Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
On 5/6/12 1:07 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: On 5/2/2012 9:39 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Don't miss http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad Where are women laughing as they chop up bloody sausage... To me I guess I see hostility and dominance in the kind of shots people have been complaining about. I don't think women should respond en masse with the same, but if no one responds at all, I feel it is my duty to mention bloody sausages. Of course, women have responded here, but I guess not enough of a ping in the fabric of world wide male dominance for me to keep my bloody sausages to my self... Hmmm... maybe I should write some of my favorite artists with suggestions Or get rich and commission a bunch of stuff I like... whatever the them... (Handsome male dogs of various breeds on their backs smiling and saying Scratch my belly mommy.) There was an idea brainstormed a little while back with me and a few other folks about seeking funding to have a Wiki Loves Women photography event that wanted photographers to take photographs of women - and this wouldn't be some broad crowdsourced thing like WLM, we would work with photographers, various models etc and make this legit with releases, etc - doing whatever we needed them to be better represented doing, so to say. So, wearing certain articles of clothing (i.e. go go boots), certain make up looks or uses, hairstyles, - places that are often poorly represented regarding women's stuff (i.e. men don't get manicures that often, sorry) even as extreme as sex acts, I also wanted to just have women doing things like mowing the lawn and planting flowers or pan searing salmon or whatever things need videos to represent them (and no, these women wouldn't be nude :P). The latter was inspired by Jenny Geigel Mikulay's work at Alverno College where she had her students (it's a women's college) make films of things like playing drums, the art museum building kinetic architecture time-lapsed, etc. All of these videos have been uploaded to Commons. Someday I'll do it =) I can see it being a project that would be a perfect fit for Kickstarter. Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today https://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
Good idea Sarah. Prove everyone in the world we don't even have enough woman in the 9% of editors who can take a picture of some trivial thing. Prove the world the only way to have picture of girls in commons is hiring models and photographers to take them. I have NO idea why no one thought of this before! _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:13, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:07 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: On 5/2/2012 9:39 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Don't miss http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad Where are women laughing as they chop up bloody sausage... To me I guess I see hostility and dominance in the kind of shots people have been complaining about. I don't think women should respond en masse with the same, but if no one responds at all, I feel it is my duty to mention bloody sausages. Of course, women have responded here, but I guess not enough of a ping in the fabric of world wide male dominance for me to keep my bloody sausages to my self... Hmmm... maybe I should write some of my favorite artists with suggestions Or get rich and commission a bunch of stuff I like... whatever the them... (Handsome male dogs of various breeds on their backs smiling and saying Scratch my belly mommy.) There was an idea brainstormed a little while back with me and a few other folks about seeking funding to have a Wiki Loves Women photography event that wanted photographers to take photographs of women - and this wouldn't be some broad crowdsourced thing like WLM, we would work with photographers, various models etc and make this legit with releases, etc - doing whatever we needed them to be better represented doing, so to say. So, wearing certain articles of clothing (i.e. go go boots), certain make up looks or uses, hairstyles, - places that are often poorly represented regarding women's stuff (i.e. men don't get manicures that often, sorry) even as extreme as sex acts, I also wanted to just have women doing things like mowing the lawn and planting flowers or pan searing salmon or whatever things need videos to represent them (and no, these women wouldn't be nude :P). The latter was inspired by Jenny Geigel Mikulay's work at Alverno College where she had her students (it's a women's college) make films of things like playing drums, the art museum building kinetic architecture time-lapsed, etc. All of these videos have been uploaded to Commons. Someday I'll do it =) I can see it being a project that would be a perfect fit for Kickstarter. Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow* Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate todayhttps://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
