Re: gEDA-user: solder/component --> top/bottom ?

[DJ Delorie]

> > DJ's clarification aside, I would vote for "top/bottom", with each
> > of those symbolically being placed in the list.  That is, for an
> > 8-layer default: Top, Layer 2, Layer 3, ..., Layer 7, Bottom
> 
> +1

You're +1'ing something we already have, and not what Kai was taking
about.  From the user's point of view, we use top/bottom [hopefully]
consistently.  Inside the PCB sources, though, we still use
component/solder names.

At this point, having just done a release after a long wait, I think
I'm more likely to want to hold off on unneeded changes until this
release has had a chance to prove itself - If there are many bugs that
are found, a follow-up bug release might be needed, and the less new
work there is, the easier it is to get such a release out.  I also
need to update our roadmap to account for our accomplishments.

So... go get the release and test it :-)


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Re: gEDA-user: solder/component --> top/bottom ?

[DJ Delorie]

> It just won't stick with me, that "solder" is supposed to be a
> synonym to "top".

Good, because "solder" is a synonym for "bottom".  ;-)

> Still unhappy with moderation of geda-user. 
> Why? Because it is completely intransparent.

Please do not mix your political agenda with technical questions.


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gEDA-user: PCB 20110918 Released

[DJ Delorie]

PCB 20110918 has been Released!  Many thanks to everyone who put
effort into this release, from the huge new feature sets to the
tiniest doc fixes, every little bit helps!  This release saw about
three times the number of commits over the previous two releases, and
many first-time contributors.

http://pcb.gpleda.org/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/files/


Release Notes for PCB snapshot 20110918

This release represents over 797 commits and as such this summary 
clearly is not complete.  See the ChangeLog file for the complete list
of changes.

Features


- Internal coordinate space is now metric.  This should fix the "trace
  nubs on metric grids" issue.  Also, units are allowed on pretty much
  every "coordinate" that PCB accepts.  Example: 5.4in, 10cm, 0.55mm.
  New configure option --enable-coord64 to force (slower?) 64-bit type
  for coordinates on 32-bit systems (if you need a board bigger than 1
  meter across).  The internal precision is 1 nanometer, the internal
  type is "Coord".
- MinGW support.
- New GL mode for the gtk hid with translucent traces.

- New GTK layer view/choose widget and other GUI enhancements.
- GTK HID warns if the *.pcb file has changed on disk.
- Enhanced grid snapping logic.
- Select/report nets by name.
- Auto-pan has been removed.
- Zoom can zoom out beyond the edge of the board's workspace.
- GTK: title string matches GNOME conventions.
- Personally identifiable information is no longer stored in the PCB.
- Toggling vias from hole to plated is reversible.
- Gerber exporter has options for including outlines on other layers.
- Edited footprint files are saved as footprints, not pcbs.
- Improved gtk library search/filter.
- Default layer stack is now a six-layer template with outline.
- If the board has an outline layer, an outline will be shown if no
  other outline is specified.
- Group[] string allows t/b synonyms for c/s.  "top" and "bottom" are
  the standard names now.
- PCB will save files with an older version tag if newer features aren't needed.
- Autorouter has a progress dialog.
- PCB will no longer let you delete the last top/bottom layer.
- Refcard has been updated.
- Documentation updates.
- Layes with the PCB::skip-drc attribute set are ignored during DRC.
- Allow numeric keys to also choose the silk layer.
- Minor readability tweaks to the default font.
- Via copper may overlap.
- User is notified if an Import() cannot find all the footprints.

Bug Fixes
-

- Optimizer won't try to optimize overlapping pads
- Undo should fail less, in corner cases.
- Nested key-bound actions won't crash lesstif.
- Do not select invisible pads on the far side.
- Protect Import() from command injection.
- Fix conversion of far-side polygons to element pads.
- Fix initial clearance values of text when loading PCBs.
- Fix solder mask drawing on vias.
- Add missing action documentation.
- Fab drawing notes actual outline trace width.
- Zero clearance pins and pads won't cause DRC failures.
- PS export: fix draw-rectangle (used to do fill, not outline)
- Gerber export no longer fills unfilled rectanges.
- If there are no image formats available, the PNG hid is not enabled.
- You can no longer select pins/pads of locked elements.
- The m4-to-newlib converter now creates file names that match the
  library view.
- Never set the FOUND flag on new silk lines.
- Lesstif HID won't crash if both Xinerama and XRender are detected.
- Lesstif menu is now internationalizable.
- Refdes labels in a font-less layout can be moved.
- Import can correctly update elements on the bottom side.
- DRC no longer treats unplated holes as conducting.

Other
-

- Updated and new translations, including Dutch.
- Many polygon speedups.
- Numerous build-related cleanups.
- Numerous minor speed-related cleanups.
- GTK 2.18 is the minimum required version.
- GTS moved out of the src/ tree so it can be built with different flags.
- More C++ compatible.
- Expanded regex documentation.
- Much code which is no longer needed has been removed.
- HID init method changed to allow for hid struct expansion without
  breaking everything.
- New HID calls for whole-pad and whole-pin drawing.
- ClearAndRedrawOutput() replaced with Redraw().
- Board objects use hashes instead of lists to store parts, so
  pointers don't change.
- DVI documentation output is no longer generated.


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Re: gEDA-user: windows and opengl

[DJ Delorie]

> Is there a serious road block? 

Yes - the code just doesn't work.  The PCB window is very messed up,
including no menus or sidebar and a misaligned crosshair.

> Can I tell potential users that this will most likely be rectified
> on a reasonable time frame -- Say in, in a few months?

Officially, no - it's our policy to not make such predictions, but if
you want to fix it yourself in the next few months, you may promise
them that.  Otherwise, we'll work on it if/when we get a chance and it
will get fixed when it's fixed.


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Re: gEDA-user: help with pcb dsn plugin

[DJ Delorie]

> I assume there are PCB devs that prefer the gnu style?

1. I prefer GNU style.  Emacs automatically does this style when
   coding, too.

2. GNU style seems to be popular elsewhere too, which reduces the
   learning curve for many new developers

3. Historically, that's what we've used.


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Re: gEDA-user: help with pcb dsn plugin

[DJ Delorie]

> Can the style conventions be found anywhere in a halfway comprehensive 
> written form?

http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/


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Re: gEDA-user: windows and opengl

[DJ Delorie]

> The most obvious difference between the windows version of PCB and
> the one built for linux is transparency. Why is this so?

