Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 22:37:46 +0200 Kai-Martin Knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: CERN software engeneers don't fear complexity -- not under the hood, nor on the interface. They strive for elegance and excellent results instead. See the structure and the UI of paw, or root. Well... When I was at CERN back in 2005 I noticed for example that they were moving from Linux to windows. They changed the mail servers TO some winXX server. So I feel that even in CERN there is a move towards the click click click direction. I mean integrated solutions etc. I don't know what is going on there nowadays though. Levente -- Kovacs Levente leventel...@gmail.com Voice: +36705071002 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 15:10:57 +0200 Kai-Martin Knaak kn...@iqo.uni-hannover.de wrote: John Hudak wrote: Anyway, I switched to using KiCAD and it was like going from driving a FIAT stick to driving a 911 stick... Please elaborate on this one. What exactly constituted the difference that made you feel like that? You already told us about the library/M4 thing. But there was certainly more. What was it? I had a similar experience. I recently wanted to do a design that i'd like to publish as open hardware. For that i thought it would be a good idea to use an open source eda tool instead of the closed one i'm usually working with. I had a look at gEDA and kicad in the process and a few others as well. In the end, i decided that none of them was up to what i was used to work with. gEDA has no design flow whatsoever, which makes it hard to grasp the philosophy and get up to speed (hint: i want to do a design, not spend weeks learning a tool before i can even place a resistor). The UI of gschem seemed clumsy at best, but probably workable with some time spend learning it. I frankly couldnt figure out how to use pcb to do what i need to do. (you can call me stupid if you wish). My kicad experience was of similar nature, though because of different reasons: I'm used to complex designs and the need to set various paramters of my design as i need to. kicad for some reason doesnt seem to offer that. It mostly felt like being an OSS version of eagle. The good part of kicad was, that producing a PCB is easily possible even if you know nothing about the tool. But getting to more advanced features was hard to impossible within the time i tried it. Now comes the catch: When i was a teenager, i did an electronics project in high school. Not having access to the internet and not knowing anything about OSS (i dont think gEDA existed back then), i got a copy of Orcad for DOS (it was ancient even back then). But, within a day i was able to enter my first test schematics and produce something that looked like a PCB which we could use for trying the production in the chemistry lab. It took me way over a month to do a uC based project back then, but most of it was due to my inexperience in electronics than tool problems. I.e. i was able to produce a quite complex design with a quite complex tool (unless you want to tell me that Orcad is for the simple minded) with no prior design experience and definitly no tools experience at all. Now the question is, why isn't there any OSS EDA tool out there that combines the availability of complex features with ease of use like Orcad did 20 years ago? If there were one, i'd be happy to throw money at it, to help it being developed. Attila Kinali PS: for my OH project, i decided to stick with comercial tools. -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB panner control
Colin D Bennett wrote: pcb will be better than ever before now that auto-scroll is out of my way. Is anyone else bothered by auto-scroll?) Me. I habitually turn it off with the right mouse button, whenever I see these little squares where the lines of the cross cursor hit the edge of the canvas. Auto scroll just goes on forever, when I reach for the menu or change styles during manual routing. Makes it a no-no for me. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD
John Hudak wrote: Um, with all due respectI don't consider myself 'simple minded' (...) and finally: Smart people seems to have not really big problems with current gEDA state. Note, that Stefan is not a native speaker. We, who use english as a foreign language, have a hard time to get the tone right. I can guess the german phrases Stefan had in mind. Let me assure you, their subtext is far less offensive and more tongue in cheek. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
Hello everyone, I tried adding 0Volt sources for the series-creating device and 0Amp current sources for the paralleling device. But no avail. The nets are still disjoint in the second case. Would it help it I posted a schematic? Could anyone shed some light please? Thanks in Advance... ~Abhijit On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:18, Abhijit Kshirsagar abhijit...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I'm using gschem, gnetlist and ngspice to simulate some aspects of my research work. I am using a technique called Bond - graph modelling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph), which some of you may be familiar with. I have creating symbols for all the elements I require, which are implemented either 1. using subcircuits with standard SPICE syntax (R, C, L, Voltage and Current sources, etc) 2. Underlying schematics (*.sch files) referenced using the source= attribute. Now the problem I have run into is as follows. Two of the symbols that I require are only wires. These symbols and the required schematics are as follows: http://imgur.com/a/1jYe8#vpaed When i run the netlister, none of the connections show up in the netlist. It is as if the junction device doesn't exist. If i use off page connectors with attributes like net=a1:1 then only one of the internal connections reflects in the netlist. The only thing that works is using Zero-ohm resistors, but then SPICE complains about algebraic loops. I'm sure I'm doing something really really wrong and/or stupid and I've been tearing my hair out for the past week now, so any help and guidance would really be appreciated. Also, please forgive me if i sound incoherent and unclear - I will clarify with more info if needed... Thanks in advance, Regards, ~Abhijit ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 03:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: The good part of kicad was, that producing a PCB is easily possible even if you know nothing about the tool. But getting to more advanced features was hard to impossible within the time i tried it. Now comes the catch: When i was a teenager, i did an electronics project in high school. Not having access to the internet and not knowing anything about OSS (i dont think gEDA existed back then), i got a copy of Orcad for DOS (it was ancient even back then). But, within a day i was able to enter my first test schematics and produce something that looked like a PCB . . . Now the question is, why isn't there any OSS EDA tool out there that combines the availability of complex features with ease of use like Orcad did 20 years ago? If there were one, i'd be happy to throw money at it, to help it being developed. Attila Kinali PS: for my OH project, i decided to stick with comercial tools. If anyone has some time for planning user interface changes, I have a few low level ideas of what is stopping development toward complex features with ease of use. 1. The double keystrokes in gschem need to become single strokes to match with every other UI anywhwere, so de facto standard key commands can be adopted for cut, paste, etc. 2. The scales of symbols and borders in existing libraries needs to be workable for A size or letter size paper out of the box. And the beginner mode should have a create new drawing button that encapsulates this. 3. A tool manager could be the place for some of this new function. A tool manager that integrates the separate tools and serves to reinforce a pcb development work flow as a memory aid and speed tool for infrequent users. 