[Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama
I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself: To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list. Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects, and that is a big deal. The gendergap would still be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome issue involved. And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos of questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the intention of the site. In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your own words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to talk but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas. Obviously you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the other hand, the attitude is completely uncalled for. -- Erin O'Rourke http://erin-orourke.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama
Hi Erin. First we are - and we never - discussed *Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects* what we did discussed here was 3 or 4 articles *from en.wiki* that Sarah thinks need to be remade. As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA. So forgive me if I do believe that discuss 3 en.wiki articles will do nothing as far as gender gap solve is concerned. Might be good examples to someone when they are doing a presentation, but that is as far as this can go. And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the *poor me, nothing I do is good* every time someone has a criticism against your work. _ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042 *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 26 December 2011 02:34, Erin O'Rourke orourk...@gmail.com wrote: I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself: To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list. Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects, and that is a big deal. The gendergap would still be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome issue involved. And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos of questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the intention of the site. In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your own words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to talk but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas. Obviously you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the other hand, the attitude is completely uncalled for. -- Erin O'Rourke http://erin-orourke.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama
This is exactly where my problem comes from : en-wiki is not wikipedia but one of many wikipedias, and wikipedias is not Wikimedia project. Just to illustrate how the discussion pimp vs madam is cultural-biased, in French wikipedia, the inter-wiki for pimp is proxénétisme (hustling) and the article is gender-neutral. It would be interesting to have stats of all wikipedias comparing, for instance, the number of article about women scientists compared to article about men scientists (and the same for actor/actresses, sportmen/sportwomen). Caroline 2011/12/26 Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm fed up - was Re: article differentials/unnecessary drama
Sarah, I assume you're the list moderator? Then you should be able to decide who joins/stays on/posts on the list, and not have to resort to rants such at this one. From, Emily On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote: And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the *poor me, nothing I do is good* every time someone has a criticism against your work. I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore. I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my special file until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today. --- Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as *you* like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly. I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of no one giving a fuck about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I *worked* my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also. And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well. I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even *less* desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects. This isn't the first time that I've actively, *and* publicly asked you to stop behaving like this. The goal of this list isn't to just talk about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being too sensitive or me caring too much or me being paid is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement. Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking. *and on another note, regarding language: * I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do. I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about? Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow* Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/USutm_source=WMdonateutm_medium=sidebarutm_campaign=20110130SB003language=enuselang=encountry=USreferrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome ___
Re: [Gendergap] I'm fed up - was Re: article differentials/unnecessary drama
So, if you're reluctant to moderate somebody who disrespects you, why be a moderator? From, Emily On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote: On 12/26/11 10:43 AM, Emily Monroe wrote: Sarah, I assume you're the list moderator? Then you should be able to decide who joins/stays on/posts on the list, and not have to resort to rants such at this one. Great point Emily, and this has crossed my mind. I don't really feel comfortable moderating or deciding on who stays/posts/etc the list when the negative comments by Beria have been directed at me (and of course, I shared my opinion on the matter). I'm in the process of investigating bringing in another moderator, actually. -Sarah From, Emily On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote: And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the *poor me, nothing I do is good* every time someone has a criticism against your work. I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore. I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my special file until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today. --- Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as *you* like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly. I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of no one giving a fuck about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I *worked* my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also. And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well. I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even *less* desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects. This isn't the first time that I've actively, *and* publicly asked you to stop behaving like this. The goal of this list isn't to just talk about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being too sensitive or me caring too much or me being paid is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement. Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking. *and on another note, regarding language: * I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do. I apologize to everyone for making this
Re: [Gendergap] I'm fed up - was Re: article differentials/unnecessary drama
On 12/26/11 11:29 AM, Florence wrote: Sarah Seriously When it comes to bullying... There are several options as to how to answer it. One is blahblahblah. It takes your time, it takes our time, it takes its toll on the environment, and is bad on your health :) But blahblahblahblah is one of my specialties! ;-) When there is no bodily harm involved, I'd say to do just as with trolling. Let it go. Do not answer. Do as if it did not exist. Have a drink and forget about it. Do not escalate. Close your mind. Do us the favor of thinking us able to filter out what is ridiculous and non sense from what is relevant and meaningful criticism. Beria is capable of both. Take the second and shut your mind from the first as most of us learnt to do ;) I always get a ton of emails asking me to ignore these things. But, I just get so freaking fed up and I feel like I'm going to explode; and then private ranty emails can only go so far..and then...BOOM!!! Perhaps I should take up boxing. Or just drink more. ;-) Maybe both. Thanks Flo!! -Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate today http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/USutm_source=WMdonateutm_medium=sidebarutm_campaign=20110130SB003language=enuselang=encountry=USreferrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Some Food for Thought
Some food for thought for all: Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. Eleanor Roosevelt MR ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] possible resolution... article differentials/unnecessary drama
While I'm not really familiar with various conflicts among the various wikipedias in different languages and english-language oriented Wikimedia.org and the foundation. I don't know if a short listing of them would help clarify that for those of us who are confused. Being an anti-imperialist myself, I have to wonder if perhaps its related to general resentment of Brit/American military cultural imperialism. But whatever it is, let's just seek a resolution. (And if it's just personality conflicts, perhaps we all could control ourselves? :-) If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be. I don't see a problem with listing an article as being problematic; perhaps people could again exercise self-control and not discuss the issues here at length and send private messages or go to talk page of article in question. Just a thought... Carol in dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] possible resolution... article differentials/unnecessary drama
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Carol Moore carolmoor...@verizon.netwrote: If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be. Ah! This sounds brilliant! Will this also apply to English speakers from the United States and United Kingdom? These individuals can speak to those in their national communities, generate relevant proposals on relevant lists (WM-DC, WM-NYC, the American cultures list) and bring them here or to the relevant Wikimedia pages, or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be? This seems like an unfair burden to place on men and women in our community from outside the United States and United Kingdom. You're proposing barriers to entry and participation for potentially valuable contributors. Is this list only intended for Americans and Poms? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