We couldn't get it working correctly in time.


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Re: gEDA-user: help with pcb dsn plugin

[DJ Delorie]

> Is the above the exact syntax ?

PCB follows the GNU coding standards, Run the source through "indent"
and it should come out correct.

The only exception, usually, is comments (since we build docs from
them) and table-formatted structure data, since GNU style creates much
more whitespace than we need, reducing readability.


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

> > Should we just accept the fact that Windows won't have
> > script-generated footprints, and #ifdef it out?
> 
> So the correct answer to the dialog in winXP would have been a binary
> of a m4 compiler?

No, because the contents script requires bash, not m4.  But you can't
*generate* the footprints without m4.


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

> It sounds like 'bash' needs to be selected as the program to run

That would be tricky, as we don't install bash.


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

> (I still have to find a way to get rid of the ListLibraryContents.sh problem)

Should we just accept the fact that Windows won't have
script-generated footprints, and #ifdef it out?

I did fix the newlib generator to produce the "right" footprint names
from the m4 library, see if pcblib-newlib/ is good enough.


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

Another try (url changed to make sure you don't get a stale copy):

ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/geda-windows/snapshots/pcb-20110916-2.exe


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

> Nope, pcb-20110916.exe is still not zooming with z/Z or the pull down menu.

My bad, the script built a new snapshot but failed to download it
because the local cache already had a file by that name.  I'm
rebuilding...


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Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows

[DJ Delorie]

> I will take bets that all the locales where this was reported - Dutch,
> Finish, German - use "," as a decimal separator rather than ".".

Try this snapshot:

ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/geda-windows/snapshots/pcb-20110916.exe
9,243,114 bytes

I switched from strdot() to g_ascii_strtod() to parse Zoom() values,
but left the other strtod()'s alone (command line parsing).


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Re: gEDA-user: windows testers wanted

[DJ Delorie]

> > > * Whether Z/z keys work
> >
> > Yes.
> 
> XP : No.
> Win 7: No

Do you have a US keyboard, or a non-US keyboard?


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Re: gEDA-user: unconnected tracks

[DJ Delorie]

> Still not making sense to me, found by what metric?

Found by "Find" of course - the 'f' key.  Find all connected objects.


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Re: gEDA-user: unconnected tracks

[DJ Delorie]

> But then I realized that I don't really understand what "all
> connected objects" is supposed ot mean.

Read as "all found objects" and it makes more sense.



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gEDA-user: windows testers wanted

[DJ Delorie]

We're trying to track down the zoom bug.  If you have access to a
windows machine, please try this PCB snapshot:

  ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/geda-windows/snapshots/pcb-20110915-dj.exe

The key thing we're trying to find out is if the "zoom bug" is
XP-specific and/or hardware-specific.  Please try zooming and report
back:

* Version of Windows (xp, vista, 7; 32 vs 64 bit) and mouse type

* Whether Z/z keys work, and if you have to first click in the work
  area to get them to work

* Whether your mouse scroll wheel zooms (if you have a real scroll wheel)

* If zoom/pan "bars" on your trackpad work (and if it's synaptics - we
  know that's broken)

* If zooming doesn't work, can you still zoom in via the menu
  (remember to click on the pcb after choosing this) and pan with the
  scrollbars?

Thanks!
DJ


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Re: gEDA-user: trcing with pcb design

[DJ Delorie]

> If you wanted to extract the as-built connectivity from a layout
> (possibly one without a netlist specified in the PCB file), one
> would have to re-construct a new netlist by tracking connectivity as
> per the "F" key to find connected copper.

I would think PCB would already have one of those, else how to we
compare the current layout to the netlist when we optimize rats?


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Re: gEDA-user: trcing with pcb design

[DJ Delorie]

PCB's netlist is readily available within pcb's innards, and easily
parsable out of the *.pcb file.  So far nobody's needed it so there's
no command to extract it, that's all.

If you have a specific format you need it in, your best choice is to
write an exporter for it, then you can extract it with a command line
option.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> Most linux users don't see this as it is automatically done by the post 
> install scripts of their distro. They choose "geda" in the package manager, 
> press install and are done. No need to add paths to anything. 

You're talking about two different things now.

PCB's installed library is automatically set up at install time.

User-specific libraries require a restart.

This is the same on both linux and windows.


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Re: gEDA-user: Another pcb segfault

[DJ Delorie]

> it's time for another pcb crash report.  :-)

Also, please file all bug reports in launchpad:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb


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Re: gEDA-user: Another pcb segfault

[DJ Delorie]

I don't get a crash, but 'v' does move the board completely outside
the viewport.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> You don't have to put the sources in the same ZIP file as the
> binary, do you?  You can provide a source archive in the same
> download directory, right next to the binary download.

Right, same directory (even just "same server") is fine.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> Before a Windows Port takes up a prominent spot on any gEDA et.al.
> Home Page these are the issue I know that need to be fixed:

Feel free to verify these and file bug reports for them.  I'm pretty
sure I'll forget the details over time.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> First thing I got was:

I meant, if you open the library window, it's got the newlib parts in
there.  I knew the m4 stuff wouldn't work, that's why we converted
everything.  A few bugfixes in the converter and we can stop using m4
at runtime completely.

> File -> Preferences -> Library -> Add a library path
> then "Restart program for changes to take effect".

This is how it works in Linux too, though.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> Note, that this build contains a potential show-stopper for PCB: At least 
> on winXP it fails to zoom. See
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/843577

Might be worth retrying; since then we've bumped the gtk version.
Zoom works fine for me in Win7.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> But I would think to look at the main site, www.gpleda.org, for any
> kind of announcements

I know, and I've chosen not to make them *that* widely known yet.
We're planning a PCB release this weekend, hoping to have an official
windows installer for PCB at that point.

> On other small thing, why are the links split across a couple of
> websites for the same project ?

PCB, gEDA, and gerbv (etc) are not "the same project".


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> OK, so you and Peter intend to take on the additional burden of
> routinely packaging for Windows?

The plan is to automate it so that there is no burden, aside from the
usual dealings with bug reports, but that's no more than what we do
for other platforms.

> I think you misread the mailing list.

