Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, 2011-09-10 at 10:19 +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 22:20, Dan Roganti ragoo...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't say wipeout, from looking at the current state of documentation, there's been a huge amount of work done there. I would suggest just making some additions and editing some parts to bring some attention to all of the important features. +1. There's lots of good documentation, but there are things missing and lots of details need to be added. I think it would be a very good idea to have some collection of documents (or at least link to these). I'm willing to help with the documentation since I do use gEDA regularly (and i'm not much help with the programming). ~Abhijit What we really should consider: A lot of documentation can be bad. Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. A lot of documentation can make people think that it is very complicated. For gEDA/PCB we have collected a lot of documentation over the years -- some is obsolete/outdated/redundant now or covers details, which most people are not interested in -- at least not when starting with gEDA/PCB. Send to geda-user: Sat Sep 10 13:34:27 CEST 2011 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
Hi all... The problem is solved with the latest gnetlist (1.7.1). Thanks so much! I will be documenting the library of bond graph elements (symbols and definitions). Just wanted to know if anyone uses bond graphs for simulation? Regards, ~Abhijit On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 18:08, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 11:32 +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: Thank you for your inputs. Please tell us what version of gschem and gnetlist you're using. I'm using the latest stable release of gEDA (1.6.2-20110115) I compiled it from the source tarball here: http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:download (There is no --version switch for gnetlist, right?) I remember a similar bug has been fixed in gEDA 1.7.1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/geda/+bug/698395 I'm compiling 1.7.1 now. Will let you know as soon as i'm done. What you're doing looks legit, and but would certainly (without the 0-ohm resistors at least), have hit the above mentioned bug. Rather than build from a release tarball, you might prefer to grab git HEAD and test with that. git clone git://git.gpleda.org/gaf.git We've been a bit tardy with making releases of our latest and greatest code. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
On Sat, 2011-09-10 at 19:49 +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: Hi all... The problem is solved with the latest gnetlist (1.7.1). Thanks so much! I will be documenting the library of bond graph elements (symbols and definitions). Just wanted to know if anyone uses bond graphs for simulation? Its not a concept I've come across before. Do you have a simple reference as to where (and how) they are used? -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, 2011-09-10 at 13:35 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote: A lot of documentation can be bad. Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. A lot of documentation can make people think that it is very complicated. This can be true if you don't manage the reveal well. IMO, what we could do with is a showcase of the kinds of things people have done with the tools - simple, complex and in-between, so people can gain confidence that the tools can do what they want them to do, before having even picked them up. Others have done good things with gEDA - haven't torn their hair out and given up... it _CAN_ be used to make a relatively complex design. There is a place for technical documentation on file-formats, but a getting started guide should not look like a Lord of the Rings style manuscript ;) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
Very good point! and if I may add: ALL contained in ONE place, sufficiently reviewed to make it 100% correct with the current version of the tool(s) it is intended to be use with (and stated in the document itself). From my experience, ONE person is accepted as the book boss and is responsible for organizing/coordinating the development/revisions of ALL user documentation. I also believe the book boss should have a user perspective, rather than a developer perspective for the user documentation. If developer documentation is to be (re)organized as well, the same oversight model should be used, and I think a developer should have coordination duties. Just my 0.02 (your favorite currency here...USD, pounds, Euros, etc...) -J On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:35 AM, Stefan Salewski [1]m...@ssalewski.de wrote: On Sat, 2011-09-10 at 10:19 +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 22:20, Dan Roganti [2]ragoo...