4. PCB needs an alternate mode to start in where sequences of common tasks are started by a single button, rather than, 1. get in the right tool mode, 2. click mouse. For beginners, it needs to include: create traces all with the mouse, place parts all with the mouse, move parts with mouse and a modifier key, drag traces. Use of cut and paste buffers needs to be invisible by default and otional with a workaround that does not require knowing they exist. After these low level stoppers, we should find textbooks to study on GUI design, compare those to Orcad twenty years ago, and copy what is not patented. John Griessen -- Ecosensory ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 03:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: The good part of kicad was, that producing a PCB is easily possible even if you know nothing about the tool. But getting to more advanced features was hard to impossible within the time i tried it. Now comes the catch: When i was a teenager, i did an electronics project in high school. Not having access to the internet and not knowing anything about OSS (i dont think gEDA existed back then), i got a copy of Orcad for DOS (it was ancient even back then). But, within a day i was able to enter my first test schematics and produce something that looked like a PCB yes, OrCad was a very powerful eda tool and to a certain extent quite intuitive. I used this for many years back then. . . . Now the question is, why isn't there any OSS EDA tool out there that combines the availability of complex features with ease of use like Orcad did 20 years ago? I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this. If there were one, i'd be happy to throw money at it, to help it being developed. Attila Kinali I also agree. I would be willing to do the same. I noticed somewhere on the geda website that some arrangement has been made already with Linuxfund.org to help toward this cause. I only see a mention of the PCB tool - and no mention of gSchem or others. I wonder if someone can clarify this here. I think this is one more reason to compile a concise list of features contained in this tool suite as an overview to help new or returning users to see the importance of this project. =Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
we should find textbooks to study on GUI design From page 540 of the wxBook, that is downloadable online for free. Actual URL's might need updated: Further Reading Apple Human Interface Guidelines: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/ UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html Key differences between Mac OS X and Windows UIs: http://developer. apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html Microsoft Official Guidelines for UI Developers: http://msdn.microsoft.com/ library/default.asp?url=/library/en us/dnwue/html/welcome.asp GNOME Human Interface Guidelines: http://developer.gnome.org/ projects/gup/hig GUI Bloopers: Don’ts and Do’s for Software Developers and Web Designers, by Jeff Johnson (Academic Press). ISBN 1-55860-582-7 User Interface Design for Programmers, by Joel Spolsky (Apress). ISBN 1-893115-94-1 Software for Use: A Practical Guide to the Models and Methods of Usage- Centered Design, by Larry L. Constantine and Lucy A.D. Lockwood (ACM Press). ISBN 0-201-92478-1 Support your local library... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:22:27 -0500 John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: If anyone has some time for planning user interface changes, I have a few low level ideas of what is stopping development toward complex features with ease of use. Ah! Finaly someone seeing the light! :-) 4. PCB needs an alternate mode to start in where sequences of common tasks are started by a single button, rather than, 1. get in the right tool mode, 2. click mouse. I think this is the most important of all. Ie make the common task simple and easy to use. All of them, no exception. If it takes me a minute to look up what command i need to use to place a resistor another to figure out how i connect it to the other one, then something is wrong. Also, these commands need to be easy to remember. What striked me quite odd with gEDA was that the key commands had no easy way to remember. I don't actually mind them being two key codes (at least not for most, some like rotate, mirror etc should be one key commands), but they should be easy to remember. One easy way to acheive that is to use the first letter of the most commonly used word for that operation (it does not need to be in every language, just using english is enough). Additionally a list of what the word was should be listed with the list of shortcuts, to make it easy to learn them After these low level stoppers, we should find textbooks to study on GUI design, compare those to Orcad twenty years ago, and copy what is not patented. I doubt anything from that is patented. Patenting wasnt the frency back then. And even if it would be, i doubt anyone would sue a OSS project for that kind of stuff (there are far more lucrative targets out there). As for the GUI design books, if you can find a good one, please let me know. I'm looking for one as well. And i'm also available for GUI usability testing. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:22:27 -0500 John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: After these low level stoppers, we should find textbooks to study on GUI design, compare those to Orcad twenty years ago, and copy what is not patented. Addendum: Try to figure out what your users want, first. Write down the usual work flow and adapt the GUI to match that workflow. Yes, i know that the workflow is tool dependent, but there are many tools out there that follow a more or less similar workflow and i think gEDA should match that as well. If there is a good reason to deviate from that common workflow, it should be marked specially so that everyone who is new to gEDA sees it and also noted why it makes sense to do it that way (this is important as it makes it much more easy to remember how to do it) I don't know who developers of gEDA are, much less what their background is. But i assume that there should be enough EEs around that can provide samples of daily workflows. I can provide such as well, if anyone wants. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 10:03 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: Yes, i know that the workflow is tool dependent, but there are many tools out there that follow a more or less similar workflow and i think gEDA should match that as well. If there is a good reason to deviate from that common workflow, it should be marked s One way to do an integrated GUI is to do it flow specific, but with settings you can change the flow. When you change the flow, the GUI looks different and has reminders for the chosen flow and nothing else. And a banner at top says, gschem-to-pcb, or gschem-to-PADS, or icarus-verilog-gnucap-simulation-gschem-pcb or, GNSPICE-simulation-gschem-gnetlist-to-chip-layout ... These GUIs could have names to launch the tool manager with the settings set, and some users would use the first one and never open a manual. And John Doty might never write the last one, since he doesn't like a GUI for EDA work. icarus-verilog-gnucap-simulation-gschem-pcb is going to need some low level work first, but you get the idea... Now if I just had a budget. John -- Ecosensory ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
I find this instructive, as some of the problems you see are just misunderstandings about how the tools work, indicating that our documentation and/or tutorials need help? 2. The scales of symbols and borders in existing libraries needs to be workable for A size or letter size paper out of the box. And the beginner mode should have a create new drawing button that encapsulates this. There is no such fixed scale in gschem. Any schematic will fit on any size page, gschem always scales to fit. My library has a range of title boxes that are all proportioned the same but various sizes relative to the parts, I just pick the one that fits around the circuit. 3. A tool manager could be the place for some of this new function. A tool manager that integrates the separate tools and serves to reinforce a pcb development work flow as a memory aid and speed tool for infrequent users. My flow is to run gschem and pcb, and use pcb's importer. I see no need for a third GUI when there are no other buttons needed. create traces all with the mouse, place parts all with the mouse, move parts with mouse and a modifier key, drag traces. Use of cut and paste buffers needs to be invisible by default and otional with a workaround that does not require knowing they exist. I almost never use cut and paste in PCB, and when I do (usually for moving the whole board around), I use the standard Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V keystrokes. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this. I gave a set of labs at DevCon to Windows-based hardware engineers. The environment was 100% Fedora + gEDA. They had no problem doing the common tasks, and never saw a text terminal. Perhaps we need to wipe out all the old docs and tutorials and start from scratch? Getting new users started with the right set of expectations and shortcuts might make a huge impact on first impressions. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
I don't know who developers of gEDA are, much less what their background is. For reference, I used to design PC/AT motherboards for a living ;-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, DJ Delorie [1]d...@delorie.com wrote: I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this. I gave a set of labs at DevCon to Windows-based hardware engineers. The environment was 100% Fedora + gEDA. They had no problem doing the common tasks, and never saw a text terminal. I certainly don't have a problem with the current state of software development with gEDA. I just think it's all in the matter of how you promote it. Since I returned to this, I go straight to the docs, tutorials and examples on your website and such. There's are still some things in the docs which could use some elaboration for new users, beside returning users like myself -- of which I'm glad to assist. Because it's always human nature to get in that state of resting on laurels to not be aware of the views in outside world. Perhaps we need to wipe out all the old docs and tutorials and start from scratch? Getting new users started with the right set of expectations and shortcuts might make a huge impact on first impressions. I wouldn't say wipeout, from looking at the current state of documentation, there's been a huge amount of work done there. I would suggest just making some additions and editing some parts to bring some attention to all of the important features. But I still think one of the most important items to include right smack dab on the front page of [2]www.gplgeda.org is a Feature list which promotes the all the powerful features of this. You want to grab attention of the community, then you have to push that information. They won't come knocking on your door. One thing I do personally since I'm a returning user, is scour the geda mailing list and collect into a text file, all the relevant information from the many postings about the available features within this tool suite. This helps me basically catchup on what I've missed, and also make comparisons. It's always in our nature to make comparisons. =Dan References 1. mailto:d...@delorie.com 2. http://www.gplgeda.org/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
I agree. I find the two-letter commands to be very fast to use. They're one of the main reasons why I prefer gschem to the expensive proprietary program I used at my last job. But maybe that's just because I'm a vi user. ;) On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Mark Rages markra...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:22 AM, John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: If anyone has some time for planning user interface changes, I have a few low level ideas of what is stopping development toward complex features with ease of use. 1. The double keystrokes in gschem need to become single strokes to match with every other UI anywhwere, so de facto standard key commands can be adopted for cut, paste, etc. The double keystrokes in gschem are excellent UI. Not as quick to grasp at first, but very very good in practice. When you use a CAD program like gschem one hand stays on the keyboard and one on the mouse. Using modifier keys (control, alt, shift, meta, etc.) comfortably requires two hands on the keyboard. So switching to standard controls would cause us users to constantly move one hand from mouse to keyboard and back. The standard control keys were designed for users of word processing systems, where both hands are already on the keyboard (and unadorned letter keys are already spoken for.) Furthermore, the two-letter abbreviations allow commands to be grouped together logically, which makes them easier to remember than whatever random control keys happens to be available. I think gschem has a pretty good interface. I only wish PCB used the same shortcuts instead of the random keys it has now. Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 10:33:51AM -0400, Bob Paddock wrote: we should find textbooks to study on GUI design Further Reading And of course not forgetting Shniederman's 8 golden rules of user interface design, it's pretty concise. http://faculty.washington.edu/jtenenbg/courses/360/f04/sessions/schneidermanGoldenRules.html ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