Excuse me, Beria, but I agree that your tone is, in fact, highly inappropriate. From, Emily On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: Sarah, until i tell you to fuck off I'm being respectful to you. Actually the simple meaning of taking time in my volunteer, no paid work as a wikimedian to answer your mail show I respect you. To your idea: Ever heard of OTRS system? I'm sure with all your work for GLAM you already did, so if you have some image you want in commons ask them to release in a compatible license. HIRE someone to take pictures for us is a very idiotic idea, with the full amount of great photographers who take pictures for free to upload on commons, even more, hire the models as well can almost qualify as the most idiot idea ever. I do believe in volunteer work Sarah, which is the basis of our wiki way. Try to get something by paying people to do where you simply don't know if can be done by volunteers - since no one ever asked - is, in my humble opinion, stupid. _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:20 PM, Béria Lima wrote: Good idea Sarah. Prove everyone in the world we don't even have enough woman in the 9% of editors who can take a picture of some trivial thing. Prove the world the only way to have picture of girls in commons is hiring models and photographers to take them. I have NO idea why no one thought of this before! Beria, I'd appreciate a more respectful tone. As always, with me, and anyone else on this list. The snarkiness of your comment isn't one to make me want to participate or share my brainstorms or ideas on this list. Just because you disagree with my idea, doesn't mean others might find value in it, and it might improve content. Not every woman wants to edit Wikipedia and I have met women who are photographers who have expressed interest in uploading photographs and also women who would rather participate as volunteers to be photographed. Using the term model does not necessarily mean traditional model body types of women. Anyone can be a model if you put them in front of a camera. Again, please be a bit more polite in your responses on this list. I know I'm not the only person who would appreciate that. Thank you, -Sarah _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:13, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:07 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: On 5/2/2012 9:39 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Don't miss http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad Where are women laughing as they chop up bloody sausage... To me I guess I see hostility and dominance in the kind of shots people have been complaining about. I don't think women should respond en masse with the same, but if no one responds at all, I feel it is my duty to mention bloody sausages. Of course, women have responded here, but I guess not enough of a ping in the fabric of world wide male dominance for me to keep my bloody sausages to my self... Hmmm... maybe I should write some of my favorite artists with suggestions Or get rich and commission a bunch of stuff I like... whatever the them... (Handsome male dogs of various breeds on their backs smiling and saying Scratch my belly mommy.) There was an idea brainstormed a little while back with me and a few other folks about seeking funding to have a Wiki Loves Women photography event that wanted photographers to take photographs of women - and this wouldn't be some broad crowdsourced thing like WLM, we would work with photographers, various models etc and make this legit with releases, etc - doing whatever we needed them to be better represented doing, so to say. So, wearing certain articles of clothing (i.e. go go boots), certain make up looks or uses, hairstyles, - places that are often poorly represented regarding women's stuff (i.e. men don't get manicures that often, sorry) even as extreme as sex acts, I also wanted to just have women doing things like mowing the lawn and planting flowers or pan searing salmon or whatever things need videos to represent them (and no, these women wouldn't be nude :P). The latter was inspired by Jenny Geigel Mikulay's work at Alverno College where she had her students (it's a women's college) make films of things like playing drums, the art museum building kinetic architecture time-lapsed, etc. All of these videos have been uploaded to Commons. Someday I'll do it =) I can see it being a project that would be a perfect fit for
Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
This is highly inappropriate: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beriadiff=3706794oldid=3691439(at that is just the last one, I can give you both a pile bigger than the Everest) And none of you are seing me complain about it. A single mail with irony and you run around claiming misogyny and rudeness? As the meme says: Bitch, pleasehttp://deborahdekrem.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/4f35923e34365_bitch-please.png ! _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:35, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me, Beria, but I agree that your tone is, in fact, highly inappropriate. From, Emily On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.ptwrote: Sarah, until i tell you to fuck off I'm being respectful to you. Actually the simple meaning of taking time in my volunteer, no paid work as a wikimedian to answer your mail show I respect you. To your idea: Ever heard of OTRS system? I'm sure with all your work for GLAM you already did, so if you have some image you want in commons ask them to release in a compatible license. HIRE someone to take pictures for us is a very idiotic idea, with the full amount of great photographers who take pictures for free to upload on commons, even more, hire the models as well can almost qualify as the most idiot idea ever. I do believe in volunteer work Sarah, which is the basis of our wiki way. Try to get something by paying people to do where you simply don't know if can be done by volunteers - since no one ever asked - is, in my humble opinion, stupid. _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:20 PM, Béria Lima wrote: Good idea Sarah. Prove everyone in the world we don't even have enough woman in the 9% of editors who can take a picture of some trivial thing. Prove the world the only way to have picture of girls in commons is hiring models and photographers to take them. I have NO idea why no one thought of this before! Beria, I'd appreciate a more respectful tone. As always, with me, and anyone else on this list. The snarkiness of your comment isn't one to make me want to participate or share my brainstorms or ideas on this list. Just because you disagree with my idea, doesn't mean others might find value in it, and it might improve content. Not every woman wants to edit