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't say wipeout, from looking at the current state of documentation, there's been a huge amount of work done there. I would suggest just making some additions and editing some parts to bring some attention to all of the important features. +1. There's lots of good documentation, but there are things missing and lots of details need to be added. I think it would be a very good idea to have some collection of documents (or at least link to these). I'm willing to help with the documentation since I do use gEDA regularly (and i'm not much help with the programming). ~Abhijit What we really should consider: A lot of documentation can be bad. Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. A lot of documentation can make people think that it is very complicated. For gEDA/PCB we have collected a lot of documentation over the years -- some is obsolete/outdated/redundant now or covers details, which most people are not interested in -- at least not when starting with gEDA/PCB. Send to geda-user: Sat Sep 10 13:34:27 CEST 2011 ___ geda-user mailing list [3]geda-user@moria.seul.org [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:m...@ssalewski.de 2. mailto:ragoo...@gmail.com 3. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. I agree with the idea, but the thing is, the Apple software that doesn't need documentation doesn't do a whole lot. I don't know of any sufficiently powerful tool, especially CAD, that doesn't require some time learning how to use the thing. Try to sit down in front of SolidWorks and pump out a widget without first reading some documentation; build a 3d animation in 3d Studio or Maia; pump out a board in Orcad. Sufficiently powerful tools need learning. People build careers out of being very good at using just one of these tools. A lot of documentation can make people think that it is very complicated. IMHO, it _IS_ very complicated (relatively), and necessarily so. There are a lot of options that need considered, a lot of details to get right, a lot of workflows to support, etc.. But complicated doesn't have to mean hard to use and not intuitive. For gEDA/PCB we have collected a lot of documentation over the years -- some is obsolete/outdated/redundant now or covers details, which most people are not interested in -- at least not when starting with gEDA/PCB. For me, there is no such thing as too much documentation. The problem is when there is too much obsolete and just plain wrong documentation and not enough of the right kind of documentation. Jared ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: EZBOARD -- use gEDA without knowing it
On 09/10/2011 10:35 AM, Jared Casper wrote: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. I agree with the idea, but the thing is, the Apple software that doesn't need documentation doesn't do a whole lot. Yes, and the hobby CAD users want it to be that easy and they get it with limitations from places like PCBExpress. I would not hurt to have an EZBOARD mode where most features are hidden and you can make a mixed through hole and surface mount arduino compatible shield board with a small range of standard components as EZBOARD as falling off a truck. If all the docs for that had the different EZBOARD mode name, there would be no fear of the other features by the low aiming users. It would not hurt either if that name was picked out carefully and registered instead of depending on its inherent unpronouncability, (gEDA, gschem), to keep others from claiming the name. John ezboard might even be available... EzBoard has now switched all its boards to Yuku. On September 8, 2011 Yuku was acquired by CrowdGather, Inc.[5] The acquisition included all legacy ezboard domains. [6] [edit] ezboard history ezboard is a web application, created in 1996[7] by Vanchau Nguyen. One of the earliest user-customisable online message board providers, it quickly grew. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
There is a problem that seems to occur often with open source software. Since it is created by programmers to scratch their particular itch, they are more concerned with the programming and getting it working to solve their problem. Other than bug fixes that affect their use of the program, their motivation to fix bugs and do documentation, release management, etc. is somewhat less. Consider Apple, their motivation is a bit different. It is user oriented so that they can extract the maximum amount of dollars from said customer, (Disclaimer, I am one.) This changes a number of priorities. Since Apple must provide support, in various forms to include documentation, customer phone support, in-store support and training, minimizing these costs is important. Apple has a yearly version cycle for many of its programs. This allows them to concentrate on bug fixes and interface and documentation before release. Open source with irregular updates will always have problems keeping documentation in sync with the program. Apple concentrates on a 'slick', graphical interface on their programs. However, a better place to look is at OS X itself. OS X is a Unix underneath the graphic interface. The command line is available and works for those rare instances when you need to go beyond the 98 percent of tasks that are usually done and covered by the graphic interface. I have used a couple of EDA tools over the last few years. Most had horrible interfaces. They won't change because so many people have invested so much time learning them and don't want to learn any new changes, let alone a new interface how ever much better it is and no matter how much easier and more productive it will make them. As a new and or occasional user, I want that new and easier, more productive interface. (Rant Off!) Ross On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:35 AM, Jared Casper wrote: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Stefan Salewski m...