No, there are examples of what I noted, although I hope the "we want
windows" posts outnumber them.

> > We've done a poor job of making potential windows users welcome and it
> > will take quite a bit of work to reverse that.
> 
> We've done exactly as much to make Windows users welcome as we've
> done for Mac users. The difference is that the Mac community (in the
> persons of Charles Lepple and whoever packages for MacPorts) has
> stepped up here while the Windows community has not.

And the Mac community has a much lower barrier to entry, since they're
already based on a Unix platform.  We *have* had windows folks step up
before (especially Cesar, who designed the windows build system), we
just never got the momentum and automation required to keep it going.

> I don't see that as a developer responsibility, but I'm all for it,
> especially if you guys can sustain it. The problem with past Windows
> binaries is that they've been one-shot deals.

Well, developers have to code for *a* platform, there's no such thing
a truly platform-agnostic code any more.  But yeah, we're trying to
make this an ongoing thing.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> So is mingw-based better so the user doesn't have a huge cygwin
> installation in their c:\cygwin?  It would be nice to have a more
> self-contained install.

The PCB installer is only 9 MB but I haven't tried stripping out debug
information yet.  The only other executable pcb needs is one to set up
the gdk image loader cache at install time.

> How much Unix tools does gEDA really need to run?  Just the Scheme
> interpreter?

I don't think there's much in the way of unix-isms inherent in the
operation of any of the tools, aside from what the user adds around
them.

> Is m4 required if you don't use m4 footprint libraries?

No, but there's a bug in the newlib converter that needs to be fixed
for a non-m4 system to function as well as an m4 system, primarily
dealing with footprints with spaces in the macro names.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> Nobody has stepped forward to do this as a routine job for each new
> release of gEDA on Windows.

Yes, I have.  Peter and I have been working on the details, but I've
been doing automated builds of geda for windows for a while now.  I
just haven't advertised them much because we're still testing and
debugging them.  And PCB has had windows releases in the past with
some regularity anyway, the big problem is that the release relied on
a now-obsolete cygwin feature, so we have to cross-build them
now.

> I don't think there's any tendency to disparage Windows users here.

The geda web site explicitly says that windows users are not
supported.  And there's plenty of history on the mailing list saying
that the "regulars" would rather not have windows users involved.
We've done a poor job of making potential windows users welcome and it
will take quite a bit of work to reverse that.

> There is a tendency to be annoyed with demands that the gEDA project
> create Windows binaries.

There is a tendency to be annoyed with demands for *anything*, but we
do recognize the need for windows support and we *are* working on it.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> Unless something has change that I'm unaware of, the Windows build
> of PCB does not print at all (you have to export PostScript to the

That hasn't changed, but Peter has cairo-printing patches in the
works.

> nor does it handle the library paths correctly.

Seems to work OK for me.

> I'll get you the 1.7.x build when I get home to add to the
> 1.6.x. releases.

I have a 1.7.x gEDA build already.


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

> That's great!  How coincidental that I just opened up my mail
> client to post to the list about how I could not find a Windows
> build of gEDA!
> 
> I want to recommend gEDA to colleagues and online contacts, but
> unless I can point them to a one-click Windows download, gEDA won't
> be considered -- it'll surely be KiCad or (grimace) EAGLE.

You didn't notice my posting last week about my nightly
geda-for-windows builds?  Or that a big part of the upcoming pcb
release is a windows installer?

Sigh.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/geda-windows/

Note: this is mingw-based, not cygwin-based, and the installer exe
only installs pcb at the moment (unzip the build-*.zip to get an
"everything" install)


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Re: gEDA-user: cygwin geda tools

[DJ Delorie]

>I've built a cygwin version of geda/gaf 1.6.2 and pcb and
>combined it, rather crudely, with the necessary cygwin bits to
>make it easy to install on a Windows PC.

Don't forget that you need to distribute the geda and cygwin sources
with your binaries.  Yes, it's a pain, but yes, you have to do it.

>I've also put the student handouts there in case they are of any
>use to those writing new documentation - but they are probably
>not sexy enough for you. My handouts are in the style of guides
>and hints, aiming to point out things which may not be obvious to
>beginners.

Excellent!


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Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)

[DJ Delorie]

> IMHO, this should not be plural. That is, a getting started should
> decide for one work-flow and stick with it.

As John points out, there's more to geda than making circuit boards.
So, tutorials for schematics->pcb, schematics->sim, verilog->sim, etc.
Then, within each case, beginner vs advanced, like one schematic to a
two-layer board, then multiple schematics, then heirarchical to
many-layer with BOM and gerber, etc.

> >   showing off the most current and 
> 
> I'd say, tutorials are not a place to show off, but to teach.
> (Mayby I am overly picky with words...)

I meant, for example, using PCB's importer instead of gsch2pcb, or
snapshots of the GTK interface instead of the ancient Xaw one.

> >   newbie-friendly ways of using the tools.
> ^^^
> Here comes the hard part: "What exactly is newbie-friendly?"

To me, this means "if you've never used gEDA before".  I like to
assume that anyone attempting to do EDA already has some electronics
background and is familiar with their computer's OS, but hasn't
touched EDA yet.

The kinds of advanced techniques we talk about in the geda-user list
is not something I want to expose a new user to until they understand
the basic functionality of the toolchain as a whole.

> Is it a step-by-step walk through a minimum manual set-up of a project?
> Or is a scripted set-up wich results in a full fledged project dir
> complete with local configs and makefiles? Both have their pros and cons.

I like to use toy designs that demonstrate the techniques, and leave
it up to the user to apply those techniques to more complex designs.

See http://www.delorie.com/pcb/docs/gs/gs.html#Your-First-Board

At this stage, the tutorial should be end-to-end so that the user gets
a sense of accomplishing something without the frustration of the big
learning curve.

> > * Replacements for the reference manuals.
> 
> Reference manuals should be comprehensive, accurate and reflect the
> status of a specific version. Overall style and readability are less
> a concern. This calls for tight coupling to the source and inclusion
> in the make tool chain.  The concept of collaborative online editing
> does not mix well with such a scripted approach. It is part of the
> source and should be treated as such.

IMHO it needs more than just a source extraction.  There's some
overview information that needs to be in there - the WHY of
everything, not just the WHAT.

> > * Internals docs for new developers.
> 
> This is clearly a task for core developers and way beyond 
> the scope of what I intend to start.