Wikipedia and I have met women who are photographers who have expressed interest in uploading photographs and also women who would rather participate as volunteers to be photographed. Using the term model does not necessarily mean traditional model body types of women. Anyone can be a model if you put them in front of a camera. Again, please be a bit more polite in your responses on this list. I know I'm not the only person who would appreciate that. Thank you, -Sarah _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:13, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:07 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: On 5/2/2012 9:39 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Don't miss http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad Where are women laughing as they chop up bloody sausage... To me I guess I see hostility and dominance in the kind of shots people have been complaining about. I don't think women should respond en masse with the same, but if no one responds at all, I feel it is my duty to mention bloody sausages. Of course, women have responded here, but I guess not enough of a ping in the fabric of world wide male dominance for me to keep my bloody sausages to my self... Hmmm... maybe I should write some of my favorite artists with suggestions Or get rich and commission a bunch of stuff I like... whatever the them... (Handsome male dogs of various breeds on their backs smiling and saying Scratch my belly mommy.) There was an idea brainstormed a little while back with me and a few other folks about seeking funding to have a Wiki Loves Women photography event that wanted photographers to take photographs of women - and this wouldn't be some broad crowdsourced thing like WLM, we would work with photographers, various models etc and make this legit with releases, etc - doing whatever we needed them to be better represented doing, so to say. So, wearing certain articles of clothing (i.e. go go boots), certain make up looks or uses, hairstyles, -
Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
Of course, that's inappropriate and rude. So were you, but we all know that you know better. From, Emily On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.pt wrote: This is highly inappropriate: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beriadiff=3706794oldid=3691439(at that is just the last one, I can give you both a pile bigger than the Everest) And none of you are seing me complain about it. A single mail with irony and you run around claiming misogyny and rudeness? As the meme says: Bitch, pleasehttp://deborahdekrem.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/4f35923e34365_bitch-please.png ! _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:35, Emily Monroe emilymonro...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me, Beria, but I agree that your tone is, in fact, highly inappropriate. From, Emily On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Béria Lima beria.l...@wikimedia.ptwrote: Sarah, until i tell you to fuck off I'm being respectful to you. Actually the simple meaning of taking time in my volunteer, no paid work as a wikimedian to answer your mail show I respect you. To your idea: Ever heard of OTRS system? I'm sure with all your work for GLAM you already did, so if you have some image you want in commons ask them to release in a compatible license. HIRE someone to take pictures for us is a very idiotic idea, with the full amount of great photographers who take pictures for free to upload on commons, even more, hire the models as well can almost qualify as the most idiot idea ever. I do believe in volunteer work Sarah, which is the basis of our wiki way. Try to get something by paying people to do where you simply don't know if can be done by volunteers - since no one ever asked - is, in my humble opinion, stupid. _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:20 PM, Béria Lima wrote: Good idea Sarah. Prove everyone in the world we don't even have enough woman in the 9% of editors who can take a picture of some trivial thing. Prove the world the only way to have picture of girls in commons is hiring models and photographers to take them. I have NO idea why no one thought of this before! Beria, I'd appreciate a more respectful tone. As always, with me, and anyone else on this list. The snarkiness of your comment isn't one to make me want to participate or share my brainstorms or ideas on this list. Just because you disagree with my idea, doesn't mean others might find value in it, and it might improve content. Not every woman wants to edit Wikipedia and I have met women who are photographers who have expressed interest in uploading photographs and also women who would rather participate as volunteers to be photographed. Using the term model does not necessarily mean traditional model body types of women. Anyone can be a model if you put them in front of a camera. Again, please be a bit more polite in your responses on this list. I know I'm not the only person who would appreciate that. Thank you, -Sarah _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 14:13, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:07 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: On 5/2/2012 9:39 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Don't miss http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/women-laughing-alone-with-salad Where are women laughing as they chop up bloody sausage... To me I guess I see hostility and dominance in the kind of shots people have been complaining about. I don't think women should respond en masse with the same, but if no one responds at all, I feel it is my duty to mention bloody sausages. Of course, women have responded here, but I guess not enough of a ping in the fabric of world wide male dominance for me to keep my bloody sausages to my self... Hmmm... maybe I should write some of my favorite artists with suggestions Or get rich and commission a bunch of stuff I like... whatever the them... (Handsome male dogs of various breeds on their backs smiling and saying Scratch my belly mommy.) There was an idea brainstormed a little while back with me and a few other folks about seeking funding to have a Wiki Loves Women photography event that wanted photographers to take photographs of women - and this wouldn't be some broad crowdsourced thing like WLM, we would work with photographers, various models etc and make this legit with
Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 16, Issue 12
Irony?? As the meme says, You keep using that word and I don't think you know what it means. - http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/17230566.jpg I think the word hostile is more suitable. There's a difference between constructive criticism of an idea, and calling it 'idiotic' and 'stupid.' While I think you make a good point, it's completely eclipsed by the words you chose. So, on to my constructive criticism. Haven't had the time to read the digest lately, so my apologies if I'm out of the loop. But the name Wiki Loves Women makes me cringe. It reminds me of all the times I've ever heard a guy who's been called out on his sexism say But I love women! I have a mother! And a sister! It says to me: trying too hard. Pandering. It makes me want to roll my eyes and go yeah right. Maybe this is just a nitpick, and perhaps I am the only person who sees it that way. Just my opinion. On the other hand, as an amateur photographer who is always looking to get more experience photographing people, this seems like an awesome idea in terms of trade. I often photograph friends' events for free - they get photos, and I get experience. Targeting women photographers could be a way to draw more women to wiki as contributors and perhaps help to cultivate a different environment in commons. -- Erin O'Rourke http://erin-orourke.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
Hi all - As was announced several months ago, I am now one of the moderators of this list. Some time ago, there was a discussion on this list about behavioral standards for this list. There was widespread agreement in the initial thread that it's important for this list to remain a safe space for discussion, even if that means enforcing a behavioral standard higher than is the norm on other Wikimedia mailing lists. I think that given the nature of this list, it would be especially, extraordinarily, unusually counterproductive to allow a consistently combative or consistently uncivil environment to take root here. Given the previous thread about it, and some off-list conversations I've recently had, I know I am far from the only list member to feel that way. Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how I will be approaching it. If, after an initial direct request to change their behavior, anyone behaves in a way that is significantly disruptive to this list, a way that is consistently uncivil, or a way that consistently makes other list members feel uncomfortable participating on this list, I will be putting them on +moderate, which means that all of their emails will be held until I approve them - and I'll only be approving emails that don't do those things. I obviously don't mean that dissenting opinions aren't okay; I think they should always be welcomed and moderation will not be done on the basis of the opinion someone expresses. But, I do think that all opinions can be expressed in a civil way that doesn't make other list members feel uncomfortable. We could create an enumerated list of rules trying to cover every scenario that could come up, but I don't think that would be necessary or productive. I think that most people realize when they stop over a line - and if they don't before someone else speaks up about it, they certainly should afterwards. I normally watch most traffic on this list, but I don't always (this week is finals for me :).) If you have a complaint about someone's behavior that you think needs moderator attention that has been missed, please send me a direct email. If someone else emails you asking to change your behavior or expressing discomfort in your posting style, please take a minute to step back and see if there could be something to their request. It's understandable that sometimes tensions will run high on gendergap issues and no one will be moderated unless their posts are consistently problematic even after being approached about it. Feedback on this is welcome, although the basic idea (that members whose presence is disruptive to this list being a safe space) is unlikely to totally change. Thanks, Kevin Gorman (user:Kevin Gorman, formerly user:kgorman-ucb) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all - Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how I will be approaching it. This really makes this place safe. Thank you very much. We've done an excellent job resolving the leadership gendergap on WMF with male +1, female +0. Honestly though, I can tell you that while I am glad for a moderator, having a male come in and tell me they will be making this a safe place, given the historical problems of men making this feel UNSAFE on this list and the increase in male participation, this makes me uncomfortable and more like this will be an even more unsafe space. :( The first thing you, as a male who knows there are issues with women who feel unsafe participating in this list because of those problems, is make a declaration of firm male leadership and less tolerance of this type of behavior. It feels like a major disconnect, where the end result is women will feel MORE silenced lest they offend you. -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