@ssalewski.de wrote: Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. I agree with the idea, but the thing is, the Apple software that doesn't need documentation doesn't do a whole lot. I don't know of any sufficiently powerful tool, especially CAD, that doesn't require some time learning how to use the thing. Try to sit down in front of SolidWorks and pump out a widget without first reading some documentation; build a 3d animation in 3d Studio or Maia; pump out a board in Orcad. Sufficiently powerful tools need learning. People build careers out of being very good at using just one of these tools. A lot of documentation can make people think that it is very complicated. IMHO, it _IS_ very complicated (relatively), and necessarily so. There are a lot of options that need considered, a lot of details to get right, a lot of workflows to support, etc.. But complicated doesn't have to mean hard to use and not intuitive. For gEDA/PCB we have collected a lot of documentation over the years -- some is obsolete/outdated/redundant now or covers details, which most people are not interested in -- at least not when starting with gEDA/PCB. For me, there is no such thing as too much documentation. The problem is when there is too much obsolete and just plain wrong documentation and not enough of the right kind of documentation. Jared ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
A rating function for the documentations would be handy. I think this feedback is very important and you get an overview what is good or bad. Guess, the implemantation isn't tricky. best regards Felix ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wire-only Symbols - Netlist problems
On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:19 AM, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: The problem is solved with the latest gnetlist (1.7.1). Thanks so much! I will be documenting the library of bond graph elements (symbols and definitions). Just wanted to know if anyone uses bond graphs for simulation? No, but I might now that you've made this possible with gEDA. How about publishing this on gedasymbols.org? This is a fine example of what makes gEDA a superior toolkit: it's a powerful foundation for innovative approaches to design automation, rather than merely being an electronic substitute for a drafting board. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: EZBOARD -- use gEDA without knowing it
I agree with the idea, but the thing is, the Apple software that doesn't need documentation doesn't do a whole lot. Ahem, Hyper Card, people are still mourning for it. -CN ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: PCB segfaults when the Route style button is clicked
Hello,
I'm using PCB from git master (9dde48253c..) and it segfaults
when the Route Styles button is clicked. Here's how to reproduce:
1. use PCB to make an empty pcb file
2. start PCB again and load the empty file with File - Load layout
3. choose Power route style, then click on the Route Styles button
to bring up the dialog; close the dialog
4. choose Signal route style, then click on the Route Styles button
to bring up the dialog; close the dialog
5. repeat steps 3 and 4 in order, until PCB segfaults
Here is the backtrace:
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x738fc90a in strcmp () from /lib/libc.so.6
(gdb) bt
#0 0x738fc90a in strcmp () from /lib/libc.so.6
#1 0x7669347f in gtk_entry_set_text () from
/usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#2 0x00527e64 in dialog_style_changed_cb (combo=0x16d1170,
dialog=0x7fffd4c0)
at hid/gtk/ghid-route-style-selector.c:127
#3 0x74b6f1fe in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#4 0x74b8008b in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#5 0x74b897aa in g_signal_emit_valist () from
/usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#6 0x74b89952 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#7 0x76675fea in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#8 0x7667aab9 in gtk_combo_box_set_active_iter () from
/usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#9 0x00528776 in ghid_route_style_selector_edit_dialog (rss=0xb4c510)
at hid/gtk/ghid-route-style-selector.c:237
#10 0x00528aa6 in edit_button_cb (btn=0xb4b490, rss=0xb4c510)
at hid/gtk/ghid-route-style-selector.c:296
#11 0x74b6f1fe in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#12 0x74b8008b in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#13 0x74b897aa in g_signal_emit_valist () from
/usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#14 0x74b89952 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#15 0x766574e5 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#16 0x74b6f1fe in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#17 0x74b7f815 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#18 0x74b897aa in g_signal_emit_valist () from
/usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#19 0x74b89952 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#20 0x7665630d in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#21 0x767000d8 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#22 0x74b6f1fe in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#23 0x74b7fe9d in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#24 0x74b8956b in g_signal_emit_valist () from
/usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#25 0x74b89952 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#26 0x76819081 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#27 0x766fe2d3 in gtk_propagate_event () from
/usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#28 0x766fe633 in gtk_main_do_event () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#29 0x7637384c in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0
#30 0x76c3a29d in g_main_context_dispatch () from
/usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#31 0x76c3aa78 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#32 0x76c3b0ba in g_main_loop_run () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#33 0x766fd687 in gtk_main () from /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
#34 0x0051bfaa in ghid_do_export (options=0x0) at
hid/gtk/gui-top-window.c:1708
#35 0x00487bce in main (argc=1, argv=0x7fffe618) at main.c:1948
Some information you might find useful:
#2 0x00527e64 in dialog_style_changed_cb (combo=0x16d1170,
dialog=0x7fffd4c0)
at hid/gtk/ghid-route-style-selector.c:127
127 gtk_entry_set_text (GTK_ENTRY (dialog-name_entry), style-rst-Name);
(gdb) p *style-rst
$1 = {Thick = 0, Diameter = 9424144, Hole = 0, Keepaway = 38654705664,
Name = 0x67034c Address 0x67034c out of bounds, index = 46}
(gdb) p *style
$2 = {temporary = 0, action = 0xb4b550, button = 0xb4c6b0, menu_item =
0xb753c0, rref = 0x9e0580,
rst = 0x8fcd78, sig_id = 1625}
--
Ivan Stankovic, poke...@fly.srk.fer.hr
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm;
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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
Am 10.09.2011 um 13:35 schrieb Stefan Salewski: A lot of documentation can be bad. Ha! Now that's exactly the right answer to somebody offering writing documentation. Consider the toys from the big company with the damaged fruit: A reason for the success of the toys is that documentations seems to be not needed. That's possible for an EDA tool as well, of course. It requires an intuitive design. Self-explaining features, pure technical relations being hidden and automatic, everything connected so you can't miss something or do something wrong, perhaps integrated tutorials (SolidWorks does that). But how close is gEDA here? To be honest, I think gEDA couldn't be farther away. It can't even agree on an equivalent GUI design for both major tools, gschem and pcb. Instead of doing something about that, lots of discussions about picky details on keyboard accelerators. Using a keyboard to do anything but writing text is a thing of the past, to start with. To get an idea of a fairly intuitive tool, have a look at Fritzing. Abhijit, please go ahead. Fresh tutorials and HowTos are most welcome. And please let me know when it's time to put the G-code exporter HowTo there. In case you don't want to do this yourself. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Using a keyboard to do anything but writing text is a thing of the past, to start with. I couldn't disagree more. I only want to use the mouse for things that absolutely require a mouse (drawing things mostly). If I have to use the mouse to click buttons or menus, etc. I consider that a complete failure. To get an idea of a fairly intuitive tool, have a look at Fritzing. gEDA is as far away from Fritzing as Word is from NotePad. Jared ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 09/10/2011 06:20 PM, Jared Casper wrote: gEDA is as far away from Fritzing as Word is from NotePad. Jared But they both have many of the same low level primitive commands and actions. I think you could base two apps on the same code and many of the users would never know, since some are so little into craft and so into speed, they would never read about the crafty details. JG PS Fritzing is not all bad... I think it aims to be the arduino-compatible development tool for hardware. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 6:09 PM, John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com wrote: But they both have many of the same low level primitive commands and actions. I think you could base two apps on the same code and many of the users would never know, since some are so little into craft and so into speed, they would never read about the crafty details. True. IMHO though, for an app like Fritzing doesn't seem to be the core to be the hard part, the GUI is. For an app like gEDA both the core and GUI are hard. JG PS Fritzing is not all bad... I think it aims to be the arduino-compatible development tool for hardware. Absolutely, never said it was bad. :) From what I've seen, Fritzing is a great app for what it aims to be. Jared ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB segfaults when the Route style button is clicked