ditto...although I only used it for one digital board. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Dan Roganti [1]ragoo...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/08/2011 03:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: The good part of kicad was, that producing a PCB is easily possible even if you know nothing about the tool. But getting to more advanced features was hard to impossible within the time i tried it. Now comes the catch: When i was a teenager, i did an electronics project in high school. Not having access to the internet and not knowing anything about OSS (i dont think gEDA existed back then), i got a copy of Orcad for DOS (it was ancient even back then). But, within a day i was able to enter my first test schematics and produce something that looked like a PCB yes, OrCad was a very powerful eda tool and to a certain extent quite intuitive. I used this for many years back then. . . . Now the question is, why isn't there any OSS EDA tool out there that combines the availability of complex features with ease of use like Orcad did 20 years ago? I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this. If there were one, i'd be happy to throw money at it, to help it being developed. Attila Kinali I also agree. I would be willing to do the same. I noticed somewhere on the geda website that some arrangement has been made already with Linuxfund.org to help toward this cause. I only see a mention of the PCB tool - and no mention of gSchem or others. I wonder if someone can clarify this here. I think this is one more reason to compile a concise list of features contained in this tool suite as an overview to help new or returning users to see the importance of this project. =Dan ___ geda-user mailing list [2]geda-user@moria.seul.org [3]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:ragoo...@gmail.com 2. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 3. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 09:22 -0500, John Griessen wrote: If anyone has some time for planning user interface changes, I have a few low level ideas Yes, a few people including me voted for this for years. That was one of the reasons for me starting my ruby gschem clone one year ago. Maybe the wedana html5 clone will support a new user interface? But for gschem: Some people seems to really love the current behaviour. For me, I never loved the many tool changes, and I was never able to remember all the key combinations. er is edit rotate, ve is view extend. For the later I am not really sure -- have not used gschem for a year. But because some people love the current behaviour, our only chance may be to add an additional alternative mode, which may be not really easy. When we are allowed to make that dramatic changes at all? Moving elements without have to select it first is really nice. And drag select and zoom into window if started on a void area. And panning if we move an element with middle mouse button. And of course starting nets when hitting pin or net ends. All without having to change the tool. That is fun for new users and part time users. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 11:05 AM, Mark Rages wrote: The double keystrokes in gschem are excellent UI. Not as quick to grasp at first, but very very good in practice. . . . I think gschem has a pretty good interface. I only wish PCB used the same shortcuts instead of the random keys it has now. Moving gschem to single strokes would allow better matching of it with PCB, and all the rest, without stopping any good keyboard-via-non-dominant-hand plus mouse-via-dominant-hand computer driving. [jg]I know -- I've done chip layout for pay -- about 28 months worth. On 09/08/2011 11:32 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: Any schematic will fit on any size page, gschem always scales to fit. [jg]I know there is no scale in gschem -- but there is a mismatch of size apparent to a new user because the default page border is out of whack with the symbols. On 09/08/2011 11:32 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: I see no need for a third GUI when there are no other buttons needed. [jg]The function is merely suggested as a learning and reminder device for new and infrequently returning users. On 09/08/2011 11:32 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: Use of cut and paste buffers needs to be invisible by default and otional with a workaround that does not require knowing they exist. I almost never use cut and paste in PCB, and when I do (usually for moving the whole board around), I use the standard Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V keystrokes. [jg]Great! This one's already done. It's been a couple months since I've done a layout. I forgot. On 09/08/2011 11:44 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: Let's commission a multi-million dollar study of thousands of projects to see what the best size is. Or just pick a new one;-) [jg]It's mostly about getting some of these beginner things into the defaults. On 09/08/2011 11:50 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: I certainly don't have a problem with the current state of software development with gEDA. I just think it's all in the matter of how you promote it. Since I returned to this, I go straight to the docs, tutorials and examples on your website and such. There's are still some things in the docs which could use some elaboration for new users, beside returning users like myself - [jg]I think DJs docs are fabulous too. John Griessen -- Ecosensory ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