On 6 May 2012 17:16, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all - Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how I will be approaching it. This really makes this place safe. Thank you very much. We've done an excellent job resolving the leadership gendergap on WMF with male +1, female +0. Honestly though, I can tell you that while I am glad for a moderator, having a male come in and tell me they will be making this a safe place, given the historical problems of men making this feel UNSAFE on this list and the increase in male participation, this makes me uncomfortable and more like this will be an even more unsafe space. :( The first thing you, as a male who knows there are issues with women who feel unsafe participating in this list because of those problems, is make a declaration of firm male leadership and less tolerance of this type of behavior. It feels like a major disconnect, where the end result is women will feel MORE silenced lest they offend you. -- Wow, Laura. That's possibly the meanest and most sexist post I've seen on this list in a very long time. Kevin isn't the only moderator; Sarah Stierch and Sue Gardner are also mods. I do admit that I've not seen any posts recently that I thought should have been moderated. Kevin, are you trying to address a specific concern that was identified to you and the other moderators? Have you discussed your proposed actions with the other moderators, so that you are all acting in concert? Risker/Anne ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
I don't care who is moderating, but it would be nice to have more civility on this list. When I resigned as moderator, I invited several people to take my place (all women). They all declined citing the contentious nature of the list, except for SlimVirgin. SlimVirgin, unfortunately, was not able to moderate for very long due to health issues. That leaves us with Sue, SarahS, and Kevin. Sue is far too busy to actually moderate the list and SarahS often has a COI in moderating since she is frequently the target of attacks. So that leaves Kevin. Now that SlimVirgin has rejoined the list, perhaps she would be interested in helping to moderate again? Ryan Kaldari On 5/6/12 2:16 PM, Laura Hale wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com mailto:kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all - Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how I will be approaching it. This really makes this place safe. Thank you very much. We've done an excellent job resolving the leadership gendergap on WMF with male +1, female +0. Honestly though, I can tell you that while I am glad for a moderator, having a male come in and tell me they will be making this a safe place, given the historical problems of men making this feel UNSAFE on this list and the increase in male participation, this makes me uncomfortable and more like this will be an even more unsafe space. :( The first thing you, as a male who knows there are issues with women who feel unsafe participating in this list because of those problems, is make a declaration of firm male leadership and less tolerance of this type of behavior. It feels like a major disconnect, where the end result is women will feel MORE silenced lest they offend you. -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com http://ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
Thanks. It really makes me as a women expressing concerns about feeling
unsafe and unable to talk about issues in terms men on the list feel
unimportant and resolved because a man has said they do not care who
moderates. Clearly the fact that a man has stepped up to enforce civility
on women and other men do not care about the moderator's gender means my
concerns are over blown. Thank you. As a woman interested in the
gendergap, as one who feels like her voice is silenced by men, I am
ecstatic that you have spoken up on my behalf. I will now go silently sit
in my corner, because my voice and the voices of other women are clearly
being tended to by men.
On Monday, May 7, 2012, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
I don't care who is moderating, but it would be nice to have more
civility on this list. When I resigned as moderator, I invited several
people to take my place (all women). They all declined citing the
contentious nature of the list, except for SlimVirgin. SlimVirgin,
unfortunately, was not able to moderate for very long due to health issues.
That leaves us with Sue, SarahS, and Kevin. Sue is far too busy to actually
moderate the list and SarahS often has a COI in moderating since she is
frequently the target of attacks. So that leaves Kevin. Now that SlimVirgin
has rejoined the list, perhaps she would be interested in helping to
moderate again?
Ryan Kaldari
On 5/6/12 2:16 PM, Laura Hale wrote:
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Gorman
kgor...@gmail.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'kgor...@gmail.com');
wrote:
Hi all -
Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is
handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no
hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially
be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be
used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the
atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how
I will be approaching it.
This really makes this place safe. Thank you very much. We've done an
excellent job resolving the leadership gendergap on WMF with male +1,
female +0.
Honestly though, I can tell you that while I am glad for a moderator,
having a male come in and tell me they will be making this a safe place,
given the historical problems of men making this feel UNSAFE on this list
and the increase in male participation, this makes me uncomfortable and
more like this will be an even more unsafe space. :( The first thing you,
as a male who knows there are issues with women who feel unsafe
participating in this list because of those problems, is make a declaration
of firm male leadership and less tolerance of this type of behavior. It
feels like a major disconnect, where the end result is women will feel MORE
silenced lest they offend you.
