Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Lika Tika]

Thanks for your very eloquent response, Sydney, I strongly second that
thought.

Amy
On Apr 9, 2015 3:29 PM, "Sydney Poore"  wrote:

> Yes, and its patronizing to write a blog post about NPOV policy directed
> at the community members who organize community outreach events for
> feminists.
>
> Especially condescending towards art+feminism community organizers who
> brilliantly executed a well thought out plan that included pre-event
> training materials and sessions, as well as materials to be used the day of
> the event.
>
> Maybe, we could assume that the people planning the events understand
> Wikipedia policy and don't need to be schooled about basic policy.
>
> The blog portrays the attitude that feminists who plan events are not true
> members of the community and need special scrutiny to keep them from
> ruining content.
>
> This is exactly the type of attitude that makes Wikipedia an unwelcoming
> place for people who are not part of the dominant demographic group or are
> newcomers with enthusiasm for improving Wikipedia.
>
> Sydney
> User:FloNight
> On Apr 9, 2015 2:30 PM, "Ryan Kaldari"  wrote:
>
>> I find the entire premise of this essay to be a bit misguided. Do we
>> really need to worry about tamping down the trickle of feminists editing
>> art articles on Wikipedia? There are easily ten times more men's rights
>> activists editing Wikipedia than feminists, and they actively organize
>> off-wiki to subvert NPOV. Why does no one care about that? Why not write a
>> blog post about men's rights activists running meat-puppet campaigns and
>> trying to white-wash articles about rape and domestic violence? If
>> anything, having a handful of feminists on Wikipedia might serve to keep
>> them in check.
>>
>> "Also, don't revise existing articles because you feel there is a male
>> bias in them."
>> This is terrible advice. For example, I significantly revised the
>> "dating" article a few years ago because it had an obvious male bias and
>> seemed to be intended only for a male audience. Why should people leave
>> articles with a male bias? NPOV doesn't mean leave articles with whatever
>> bias they started with.
>>
>> Also, I find it strange that your article implies that feminists can't
>> write from a neutral point of view. Feminism is about equality of the sexes
>> and opposing stereotypes and biases. It isn't about making women look
>> better than men or excluding the male point of view. I think feminists make
>> great Wikipedia editors. Look at Adrianne Wadewitz: 37 featured articles! I
>> would gladly take 1000 more Adrianne Wadewitzs as Wikipedia editors!
>>
>> Kaldari
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, J Hayes  wrote:
>>
>>> nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
>>> "
>>>
>>> *What we don't need, however, is more feminists."*
>>> is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"
>>>
>>> as Djembayz said at Signpost:
>>> "the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
>>> behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
>>> sea-lioning  randos who
>>> congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
>>> impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."
>>>
>>> until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
>>> thesis will be a dead letter with me.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
 Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.

 What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are
 interested in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without
 being hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can
 be neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.

 Warm regards,
 Sydney Poore
 User:FloNight
 On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
 lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:

> Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,
>
> My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).
>
> I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
> 
> and was encouraged to share it with this list.
>
> As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
> comments.
> Regards,
>
> Lukas Mezger
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Sydney Poore]

Yes, and its patronizing to write a blog post about NPOV policy directed at
the community members who organize community outreach events for feminists.

Especially condescending towards art+feminism community organizers who
brilliantly executed a well thought out plan that included pre-event
training materials and sessions, as well as materials to be used the day of
the event.

Maybe, we could assume that the people planning the events understand
Wikipedia policy and don't need to be schooled about basic policy.

The blog portrays the attitude that feminists who plan events are not true
members of the community and need special scrutiny to keep them from
ruining content.

This is exactly the type of attitude that makes Wikipedia an unwelcoming
place for people who are not part of the dominant demographic group or are
newcomers with enthusiasm for improving Wikipedia.

Sydney
User:FloNight
On Apr 9, 2015 2:30 PM, "Ryan Kaldari"  wrote:

> I find the entire premise of this essay to be a bit misguided. Do we
> really need to worry about tamping down the trickle of feminists editing
> art articles on Wikipedia? There are easily ten times more men's rights
> activists editing Wikipedia than feminists, and they actively organize
> off-wiki to subvert NPOV. Why does no one care about that? Why not write a
> blog post about men's rights activists running meat-puppet campaigns and
> trying to white-wash articles about rape and domestic violence? If
> anything, having a handful of feminists on Wikipedia might serve to keep
> them in check.
>
> "Also, don't revise existing articles because you feel there is a male
> bias in them."
> This is terrible advice. For example, I significantly revised the "dating"
> article a few years ago because it had an obvious male bias and seemed to
> be intended only for a male audience. Why should people leave articles with
> a male bias? NPOV doesn't mean leave articles with whatever bias they
> started with.
>
> Also, I find it strange that your article implies that feminists can't
> write from a neutral point of view. Feminism is about equality of the sexes
> and opposing stereotypes and biases. It isn't about making women look
> better than men or excluding the male point of view. I think feminists make
> great Wikipedia editors. Look at Adrianne Wadewitz: 37 featured articles! I
> would gladly take 1000 more Adrianne Wadewitzs as Wikipedia editors!
>
> Kaldari
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, J Hayes  wrote:
>
>> nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
>> "
>>
>> *What we don't need, however, is more feminists."*
>> is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"
>>
>> as Djembayz said at Signpost:
>> "the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
>> behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
>> sea-lioning  randos who
>> congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
>> impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."
>>
>> until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
>> thesis will be a dead letter with me.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
>>> Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.
>>>
>>> What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are
>>> interested in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without
>>> being hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can
>>> be neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>> Sydney Poore
>>> User:FloNight
>>> On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
>>> lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>>>
 Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,

 My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).

 I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
 
 and was encouraged to share it with this list.

 As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
 comments.
 Regards,

 Lukas Mezger

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 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing,
 please visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>> To manage yo

Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Keilana]

Well said, Kaldari.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:29 PM, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> I find the entire premise of this essay to be a bit misguided. Do we
> really need to worry about tamping down the trickle of feminists editing
> art articles on Wikipedia? There are easily ten times more men's rights
> activists editing Wikipedia than feminists, and they actively organize
> off-wiki to subvert NPOV. Why does no one care about that? Why not write a
> blog post about men's rights activists running meat-puppet campaigns and
> trying to white-wash articles about rape and domestic violence? If
> anything, having a handful of feminists on Wikipedia might serve to keep
> them in check.
>
> "Also, don't revise existing articles because you feel there is a male
> bias in them."
> This is terrible advice. For example, I significantly revised the "dating"
> article a few years ago because it had an obvious male bias and seemed to
> be intended only for a male audience. Why should people leave articles with
> a male bias? NPOV doesn't mean leave articles with whatever bias they
> started with.
>
> Also, I find it strange that your article implies that feminists can't
> write from a neutral point of view. Feminism is about equality of the sexes
> and opposing stereotypes and biases. It isn't about making women look
> better than men or excluding the male point of view. I think feminists make
> great Wikipedia editors. Look at Adrianne Wadewitz: 37 featured articles! I
> would gladly take 1000 more Adrianne Wadewitzs as Wikipedia editors!
>
> Kaldari
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, J Hayes  wrote:
>
>> nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
>> "
>>
>> *What we don't need, however, is more feminists."*
>> is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"
>>
>> as Djembayz said at Signpost:
>> "the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
>> behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
>> sea-lioning  randos who
>> congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
>> impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."
>>
>> until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
>> thesis will be a dead letter with me.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
>>> Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.
>>>
>>> What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are
>>> interested in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without
>>> being hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can
>>> be neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>> Sydney Poore
>>> User:FloNight
>>> On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
>>> lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>>>
 Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,

 My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).

 I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
 
 and was encouraged to share it with this list.

 As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
 comments.
 Regards,

 Lukas Mezger

 ___
 Gendergap mailing list
 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing,
 please visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Rob]

"Well, if you want to write articles about French women painters, go
ahead. But you shouldn't do it just because you want more articles
about women on Wikipedia."

Why not?  Nobody says this to the people who write articles about
trains or video games.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:
> I find the entire premise of this essay to be a bit misguided. Do we really
> need to worry about tamping down the trickle of feminists editing art
> articles on Wikipedia? There are easily ten times more men's rights
> activists editing Wikipedia than feminists, and they actively organize
> off-wiki to subvert NPOV. Why does no one care about that? Why not write a
> blog post about men's rights activists running meat-puppet campaigns and
> trying to white-wash articles about rape and domestic violence? If anything,
> having a handful of feminists on Wikipedia might serve to keep them in
> check.
>
> "Also, don't revise existing articles because you feel there is a male bias
> in them."
> This is terrible advice. For example, I significantly revised the "dating"
> article a few years ago because it had an obvious male bias and seemed to be
> intended only for a male audience. Why should people leave articles with a
> male bias? NPOV doesn't mean leave articles with whatever bias they started
> with.
>
> Also, I find it strange that your article implies that feminists can't write
> from a neutral point of view. Feminism is about equality of the sexes and
> opposing stereotypes and biases. It isn't about making women look better
> than men or excluding the male point of view. I think feminists make great
> Wikipedia editors. Look at Adrianne Wadewitz: 37 featured articles! I would
> gladly take 1000 more Adrianne Wadewitzs as Wikipedia editors!
>
> Kaldari
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, J Hayes  wrote:
>>
>> nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
>> "What we don't need, however, is more feminists."
>>
>> is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"
>>
>> as Djembayz said at Signpost:
>> "the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
>> behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
>> sea-lioning randos who congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous
>> as they wish, with impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."
>>
>> until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
>> thesis will be a dead letter with me.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
>>> Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.
>>>
>>> What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are interested
>>> in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without being hindered.
>>> Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can be neutral
>>> without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>> Sydney Poore
>>> User:FloNight
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)"
>>>  wrote:

 Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,

 My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).