Attila Kinali: ... One easy way to acheive that is to use the first letter of the most commonly used word for that operation (it does not need to be in every language, just using english is enough). ... Don't ever assume that a non native engligh speaker will understand thoose words or view them as anything else than some random characters lumped together. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 11:28 AM, asom...@gmail.com wrote: I find the two-letter commands to be very fast to use. They're one of the main reasons why I prefer gschem to the expensive proprietary program I used at my last job. But maybe that's just because I'm a vi user.;) I think the double strokes could be kept as a settings option, but that would make writing docs hard with two ways to do things. We will always have that problem to a degree, because key bindings are user configurable. How do you teach it when you've changed all the keys to suit yourself? Changing all the keys is common for the speed-layer-outers among us, but I'd still like to see more commonality with mainstream for gschem. Single stroke key commands leaves you with maybe 40 unshifted commands you can do... Seems like enough to me. I bet that after implementing a user configurability like PCB has, and someone, (me), creating a set of commands that single stroke maps to the same action sequences as the double stroke commands, and writing some tutorials, (me), the numbers of future users and tutorials would go to the single stroke and double would be a few people. The number of people using it one way or the other would be voted for with tutorials written and promoted. gschem is not as key binding configurable as PCB as far as I can tell. Adding that would be a fine goal. We should be able to program a gschem single key binding action sequence without a recompile that: selects an object and enables drag on mouse click, continues after mouse up in same mode where next mouse click selects and drags to move. To get out of that mode you would go to the menus or click a button. John -- Ecosensory ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/08/2011 01:01 PM, Karl Hammar wrote: Don't ever assume that a non native engligh speaker will understand thoose words or view them as anything else than some random characters lumped together. Another reason gschem would benefit from no-recompile-required key binding configurability with action sequences. Besides keys, they can go to menu picks or buttons with user language usage hints. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 20:01:33 +0200 (CEST) k...@aspodata.se (Karl Hammar) wrote: Attila Kinali: ... One easy way to acheive that is to use the first letter of the most commonly used word for that operation (it does not need to be in every language, just using english is enough). ... Don't ever assume that a non native engligh speaker will understand thoose words or view them as anything else than some random characters lumped together. Yes, but i somehow expect that anyone doing EE does know english. There are very few parts for which you can get non-english documentation. I choose english here as the least common denominator. And even if you do not understand the words in the first place, they might make some sense to 99% of the people. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 17:50:33 +0200 Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: For me, I never loved the many tool changes, and I was never able to remember all the key combinations. er is edit rotate, ve is view extend. For the later I am not really sure -- have not used gschem for a year. Don't forget, while “ve” is View Extents, “ev” alters all invisible text and attributes making them visible! It is not like “en” which just toggles the display mode to show invisible text, but “ev” actually changes the entities. If you don't realize what happened and undo it right away, you will basically screw up the whole schematic. (I think “ev” action should be removed or at least prompt for confirmation; I've said so before on this list.) Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted?
On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 07:15:05AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A similar solution in PCB would be neat. if VCC and GND are shorted, pick a random GND pin and a random VCC pin. Find a path between them and show it as a orange dotted line. This could later be extended to find either the shortest orange dotted line, or the point on the board where several such lines meet. Yes, plenty of possible algorithms - the one that I though of was: Why are you all looking for an algorithm? Since pcb warns, it _already_ found the short. So the algorithm is already in place and is working fine. The problem here seems to be that the warning message is less-than-optimal. The warning message should also include the exact location of the (already) found error. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted?
Why are you all looking for an algorithm? Since pcb warns, it _already_ found the short. So the algorithm is already in place and is working fine. It hasn't found a short, it has found that two nets are connected which shouldn't be. Subtle difference, but it's a big deal when you're trying to fix it. The warning message should also include the exact location of the (already) found error. Finding the exact (or even best) location is what we're trying to figure out. PCB's algorithm doesn't find the location, only the change in connectivity. The spot it chooses to tag the short rarely has anything to do with the spot that actually caused it. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
Attila Kinali: k...@aspodata.se (Karl Hammar) wrote: Attila Kinali: One easy way to acheive that is to use the first letter of the most commonly used word for that operation (it does not need to be in every language, just using english is enough). Don't ever assume that a non native engligh speaker will understand thoose words or view them as anything else than some random characters lumped together. Yes, but i somehow expect that anyone doing EE does know english. Note that there is a big difference between understanding a, a textbook where you can get words meaning from context and where the main subject is understanding of physics and formulas b, a single word in isolation Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Colin D Bennett co...@gibibit.com wrote: On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 17:50:33 +0200 Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: For me, I never loved the many tool changes, and I was never able to remember all the key combinations. er is edit rotate, ve is view extend. For the later I am not really sure -- have not used gschem for a year. Don't forget, while “ve” is View Extents, “ev” alters all invisible text and attributes making them visible! It is not like “en” which just toggles the display mode to show invisible text, but “ev” actually changes the entities. If you don't realize what happened and undo it right away, you will basically screw up the whole schematic. (I think “ev” action should be removed or at least prompt for confirmation; I've said so before on this list.) Regards, Colin Agree. Please file a bug. Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:51 AM, John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: On 09/08/2011 11:05 AM, Mark Rages wrote: The double keystrokes in gschem are excellent UI. Not as quick to grasp at first, but very very good in practice. . . . I think gschem has a pretty good interface. I only wish PCB used the same shortcuts instead of the random keys it has now. Moving gschem to single strokes would allow better matching of it with PCB, and all the rest, without stopping any good keyboard-via-non-dominant-hand plus mouse-via-dominant-hand computer driving. Many of the pcb shortcuts require holding shift or control or alt while pressing a key. This requires two hands to do comfortably / safely. Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
