implemented, an HID(-mode) optimized for chip design is only a small step. Well, I'd focus on PCB layout for the first time. Levente ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:14:27 +0100 Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de wrote: line layer=top ends=round 132 150 132 250 /line I'd add a current netname to copper objects line layer=top ends=round netname=GND 132 150 132 250 /line Or something like this. Levente ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. The tyranny of the majority, again. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. Maybe to you gEDA is just one of the crowd of hobbyist EDA tools. It is much more to me. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. I'm still cleaning up from the mess created when the default attribute promotion policy was changed a couple of years ago, apparently to better serve the perceived needs of small scale pcb projects. It's easy to fix in gafrc, but you had to know to do it before populating your schems with unwanted promoted footprints. Some developer just wasn't thinking about the breadth of the application space. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: rotate refdes in pcb?
Hello, I've tried everything I can think of to rotate a refdes in pcb, but I cannot get it to work. I can rotate components just fine, and the refdes rotates with it, but I just want to rotate the refdes and not the component. I've tried selecting the only names option. Moving it is not a problem. How can I rotate it? Thanks, Frank ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-25 20:59:14 skrev John Doty j...@noqsi.com: On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: John Doty j...@noqsi.com writes: Often, perhaps, but not usually. No matter how you slice it, the most common way to use such a symbol and its corresponding physical representation is as a component on a circuit board or in an IC. Maybe for you. Your opinion doesn't change the statistics. gEDA is most often used to design circuit boards. The tyranny of the majority, again. Yes it is. It is extremely important that gEDA remain the excellent tool for these jobs that it is. Extremely? Not at all. It's only as as important as the people willing to work on it make it. Maybe to you gEDA is just one of the crowd of hobbyist EDA tools. It is much more to me. They won't if the attitude of I don't care to know about any flow except pcb, and all I want is my version of the pcb flow isn't vigorously opposed. You've yet to prove that that attitude actually exists. I'm still cleaning up from the mess created when the default attribute promotion policy was changed a couple of years ago, apparently to better serve the perceived needs of small scale pcb projects. It's easy to fix in gafrc, but you had to know to do it before populating your schems with unwanted promoted footprints. Some developer just wasn't thinking about the breadth of the application space. Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:14:27 +0100 Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de wrote: line layer=top ends=round 132 150 132 250 /line I'd add a current netname to copper objects line layer=top ends=round netname=GND 132 150 132 250 /line Or something like this. This is fundamentally different from how PCB treats copper, connectivity and netlist now, and restricts the flexifility of the tool that results from how it works now. So, that would be a separate set of changes. The current netname only as documentation? Anyway, a flexible format (like xml) can accomodate everything, syntactically. I was thinking mostly about semantics, now. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… Please don't. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
Den 2010-12-25 22:12:40 skrev Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de: Johnny Rosenberg gurus.knu...@gmail.com writes: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… Please don't. Well, I guess it's not regrettable anyway; the question is already asked and I think I also got a couple of great answers, thank you all for that. After being a member of this list for only a couple of days it already feels like this is a good place to ask questions. Quick and helpful answers are always appreciated. I am a member of quite a few lists by now, like Ubuntu, a couple of OpenOffice.org lists, GIMP, EasyTAG and more. Some of them are very dead, but this one seems to be alive, which is nice. I know I am probably the ”newest” guy here so I don't think that anyone will listen to me that much, but can we at least keep the ”wars” in separate threads? And thanks again, all of you, for many great answers. -- Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: holidays
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year all. -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY Linux, free software, for the people, by the people. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… No need to regret it. It was a good question. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:07:16 +0100 Stephan Boettcher boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de wrote: This is fundamentally different from how PCB treats copper, connectivity and netlist now, and restricts the flexifility of the tool that results from how it works now. So, that would be a separate set of changes. The current netname only as documentation? The thing made post my previous message, is that it is very annoying when unconnected line stays on PCB, and there is no chance to connect anything to it. Even to the net it was formerly connected. Other solution to this would be to let anything to be connected to copper objects (Via, line) when it is not connected to anything. Anyway, a flexible format (like xml) can accomodate everything, syntactically. I was thinking mostly about semantics, now. Ok, I like your ideas. Levente ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
I see the need for something akin to a preferred default positioning, where when a symbol is rotated there is a place where your prefer your attributes to be placed. Have geschem do the auto place template not part of the symbols at all Steve On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:48 PM, John Doty j...@noqsi.com wrote: On Dec 25, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: Hm… I start to regret that I asked the question in the first place… No need to regret it. It was a good question. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: rotate refdes in pcb?
