Re: [Gendergap] "WikiTribune" and gender gap

[Carol Moore dc]

On 5/27/2017 3:24 AM, Peter Southwood wrote:

If that means "one or two", I agree with you. If it means "half", I would 
prefer getting one that is completely professional :-)
Cheers,
Peter


If WikiTribune is hiring 3 editors, 1 or 2 would be good. Your inference 
that it is hard to find even one woman who is completely professional is 
questionable.


Since the foundation itself is hiring and is committed to more women, 
I'd like to think it should not reflect the male dominance and even 
sexism of current journalism hiring practices.


Now it is true a lot of women are discouraged from journalism even at 
the college level by hostility of male journalists and editors, not to 
mention the far higher number of nasty letters to the editors or readers 
emails to them.  It's the sexism of the internet world.


But those women who make it through often are more professional than 
guys who fly through on the fact they're good old boys.





-Original Message-
From: Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Carol Moore dc
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2017 6:05 PM
To: Wikimedia Gender Gap email list
Subject: [Gendergap] "WikiTribune" and gender gap

Just found out about this. I wonder if they'll break down and hire at least 1/2 
professional FEMALE journalists.

I hope that the most biased Wikipedia male trolls will not be among the "community 
members".

New project for whatever Gender Gap projects in Wikimedia are most effective.  
(Anyone want to do an analysis of those projects? I confess I'm way out of the 
loop.)


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/25/wikipedias-jimmy-wales-founds-wikitribune-to-fight-fake-news.html
The homepage of the website states: "Articles are authored, fact-checked, and 
verified by professional journalists and community members working side by side as 
equals, and supported not primarily by advertisers, but by readers who care about good 
journalism enough to become monthly supporters."

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Re: [Gendergap] the poem gap

[Carol Moore dc]

Given Mother's Day coming up, note that Julia Ward Howe's "Mother's Day 
Proclamation" poem does have an article. So there is some good news!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day_Proclamation

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[Gendergap] "WikiTribune" and gender gap

[Carol Moore dc]

Just found out about this. I wonder if they'll break down and hire at 
least 1/2 professional FEMALE journalists.


I hope that the most biased Wikipedia male trolls will not be among the 
"community members".


New project for whatever Gender Gap projects in Wikimedia are most 
effective.  (Anyone want to do an analysis of those projects? I confess 
I'm way out of the loop.)



http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/25/wikipedias-jimmy-wales-founds-wikitribune-to-fight-fake-news.html
The homepage of the website states: "Articles are authored, 
fact-checked, and verified by professional journalists and community 
members working side by side as equals, and supported not primarily by 
advertisers, but by readers who care about good journalism enough to 
become monthly supporters."


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Re: [Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls - Email filters?

[Carol Moore dc]

Having had a thousand nasty and threatening messages from someone who 
used about 40 different emails, I still wouldn't like moderation. Is 
there a way to retroactively check emails? I guess the headers are it, 
and I always sent those (they were all yahoo mail).


On 2/12/2017 2:25 PM, Risker wrote:

I am extremely, extremely uncomfortable with email moderation. I cannot
emphasize this enough.  Frankly, I'd rather the NSA be reading my mail
than my fellow Wikimedians - they have no actual interest in anything
that I'm writing. If moderation became standard, I'd shut off "email
this user". It would be a cure far worse than the disease.



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Re: [Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls

[Carol Moore dc]

Good point...

On 2/9/2017 1:01 PM, JJ Marr wrote:

It's not our moral role as Wikipedians and it's not the role of the
Wikimedia foundation to take a deeply investigative role of harassment.
We can block harassers when proof is brought to us, but finding them is
difficult and is a task that should be handled by the respective
platforms themselves. If someone is harassing someone off-wiki, we
shouldn't play detective when we can just share the information we have
(in accordance with the privacy policy) and let other places perform
their own investigations.

On Feb 9, 2017 12:43 PM, "Carol Moore dc" mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


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Re: [Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls

[Carol Moore dc]

Hopefully having a metric will make it easier to stop obvious harassment 
within Wikipedia. I complained for a year to several admins and in at 
least one ANI on a related topic about the one male ideologue who 
followed me to many and then eventually most articles to criticize, 
insult and revert me. But it wasn't til a male editor noticed and 
complained to ANI about an obviously biased revert being part of a 
pattern of his harassing me that an admin - and eventually Arbitators- 
finally sanctioned him with one way interaction band.