Yup.  Don't worry about it, just keep in mind that it'll be out there
at some point.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb “Optimize routed tracks” problems

[DJ Delorie]

> > I'm interested, but time-strapped. Can you give me a quick
> > outline of what "Optimize routed tracks" is supposed to do
> > and what source files it uses?
> 
> I looked back at DJ's page on the pcb trace puller
>  and realized that the
> instructions there rely on using arcs in the tracks.  Perhaps a
> sequence of lines is not pulled properly?

There are two different tools - the trace optimizer moves orthogonal
traces to minimize overall trace length, and the puller does the whole
curvy-arc thing.

The optimizer needs some work to understand 45-degree pads, and
polygon planes.  Should be somewhat straightforward, see djopt.c.

The puller needs more work as it's dealing with precision errors and
bookkeeping - it tends to wrap traces around themselves, for example.
It uses a more complex vector math too.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb “Optimize routed tracks” problems

[DJ Delorie]

> 1. My board has an LQFP48 footprint rotated 45 degrees.

The ability to rotate parts happened after the optimizer work.  Any
math majors want to take this one?

> Do they perform better for automatically-routed tracks?

They were intended to clean up after the autorouter.


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Re: gEDA-user: reasons for wikibook (was: plugins)

[DJ Delorie]

> a) IMHO, it is good practice to have a user manual completely separate 
> from documentation of features, formats and APIs. While the latter has 
> to be complete, comprehensive and super correct, the former should 
> focus on ease of use. These are conflicting goals. Think automatic 
> extraction from the source versus  

See http://www.delorie.com/pcb/docs/ for my preferred breakdown of the
PCB docs.  I think this matches what you're suggesting.

> e) The entry barrier is as low as it can get. If general readers 
> spot a glitch, they can press the edit button correct the error and
> are done. This provides a opportunity to foster participation of more
> users. Compare this to the circumstances inside the geda project.
> You need to send an email to an admin to even see the edit buttons in 
> the gpleda-wiki. Changes to the pcb manual require git patches and 
> an approval by core devs like changes to the code in git-head.
>
> f) The geda devs have no more say in what goes in a wiki book, than 
> any other user.

While I appreciate the desire to streamline the editing process, I see
two problems with your approach:

1. The easier it is to contribute, the more likely you are to be
   vandalized.  Wikipedia has seen plenty of this problem.  You need
   some method of authorizing trusted contributors and approving
   changes by others.

2. You should not choose a solution based on alienating the
   developers.  They're your greatest source of information on how the
   tools work.  Note: I'm not complaining about your choice, just your
   reasons.

> Given the consistent tendency toward more wall-in over the years, 

We've been adding more people with commit access over the years.  I
don't see this "consistent tendency" you speak of.

> I don't expect this attitude to change anytime soon.

>From my point of view as an admin, I see a few users who wish to be
contributors but have a "you must do it my way" attitude.  It is
difficult to accept contributions from such individuals because any
requests for changes to better align with the goals of the project are
met with harsh rebuttals and personal attacks (like this one).  For
such contributors, it is far easier to "just say no" than to try to
work with them.  Compare with other contributors who are willing to
compromise, deferring to the admins until they understand what's going
on, and are granted priviledges and responsibilities within the
project.

In general, if a contributor sees "an attitude" in a project, it is
their reponsibility to adjust their attitude to match the existing
group, not the group's responsibility to match each new member's
individual attitude.  This is not specific to gEDA, I've seen this in
every project I've contributed to.


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Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)

[DJ Delorie]

> I still have to decide, where to start. An overview? A getting started?
> A HOWTO? A table of contents to be filled?

Based on what kinds of questions I tend to answer in irc and email, I
think the relative priority should be:

* Introductory tutorials that demonstrate the most common flows,
  showing off the most current and newbie-friendly ways of using the
  tools.

* How-to's for tasks which are less common, showing off the "toolkit"
  features.

* Replacements for the reference manuals.

* Internals docs for new developers.


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

> But now I went to your website and couldn't find any mention of
> this.

The info is here, under "presentations and other info":

http://www.delorie.com/electronics/rulz/


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Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted?

[DJ Delorie]

> Why are you all looking for an algorithm? Since pcb warns, it
> _already_ found the short. So the algorithm is already in place and
> is working fine.

It hasn't found a short, it has found that two nets are connected
which shouldn't be.  Subtle difference, but it's a big deal when
you're trying to fix it.

> The warning message should also include the exact location of the
> (already) found error.

Finding the exact (or even best) location is what we're trying to
figure out.  PCB's algorithm doesn't find the location, only the
change in connectivity.  The spot it chooses to "tag" the short rarely
has anything to do with the spot that actually caused it.


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

> I read this comment to mean that the relative scale of the default
> titlebox and default symbol library should be such that if you print

Hmmm, perhaps the default titlebox should be changed then.  Let's
commission a multi-million dollar study of thousands of projects to
see what the best size is.  Or just pick a new one ;-)


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

> I think gschem has a pretty good interface.  I only wish PCB used the
> same shortcuts instead of the random keys it has now.

I wish gschem had the same shortcuts as pcb, instead of the random
double-keys it has now ;-) Note: The Lesstif HID *does* suppose
double-key shortcuts, if you want to make a custom UI that matches
gschem.  Use syntax in ~/.pcb/pcb-menu.res like this:

 {"1 mil" ... an={"G1" "g1"}}

But gschem and pcb have completely different toolsets and common
tasks.  It would be difficult to make them "the same" outside of the
usual common key mappings (cut, paste, undo).

PCB's mappings are also designed for the kbd/mouse dichotomy though.
My right hand pretty much stays on the mouse all during layout.


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

> I don't know who developers of gEDA are, much less what their
> background is.

For reference, I used to design PC/AT motherboards for a living ;-)


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

> I truly believe that you have to take the strict viewpoint of the hardware
> designers who will be the majority of users -- and not sit back as a
> programmer --- when it comes to laying out a reasonable User Interface for
> an EDA Tool. The OrCad tool was a prime example of this.

I gave a set of labs at DevCon to Windows-based hardware engineers.
The environment was 100% Fedora + gEDA.  They had no problem doing the
common tasks, and never saw a text terminal.