El 08/09/11 16:50, Stefan Salewski escribió: Yes, a few people including me voted for this for years. That was one of the reasons for me starting my ruby gschem clone one year ago. Maybe the wedana html5 clone will support a new user interface? But for gschem: Some people seems to really love the current behaviour. ... But because some people love the current behaviour, our only chance may be to add an additional alternative mode, which may be not really easy. When we are allowed to make that dramatic changes at all? As one of the people who likes the two key shortcut method (due to being able to mouse with one hand and keyboard with the other, a bit like when playing an FPS :-)) a simple method to satisfy everyone is make the keyboard shortcuts be in a configuration file. We did this for a game (Oolite, an Elite clone). Have sensible defaults, but an alternative that's easily loaded just by changing the configuration. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 19:08 +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: Hello everyone, I tried adding 0Volt sources for the series-creating device and 0Amp current sources for the paralleling device. But no avail. The nets are still disjoint in the second case. Would it help it I posted a schematic? Could anyone shed some light please? I think it is a known issue that you can't place nets (wires) inside symbols - only pins, attributes and graphical elements. Other than that - I'm not sure what issue you might be running into. Regards, -- Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 07:08:45PM +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: I tried adding 0Volt sources for the series-creating device and 0Amp current sources for the paralleling device. But no avail. The nets are still disjoint in the second case. Would it help it I posted a schematic? Could anyone shed some light please? Please tell us what version of gschem and gnetlist you're using. I remember a similar bug has been fixed in gEDA 1.7.1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/geda/+bug/698395 Best regards, -- Krzysztof Kościuszkiewicz Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -- Leonardo da Vinci ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
Jared Casper wrote: I read this comment to mean that the relative scale of the default titlebox and default symbol library should be such that if you print a page contained within the titleblock out on an A/letter size paper, the symbols are a reasonable size. I don't have time to check now, but iirc, the default titlebox is way to small for size of the default symbols (I replaced the default titlebox with my own bigger one on probably the second day of using gschem). My solution: A titleblock symbol that is really just that. A box, which contains the title, date, version and author, to be printed on the bottom of a page. Because these are global attributes, they can be edited wholesale with the attribute editing dialog. But the symbol includes no frame. I draw the frame after the fact to fit the schematic. The ability to expand on demand is handy, if the circuit needs some more components. http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/symbols/titleblock/title-block.sym ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 23:16 +0200, Krzysztof Kościuszkiewicz wrote: On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 07:08:45PM +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: I tried adding 0Volt sources for the series-creating device and 0Amp current sources for the paralleling device. But no avail. The nets are still disjoint in the second case. Would it help it I posted a schematic? Could anyone shed some light please? Please tell us what version of gschem and gnetlist you're using. I remember a similar bug has been fixed in gEDA 1.7.1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/geda/+bug/698395 That is related, but referred to a short-circuit net in a schematic file. I'm not certain this is sufficient to allow nets within a symbol. (Although it might just work now). Posting the schematics / symbols in question would be a help for any further diagnostic, but it sounds like you might be trying to do something which isn't supported. -- Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 13:43 -0600, Mark Rages wrote: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Colin D Bennett co...@gibibit.com wrote: On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 17:50:33 +0200 Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: For me, I never loved the many tool changes, and I was never able to remember all the key combinations. er is edit rotate, ve is view extend. For the later I am not really sure -- have not used gschem for a year. Don't forget, while “ve” is View Extents, “ev” alters all invisible text and attributes making them visible! It is not like “en” which just toggles the display mode to show invisible text, but “ev” actually changes the entities. For my money, we could kill ev and its menu item completely. I don't think it serves any useful purpose, and has caused me many a headache. -- Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 13:10 -0500, John Griessen wrote: gschem is not as key binding configurable as PCB as far as I can tell. Adding that would be a fine goal. It is actually - its just not immediately obvious. Look in your $PREFIX/share/gEDA/system-gschemrc file and find: (define file-keymap '((w . file-new-window) (n . file-new) (o . file-open) (s . file-save) (e . page-close) ; yes this is okay; reusing page-close (a . file-save-as) (l . file-save-all) (p . file-print) (r . page-revert) ; yes this is okay; resuing page-revert (i . file-image) (t . file-script) (c . file-close-window) (q . file-quit))) (Those go with the second letter to 'f', which activates the file menu). Finally, the global keymap: ; All keys in the global-keymap *must* be unique (define global-keymap '((Escape . cancel) (a . add-keymap) (b . add-box-hotkey) (c . edit-copy-hotkey) (d . edit-delete) (e . edit-keymap) (f . file-keymap) (h . help-keymap) (i . add-component) (l . add-line-hotkey) (m . edit-move-hotkey) (n . add-net-hotkey) (o . options-keymap) (bracketright . options-scale-up-snap-size) (bracketleft . options-scale-down-snap-size) (p . page-keymap) (r . view-redraw) (s . edit-select) (t . attributes-keymap) (u . edit-undo) (v . view-keymap) (w . view-zoom-box-hotkey) (x . view-pan-hotkey) (Left . view-pan-left) (Right . view-pan-right) (Up . view-pan-up) (Down . view-pan-down) (y . buffer-keymap) (z . view-zoom-in-hotkey) (period . repeat-last-command) (Shift colon . edit-invoke-macro) (comma . misc-misc) (equal . misc-misc2) (Shift plus . misc-misc3) (Delete . edit-delete) (Shift greater . page-next) ; Deprecated; preserved for backward compat (Page_Down . page-next) (Shift less . page-prev) ; Deprecated; preserved for backward compat (Page_Up . page-prev) (Alt q . file-quit) (Shift B . add-bus-hotkey) (Shift H . hierarchy-keymap) (Shift U . edit-undo) (Shift R . edit-redo) (Shift Z . view-zoom-out-hotkey) (Control x . clipboard-cut) (Control c . clipboard-copy) (Control v . clipboard-paste-hotkey) (Control z . edit-undo) (Control y . edit-redo) (Control a . edit-select-all) (Control Shift A . edit-deselect))) ; finally set the keymap point to the newly created datastructure (define current-keymap global-keymap) Notice there are plenty of single-key bindings there already, for example, the group at the bottom. Hope that helps, -- Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, DJ Delorie [1]d...