--
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blog: ozziesport.com
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Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. Then how come I had two posts returned to me last week with the message: 5.x.0 - Message bounced by administrator They were arguably trivial and off-topic, so I accepted that decision. But now someone says that decision wasn't being made? If there are three moderators on this list, are all of them on the same page about what the moderation policy is or isn't? Will they be in the future? Daniel Case ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
Laura, I'm the one who's called you out here. I don't think it is any more tolerable for sexism to be directed toward men as when it is directed toward women, and I am reasonably certain that is the case with many (present and former) subscribers to this list. There are two active moderators for this list, one male and one female. When one moderator has attacks directed at her, it is up to the other moderator to address them. List moderation is list moderation, and it doesn't have a gender. If anything, I would prefer that this list be *more heavily* moderated than other WMF lists. In particular, I do not want to see people denigrated for coming up with ideas and brainstorming on this list, which I believe is where this post about moderation has come from. It's not acceptable, regardless of whether it comes from a woman or a man. Risker/Anne On 6 May 2012 18:37, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: Thanks. It really makes me as a women expressing concerns about feeling unsafe and unable to talk about issues in terms men on the list feel unimportant and resolved because a man has said they do not care who moderates. Clearly the fact that a man has stepped up to enforce civility on women and other men do not care about the moderator's gender means my concerns are over blown. Thank you. As a woman interested in the gendergap, as one who feels like her voice is silenced by men, I am ecstatic that you have spoken up on my behalf. I will now go silently sit in my corner, because my voice and the voices of other women are clearly being tended to by men. On Monday, May 7, 2012, Ryan Kaldari wrote: I don't care who is moderating, but it would be nice to have more civility on this list. When I resigned as moderator, I invited several people to take my place (all women). They all declined citing the contentious nature of the list, except for SlimVirgin. SlimVirgin, unfortunately, was not able to moderate for very long due to health issues. That leaves us with Sue, SarahS, and Kevin. Sue is far too busy to actually moderate the list and SarahS often has a COI in moderating since she is frequently the target of attacks. So that leaves Kevin. Now that SlimVirgin has rejoined the list, perhaps she would be interested in helping to moderate again? Ryan Kaldari On 5/6/12 2:16 PM, Laura Hale wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all - Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. From now on, there will potentially be some. It won't be draconian - and really, I hope it'll never be used at all - but I think it's important to guarantee that the atmosphere of this list remains friendly, and I wanted to announce how I will be approaching it. This really makes this place safe. Thank you very much. We've done an excellent job resolving the leadership gendergap on WMF with male +1, female +0. Honestly though, I can tell you that while I am glad for a moderator, having a male come in and tell me they will be making this a safe place, given the historical problems of men making this feel UNSAFE on this list and the increase in male participation, this makes me uncomfortable and more like this will be an even more unsafe space. :( The first thing you, as a male who knows there are issues with women who feel unsafe participating in this list because of those problems, is make a declaration of firm male leadership and less tolerance of this type of behavior. It feels like a major disconnect, where the end result is women will feel MORE silenced lest they offend you. -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap -- mobile: 0412183663 twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
On 6 May 2012 18:50, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case danc...@frontiernet.net wrote: Given this, I'm going to change how the moderation of this list is handled a little bit moving forward. Previously, there has been no hands-on moderation of this list. Then how come I had two posts returned to me last week with the message: 5.x.0 - Message bounced by administrator They were arguably trivial and off-topic, so I accepted that decision. But now someone says that decision wasn't being made? If there are three moderators on this list, are all of them on the same page about what the moderation policy is or isn't? Will they be in the future? Daniel Case ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap I'll respond to other things shortly, but just got home and saw this and wanted to get to it right away. If your message was bounced, it's a bug with the listserv, and not one of us. Currently, there is absolutely no active moderation on this list with the exception that messages sent by non-members are screened, and sometimes, the auto-administration filters catch and discard messages that have the list only as an implicit destination (i.e., on the cc or bcc line.) I am 100% positive about this - we don't currently have the technical ability to screen posts from people who aren't flagged +moderate, and I just checked and you are not and haven't been flagged +moderate. - While I can't speak for this list, I can confirm that we have periodically had similar problems with some of the Enwp Arbcom mailing lists - that is, posts being bounced for no apparent reason. We've also had people mysteriously wind up on our moderation list when we definitely didn't add them. (And for the record, I've not volunteered to moderate this list because I already moderate half a dozen other ones.) Risker/Anne ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