Perhaps we need to wipe out all the old docs and tutorials and start
from scratch?  Getting new users started with the "right" set of
expectations and shortcuts might make a huge impact on first
impressions.


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Re: gEDA-user: why some skip KiCAD and gEDA

[DJ Delorie]

I find this instructive, as some of the "problems" you see are just
misunderstandings about how the tools work, indicating that our
documentation and/or tutorials need help?

> 2.  The scales of symbols and borders in existing libraries needs to
> be workable for A size or letter size paper "out of the box".  And
> the beginner mode should have a create new drawing button that
> encapsulates this.

There is no such fixed scale in gschem.  Any schematic will fit on any
size page, gschem always scales to fit.  My library has a range of
title boxes that are all proportioned the same but various sizes
relative to the parts, I just pick the one that fits around the
circuit.

> 3.  A tool manager could be the place for some of this new function.
> A tool manager that "integrates" the separate tools and serves to
> reinforce a pcb development work flow as a memory aid and speed tool
> for infrequent users.

My flow is to run gschem and pcb, and use pcb's importer.  I see no
need for a third GUI when there are no other buttons needed.

> create traces all with the mouse,
> place parts all with the mouse,
> move parts with mouse and a modifier key,
> drag traces.
> 
> Use of cut and paste buffers needs to be invisible by default and
> otional with a workaround that does not require knowing they exist.

I almost never use cut and paste in PCB, and when I do (usually for
moving the whole board around), I use the standard Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C,
Ctrl-V keystrokes.


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Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD

[DJ Delorie]

> you all never worried about cern before? why start now?

It's not CERN itself that's the issue, it's that a big organization
wanted to help a project, and it wasn't us.  The more developers Kicad
gets, the more users they'll get, which brings in more developers,
etc.  If we lose developers, we lose users, then lose more developers,
etc.  User base and developer base are tied together, and losing an
opportunity like CERN to Kicad is only going to hasten this process.

So, one of two things is going to happen:

1. Kicad gets all the attention and gEDA dies a slow and painful death.

2. gEDA gets it act together and starts attracting more users/developers.

While I'm not going to look at CERN itself as a specific problem, I do
see it as a wake-up call to the gEDA community.

> better to just keep focused on your current customers then unknown
> future additional users.

Any project which stops attracting new "customers" dies.

Note that "customers" is entirely the wrong term to use, unless the
"customers" start paying cold hard cash.  It sets entirely the wrong
expectations.  "Users" or even "partners" is a much better
relationship - we're all in this together!


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Re: gEDA-user: time for a pcb release cycle?

[DJ Delorie]

> Orthogonal moves doesn't work

https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/699202

I worked on this for a while last week, it's *really* hard to get this
right as a separate flag because of the way the "tools" are
implemented.  There's no easy way to tell when to reset the origin, or
when to apply orthomove, on a tool-by-tool basis.

(not that I'm giving up on it, and others are welcome to work on it,
just saying how far I got with it)


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gEDA-user: time for a pcb release cycle?

[DJ Delorie]

With Andrew's nanometers work done, I think it's time for another PCB
release cycle.  My two blockers were the nanometer patch and a windows
build, and we have both of those.  All "next bug release" LP bugs are
fixed, as are all "next feature release" and most of the "future bug
release" ones.

As for the roadmap, we've got a few of the "next feature release"
items: nanometers, overlapping vias, and for a while C++
compatibility.  That leaves "more route styles" and "real layer types"
as the next big features to work on (yay!).

At this time, I'd like to ask folks to try the git head PCB and see if
there are any bugs that must be fixed for this release, and/or work on
fixing those bugs.  Also, please try the windows installer nightly builds:
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/geda-windows/

Barring any major surprises, let's aim for a pcb release in a week or
two (18th?).  Until then, please refrain for asking for, or working
on, new features for PCB, unless they're really really easy and hugely
useful ;-)

DJ


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Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD

[DJ Delorie]

> Sounds like a few "spare" cycles working on KiCad file-format import
> / export for our tools might be a wise move if we want them to
> reconsider after they have tried KiCAD.

Has anyone compared their file capabilities with ours?  It may be that
we need to make pcb's format more flexible if we want to import their
files, if they support features that we don't.  Likewise, if we
support features they don't, export might be tricky.


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Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)

[DJ Delorie]

> > https://github.com/bert/pcb-plugins.git
> 
> This URL gives me "404 This is not the web page you are looking for."

It works fine once you realize you have to take the .git off to change
it from a repository to a web page.  Seems a silly detail to me, but
that's how it's set up on github.


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Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD

[DJ Delorie]

> sad.

Which part?  The part where CERN found an open source app they liked,
or the part where they're going to contribute to OSS?


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> The patch-maintainer does not have to cherry pick anything.

So what you're asking for is a release manager.  Ok, put up some money
to hire one, because we don't have anyone to do that at the moment.

Meanwhile, please stop suggesting changes that require more man-power.
We don't have any to spare.


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> > The fall back option is to use a release.
> 
> It won't be an option once file format changes kick in. 

Always true for any new feature you want to use.  Wait until there's a
stable release with that feature, then migrate forward.

> In 2005 Debian had 1200 maintainers for 8400 packages.

Maintaining someone else's package in a distro is not the same as
developing those packages in the first place.  And 1200 people is WAY
BIGGER than the geda developer community.

> That is, on avarage every maintainer handles 6.3 packages.

And nine women can have a baby in a month, but the math just isn't
relevent.  The raw ratio of packages to maintainers has nothing to do
with how hard it is for a tiny team to manage multiple release/test
repositories.

> Sigh. I thought I made it clear, that I don't expect guaranteed
> unbroken applications when testing.

Perhaps I was not clear - it doesn't matter how much testing we do,
stuff is going to break and not get found until release anyway.


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Re: gEDA-user: plugins

[DJ Delorie]

> Do you mean the resulting commands from pcb --verbose would do all
> the action command steps, but not show cursor positions that caused
> them?  That would be great.  If so, I need to try it.

Right.  Cursor movements have their own channel, so just re-running
all the actions you see won't duplicate what actually happened.  For
example:

Action: PointCursor()
Action: Mode(Notify)
Action: PointCursor()
Action: PointCursor()
Action: PointCursor()
Action: PointCursor()
Action: PointCursor()
Action: PointCursor()
Action: Mode(Release)

Nothing here tells you where the PointCursor() point is, or that
Mode(Notify) actually started a drag, or where it dragged to.