I agree defacto therapy is a good way to deal with guys who 
psychologically can't handle having women criticizing and reverting 
them.  It won't stop committed ideologues like the above, but at least 
it will slow them down and discourage them.


As for the offline harassers, I had my problems in 2011 when Wikimedia 
Foundation was pretty slow to respond even though they'd dealt with 
aserial harasser of men and women who was kicked off wikipedia years go. 
He just decided to pick on me over some issue he disagreed with, 
including a 1000 odd death threats delivered via email through the 
wikifoundation email system. It took several months after my complaints 
to them before it stopped and I don't know if foundation stopped it. A 
year or so later I got a short string of threats. (Since he was on other 
side of country and known for this I didn't contact police cause who 
needs feds rummaging around their computer? If he was in neighborhood I 
might have.)


Re: other harassment in multiple forums. One thing they could use the 
money for is a couple internet detectives who could identify the 
harasser's various handles and get them kicked off forums where they are 
harassing (twitter/FB/etc.).  Even get them kicked off their internet 
provider if possible. Of course, there'd have to be some adjustment of 
the outing policy.  Like, it's OK for the foundation to do it if it's a 
serious problem?  Or is that the policy now?


CM


On 2/7/2017 5:09 AM, Fæ wrote:

I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this
money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt
down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.

For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know
that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki,
sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is
for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to
close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the
associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid
path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is
affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target
vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this
money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent
harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their
behaviour.

I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or
homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention,
for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An
approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support
to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an
effective and long-term solution.

Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that
long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something
they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd
much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software
development, and the majority spent setting up support services that
handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who
are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.

Fae

On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc  wrote:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781

Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent
dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to
edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.

I just hope it helps!!

I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other
goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all
the time about what they have to do to edit safely!

CM

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[Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781



CM

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[Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781

Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I 
spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" 
dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.


I just hope it helps!!

I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished 
other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to 
warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!


CM

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[Gendergap] 100 Wikidays challenge for women's article

[Carol Moore dc]

Cool project! 100 new articles about women!

This group is for people who are taking the #100wikidays personal 
challenge. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/100wikidays for details.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/1426807560950747/permalink/1657700921194742/

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Re: [Gendergap] Good news from EN Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

An interesting related question is: How many admins are approved whose 
sex is totally unknown?? Similarly desysopped


On 1/11/2017 1:55 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:

Ealdgyth has just set a new record for an unopposed request for
adminship. She had 250 supports and no opposes, breaking Sarah Stierch's
2012 record of 217 0 by 33 supports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Times_that_200_Wikipedians_supported_an_RFX

Jonathan




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Re: [Gendergap] In memory of User:Danveg

[Carol Moore dc]

On 1/9/2017 2:32 PM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen wrote:

Thanks! I've been on a roll creating articles from the Women in Red
list, but have found that some on the list are not actually women (cis
or trans), but non-binary or trans men. That's a separate topic for
discussion, but others are welcome to weigh on it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red#Skyler_Cooper.27s_gender_identity

- Pax



And if you think that's complicated, wait til all those transwomen and 
transmen start detransitioning back to their "natal sex."  (Especially 
lesbians who decide that they've been pressured by sex stereotypes and 
society to reject their butch nature and want it back.)


A topic that probably will be covered more in the future than here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual#Regrets_and_detransitions

One bio where this sort of thing might be relevant is 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Arquette where Alexis' well known 
sister and brother (as well as boyfriend) stated to RS that Arquette was 
beginning to reject the ideology and even to "detransition." So if 
someone decided to take on that, obviously it would be an interesting 
discussion of RS, rumor, accuracy of sources, etc.


Of course, detransitioning will be more in the younger generation of 
notable personalities. Older generations often had decades to think 
about it before they took concrete transitioning steps. (Though lots of 
RS keep waiting for Caitlyn Jenner to do it so they can make money 
covering that side of the story.)


Today a lot of sexually confused young people have been led into it by 
advocacy groups, school counselors, doctors - and even parents who would 
prefer their child be of the opposite sex (sometimes because they are 
terrified otherwise the child will be gay!)


