Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 8, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Steven Michalske wrote: My statement was that you as a user should not override the setting that the computer configured for you. ...assuming the people who wrote that part of the OS did it right. I'm willing to bet I've been using (and programming) X longer than they have. If you misread that as In OSX we don't use the DISPLAY variable at all, then ignore the rest. If you don't use leopard or snow leopard, then go use it for a month, and then complain with the integration of SSH and X11 as niceties for power users. I only recently got a machine running Snow Leopard. My main machine runs Tiger. Otherwise, please elaborate on the misfeature It might be a bug; then I'll file a report for you. I don't think they'd consider it a bug, as it's obviously the way they intended it to operate. It's not, however, anywhere even close to the way the rest of the world uses X. THAT is the problem I have with it. 10.5 and beyond add a launch agent that sets your DISPLAY environment variable to a X11 helper. This helper points to X11 on you mac so that you get seamless integration of launching X11 apps from your terminal. Are you saying that I must override what the terminal did and manually launch X11 to use it properly? No. I'm saying X11 should be there regardless. That way, when an X program starts up, you don't have to sit there and wait for X itself to come up. How is this a bad thing, letting my computer that understands the rules for using X11 as a foreign window manager in it's own window managing environment? It's not a window manager, but I suspect you know that. It's a bad thing because it's not the way X was designed to be used, and more importantly, it's not the way the rest of the world uses X. Further, I don't want to have the delay of X starting up the first time I start an X program. That in itself wouldn't bother me much, because I never shut down (and rarely reboot) my machine, so my current instance of X11 has been running for about three months now, but still...I find it unclean and weird. I've been using X a LONG time (since X10R4...no typo there) and I know how it works, and how it's supposed to be used. What on earth would possess Apple to try to redefine it like that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On Mar 5, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Steven Michalske wrote: Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. 10.6 seems to define a $DISPLAY environment variable in a way that makes it a hook to a launcher that brings up X11.app on demand. This feature existed in Leopard as well, but many folks had set DISPLAY in their profiles and overrode the launcher. In 10.5 and beyond you want to not set DISPLAY in your profile. Feature? This isn't how X works, it's not how X EVER worked, and it's not how X is SUPPOSED to work. Wow I wonder what they were smoking when they did this. My statement was that you as a user should not override the setting that the computer configured for you. If you misread that as In OSX we don't use the DISPLAY variable at all, then ignore the rest. If you don't use leopard or snow leopard, then go use it for a month, and then complain with the integration of SSH and X11 as niceties for power users. Otherwise, please elaborate on the misfeature It might be a bug; then I'll file a report for you. 10.5 and beyond add a launch agent that sets your DISPLAY environment variable to a X11 helper. This helper points to X11 on you mac so that you get seamless integration of launching X11 apps from your terminal. Are you saying that I must override what the terminal did and manually launch X11 to use it properly? When I SSH in to a computer the helper doesn't set the DISPLAY variable, SSH sets it on the remote computer. The helper only sets DISPLAY for you when it is required to make X11 work seamlessly. How is this a bad thing, letting my computer that understands the rules for using X11 as a foreign window manager in it's own window managing environment? Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 4, 2010, at 5:52 PM, John Doty wrote: On Mar 1, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Dave N6NZ wrote: Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. 10.6 seems to define a $DISPLAY environment variable in a way that makes it a hook to a launcher that brings up X11.app on demand. This feature existed in Leopard as well, but many folks had set DISPLAY in their profiles and overrode the launcher. In 10.5 and beyond you want to not set DISPLAY in your profile. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:52 PM, John Doty wrote: Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. 10.6 seems to define a $DISPLAY environment variable in a way that makes it a hook to a launcher that brings up X11.app on demand. That's...just plain ridiculous. I just got a machine running 10.6 (new laptop from work)...that's the first thing I'm going to fix. Ridiculous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 5, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Steven Michalske wrote: Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. 10.6 seems to define a $DISPLAY environment variable in a way that makes it a hook to a launcher that brings up X11.app on demand. This feature existed in Leopard as well, but many folks had set DISPLAY in their profiles and overrode the launcher. In 10.5 and beyond you want to not set DISPLAY in your profile. Feature? This isn't how X works, it's not how X EVER worked, and it's not how X is SUPPOSED to work. Wow I wonder what they were smoking when they did this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Mar 1, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Dave N6NZ wrote: Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. 10.6 seems to define a $DISPLAY environment variable in a way that makes it a hook to a launcher that brings up X11.app on demand. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 23:42 -0500, Charles Lepple wrote: On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? Is it currently possible to tell a running copy of gschem to open a schematic? If not, that is probably something that needs to be fixed before worrying about the rest of the Mac look-and-feel. Why? Is that parts of the Mac way.. single instance of a running application? Should be possible (eventually). I think the common method is for there to be some IPC code in the app (perhaps DBus, perhaps other) - which looks for other instances. If one exists, it sends the other instance a command to open the requested file - then itself exits. Gimp for OS X has been using the X11 server and some OS X look-alike themes for a while, and it integrates pretty well due to the gimp-remote command. I think I saw some D-BUS automation interface to PCB - is there something similar on gschem? Not at present. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 23:42 -0500, Charles Lepple wrote: On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? Is it currently possible to tell a running copy of gschem to open a schematic? If not, that is probably something that needs to be fixed before worrying about the rest of the Mac look-and-feel. Why? Is that parts of the Mac way.. single instance of a running application? I should have qualified the needs to be fixed part a bit. It is certainly possible to run several copies of gschem on OS X (after all, it is just running an X server at the moment), but if you want it to look and feel like a native application, with a single dock icon, it is probably best to have a single instance. This would go a long way towards having a user double-click on a schematic to open it. Should be possible (eventually). I think the common method is for there to be some IPC code in the app (perhaps DBus, perhaps other) - which looks for other instances. If one exists, it sends the other instance a command to open the requested file - then itself exits. Yup, that's what I was thinking of. -- - Charles Lepple ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? OK, I'll play dumb. I recently built PCB from git after naively using macports to make all the dependancies go away. How is that different from what I did? -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Dave N6NZ n...@arrl.net wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? OK, I'll play dumb. I recently built PCB from git after naively using macports to make all the dependancies go away. How is that different from what I did? When you run PCB, does it require an X server? In this context, a native PCB would not need X11.app to run. -- - Charles Lepple ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Feb 28, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Charles Lepple wrote: On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Dave N6NZ n...@arrl.net wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? OK, I'll play dumb. I recently built PCB from git after naively using macports to make all the dependancies go away. How is that different from what I did? When you run PCB, does it require an X server? In this context, a native PCB would not need X11.app to run. Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Feb 28, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Dave N6NZ wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? OK, I'll play dumb. I recently built PCB from git after naively using macports to make all the dependancies go away. How is that different from what I did? When you run PCB, does it require an X server? In this context, a native PCB would not need X11.app to run. Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. If you use X11 a lot (I use it all day, every day) it pays to just put it in your startup items so it's just sitting there running. Starting it each time for every app is, well, pretty silly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
I'll take a screen shot. And send along the errors. I have to rebuild with the newest GTK+OSX. In terms of the XPM problems, it seems to be the XPM icons that don't show up, why that is I have no idea, since gd and other programs have XPM support. —Mark On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire mcgu...@neurotica.com wrote: On Feb 28, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Dave N6NZ wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? OK, I'll play dumb. I recently built PCB from git after naively using macports to make all the dependancies go away. How is that different from what I did? When you run PCB, does it require an X server? In this context, a native PCB would not need X11.app to run. Ahhh... OK, I get it. Yes, my build brings up the X server. But other than the start-up time, that doesn't bother me. X11 is preinstalled as of 10.6 (or maybe 10.5, I forget which) so the hassle factor is pretty minimal. If you use X11 a lot (I use it all day, every day) it pays to just put it in your startup items so it's just sitting there running. Starting it each time for every app is, well, pretty silly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sun, 2010-02-28 at 17:02 -0500, Mark Anderson wrote: I'll take a screen shot. And send along the errors. I have to rebuild with the newest GTK+OSX. In terms of the XPM problems, it seems to be the XPM icons that don't show up, why that is I have no idea, since gd and other programs have XPM support. —Mark If you build against a 2.18.x version of GTK, try with and without the client side windows feature forced off. That feature has introduced many bugs for the Win32 backend, and as I understand, the native Mac OS X one too. Try launching with / without this environment variable set: GDK_NATIVE_WINDOWS=1 . (Although.. I'm not sure how one goes about Launching a native MacOS X app with environment variables set. Perhaps you have a terminal window you can start it from?) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
It kinda works. You get a lot of blank icons...I think due to some XPM problems. Mark On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? If so, take a look at this page: http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 15:49 -0500, Mark Anderson wrote: It kinda works. You get a lot of blank icons...I think due to some XPM problems. Mark Send a screenshot? What XPM problems? Is it because MacOS X native GTK doesn't support them, or what? A quick search revealed this: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=502997 Sounds like people have had varied success with the patch available on that bug. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Native Mac OS X?
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: Someone with a Mac might like to try building gEDA and PCB with a native version of GTK? Is it currently possible to tell a running copy of gschem to open a schematic? If not, that is probably something that needs to be fixed before worrying about the rest of the Mac look-and-feel. Gimp for OS X has been using the X11 server and some OS X look-alike themes for a while, and it integrates pretty well due to the gimp-remote command. I think I saw some D-BUS automation interface to PCB - is there something similar on gschem? -- - Charles Lepple ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