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Re: gEDA-user: "revert" vs "reload"

[DJ Delorie]

> Macports is at 2.24.5
> Fink is at 2.18.9
> Homebrew is at 2.24.6

Thanks!


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> If additional filtering is desired: One of the "core developers"

Again, we just don't have enough "core developers" to add any burden
to them.  We need options that *reduce* the load on developers, to
encourage more participation.

> This wouldn't neceessarily have to be a developer. He or she just
> has to be familiar with git and the build tools in general.

If they have commit access to the master git, they need to be a
developer.  That's kind of our definition of "developer" - you need to
know enough about what's going on, to make smart choices about which
patches to pull.

> The difficult task is to determine, when a patch has seen enough
> testing.

This is the case whether we have a testing repo or not.

> But then again -- Currently, most patches are applied directly to
> git-head with no intermediate test repo.

As I said before, that's our procedure - git head *is* our testing
repo.

> There would be a freeze period, during whitch only bug fixes but no
> new features are applied to the test-repo.

We can already do that with git head, and often do when a release is
in the near future.

> A fixed calendar would help. I'd say two months of patching followed
> by a month of freeze would be fine.

A fixed calendar won't work as we don't have dedicated developers.
Our roadmap is to decide on a minimum set of features and bugfixes we
want in the next release, and whatever else gets in during that too.
For the next PCB release, my goals are the nanometer work and a
working windows port.  We're close.  Meanwhile, P&A are working on
modernizing the GTK gui, and some other things are getting attention.

> A mini-release could be offered as a package ready to install on the
> servers. This might draw more users into the testing boat. --> More
> eyes, more bugs spotted, more quality.

I don't mind releasing PCB more often than we do, but development just
isn't that quick.  *This* release was supposed to happen last
November.


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Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)

[DJ Delorie]

> I can see a core set of plugins shipping with the source, but not all.

I can see us breaking out some of the core actions into a plugins
directory, and importing some public plugins there too.  Might be a
good way to manage our "library" of actions.

> I think it would help a lot if the scheme or c code underlying
> functions showed in the log window in a way that can be cut and
> pasted to execute it again, or create a script that can be run with
> a button.

pcb --verbose does that, but there's still some OOB stuff that doesn't
pass through the action layer, like cursor position.


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> If you want real world testing, provide an environment with proper
> fall back options.

The fall back option is to use a release.

> Debian even has four stages (experimental, unstable, testing and stable).

Debian has a huge development community.  We have a tiny one.  Any
suggestion that involves more work for the developers is just not
going to work.

> By the way, stuff also breaks with small changes. See the first
> commits of the new layer selector.

The reality is, stuff breaks for all sorts of reasons.  If you expect
otherwise, you're not going to be happy unless you stick with official
releases.

> Obviously, some quite severe issues had passed undetected.

But many of them were found and fixed.


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Re: gEDA-user: gEDA request for volunteers

[DJ Delorie]

> See gpleda.org, ask on geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org
> http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user

That web page gives a different email address.  Maybe it should just
say "See gpleda.org for information on mailing lists" to future-proof
it?


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Re: gEDA-user: "revert" vs "reload"

[DJ Delorie]

> I'm also planning on implementing the same behavior in gschem which
> currently depends on GTK 2.10. Any arguments to upping this to 2.18 too?

Even the Windows builds use 2.20.  I'd say, bump configure.ac to need
2.18 - and do nothing else - and see if anyone trips over it.  Then
we'll know if we need to work around it.

Er, what gtk do the Mac builds use?


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> Thanks for setting up such a service, a well kept secret until now,
> and let's keep this one quite as not to waken the wild hoards of
> windoze users ;-)

Well, I wanted a few people to try it to see if it worked, but
apparently I need to ask a wider audience to get enough testers.

If anyone wants to send me a nsi file (installer template) for gerbv
or gaf, I'll add those to the mix.  I did the pcb one manually, after
using cygcheck to list the DLL dependencies.  Mostly I want to have
the pcb windows installer ready for our next pcb release; it's been a
blocker since the last one.

> 1) I can't zoom in using "Z" or "z".

Hmmm

> 2) No transparency (GL) supported.

I suspect this just might not be supported.

> 3) When loading a layout the file selector only displays the icons for the
> top 1 or 2 files/directories and the remaining entries only when hovered
> over (having focus).

/me wonders if these are all issues with the gtk port

> 4) the big font issue ... (probably solved in tomorrows snapshot)

Yup.

> Should windoze "users" file bug reports in LP for these nightly
> windows snapshots too ?

They're no different than any other git-head-build, so sure.  Just
make sure you specify that they're from my windows builds, and which
timestamp.


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

Kai-Martin Knaak  writes:
> But big text is still broken.

Big text is now fixed.  The LP bug had a proposed solution in it
already, too, which you could have used.  Also, you can now try this:

./configure --enable-coord64

if you think you're seeing overflow problems, or need a board bigger
than about 2 meters (7 feet) across.


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> Maybe give a non-dev volunteer permission to make "official"
> development snapshots, similar to how Icarus Verilog has done in the
> past.

Go for it, I say.  It's Free Software, they don't need permission,
they just need dedication.  If they offer something useful, people
will use it.

Note that I do nightly snapshots of gaf, pcb, and gerbv as part of my
"build it for windows" cron job:  http://www.delorie.com/pcb/geda-windows/
but I only save the last three unique snapshots.


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Re: gEDA-user: test repo

[DJ Delorie]

> If this happens too often, I may have to quit using and testing the
> cutting edge version. After all, I still have to get my projects
> done. I guess, other users feel the same.

This has always been the case.  If you want a stable reliable tool,
use a released version, or stick with one checked-out version you know
works, or maintain your own bugfix branch.  Git head is where
development happens, and when we're bringing in big changes, stuff
breaks.

>Add a branch "test" to git.

We call this "remote repositories" like Peter's GL repo.  I see no
need to have something else in the main repo that needs admin time
when we already have a working model for it.

The nanometer change *did* go on its own branch, too.


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Re: gEDA-user: Fwd: Re: [OH Updates] How can you help solve the proprietary tool problem?

[DJ Delorie]

> Does the category low end bother you?