There used to be a bug in older versions of pcb where you had to move the component before you could manipulate the refdes. This also was helped by a save and reopen of the pcb file. On Dec 25, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Frank fhri...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I've tried everything I can think of to rotate a refdes in pcb, but I cannot get it to work. I can rotate components just fine, and the refdes rotates with it, but I just want to rotate the refdes and not the component. I've tried selecting the only names option. Moving it is not a problem. How can I rotate it? Thanks, Frank ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:20:03 +0100 kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: It about finding authors. I'm not entirely sure about that. I think there would be persons that would be prepared to produce documents, if there were no necessity to wade through the source code to detect what has to be written about. Even if the source code has excellent comments included, few people will volunteer for the task if the it isn't clear what has to be done. That is not unsimilar to writing code for a client - the work is not writing the code. It is getting reliable specs from him/her. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Christmas wishlist
Levente Kovacs leventel...@gmail.com writes: The thing made post my previous message, is that it is very annoying when unconnected line stays on PCB, and there is no chance to connect anything to it. Even to the net it was formerly connected. Well, that is a question of the HIDs, i.e., processes, in this case the auto-DRC feature, which you cen easily turn off. This is unrelated to semantics or syntax of the persistent data structures I was talking about. -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values…
On Saturday 25 December 2010 14:59:14 John Doty wrote: On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Yup, we're tyrants because we want to make it easier for 99% of our users to get their jobs done. But you aren't. A special purpose pcb-centric symbol/footprint library would be a fine substitute for the eclectic default library. For those users who would do better with it, it would be here, install this. But nobody's done that. Changing the default library piecemeal won't solve the problem, and will break things. I absolutely agree. At home I've had to create different libraries to support various methods of assembly. I have one library for surface mounting through-hole components. It lets me hand assemble crude prototypes. The next library was created piece by piece. Whenever I use a new part I create a new footprint. It's designed for hand assembly of manufactured boards. Last is a *professional* library that is intended for board houses using automated assembly techniques. This last technique was taught to me by our layout engineer at work. His primary goal is design for manufacturing. The complaints I keep hearing about gschem/pcb libraries remind me of his complaints about Orcad. However, he disdains the use of *any* symbol or footprint that he did not create himself. In fact, even when I was using Eagle I had to modify their libraries to support my methods of hand assembly. So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Best regards, Mark Stanley www.WideBandSystems.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ?
On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 4:16 PM, John Coppens j...@jcoppens.com wrote: On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:20:03 +0100 kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: It about finding authors. I'm not entirely sure about that. I think there would be persons that would be prepared to produce documents, if there were no necessity to wade through the source code to detect what has to be written about. If it will stop the bikeshedding here, I volunteer to translate a tutorial from crayon-on-napkin into LaTeX or DocBook or whatever. I believe that the author gets to choose the format, not the recipient. Regards, Mark markra...@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values???
On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 09:23:17PM -0500, Mark wrote: snip So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Maybe we should extend existing library in a way that we clone existing symbols, prefix the names by use case and add/delete attributes. Since the currently available library wouldn't change at all, no existing schematics would be broken. We now have resistor-1.sym and resistor-2.sym; we woulg then have these cloned as _P_resistor-1.sym and _P_resistor-2.sym, _P_ meaning they are intended for use on PCB. Of course, this would increase the confusion of new users, but it should be no harder than getting the L/N/M suffix of some SMD footpritns in PCB. Regards, Tibor Palinkas ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