Then as they go into their late teens and early 20s they are becoming 
more independent and able to judge how much others influenced them. Some 
already are considering lawsuits against schools and advocacy groups 
they feel pushed them into a decision they now regret.


So this is a whole new area with lots of personal accounts and 
mainstream RS sources, though I'm sure it may be a while before anyone 
safely could expand that section of the article, create a new article, 
or write much about detransitioning celebrities.



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Re: [Gendergap] They want to delete First Ladies now?

[Carol Moore dc]

Way back when there was a study, probably up on the Wikimedia gender gap 
page, indicating it was a bigger problem on sex and gender related articles.


On 1/6/2017 11:53 AM, Jonathan Cardy wrote:

Deletionism is a longstanding problem on Wikipedia, I don't know if
there is a gender skew to the targets. The good thing about that
particular template is that as it can be removed by anyone for any
reason, though unless you respond to the reason they gave you risk them
escalating to another form of deletion.

Regards

Jonathan


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Re: [Gendergap] They want to delete First Ladies now?

[Carol Moore dc]

These guys don't even bother to do a little info search to see if the 
person might have lots of interesting RS info about them.


On 1/6/2017 9:52 AM, Johanna-Hypatia Cybeleia wrote:

It was a bit of a shock to see on Nell Arthur
's page an imminent threat of
deletion. I wouldn't have thought an article on a First Lady could be so
vulnerable. Somebody is claiming that she has no notability just for
being married to the vice president who became president after her
death. It took me about 5 minutes to find RS for the fact that she was
indeed notable and she had everything to do with getting her husband's
political career going. He could not have accomplished what he did
without her.

smh

So I edited that fact in; in fact, I created a new section headed
"Political career." Now I can remove the deletion threat (just in time
before the ax falls!), but I became alarmed: Which other articles on
women are under this threat? OK, I'm biased: I come from the town named
after her dad. I couldn't just let her slip away.

Below is the text of the notice, one I haven't seen before, and it has
an alarming red-bordered appearance right up on top of the article, not
the talk page.

For equality,
J.Hy

It is *proposed that this article be deleted
* because of
the following concern:

Notability is not inherited, and subject only seems to really be
known for her marriage to Chester A. Arthur
. No indication of
meeting WP:Notability (people)
 at all.

If you can address this concern by improving
, copyediting
, sourcing
,
 renaming
, or merging
 the page, *please edit
this page
* and do
so. /You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise
object to deletion for any reason/. Although not required, you are
encouraged to explain why you object to the deletion, either in your
edit summary or on the talk page. If this template is removed, *do not
replace it
*.

The article may be deleted if this message remains in place for seven
days, i.e., after 06:27, 7 January 2017 (UTC).
If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider
improving the article so that it is acceptable according to the deletion
policy .


*Nominator:* Please consider notifying the author/project: |{{subst
:proposed deletion
notify
|Nell
Arthur|concern=Notability is not inherited, and subject only seems to
really be known for her marriage to [[Chester A. Arthur]]. No indication
of meeting [[WP:Notability (people)]] at all.}} |


--
__
I have been woman
for a long time
beware my smile

--Audre Lorde


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[Gendergap] Need "Toxic masculinity" article

[Carol Moore dc]

It's turned into a real thing with lots of good refs.

There are lots of RS articles.  And search Duke Universities program and 
you'll find lots more.  In between all the men's rights articles 
denouncing such a program.


Obviously it will take a brave soul to do it. And lots of research to 
track the etymology and use. (This non-RS article asserts it came from 
mens right movement which should be checked out. 
https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebates/comments/1voxgf/toxic_masculinity_came_from_mens_activists_not/ 




And make sure you do the full version right off with lots of refs or you 
know it will be AfD ASAP.


It is possible it should be a subset of: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity - o investigate that


Have fun if anyone decides to do it.