Nope.  Dave comes from Altium so everything is relative to that ;-)

Besides, I always thought geda/pcb's competition was Eagle, not the
real high-end EDA tools.  There are a *lot* of features we don't have,
that are hard to come by, that the high end tools have.


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Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted?

[DJ Delorie]

> wouldn't it be nice to be able to tell a polygon that it belongs to
> a net and the have the thermals that disagree highlighted?

Yes, it would :-)

I thought of an idea for a plugin... starting with each pin/pad, trace
connections back to the next intersection (rather than blindly finding
the *whole* connectivity).  Then, check each intersection - if nets
disagree, that's the short.  If they agree, continue tracing back to
the next intersection, etc.

If you trace back to a polygon, keep a count of how many of each net
touches each polygon (i.e. don't trace *through* a polygon).  If they
agree, that polygon is OK.  If not, the most popular one is OK and the
rest are shorts.

I think the code in djopt.c has most of what you need, it just doesn't
know about polygons yet.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb gtk: Toggle buttons for route styles?

[DJ Delorie]

FWIW, I never use the style "buttons" in lesstif (they're a tear-off
menu).  I always open the style editor and use that instead - it has
buttons to select the style, but *also* tells me what the style is,
and lets me tweak it as I go.


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Re: gEDA-user: "revert" vs "reload"

[DJ Delorie]

> > Given the nature of PCB, I'd suggest tying it to the "changed" flag of
> > the loaded PCB - so if you haven't edited it yet, you see "reload" but
> > if you have unsaved changes, you see "revert".
> 
> Gah, PLEASE NO.

Well, yeah, I wouldn't recommend magically changing menu buttons at
all, but it's better than trying to see if someone edited the file out
from under you when you're the one with the editor.


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Re: gEDA-user: gpcb-menu.res

[DJ Delorie]

The original bug for my layer visibility patch, IIRC, is a groups line
like "c,1;s,2" - note that the c/s are listed before the 1/2.  The
"max_layer+1" trick is used for both the c/s magic layers *and* the
silk layers.


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Re: gEDA-user: "revert" vs "reload"

[DJ Delorie]

> We would probably need the g_file_monitor_file API in GLib/GIO.

Given the nature of PCB, I'd suggest tying it to the "changed" flag of
the loaded PCB - so if you haven't edited it yet, you see "reload" but
if you have unsaved changes, you see "revert".


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Re: gEDA-user: New gtk menu system

[DJ Delorie]

> While it "probably doesn't", PCB could quite merrily change the layer
> on / off status from (say), an action in the core, or a plugin we have

or DRC, which does that, at least temporarily.


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Re: gEDA-user: gedasymbols.org down?

[DJ Delorie]

Just FYI, turns out the place that hosts my secondary DNS was *also*
out for the hurricane.  Not much I can do about that - my paranoia
only goes so far ;-)


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Re: gEDA-user: essential library -- plaese comment.

[DJ Delorie]

> > Some links at
> > 
> > http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/essential.html
> > seem to be broken:
> >  > href="http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/symbols/titleblock/in.sym";>out.sym
> >  > href="http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/symbols/discrete/cap_vert.sym";>cap.sym
> >  > href="http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/symbols/discrete/igbt.sym";>res.sym
> >  > href="http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/kai_martin_knaak/essential/footprints/discrete/LED_3mm.fp";>
> >  LED_5mm.fp 
> 
> They work for me. 
> Maybe, this was still the impact of DJs server coming down during the storm.

Note that the links give you the *wrong* symbol though.  The link
doesn't match the visible text.


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Re: gEDA-user: Tearoffs on popup menu in pcb?

[DJ Delorie]

> BTW: What are Tools->None and Tools->Cancel supposed to do?

I'm guessing None is the arrow/select tool, and Cancel cancels the
current operation without changing tools (i.e. if you're drawing a
line, suddenly you're not drawing a line).


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Re: gEDA-user: gedasymbols.org down?

[DJ Delorie]

Ah, right, my old ISP folded.  I still need to resolve that one.


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Re: gEDA-user: Tearoffs on popup menu in pcb?

[DJ Delorie]

I don't think it makes sense for a popup to be tear-off-able, since
popups are supposed to be context sensitive, and if you tear it off
you lose context.

I.e. if you right-click on an element, you should get a menu specific
to that element, like "select" to select *that* element, "rotate" to
rotate *that* element, etc.  Such an operation makes no sense if the
popup is torn off and placed elsewhere.


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Re: gEDA-user: gedasymbols.org down?

[DJ Delorie]

It's back, but there's supposed to be a backup server on the west coast...


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Re: gEDA-user: New layer selector to play with (git preview)

[DJ Delorie]

> I've pushed my PCB+GL branch(s) rebased onto git HEAD now. There are
> a few bugs lurking in my branch regarding postscript export of
> solder mask layers though, and I've not updated the "pours" branch
> in a while. Both of those need work on the drawing APIs, which I've
> not sorted out yet.

Is it isolated enough that I could try adding it to the lesstif hid?


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> A decent graphics card capable of driving them is not though.. and it
> needs to have working GL drivers under Linux too ;)

Two cheap dual-dvi nvidia cards is all it takes.

The problem is when you want a single desktop across two cards, then X
starts tripping over itself.


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Re: gEDA-user: Foss-pcb Proposed plan from CERN

[DJ Delorie]

> No offense, but from all the stuff I've read from the gEDA base, various
> blog postings, and freelance how-tos, a common topic that always seems to
> come up is that with these tools and a knowledge of scripting languages, one
> can do just about anything.

There are two "camps" here.  One pushes the strengths of the toolkit
aspects of gEDA, the other pushes the ease-of-use factors.  You can
use it either way.  Most of the time when I'm using gEDA, for example,
I rarely use a terminal - everything is done with the gui.  But I have
some Makefiles that automate pushing designs out to my web server,
generating etch films, fab files, digikey orders, etc.

I did some labs at DevCon using gEDA/PCB/GerbV on Fedora, for Windows
users, and the terminal was not used *at all*.  The biggest complaint
I got was that there wasn't enough "play time" at the end :-)


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> eh, one of the reasons I really like having two monitors is so I can

I have four monitors (monitors are cheap!).  layout on the main
monitor, menus and dialogs on the left, pdfs on the right, schematic
on the upper.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> I can only see one sketch of a milestone, called "Next Feature
> Release".