@delorie.com wrote: I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this. I gave a set of labs at DevCon to Windows-based hardware engineers. The environment was 100% Fedora + gEDA. They had no problem doing the common tasks, and never saw a text terminal. I recall now reading about this on some other thread last month but couldn't remember. I found the thread from last month. But now I went to your website and couldn't find any mention of this. I did see some of your work with the Renesas mcu and the geda workflow. I also found other search results about this subject regarding your work on other website and even youtube. Something like this should be front and center right on the gEDA website. Who's the webmaster for geda, this should be on there. At the very least there should be links on [2]gpleda.org pointing to this info.. =Dan References 1. mailto:d...@delorie.com 2. http://gpleda.org/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
But now I went to your website and couldn't find any mention of this. The info is here, under presentations and other info: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:16 PM, DJ Delorie [1]d...@delorie.com wrote: But now I went to your website and couldn't find any mention of this. The info is here, under presentations and other info: [2]http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/ aahh, yes, I see it now, on the same page with the Renesas project, thanks ! =Dan References 1. mailto:d...@delorie.com 2. http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: accel keys (was: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA)
DJ Delorie wrote: But gschem and pcb have completely different toolsets and common tasks. It would be difficult to make them the same outside of the usual common key mappings (cut, paste, undo). There are a few more that could potentially be matched: gschempcb * start drawing a net [n] start drawing a track [F2] * edit some text [ex] edit some text [n] * rotate by 90° [er]rotate by 90° [F9] + mouse click * find specific text [t shift-f]select by name (no accel, yet) * cut selected objects [del]cut selected objects [backspace] * draw a rectangle [b] draw a rectangle [F5] + mouse click * draw a circle [ai]draw a circle (no GUI tool) * edit attributes [ee] edit attributes (no accel, yet) * toggle rubberband [or]toggle rubberband (no accel, yet) * increase grid spacing []] increase grid spacing [ctrl-g] * decrease grid spacing [[] decrease grid spacing [ctrl-shift-g] * incr. line thickness (no accel) incr. line thickness [s] * decr. line thickness (no accel) incr. line thickness [shift-s] * toggle magnetic mode (no accel) crosshair snaps to pins and pads (no accel) * save [fs] save layout [ctrl-s] * save as [fa] save layout as [shift-ctrl-s] * open [fo] load layout (no accel) * new [fn] new layout [ctrl-n] * quit [alt-q] quit [ctrl-q] With a few exceptions I'd prefer the PCB accels. The most notable exception is [ctrl-n]. This is dangerously close to [n] and has fooled me more than once. A special case is edit text. In both applications, this really should be in place on the canvas triggered by double click. I hardly know any other application these days, that pops up a dialog. Did anyone ever try to build accel tables optimized for compatibility between gschem and PCB? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
John Griessen wrote: The number of people using it one way or the other would be voted for with tutorials written and promoted. ... and create quite some confusion during the process. Does not look like a good idea to me. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: key accels (was: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA)
Dylan Smith wrote: As one of the people who likes the two key shortcut method (due to being able to mouse with one hand and keyboard with the other, a bit like when playing an FPS :-)) Very much like with PCB -- Since layers are on [1], [2], [..] and tools are on [F1], F2], [..], me routing a board looks very much like someone playing starcraft 2. :-P IMHO, right hand on mouse, left hand on keyboard is not tied to two key accels at all. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
John Griessen wrote: Another reason gschem would benefit from no-recompile-required key binding configurability with action sequences. Besides keys, they can go to menu picks or buttons with user language usage hints. If gschem wouldn't mess with the menu widget, GTK would allow for accel configuration onb the fly. This works to an extend with PCB-gtk: Open the menu, move the mouse to the item to be configured and type whatever accel you are up to. This accel is immediately in effect. This is a standard feature of GTK applications. On a Gnome desktop you might have to set gnome - interface - can_change_accels in gconf-editor. The only aspect that does not work with PCB-gtk, is that the config is lost at the end of a session. I sometimes use it anyway, if a task calls for repeated application of menu actions that are accel-less by default. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
I have asked this question on this forum before but I never got a definitive answer so forgive me for asking it again. Does anyone know the theory behind the design of an electromagnetic bicycle. I thought it was bringing in magnetic fields close to a spinning metal disc but I'm not sure so I'm asking here. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: accel keys (was: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA)