A few mostly RS links below:

http://www.salon.com/topic/toxic_masculinity/ - including
* 
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/12/toxic_masculinity_is_killing_men_the_roots_of_male_trauma_partner/
* 
http://www.salon.com/2016/06/13/overcompensation_nation_its_time_to_admit_that_toxic_masculinity_drives_gun_violence/


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/06/toxic-masculinity-and-mass-murder/486983/

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-between-toxic-masculinity-and-being-a-man-dg/

http://yaleherald.com/op-eds/toxic-masculinity/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/opinion/donald-trumps-toxic-masculinity.html

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/10/talking-toxic-masculinity

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/01/us-university-offers-course-for-men-to-deconstruct-toxic-masculi/

https://www.bustle.com/articles/188966-the-duke-university-mens-project-dismantles-toxic-masculinity-its-just-one-of-a-growing-number

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/02/duke-offers-men-safe-space-to-contemplate-their-toxic-masculinity.html

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Re: [Gendergap] Needed fixes on women-related issues

[Carol Moore dc]

OK, being off wikipedia, I'm getting sloppy... here's a relevant link to 
this discussion, so I don't get spanked...


On 10/31/2016 11:05 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote:


(And let's not start on the double standards vs. Clinton. I just found
out 60 US employees were killed in attacks on US Embassies under Bush!!!)


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/may/12/john-garamendi/prior-benghazi-were-there-13-attacks-embassies-and/

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[Gendergap] Needed fixes on women-related issues

[Carol Moore dc]

I'm obviously not pro-clinton but it does annoy me to see that in this 
article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy
there is no reference for the fact that Bush admin. deleted 22 million 
emails on a private server. (End of first paragraph and other details 
doubtless missing below that.)


Here's two recent ones if someone wants to plug them in.
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/george-w-bush-white-house-lost-22-million-emails-497373.html
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/web-video/missing-white-house-emails

(And let's not start on the double standards vs. Clinton. I just found 
out 60 US employees were killed in attacks on US Embassies under Bush!!!)



Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein (the sculptor) still 
is identified as the comedian in her categories section.


Thanks

Banned Carol  ;-()

(Still way behind on catch up on other projects so dare not even try to 
re-enter the wiki-swamp, even for innocuous fixes like these.)


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Re: [Gendergap] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

ha ha... just found out we can see at least beginning of Britannica 
entries including this one...


Wonder if it has a section on sexism (aka "gender gap" because who wants 
to go around saying "sex gap"? :-)




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[Gendergap] Inside Higher Ed: "The Woes of Wikipedia"

[Carol Moore dc]

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/library-babel-fish/woes-wikipedia

Good 8/23/16 summary of issues and past problems.

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[Gendergap] The largest Wikipedia gathering in South Asia kicks off

[Carol Moore dc]

Yay!!

https://opensource.com/life/16/8/wikipedia-conference-india-2016
The largest Wikipedia gathering in South Asia kicks off

"As compared to the last WikiConference India, this conference has more 
thematic focus, especially on challenges like the gender bias on 
Wikipedia, and emerging projects like the Wikipedia Education Program."



Note that the Indian women's program was a particular object of ridicule 
by the anti=gender gap editors...


CM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc

(Looking forward to ending my wikibreak in a few years when catch up 
with ALL my other projects; still barely scratched surface. Do have 3 of 
8 odd websites partially in Wordpress so far... And a couple new 
facebook topic pages; busy busy...)


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Re: [Gendergap] DARVO and harassment tactics

[Carol Moore dc]

Where's the thumbs up button?  :-)

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Re: [Gendergap] Ruth Barrett bio

[Carol Moore dc]

Dang, I should have found some refs first. See how out of practice I am!
I was sure I'd read it already was discussed by Time or something.

I'm sure that the bio will be quickly deleted, even after the book 
published and reviewed, while thousands of male bios with no refs 
survive. Sigh...


On 6/26/2016 9:45 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote:

The article as written contains no assertions, plausible or otherwise,
of notability. It reeks with redlinks and self-published "sources".


On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

It looks like her bio is being challenged just as the book she
edited is starting to get reliable source attention. In case anyone
wants to work on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Barrett

The book is "Female Erasure: What You Need To Know About Gender
Politics’, War On Woman, the Female Sex, and Human Rights"

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--
Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
and clothes."
 --  Desiderius Erasmus


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[Gendergap] Ruth Barrett bio

[Carol Moore dc]

It looks like her bio is being challenged just as the book she edited is 
starting to get reliable source attention. In case anyone wants to work 
on it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Barrett

The book is "Female Erasure: What You Need To Know About Gender 
Politics’, War On Woman, the Female Sex, and Human Rights"


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[Gendergap] Harvard Business School: "Why Do So Few Women Edit Wikipedia?"