I have to agree with Risker here. Laura, it sounds as if perhaps you want a woman-only space, but this is list for discussion by all, of any gender, who are interested in the issues. That doesn't mean we need to dump on men, any more than they should dump on women. LadyofShalott/Aleta On 5/6/12, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Laura, I'm the one who's called you out here. I don't think it is any more tolerable for sexism to be directed toward men as when it is directed toward women, and I am reasonably certain that is the case with many (present and former) subscribers to this list. There are two active moderators for this list, one male and one female. When one moderator has attacks directed at her, it is up to the other moderator to address them. List moderation is list moderation, and it doesn't have a gender. If anything, I would prefer that this list be *more heavily* moderated than other WMF lists. In particular, I do not want to see people denigrated for coming up with ideas and brainstorming on this list, which I believe is where this post about moderation has come from. It's not acceptable, regardless of whether it comes from a woman or a man. Risker/Anne On 6 May 2012 18:37, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: Thanks. It really makes me as a women expressing concerns about feeling unsafe and unable to talk about issues in terms men on the list feel unimportant and resolved because a man has said they do not care who moderates. Clearly the fact that a man has stepped up to enforce civility on women and other men do not care about the moderator's gender means my concerns are over blown. Thank you. As a woman interested in the gendergap, as one who feels like her voice is silenced by men, I am ecstatic that you have spoken up on my behalf. I will now go silently sit in my corner, because my voice and the voices of other women are clearly being tended to by men. On Monday, May 7, 2012, Ryan Kaldari wrote: I don't care who is moderating, but it would be nice to have more civility on this list. When I resigned as moderator, I invited several people to take my place (all women). They all declined citing the contentious nature of the list, except for SlimVirgin. SlimVirgin, unfortunately, was not able to moderate for very long due to health issues. That leaves us with Sue, SarahS, and Kevin. Sue is far too busy to actually moderate the list and SarahS often has a COI in moderating since she is frequently the target of attacks. So that leaves Kevin. Now that SlimVirgin has rejoined the list, perhaps she would be interested in helping to moderate again? Ryan Kaldari ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
@Risker: Sorry for not making it more clear in my initial post. Although Sue is a moderator, she chooses not to be active in most moderation decisions. Sarah and I talked about this, and she looked over, edited, (and agreed with) my initial email in this thread. I signed it personally instead of both of us doing so in part because, as Kaldari mentioned, she's frequently been the focus of situations where moderation might be a good idea, and she doesn't want to use a modhat against behavior directed towards her. Since a lot of the issues in the past have been directed towards her, she's asked me to be the primary handler of active moderation stuff for now. (If there ends up being a situation where problematic behavior is targeted towards me instead of her, I'll step back and ask her to handle it.) :There's no recent incident that has made me go 'oh, hey, I want to +moderate this person right this minute' - but there has been some recent stuff that has reminded us that this is something we've talked about before, and that it would be good to state publicly before there is a situation where we want to actually +moderate anyone. No one will be +moderated without getting an email from Sarah or myself first asking them to shift their behavior, and even then, we'll be moderating on a post by post basis and not completely removing anyone from the list. I'm hopeful that we won't actually need to moderate anyone ever, but wanted to publicly state that we will be doing so if we feel it's needed in the future before it came up. Re: the idea of additional moderators - although I haven't talked about it explicitly with Sue and Sarah, I like the idea, and I'm pretty sure they would too. If anyone would like to volunteer, please drop an email to Sarah or me offlist. Kevin Gorman ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
I guess the better way to solve this is to place someone from the other side of the fight also on moderation. Why not Laura herself? _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos* On 6 May 2012 20:46, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: @Risker: Sorry for not making it more clear in my initial post. Although Sue is a moderator, she chooses not to be active in most moderation decisions. Sarah and I talked about this, and she looked over, edited, (and agreed with) my initial email in this thread. I signed it personally instead of both of us doing so in part because, as Kaldari mentioned, she's frequently been the focus of situations where moderation might be a good idea, and she doesn't want to use a modhat against behavior directed towards her. Since a lot of the issues in the past have been directed towards her, she's asked me to be the primary handler of active moderation stuff for now. (If there ends up being a situation where problematic behavior is targeted towards me instead of her, I'll step back and ask her to handle it.) :There's no recent incident that has made me go 'oh, hey, I want to +moderate this person right this minute' - but there has been some recent stuff that has reminded us that this is something we've talked about before, and that it would be good to state publicly before there is a situation where we want to actually +moderate anyone. No one will be +moderated without getting an email from Sarah or myself first asking them to shift their behavior, and even then, we'll be moderating on a post by post basis and not completely removing anyone from the list. I'm hopeful that we won't actually need to moderate anyone ever, but wanted to publicly state that we will be doing so if we feel it's needed in the future before it came up. Re: the idea of additional moderators - although I haven't talked about it explicitly with Sue and Sarah, I like the idea, and I'm pretty sure they would too. If anyone would like to volunteer, please drop an email to Sarah or me offlist. Kevin Gorman ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Crowdsourcing better women's imagery (was Re: Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia)