 I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism and was
 encouraged to share it with this list.

 As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
 comments.
 Regards,

 Lukas Mezger

 ___
 Gendergap mailing list
 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
 visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Ryan Kaldari]

I find the entire premise of this essay to be a bit misguided. Do we really
need to worry about tamping down the trickle of feminists editing art
articles on Wikipedia? There are easily ten times more men's rights
activists editing Wikipedia than feminists, and they actively organize
off-wiki to subvert NPOV. Why does no one care about that? Why not write a
blog post about men's rights activists running meat-puppet campaigns and
trying to white-wash articles about rape and domestic violence? If
anything, having a handful of feminists on Wikipedia might serve to keep
them in check.

"Also, don't revise existing articles because you feel there is a male bias
in them."
This is terrible advice. For example, I significantly revised the "dating"
article a few years ago because it had an obvious male bias and seemed to
be intended only for a male audience. Why should people leave articles with
a male bias? NPOV doesn't mean leave articles with whatever bias they
started with.

Also, I find it strange that your article implies that feminists can't
write from a neutral point of view. Feminism is about equality of the sexes
and opposing stereotypes and biases. It isn't about making women look
better than men or excluding the male point of view. I think feminists make
great Wikipedia editors. Look at Adrianne Wadewitz: 37 featured articles! I
would gladly take 1000 more Adrianne Wadewitzs as Wikipedia editors!

Kaldari

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, J Hayes  wrote:

> nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
> "
>
> *What we don't need, however, is more feminists."*
> is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"
>
> as Djembayz said at Signpost:
> "the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
> behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
> sea-lioning  randos who
> congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
> impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."
>
> until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
> thesis will be a dead letter with me.
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
> wrote:
>
>> This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
>> Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.
>>
>> What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are interested
>> in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without being
>> hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can be
>> neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Sydney Poore
>> User:FloNight
>> On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
>> lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,
>>>
>>> My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).
>>>
>>> I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
>>> 
>>> and was encouraged to share it with this list.
>>>
>>> As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
>>> comments.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Lukas Mezger
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
> ___
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> visit:
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[Gendergap] National Women's Studies Association (NWSA) partners with Wiki Education Foundation

[Amanda Menking]

http://www.nwsa.org/content.asp?pl=17&sl=111&contentid=111
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[J Hayes]

nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:
"

*What we don't need, however, is more feminists."*
is labeling and the double standard of "civility enforcement"

as Djembayz said at Signpost:
"the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
sea-lioning  randos who
congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to."

until the systemic bias in "civility enforcement" is dealt with, your
thesis will be a dead letter with me.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore 
wrote:

> This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
> Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.
>
> What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are interested
> in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without being
> hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can be
> neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.
>
> Warm regards,
> Sydney Poore
> User:FloNight
> On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
> lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:
>
>> Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,
>>
>> My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).
>>
>> I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
>> 
>> and was encouraged to share it with this list.
>>
>> As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
>> comments.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Lukas Mezger
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
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> visit:
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Fæ]

I think it would be better to drop, or tone down the bit about:
"But stay away if your actions are in any way motivated by a certain
interest, or worse, a social agenda."

We want expert editors and that's not possible if they are being
pushed away. Maybe consider re-writing it to promote the idea that
editor training/on-line help should address the barrier of how to
write from a neutral point of view, even if your motivation is as an
activist.

P.S. I speak from the experience of getting banned when trying to do
something about LGBT content and being naive about how best to handle
on-line harassment (which you cannot call "sexist" or "homophobic" on
Wikipedia, even when in any other forum it would be considered
blatantly so, without that bouncing back on you as bad faith).

Fae

On 9 April 2015 at 00:08, Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)
 wrote:
> Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,
>
> My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).
>
> I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism and was encouraged to
> share it with this list.
>
> As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your comments.
> Regards,
>
> Lukas Mezger
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Sydney Poore]

This part of the "we" of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.

What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are interested
in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without being
hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can be
neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.

Warm regards,
Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, "Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)" <
lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de> wrote:

> Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,
>
> My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).
>
> I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
> 
> and was encouraged to share it with this list.
>
> As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
> comments.
> Regards,
>
> Lukas Mezger
>
> ___
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> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
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[Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia)]

Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,

My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).

I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism

and was encouraged to share it with this list.

As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your comments.
Regards,

Lukas Mezger
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