[Carol Moore dc]

Results not very surprising...

Why Do So Few Women Edit Wikipedia?
https://hbr.org/2016/06/why-do-so-few-women-edit-wikipedia

review at:
http://www.attn.com/stories/8908/study-shows-gender-gap-on-wikipedia

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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

[Carol Moore dc]

I'd largely agree, but there are some men who you really can't tell if 
they are clueless to their bad behavior (which some are) or just 
pretending to be (which others are), even when you are with them in person.


On 5/12/2016 9:51 PM, JJ Marr wrote:

We shouldn't conflate "creepy" and "harassment" at all, to be honest.
Sure, plenty of things that are creepy are also harassment, but plenty
of things that are considered creepy are just poor social skills
(laughing inappropriately) and may even be due to health conditions
(greasy skin).

Harassment is a very serious allegation implying plenty of abuse, and
using the term in conjunction with "creepy" degrades it to a level not
befitting of what it truly is.

Also, saying "defining harassment" and then implying that the definition
of it is the "nature of creepiness" feels pretty discriminatory to those
who are less privileged in the area of social skills. Sometimes I don't
know when I'm talking about a subject for too long, and labelling that
"creepy" and implying it might be harassment seems to be crossing the
line for me.



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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

[Carol Moore dc]

A known woman discussing any issue in real life anywhere at all may turn 
into an online harassment issue.


Shall I dig up 20 or 30 links to women who've been harassed online by 
creepy guys because they discussed or disagreed with guys on ANY issue 
in real life, be it men in bathrooms, or violent video games played in 
living rooms, or some sexual harassment or assault that happened to them 
or a friend in real life?


On 5/12/2016 1:57 PM, Neotarf wrote:



@Carolmooredc, I don't see how that would be either an online harassment
issue or a Wikipedia issue, since on the internet, no one knows when
you're in the toilet.  Events likewise would be in the hands of the
event sponsor, although I did hear of one event where a man was
accompanied into the ladies room by a staff member in order to change a
baby diaper, as the men's room did not have the right facilities.

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

dare i say it... so one can see why a lot of women (and their male
relatives) are nervous about any guy who SAYS he's really a woman
getting into the bathrooms, fitting rooms, lock rooms, showers,
shelters and prisons with us...


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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

[Carol Moore dc]

dare i say it... so one can see why a lot of women (and their male 
relatives) are nervous about any guy who SAYS he's really a woman 
getting into the bathrooms, fitting rooms, lock rooms, showers, shelters 
and prisons with us...


ALSO, on another note, I'm putting wikipedia links on a small pro-choice 
site today but had to describe them as (quasi-accurate) though perhaps 
(quasi-credible) would be more accurate.


Cause who knows what guys have run what women off of the articles and 
put some weird spin on them and I just don't have time to go through 
every article and talk page to figure it out...


On 5/12/2016 12:25 PM, Neotarf wrote:

I'm not quite sure how to answer JJ Marr and Nathan, but if you watched
the Berkman panel I posted about earlier [1], the conclusion of the WMF
harassment survey is that the effect of harassment on women in
Wikipedia, is that they leave.

And not to beat around the bush, for those who are not going to read the
piece, the "certain topic" is sex, sex, and sex:

"...behaviors that were seen as being sexual or having a sexual edge to
them were far more likely to be creepy than more innocuous ones. Women,
especially, noted that behaviors like unwanted sexual advances,
constantly turning the conversation towards sex, requests for photos,
dates and invading their personal space were signs that a person was
creepy."

So this goes back to defining harassment.  How do you tell the
difference between someone who genuinely does not want to appear creepy,
as in the hotel example, and someone who is deliberately skirting the
boundaries, in order to harass people while flying under the radar.

There is a long history of defining harassment and "hostile work
environment" in employment situations.  For in-person interactions,
there is a whole set of non-verbal signals that tell you when to back
slowly away, the "odd smile" for example.  But obviously in online
communications, you are not going to be able to see how someone smiles.
Harassment on the internet is something new, the old HR harassment
definitions can't just be copy-pasted.