Ivan Stankovic wrote: I'm using PCB from git master (9dde48253c..) and it segfaults when the Route Styles button is clicked. Here's how to reproduce: 1. use PCB to make an empty pcb file 2. start PCB again and load the empty file with File - Load layout 3. choose Power route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 4. choose Signal route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 5. repeat steps 3 and 4 in order, until PCB segfaults I can confirm. Current git head PCB segfaults on me, too. Sometimes on first iteration, sometimes later. Interestingly, it does not want to segfault if I do not load the previously saved empty layout. At step 3 I notice a difference: With the reloaded layout, the field for the route style name is empty. Maybe, this is a hint for the cause. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Used LPKF ProtoMat S62 PCB Router for sale
hi! im truly interest in this article... do you still have it? thanks for all the info. My secondary e-mail is: droa.or...@gmail.com. Bob Paddock wrote: In the past (see list archives) I'd mentioned that I'd worked with a LPKF ProtoMat S62 circuit board router. The owner of that equipment passed on unexpectedly. The estate asked me to pass on this message, to anyone that might put the equipment to good use: LPKF ProtoMat S62 for sale: http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s62.htm I am looking to sell our circuit board plotter. I'm selling the plotter, press, computer, vacuum pump, UV lamp and miscellaneous consumables for $20,000.00. Plotter and peripheral equipment produce multilayer PCBs, eight layers seems to be the max, up to 9 in x 12 in size, with plated through-hole support. It took me about four hours to make a four layer board the first time I used this system. I know the equipment was well take care of, and cost about $60k+ when it was bought new in 2006. Sold only as the complete set and you must pick it up in the Pittsburgh/Cleveland region, due to the weight, which is several hundred pounds for the press alone. May be able to get it delivered via one of the principles pickup truck if necessary. For full disclosure I was offered a commission to sell this, which I declined, just want to see the family move on with their lives, and funerals are far more expensive than most people realize. Send me an email off list if you are interested. I might see if I can get the Boss to buy this but business is very slow, so I'm reasonably sure the accounts will kill this idea. Life is short, we never know when our number is going to be up... -- http://blog.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ http://www.unusualresearch.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/gEDA-user%3A-Used-LPKF-ProtoMat-S62-PCB-Router-for-sale-tp28717120p32439385.html Sent from the gEDA - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On 11/09/2011 9:13 AM, Markus Hitter [1]m...@jump-ing.de wrote: But how close is gEDA here? To be honest, I think gEDA couldn't be farther away. It can't even agree on an equivalent GUI design for both major tools, gschem and pcb. Instead of doing something about that, lots of discussions about picky details on keyboard accelerators. Using a keyboard to do anything but writing text is a thing of the past, to start with. I think you will find that a pretty much all high end commercial CAD tools put a lot of effort into getting the keyboard accelerators right. Your concept of the keyboard being only for text has no basis in any CAD tool I have ever heard of. To get an idea of a fairly intuitive tool, have a look at Fritzing. Fritzing is great, so is intuitive design. I don't really understand why gEDA gets slammed on its UI so much. It is different, and like anything worth learning takes some effort. References 1. mailto:m...@jump-ing.de ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 04:20:27PM -0700, Jared Casper wrote: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Using a keyboard to do anything but writing text is a thing of the past, to start with. I couldn't disagree more. I only want to use the mouse for things that absolutely require a mouse (drawing things mostly). If I have to use the mouse to click buttons or menus, etc. I consider that a complete failure. I don't even have a mouse connected most of the time. I plug one in when I need to draw, that's it. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Do whatever you want. Do what you think is important. Everybody is an individual. --Ron Paul ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB segfaults when the Route style button is clicked
