Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:23:13AM +0100, Stefan Salewski wrote: On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 00:18 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: If the refdes of a resistor in the layout reads 3R12 I know it is on page 3 of my schematics printout. Some people may read 3R12 as 3.12 OHM, I have seen such notations somewhere, i.e. 4R7 for 4.7 Ohm. At least at the area near where I live it is common to use 4k7 for 4.7k Ohm and 4R7 for 4.7 Ohm. Martin Kupec ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Rick Collins wrote: With the hierarchical ref des it tells you which instance. With component renumbering you have to search to find the right sheet... the same as non-hierarchical schematics. If the refdes of a resistor in the layout reads 3R12 I know it is on page 3 of my schematics printout. There is more than one way to view instantiation. You don't have to see it as the exact same, single sheet. If you do, there is no way to have your documentation in step with the actual board produced... It sure is in step. The hierarchy of schematic is just not flattened out. The way you are viewing subsheets, they are macros and the schematic is a programming language. In a way, this is always the case, even with a flat schematic. Symbols get mapped to footprints according to some rules. E.g, symbols with the same refdes are all part of the same component. A schematic is intended to be documentation and each page has to show the ref des that appears on the final product. Whether or not this is desirable depends on the work-flow and on the project. Remember the 69 instants of a sub circuit I mentioned? This is a real world example. It would not help in any way, if I had this sub circuit printed 69 times. The only fly in the ointment is back annotation. ack. I got the impression that refdes renaming due to hierarchical design is the road block that prevents back annotation in geda/pcb. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 00:18 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: If the refdes of a resistor in the layout reads 3R12 I know it is on page 3 of my schematics printout. Some people may read 3R12 as 3.12 OHM, I have seen such notations somewhere, i.e. 4R7 for 4.7 Ohm. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Stefan Salewski wrote: Some people may read 3R12 as 3.12 OHM, I have seen such notations somewhere, i.e. 4R7 for 4.7 Ohm. People who know this notation tend to know that there is no 3.12 Ohm in any of the E series. In addition, pcb emits only names or values but never both. So you know, you are looking at the refdes printout -- not the value printout. If it still feels too ambiguous, some separator character is the only way out. In that case you have to live with longer names. --)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: If the symbol for the subcircuit has refdes X15, and it contains a component with refdes C42, the refdes in the flattened netlist created by gnetlist is X15/C42. Local nets within the subcircuits similarly get pathnames for their netnames. I don't like the slash, because it makes the component names extra long. So I put these lines in a local gnetlistrc: (hierarchy-uref-separator ) (hierarchy-netname-separator ) In addition, I set the refdes of the subsheet symbol to a single digit. That way, the refdeses stand a chance to be readable in in silk with a three layered hierarchy. How about emitting only the basename of a refdes on silk - if you got several instances of a circuit on a board, the component values should be identical anyway. With sloting of subcircuits this may be wrong, but then it would make sense to collaps the pathname of a subcircuit into one instance, that you can place to a group of components. In order to get this right, rat lines from the path to the base-refdeses could be used. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Armin Faltl wrote: In addition, I set the refdes of the subsheet symbol to a single digit. That way, the refdeses stand a chance to be readable in in silk with a three layered hierarchy. How about emitting only the basename of a refdes on silk Then, I'd have no way to locate which schematic subsheet a particular R1 on the layout would correspond to. Of course, all refdeses might be guaranteed to be different like starting at R100 for one sub sheet and at R200 for the second. In that case, refdes mangling can be switched off whole sale in a local gnetlistrc: (hierarchy-uref-mangle disabled) ---)kaiamrtin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
kai-martin knaak wrote: Armin Faltl wrote: In addition, I set the refdes of the subsheet symbol to a single digit. That way, the refdeses stand a chance to be readable in in silk with a three layered hierarchy. How about emitting only the basename of a refdes on silk Then, I'd have no way to locate which schematic subsheet a particular R1 on the layout would correspond to. forgot to post another idea: in the course of general GUI rework, rightclick on a component could bring up info on it, including the complete refdes, the footprint source, XYRS values, attached nets, some of that even editable, e.g. for precision placement of parts. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Armin Faltl wrote: rightclick on a component could bring up info on it, including the complete refdes, the footprint source, XYRS values, attached nets, some of that even editable, e.g. for precision placement of parts. yay, yay! In particular the last part of it. Position and rotation angle definitely should be editable via the keyboard. Right-click to get properties is a very common meme. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