And how far can you go in telling someone they have to adjust to
something that creeps them out?  On enwiki, we have seen women advised
to "keep a low profile" if they don't want to be photoshopped onto
porn.  So the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is now "the
encyclopedia that anyone can edit as long as they don't mind potential
employers finding non-consensual pornographic images of them on the
internet".   Paradoxically, the WMF has gone the opposite direction from
arbcom, particularly in their recent safe space event policy, although
the means of enforcement are not very evident.


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2016-April/006300.html

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Isarra Yos mailto:zhoris...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Knowing what these traits are, even if they are uncontrollable, may
also be useful for educating others about them. If someone is
creeped out by something and actually knows why it's creeping them
out, it may be possible for them to realise that, oh, it's just
blah, and not actually a threat. And if on-wiki we notice someone
who might be put off by another user's behaviour, reaching out to
them and explaining why that behaviour is happening (especially if
it's fairly normal, which a lot of the things that may seem weird to
outsiders often are) could do a lot to put them at ease.

Possibly.

-I


On 10/05/16 17:02, JJ Marr wrote:


Other highlights:

From the list of "creepy" behavior

>Laughing at inappropriate times

>Talking too much about a topic

>Displaying too much or too little emotion

>Smiling peculiarly

>Having excessively pale skin

>Having bags under their eyes

and then

>Here’s the thing: not being creepy /isn’t that hard/.

>Many of the examples of creepy behavior listed in the Knox
University study could be avoided throughbasic social calibration
 and
being aware of the other person’s signals.

Setting aside that a lot of Wikipedians don't have "basic social
calibration", a lot of these behaviors are uncontrollable in
general. If you're "suggesting that Wikipedia editors display
aberrant behavior which prospective female editors find creepy,
making it less likely that they will contribute?", as another has
proposed, a lot (but not all) of these "creepy traits" that
allegedly make women less likely to contribute are uncontrollable
by those who have them. I need to stop smiling peculiarly? What
does that mean? And if we want to attract women to Wikipedia by
removing creepy people, does that mean I might get banned due to
me talking "too much" about a certain topic?

On May 10, 2016 12:25 PM, "Nathan"
<nawr...@gmail.com
> 

Re: [Gendergap] Study: men who receive harassment training “significantly less likely” to recognize harassment

[Carol Moore dc]

On 5/5/2016 2:56 PM, danc...@frontiernet.net wrote:


Anecdotally, some people actually have the idea that sexual harassment
is something that is only legally actionable when men do it to women
(which further adds heteronormativity as an implicit bias). Yet as of
2013 17.6% of the sexual-harassment claims filed with the U.S. Equal
Employment Opprtunity Commission were filed by men (source
).


Men tend to be more willing to complain about anything that bothers them 
than women.  It might be embarrassing for them to admit a woman OR a man 
harasses them, but there isn't as much shame and self-blame for men as 
for women.


Generally speaking...

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Re: [Gendergap] Cross-dressing and masculinity

[Carol Moore dc]

The real problem is 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#Gender_stereotypes


Of course "gender" stereotype is just a confusing word for sex 
stereotype. (After all, would we want to call this the "sex gap" group??)


I mean should a person who wants NO stereotype be forced to choose from 
one of a hundred stereotypes, like on Facebook?  Silly.


On 5/2/2016 1:42 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:

On the subject of masculinity, the English Wikipedia article on
masculinity mentions absolutely nothing about female masculinity. There
is no mention of butches, tomboys, drag kings, etc. This seems to be a
pretty huge hole in the article and a good example of Wikipedia's
systemic bias. There's an entire section on "Femininity in men" in the
Femininity article, but no equivalent for women in the masculinity
article. Jack Halberstam's book "Female Masculinity" would be a good
source to use for such a section.


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[Gendergap] Pushing back against sexism, this is a new era for women online

[Carol Moore dc]

http://techcrunch.com/2016/04/30/digital-and-visible-this-is-a-new-era-for-women-online/

One mention of Wikipedia.  But overall a positive article. Hope she's 
not being too optimistic.