There are some standard shortcuts that both gschem and pcb should be using by default: New Ctrl+N QuitCtrl+Q OpenCtrl+O SaveCtrl+S Save as Shift+Ctrl+S UndoCtrl+Z RedoShift+Ctrl+Z Select all Ctrl+A Select none Shift+Ctrl+A HelpF1 There should really be no controversy on this. Maybe we should ship a vi keys keymap for people who want u for undo, etc. For single-key bindings, it would then make sense to use (I'm thinking of pcb here): F2-F10 open window (DRC, library, message log, netlist, route style editor, layer editor, etc) F11fullscreen? F12text editor? Page upnext layer Page down prev layer Ctrl+PgUp next route style Ctrl+PgDn prev route style v via l line L lock tool a arc r rectangle R rotate tool t text T thermal h hole p polygon x delete tool Escarrow tool . . . etc I'm not sure how well this integrates with Kai's list of gschem/pcb correspondences. IMHO we should try to use single-key mappings everywhere, in both tools. As somebody mentioned, there are roughly 40 of them, which is more than enough for common tasks. We shouldn't have shortcuts for things like clear undo buffer. Why is this even a menu option? On a qwerty keyboard, Ctrl+[zxcva] can all easily be done with one hand. (On dvorak this is not the case, but those users are usually more comfortable remapping their keyboard shortcuts.) The other shortcuts are not common commands, so optimizing them for one-hand usage doesn't justify the loss in discoverability, IMO. *** In pcb it would be very easy to ship the new keymaps alongside the old ones, and add a Classic shortcuts option to the preferences dialog. I'm not sure how easy it would be in gschem, since the keymap could be mixed in with other scheme code. The existing keymap, especially when combined with the old pcb layer selector, gives the impression of an ancient and non-standard UI. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rob Butts r.but...@gmail.com wrote: I have asked this question on this forum before but I never got a definitive answer so forgive me for asking it again. Does anyone know the theory behind the design of an electromagnetic bicycle. I thought it was bringing in magnetic fields close to a spinning metal disc but I'm not sure so I'm asking here. Are you referring perhaps to an electromagnet brake? TLDR version. A moving conductor in a magnetic field produces an electric current which produces an electromagnetic field which oposes the initial magnetic field resulting in a braking effect. More detailed version: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=electromagnetic+brakel=1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
As in how to make one. What is the moving conductor? I have seen that site and don't understand it to the point where I can make one. There is and how to make one On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Geoff Swan [1]shinobi.j...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rob Butts [2]r.but...@gmail.com wrote: I have asked this question on this forum before but I never got a definitive answer so forgive me for asking it again. Does anyone know the theory behind the design of an electromagnetic bicycle. I thought it was bringing in magnetic fields close to a spinning metal disc but I'm not sure so I'm asking here. Are you referring perhaps to an electromagnet brake? TLDR version. A moving conductor in a magnetic field produces an electric current which produces an electromagnetic field which oposes the initial magnetic field resulting in a braking effect. More detailed version: [3]http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=electromagnetic+brakel=1 ___ geda-user mailing list [4]geda-user@moria.seul.org [5]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:shinobi.j...@gmail.com 2. mailto:r.but...@gmail.com 3. http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=electromagnetic+brakel=1 4. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 5. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
On Sep 8, 2011, at 7:16 PM, Rob Butts wrote: Does anyone know the theory behind the design of an electromagnetic bicycle. I thought it was bringing in magnetic fields close to a spinning metal disc but I'm not sure so I'm asking here. Do you mean an eddy current brake? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
I was just looking at that (the eddy current brake). Yes, what is needed to build a bike with a braking action is a magnetic force similar to pushing two magnets of the same pole towards each other. A bike where the resistance is not friction but a magnetic field resistance. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 9:35 PM, John Doty [1]j...@noqsi.com wrote: On Sep 8, 2011, at 7:16 PM, Rob Butts wrote: Does anyone know the theory behind the design of an electromagnetic bicycle. I thought it was bringing in magnetic fields close to a spinning metal disc but I'm not sure so I'm asking here. Do you mean an eddy current brake? [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [3]http://www.noqsi.com/ [4]j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list [5]geda-user@moria.seul.org [6]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:j...@noqsi.com 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake 3. http://www.noqsi.com/ 4. mailto:j...@noqsi.com 5. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 6. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
I've not looked into this in great detail myself, but I believe this physics suggests this could be as simple as a spinning metal (conductive) disk with a permanent magnet at an adjustable distance to the spinning disk. It sounds like you understand how it works, but are perhaps looking for the catch? I don't believe there is one... Note this works only as brake - however if you want the same phenomenon to work as a motor you are looking at a squirrel cage motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor). ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
So if I have an electromagnetic and I hold it next to the spinning metal disc as I increase the intensity of the magnetic field the metal disc should be harder to spin? Define conductive? The eddy current breaks says non-ferromagnetic which means to me not having any magnetic properties like aluminum. I'm strictly interested in generating the magnetic resistance. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Geoff Swan [1]shinobi.j...@gmail.com wrote: I've not looked into this in great detail myself, but I believe this physics suggests this could be as simple as a spinning metal (conductive) disk with a permanent magnet at an adjustable distance to the spinning disk. It sounds like you understand how it works, but are perhaps looking for the catch? I don't believe there is one... Note this works only as brake - however if you want the same phenomenon to work as a motor you are looking at a squirrel cage motor ([2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor). ___ geda-user mailing list [3]geda-user@moria.seul.org [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:shinobi.j...@gmail.com 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor 3. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Electromagnetic bike
So if I have an electromagnetic and I hold it next to the spinning metal disc as I increase the intensity of the magnetic field the metal disc should be harder to spin? Yes. Define conductive? The eddy current breaks says non-ferromagnetic which means to me not having any magnetic properties like aluminum. Conducts electricity. Doesn't magnetise. Eg aluminium, copper. NOT iron. I'm strictly interested in generating the magnetic resistance. There is no catch. Generate away. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