Rick Collins wrote: In addition, I set the refdes of the subsheet symbol to a single digit. That way, the refdeses stand a chance to be readable in in silk with a three layered hierarchy. How about emitting only the basename of a refdes on silk Then, I'd have no way to locate which schematic subsheet a particular R1 on the layout would correspond to. Of course, all refdeses might be guaranteed to be different like starting at R100 for one sub sheet and at R200 for the second. In that case, refdes mangling can be switched off whole sale in a local gnetlistrc: (hierarchy-uref-mangle disabled) Can you be sure this will work with all designs? Of course not. That's why I said, In that case Your approach would limit each subsheet to 100 of each type of component before name collisions happen. I can picture two ways of working around this. One is to instead append a numeral or other indicator to the beginning of a refdes, i.e. when on subsheet 3 a part might be 3R15. This is exactly, what I like to do in my hierarchical designs. (See the top of this post.) Of course this could be confused with a part value, i.e. 15R3. Not with pcb :-) Pcb prints either refdeses, or values but not both. The other is to have a feature in the schematic package to provide a unique number to each component. The subsheet instances would be processed in turn resulting in a unique number being assigned to each component in the design. We sort of have this in gschem already: The autonumber dialog contains the option to skip numbers found in whole hierarchy. This is not perfect, since it only looks at sub sheets but not at parent sheets. If I understand correctly how subsheets work, I can see where you might want to display to the user a given subsheet only once rather than separately each time the sheet is referenced. Not sure, if I understand what you are aiming at. One of my current projects involves a subcircuit that needs to be repeated 69 times. With subsheets I don't need to have 69 times the same schematic in the documentation. If I have to change some aspect of the subcircuit, I don't have to apply the change 69 times. So for this particular project the way geda treats subsheets is a real work saver. :-) Does it make sense to let the schematic package reassign ref des in multiple instances of a subsheet? IMHO, this is the job of gnetlist. On schematic level multiple instances should be exactly the same. That's why they are instances rather than copies. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
At 11:20 AM 12/19/2010, you wrote: Rick Collins wrote: If I understand correctly how subsheets work, I can see where you might want to display to the user a given subsheet only once rather than separately each time the sheet is referenced. Not sure, if I understand what you are aiming at. One of my current projects involves a subcircuit that needs to be repeated 69 times. With subsheets I don't need to have 69 times the same schematic in the documentation. If I have to change some aspect of the subcircuit, I don't have to apply the change 69 times. So for this particular project the way geda treats subsheets is a real work saver. :-) But it is a problem with documentation. You have one page in your schematic and each part has a ref des. In your example, on the board each part in the subsheet has 69 instances, all with unique ref des. If your ref des is hierarchical (subsheet/refdes), then the ref des tells you what instance of the sheet to consider. But if the tools generate new ref des that are not hierarchical, then you need to at least be able to view each subsheet separately, with each instance having its own ref des. This does not mean you have to edit 69 pages when you make a change. If the tool actually understands subsheets as hierarchy to be instanced, then it should allow you to edit the original subsheet once, but allow you to view it N times, each with the component ref des that will be used in layout. It may make it hard to figure out which subsheet instance to view in the schematic. With the hierarchical ref des it tells you which instance. With component renumbering you have to search to find the right sheet... the same as non-hierarchical schematics. Does it make sense to let the schematic package reassign ref des in multiple instances of a subsheet? IMHO, this is the job of gnetlist. On schematic level multiple instances should be exactly the same. That's why they are instances rather than copies. There is more than one way to view instantiation. You don't have to see it as the exact same, single sheet. If you do, there is no way to have your documentation in step with the actual board produced... The way you are viewing subsheets, they are macros and the schematic is a programming language. A schematic is intended to be documentation and each page has to show the ref des that appears on the final product. If you push this off to gnetlist, you no longer have a one to one correspondence between the schematic and the board. It just requires a smart schematic package that knows how to assign ref des. The only fly in the ointment is back annotation. It is common for layouts to dictate ref des based on location to allow finding parts easily. I guess there is no reason that back annotation should be hard, but in a hierarchical schematic it may require special attention. Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 19.12.2010 17:59, schrieb Rick Collins: At 11:20 AM 12/19/2010, you wrote: Rick Collins wrote: If I understand correctly how subsheets work, I can see where you might want to display to the user a given subsheet only once rather than separately each time the sheet is referenced. Not sure, if I understand what you are aiming at. One of my current projects involves a subcircuit that needs to be repeated 69 times. With subsheets I don't need to have 69 times the same schematic in the documentation. If I have to change some aspect of the subcircuit, I don't have to apply the change 69 times. So for this particular project the way geda treats subsheets is a real work saver. :-) But it is a problem with documentation. You have one page in your schematic and each part has a ref des. In your example, on the board each part in the subsheet has 69 instances, all with unique ref des. If your ref des is hierarchical (subsheet/refdes), then the ref des tells