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 04:53:08AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Ivan Stankovic wrote: I'm using PCB from git master (9dde48253c..) and it segfaults when the Route Styles button is clicked. Here's how to reproduce: 1. use PCB to make an empty pcb file 2. start PCB again and load the empty file with File - Load layout 3. choose Power route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 4. choose Signal route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 5. repeat steps 3 and 4 in order, until PCB segfaults I can confirm. Current git head PCB segfaults on me, too. Sometimes on first iteration, sometimes later. Interestingly, it does not want to segfault if I do not load the previously saved empty layout. At step 3 I notice a difference: With the reloaded layout, the field for the route style name is empty. Maybe, this is a hint for the cause. Neat, confirmed. Notice also that the values become increasingly corrupted with each load. I'm guessing that in the RouteStylesChanged action, I should just tear down and re-create the route style selector. The selector has a pointer into pcb's route style data, which probably gets freed when a new board is loaded. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Do whatever you want. Do what you think is important. Everybody is an individual. --Ron Paul ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 04:42, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Am 10.09.2011 um 13:35 schrieb Stefan Salewski: A lot of documentation can be bad. Ha! Now that's exactly the right answer to somebody offering writing documentation. :) I agree that too much documentation /can/ be bad - if its in a non-searchable, badly written form, etc. E.g. if one has to dig through volumes of massive stuff just to do simple tasks then it is a bad thing. But having lots of searchable (over the internet) docs is much better. For example, I imagine a beginner will run a [google] search for gEDA beginners guide or gSchem Tutorial whereas an advanced user will be searching for say PCB complete reference or the keywords pertaining to a particular issue. At the moment, i feel that we should look at the docs from the user perspective, figure out what is missing and then fill in the gaps first. For example, i find that the documentation for creating hierarchical designs (schematics encapsulated inside a gschem symbol) is rather scattered so I'm going to start off with that first. If anyone has already written this please let me know! From my experience, ONE person is accepted as the book boss and is responsible for organizing/coordinating the development/revisions of ALL user documentation. +1. Let there be one (or some) people coordinating the documentation on the gpleda site, in addition to individuals writing their own documentation. Regards, ~Abhijit ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 10:03:14AM +0530, Abhijit Kshirsagar wrote: On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 04:42, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Am 10.09.2011 um 13:35 schrieb Stefan Salewski: A lot of documentation can be bad. Ha! Now that's exactly the right answer to somebody offering writing documentation. :) I agree that too much documentation /can/ be bad - if its in a non-searchable, badly written form, etc. E.g. if one has to dig through volumes of massive stuff just to do simple tasks then it is a bad thing. But having lots of searchable (over the internet) docs is much better. For example, I imagine a beginner will run a [google] search for gEDA beginners guide or gSchem Tutorial whereas an advanced user will be searching for say PCB complete reference or the keywords pertaining to a particular issue. Searchable heap of random documentation is really good for those who already have an overview of the field and know what they want to achieve and what to search for. I remember when I started with PCB and gschem (originally with xcircuit), many years ago, without any EE or EDA background. I think for beginner hobbists this is not a rare case. And there are indeed a lot of things to consider... The hardest thing in such situation is that you don't see the extents, so you need to go (or at least you feel you are going) randomly until you gain enough knowledge and experience to be able to see at least the extents and main aspects of the whole topic. For such users, having a specific document that only enumerates everything that falls in the domain of the tools is most useful. This document wouldn't need to have a lot of text, but a lot of links and short explanation scratching only the surface of each topic. Key is not volume, but structure. This document would cover all the common workflows, all the common possibilities (i.e. for getting data from gschem to pcb or sims). It should also cover features or flows we don't have or don't support yet or at all. Starting from such a document is better than stating with a tutorial, as a specific tutorial will most probably cover only a small portion of the whole thing, and only a single flow/tool/possibility of all. It's easier to choose which tutorial to start with, if one sees the possibilities. Regards, Tibor ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