I like Sarah's idea. Could help a lot. Gillian On 7 May 2012 04:03, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:54 PM, Caroline Becker wrote: Can we please focus on the idea and facts instead of (in)appropriate tones ? I think that trying a professional Wiki Loves Women before even trying to do it as a crownfounded, volunteer project is, as least, strange. It makes me sad, as a volunteer photographer, to be forgotten or taken for nothing. Hi Caroline. I apologize if the idea (which has barely been fleshed out - it was just a bunch of folks tossing ideas around one day and that one came out and hasn't been touched since, even the title isn't anything official, I just was touching on the crowd sourced idea of say WLM) sounded like we'd be paying people to take photographs, that is not what I intended. I think having quality equipment and being able to support people with what they need financially to make these images happen would be great - whether it's purchasing or renting props, renting a studio space, supporting a chapter to acquire a camera or quality film equipment, etc. I like to think that everyone, like Wiki Loves Monuments, who participates would be volunteers. I am also a volunteer photographer for Commons. I know what type of equipment (whether it's Photoshop or open source applications, decent cameras, film equipment, lighting, etc) that it takes to bring high quality content that is desperately needed for Commons. I think having high quality images taken by participants (whether professional or hobbyist) would make a really impressive impact on article quality! I also think it'd be able to serve as a cool way to encourage professional and hobbyist photographers to participate who might be more interested in taking images of people rather than things (not every photographer likes to take pictures of buildings!). Many photographers have no clue Commons exists, and this could be another interesting way of getting folks involved. Again, this is nothing that I have solidified or set in stone or even thought about since it was discussed last year. I just think it'd be cool to see something that involves community (and not necessarily relies on WMF grants) within and outside Wikimedia to help fix some of the visual problems we have. Love that project idea you just shared! -Sarah I'd like to know what can be done, what has already be tried, what worked and didn't work. If projects like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sarahdarkmagic/prismatic-art-collection?ref=live has many backers from this list. In one word, to focus on projects and actions. Caroline -- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow* Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate todayhttps://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Crowdsourcing better women's imagery (was Re: Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia)
Wikimedia Australia has a program to assist photographers purchasing equipment if they use Creative Commons licences and properly describe their images. http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Proposal:Camera_equipment_program Adding 'other photography related expenses' would be good. On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 4:03 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/6/12 1:54 PM, Caroline Becker wrote: Can we please focus on the idea and facts instead of (in)appropriate tones ? I think that trying a professional Wiki Loves Women before even trying to do it as a crownfounded, volunteer project is, as least, strange. It makes me sad, as a volunteer photographer, to be forgotten or taken for nothing. Hi Caroline. I apologize if the idea (which has barely been fleshed out - it was just a bunch of folks tossing ideas around one day and that one came out and hasn't been touched since, even the title isn't anything official, I just was touching on the crowd sourced idea of say WLM) sounded like we'd be paying people to take photographs, that is not what I intended. I think having quality equipment and being able to support people with what they need financially to make these images happen would be great - whether it's purchasing or renting props, renting a studio space, supporting a chapter to acquire a camera or quality film equipment, etc. I like to think that everyone, like Wiki Loves Monuments, who participates would be volunteers. I am also a volunteer photographer for Commons. I know what type of equipment (whether it's Photoshop or open source applications, decent cameras, film equipment, lighting, etc) that it takes to bring high quality content that is desperately needed for Commons. I think having high quality images taken by participants (whether professional or hobbyist) would make a really impressive impact on article quality! I also think it'd be able to serve as a cool way to encourage professional and hobbyist photographers to participate who might be more interested in taking images of people rather than things (not every photographer likes to take pictures of buildings!). Many photographers have no clue Commons exists, and this could be another interesting way of getting folks involved. Again, this is nothing that I have solidified or set in stone or even thought about since it was discussed last year. I just think it'd be cool to see something that involves community (and not necessarily relies on WMF grants) within and outside Wikimedia to help fix some of the visual problems we have. Love that project idea you just shared! -Sarah I'd like to know what can be done, what has already be tried, what worked and didn't work. If projects like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sarahdarkmagic/prismatic-art-collection?ref=live has many backers from this list. In one word, to focus on projects and actions. Caroline -- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap -- John Vandenberg ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] civility/behavioral standards
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: I don't care who is moderating, but it would be nice to have more civility on this list. When I resigned as moderator, I invited several people to take my place (all women). They all declined citing the contentious nature of the list, except for SlimVirgin. SlimVirgin, unfortunately, was not able to moderate for very long due to health issues. That leaves us with Sue, SarahS, and Kevin. Sue is far too busy to actually moderate the list and SarahS often has a COI in moderating since she is frequently the target of attacks. So that leaves Kevin. Now that SlimVirgin has rejoined the list, perhaps she would be interested in helping to moderate again? Ryan Kaldari I don't mind helping out in the sense of being someone to consult. I was never actually a mod (I had no access to the list and wasn't able to put someone on moderation). I haven't seen anything of late that would have made me think extra moderation was needed, but I haven't read all threads. I'd be willing, though, to be someone the other mods can run something by. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