you what instance of the sheet to consider. But if the tools generate new ref des that are not hierarchical, then you need to at least be able to view each subsheet separately, with each instance having its own ref des. This does not mean you have to edit 69 pages when you make a change. If the tool actually understands subsheets as hierarchy to be instanced, then it should allow you to edit the original subsheet once, but allow you to view it N times, each with the component ref des that will be used in layout. It may make it hard to figure out which subsheet instance to view in the schematic. With the hierarchical ref des it tells you which instance. With component renumbering you have to search to find the right sheet... the same as non-hierarchical schematics. Does it make sense to let the schematic package reassign ref des in multiple instances of a subsheet? IMHO, this is the job of gnetlist. On schematic level multiple instances should be exactly the same. That's why they are instances rather than copies. There is more than one way to view instantiation. You don't have to see it as the exact same, single sheet. If you do, there is no way to have your documentation in step with the actual board produced... The way you are viewing subsheets, they are macros and the schematic is a programming language. A schematic is intended to be documentation and each page has to show the ref des that appears on the final product. If you push this off to gnetlist, you no longer have a one to one correspondence between the schematic and the board. It just requires a smart schematic package that knows how to assign ref des. The only fly in the ointment is back annotation. It is common for layouts to dictate ref des based on location to allow finding parts easily. I guess there is no reason that back annotation should be hard, but in a hierarchical schematic it may require special attention. Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user Hi, let me add an order of complexity here: Assume you have a bandpass consitsting of 2 OPAMPS, 4 resistors and 2 caps that you want to use (instantiate) multiple times on your board. There are multiple instances of that bandpass having different values for the R's and the C's. In addition to this, you want to use quad opamps and share these between 2 instantiations of your bandpass. To me it looks that you need to pass parameters to any instantiation of that bandpass (=subcircuit, hierarchical circuit) including a slotting parameter (share circuit with instantion n-1)). So from my point of view if you create a hierarchy symbol you need to be able to 'attach' component values and slotting to it for each instance. (There may be hierarchy symbols not requiring that at all and symbols that have 'fixe value' components and variable components in a mix). - -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen Dietmar Schmunkamp -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk0OrKoACgkQn22l+QvEah3TIACcCWPCYNPJ2h7t/p9PHfQNtUAk x/IAn3T2Vh3XTis08QsgZ+HX6nIgrMt6 =aq90 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
On Friday 17 December 2010, Thomas D. Dean wrote: I have a schematic with seven instances of a schematic, a hierarchy. I want to give different values to the resistors in each of the sub-circuits. For example, I have S1 thru S7. In S1, I want R1=100, in S2, I want R1=1k, etc. Is this possible with hierarchy? With Gnucap, just give the resistor value a name, and pass it in when you instantiate the subckt. .subckt thing (a b) R1 (a b) dv .ends X1 (1 2) thing dv=100 X2 (3 4) thing dv=1k It is better to let the simulator handle hierarchy. The netlister should NOT expand subckts. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
I have a schematic with seven instances of a schematic, a hierarchy. I want to give different values to the resistors in each of the sub-circuits. For example, I have S1 thru S7. In S1, I want R1=100, in S2, I want R1=1k, etc. Is this possible with hierarchy? How do the components in the hierarchy get assigned refdes values? tomdean ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
On Dec 17, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Thomas D. Dean wrote: I have a schematic with seven instances of a schematic, a hierarchy. I want to give different values to the resistors in each of the sub-circuits. For example, I have S1 thru S7. In S1, I want R1=100, in S2, I want R1=1k, etc. Is this possible with hierarchy? Not with regular gEDA tools at this time. You can make a script with AWK, Perl, whatever that edits the BOM after gEDA's done, though. How do the components in the hierarchy get assigned refdes values? If the symbol for the subcircuit has refdes X15, and it contains a component with refdes C42, the refdes in the flattened netlist created by gnetlist is X15/C42. Local nets within the subcircuits similarly get pathnames for their netnames. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Hierarchy Refdes and Component Values
John Doty wrote: For example, I have S1 thru S7. In S1, I want R1=100, in S2, I want R1=1k, etc. Is this possible with hierarchy? No. But it would be neat if it would. Maybe the code for the slotting mechanism could be reused to achieve the trick. You can make a script with AWK, Perl, whatever that edits the BOM after gEDA's done, though. And let the script edit the list of new components emitted by gsch2pcb. If the symbol for the subcircuit has refdes X15, and it contains a component with refdes C42, the refdes in the flattened netlist created by gnetlist is X15/C42. Local nets within the subcircuits similarly get pathnames for their netnames. I don't like the slash, because it makes the component names extra long. So I put these lines in a local gnetlistrc: (hierarchy-uref-separator ) (hierarchy-netname-separator ) In addition, I set the refdes of the subsheet symbol to a single digit. That way, the refdeses stand a chance to be readable in in silk with a three layered hierarchy. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