Using twitter more, I've found replying to guys who insult you in a 
human and humorous way, with just enough ridicule so they get the point 
ridicule isn't fun, has been pretty successful.


But then I haven't gotten THAT much attention yet, so time will tell...

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[Gendergap] Partisan AfD on notable woman

[Carol Moore dc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kate_Smurthwaite

It's probably going to survive unless a lot of trolls join in, but FYI.

Here's what was recently done to her:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517874/Feminist-comedian-s-charity-gig-sabotaged-opponents-booked-tickets-en-masse-didn-t-turn-leaving-just-eight-people-audience-transphobic-whorephobic-Islamaphobic-views.html

I don't really know about the allegations, but obviously if there are 
reliable sources, some mention includable (not the massive paragraph so 
often promoted by partisans using Wikipedia!). But don't just delete it...


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Re: [Gendergap] Systematic tagging for deletion of articles created at Art And Feminism editathon

[Carol Moore dc]

Someone should write a letter to the editor of the those 5 or 6 
publications that came in my google alerts on the topic of the edit a 
thon. (Search news google to find them.)  And of course deal with the 
few legtimate complaints and the trolls with nonsense complaints.


On 3/12/2016 10:17 AM, Neotarf wrote:

All the articles created at Regina ArtAndFeminism event have been
tagged.   Ten of them have been submitted for deletion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Regina/ArtAndFeminism_2016/University_of_Regina

For example, see comments here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Risa_Horowitz


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Re: [Gendergap] Intnl Womens Days articles about sexism in Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

I saw various reprint variations of this, including
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/emily-temple-wood-wikipedia_us_56e0f90ce4b065e2e3d4dc33
"For Every Sexist Email She Gets, This College Student Will Write A 
Wikipedia Entry About A Woman Scientist"


On 3/9/2016 7:58 AM, Neotarf wrote:

Wikimedia blog: "The new alchemy: turning online harassment into
Wikipedia articles on women scientists" by Ed Erhart

http://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/03/08/alchemy-turning-harassment-into-women-scientists/

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-07/women-erased-from-history-on-wikipedia/7225556


http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_29600263/cu-boulder-students-combat-wikipedia-sexism-edit-thon
This must have been widely reprinted cause I got several different
versions of it in my google alert for "wikipedia" and "Sexism".





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[Gendergap] Intnl Womens Days articles about sexism in Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-07/women-erased-from-history-on-wikipedia/7225556

http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_29600263/cu-boulder-students-combat-wikipedia-sexism-edit-thon
This must have been widely reprinted cause I got several different 
versions of it in my google alert for "wikipedia" and "Sexism".






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Re: [Gendergap] 2 Rachel Feinsteins confused

[Carol Moore dc]

Rachel Feinstein comedian was created two years after the artist and it 
never occurred to anyone to do anything about it. So since Neotarf is 
retired and not choosing to get themselves reactivated (and I have no 
intention of reacting til at least age 70 in 2.8 years), if anyone else 
feels strongly they can do something about it.


On 3/4/2016 11:33 AM, Neotarf wrote:

Why is the comedian in the secondary spot? According to the pageview
history, this article, "Rachel Feinstein (comedian)", gets more than 200
pageviews a day, so this should be the primary topic, and does not need
disambiguation, i.e. "Rachel Feinstein".
https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/#start=2016-02-13&end=2016-03-03&project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&pages=Rachel_Feinstein_%28comedian%29

The sculptor only gets about 25 pagehits a day, so this is clearly the
secondary topic, and this is the article that should be disambiguated.
https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/#start=2016-02-13&end=2016-03-03&project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&pages=Rachel_Feinstein

If you just wanted to be nice to your readers, you could disambiguate
both, and just move "Rachel Feinstein" to "Rachel Feinstein (artist)"
and put a dab template  {{for|the artist |Rachel Feinstein (artist)}} at
the top of "Rachel Feinstein (comedian)".  By rights, if there are only
two articles for the same name, a separate disambiguation page is not
needed, but both articles should have a pointer to the other at the top.

For the naming guideline see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28people%29#Disambiguating

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

THANKS!!  CM


On 3/3/2016 8:56 PM, Robert Fernandez wrote:

I think I fixed most of the links.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

Oh, duh, FYI, I'm banned from editing or I'd do it myself.
If anyone needs a quicky project to end confusion on
wikipedia on which
    woman is which.