You're not also checking the bug tracker, though.  It *also* has tags
for next/future bug/feature releases.  So there are four "milestones"
coming up, with the next empty one being "next incompatible release".

The next release (bugfix) has been hampered by the windows port bug.
I think I've got that nailed down, so as soon as we stabilize the
ongoing work (nanometer conversion, mostly) we can consider a release.

> A good roadmap also includes a vision where the road is going to go.
> Such a vision is arguably a prerequisite to determine the short term
> goals.

Unfortunately, my vision is often hampered by reality.

> However informal it may be, if a roadmap is to mean anything for the
> future of the project, it necessesarily has to reflect some
> consensus.  Consensus usually is the result of a discussion. Can you
> point me to the discussion that led to this roadmap? Who is the
> "we", who is talking in the page?

Just because there was a discussion, does not mean you have a right to
hear it.  If I waited for a consensus in this mailing list, nothing
would get done.  But this mailing list is not the only fora that the
pcb admins ("we") have for talking together.  We also use IRC and
private discussions.

But, the theory is that the admins responsible for the releases move
items from the wish list to the specific releases when we think it's
feasible that they'll be do-able.

As for the bug tracker items, there are other admins who manage those
as well as the regular admins.


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Re: gEDA-user: Is it required to use hierarchy for multi-page schematics ?

[DJ Delorie]

> I wouldn't know how to tell PCB that it should look at several
> schematics for the import action. Maybe, DJ can add a comment.

Layout-level Attributes:

import::src0 = file1.sch
import::src1 = file2.sch
etc

It's documented in the Import() action in pcb.pdf.


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Re: gEDA-user: gschem vs. PCB diode pin numbering

[DJ Delorie]

> It seems that gschem and PCB don't agree on which end of a diode 
> should be pin 1.

Welcome back to the transistor problem :-P

> I've also noticed that gschem searches the older m4 library first ahead 
> of the new pcblib. Is there a way to get PCB to use the newlib first? 

Probably.  I've been thinking of doing that within pcb at least (won't
help gsch2pcb) and trying to think of any gotchas.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> And the ability to store toolbar states in configuration file, or
> *.pcb file.

One of the reasons to do my own lesstif tear-offs :-)


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> It seems that if pcb is designed using best-practice
> model-view-controller design, then multiple views should be simple.

I don't think it's a problem, if the HID can keep track of its
displays and update them accordingly.  The lesstif hid, for example,
always does a full redraw when it's idle, it could easily full-redraw
more than one window in sequence.

> A more ideal solution than tear-off menus is a customized non-modal
> dialog, window, or dockable toolbar of some sort that provides better

I think dockable toolbars is the way to go.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

I put a master roadmap here:

http://geda.seul.org/wiki/pcb:roadmap

I think we've hit some of them, so it needs updating.

The way it works is: things get added to the wish list, then moved up
to the release milestones by the admins as we plan for the future.

> with priorities... or the developers just do what they want to?

mostly, we do what we want to, since we're doing this for our own
benefit.  However, coding is fun, and the more users we have, the
better (it leads to more developers etc), so we do work on "global"
projects as well.

I just paid my daughter's first college tuition bill, so I suspect my
near future will be "less hardware, more software", which should help ;-)


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> That would play nice on a dual headed setup.

One of my "dream projects" is to do a GUI for pcb that uses two or
more monitors, with one monitor heavy on the toolbars and showing an
overview "thumber" window, and the other monitor being 100% layout.

> There were fights against GTK people not to take tear-off menus from
> gtk3. But they did AFAIK.

The lesstif tear-off model isn't so hot either.  I've been considering
writing my own from scratch to work around some of the weirdisms.


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Re: gEDA-user: Is it required to use hierarchy for multi-page schematics ?

[DJ Delorie]

> Is it required to use hierarchy for multi-page schematics or can I just
> continue adding pages in the design ?

You can just keep adding pages, as long as your nets are named.  Nets
with the same names get merged when you netlist, as do components with
the same refdes.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> there is no tool palette or layer list at all; you must use the menus
> to select tool, active layer, or shown/hidden layers.  (Except some

You can tear off the menus, though.

> keyboard accelerators.)  I thought I saw screenshots of the lesstif GUI
> where there *were* layer and tool bars on the left side of the window.

I did a patch for that once, but didn't get it good enough to push
upstream.


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb HID GUI options: gtk, lesstif?

[DJ Delorie]

> if you use pcb with the Lesstif GUI, why?

The lesstif GUI was designed to use very little screen space, leaving
the maximum amount of space for the board.

It also serves as a check point to make sure the HID interface doesn't
become gtk-specific.  Peter and I seem to be taking the two GUIs in
different directions, which helps make sure that we *can* continue to
do such things.


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Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary

[DJ Delorie]

> Relatedly, why do we let the user select the 'rats' layer?
> Can you actually draw with it?

Yes.  That's how you enter the netlist when you don't have a
schematic.


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Re: gEDA-user: viewing side vs. layers

[DJ Delorie]

Which GUI ?


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Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary

[DJ Delorie]

If you had an icon that meant "you're editing this one" (a pencil?)
simply putting an X in that spot for non-editable layers would prevent
you from thinking you could click there.


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Re: gEDA-user: Has anyone in this group seriously used KiCAD?

[DJ Delorie]

I did a design in it just for the devcon slides.  I remember it being
difficult to use, but I don't remember any specifics.


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Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary

[DJ Delorie]

>  I can't use Shift without making assumptions about what character
>  Shift+1 corresponds to on the user's keyboard. So that's out.

The lesstif hid traps the events before they're translated, so it can
do this.


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Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary

[DJ Delorie]

Do we need any core changes to support any new functionality we've
decided on?  I know people ask about making sug-group layers
separately controllable, and/or making narrower classes of objects
visible.


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Re: gEDA-user: Creating bill of materials?

[DJ Delorie]

> Not true with gattrib_csv.  All 300 instances are grouped together
> on one line if all their properties are the same.  One edit and an
> import and then all 300 have been updated.  gattrib_csv scales very
> nicely to large projects.

Would you be willing to share that code with my sch2csv/csv2sch
scripts?


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Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds

[DJ Delorie]

> Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility
> independent of selection using the mouse. How important is this
> to people? It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard
> shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility.

Ctrl- doesn't toggle visibility?  That's what the lesstif HID uses.


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