Thus the "thanks" :-)  CM


On 3/3/2016 9:54 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Rachel_Feinstein

Several people have linked comedy-related articles to the
sculptor/fashionista Rachel Feinstein article. I created
it at a
edit-a-thon a few years back.

The correct article link is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein_%28comedian%29

Thanks.

CM



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Re: [Gendergap] 2 Rachel Feinsteins confused

[Carol Moore dc]

THANKS!!  CM

On 3/3/2016 8:56 PM, Robert Fernandez wrote:

I think I fixed most of the links.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Carol Moore dc  wrote:

Oh, duh, FYI, I'm banned from editing or I'd do it myself.
If anyone needs a quicky project to end confusion on wikipedia on which
woman is which.

Thus the "thanks" :-)  CM


On 3/3/2016 9:54 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Rachel_Feinstein

Several people have linked comedy-related articles to the
sculptor/fashionista Rachel Feinstein article. I created it at a
edit-a-thon a few years back.

The correct article link is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein_%28comedian%29

Thanks.

CM




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Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 62, Issue 1

[Carol Moore dc]

Putting it in The Google I got this mirror site. I guess the actual list 
is not searchable.


 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.gendergap/6229

On 3/2/2016 4:58 PM, Natacha Rault wrote:

I encourage people to monitor discussions on meta about the qualifications for 
a ED, and comment not just about diversity issues but to otherwise make 
suggestions


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Re: [Gendergap] 2 Rachel Feinsteins confused

[Carol Moore dc]

Oh, duh, FYI, I'm banned from editing or I'd do it myself.
If anyone needs a quicky project to end confusion on wikipedia on which 
woman is which.


Thus the "thanks" :-)  CM

On 3/3/2016 9:54 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Rachel_Feinstein

Several people have linked comedy-related articles to the
sculptor/fashionista Rachel Feinstein article. I created it at a
edit-a-thon a few years back.

The correct article link is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein_%28comedian%29

Thanks.

CM

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[Gendergap] 2 Rachel Feinsteins confused

[Carol Moore dc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Rachel_Feinstein

Several people have linked comedy-related articles to the 
sculptor/fashionista Rachel Feinstein article. I created it at a 
edit-a-thon a few years back.


The correct article link is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein_%28comedian%29

Thanks.

CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[Carol Moore dc]

On 2/24/2016 12:02 AM, Rob wrote:
 Until now, I did not realize how many people saw The

Signpost not as an edgy outsider but as a Wikimedia institution and our
newspaper of record, and feel that it has a responsibility to act more
in the manner of The New York Times than The Village Voice. I don't want
The Signpost to become stodgy or staid, but I wonder if I shouldn't take
into account the views of those editors more often. It is heartening to
see how important The Signpost is to so many editors, and I'd like to
continue to be intellectually provocative while not needlessly offending
those editors.


Some of us who are known to lose it under pressure (which is another 
reason why people harass us), DO appreciate seeing the official organs 
encourage us to keep working in a civil manner. So that we can deal with 
not only harassment against us, but our own bad reactions to it. 
Feeding the trolls as the intemperate/machismo language did does NOT 
encourage a civil and productive atmosphere.


More importantly, it discourages the greater number of editors who can 
understand and agree with Wikimedia 5 pillars and produce quality 
contributions, the kind of talented editors that Wikimedia wants to attract.


(By the way, I had a senior moment and forgot what the "5 pillars" are 
called and trying to find them from the main page, content page, etc. 
came up with zip.  Looking here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

I only found one project page newbies might use linking to them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Menu

Are the trolls hiding them now? Maybe they have to be dropped back into 
a few general WP: project pages?


CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[Carol Moore dc]

I agree that is innocent enough. Both men and women refer to cute asses, 
and not just on humans!  :-)


On 2/21/2016 7:58 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

Compare the reaction that Keilana's Op-ed got with the reaction that the
Signpost article "Wikipedia's cute ass" got:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-12-17/Featured_content

Notice any differences?


Yes, it was a headline which did not swear; it only appeared to.  Not
a good counter example :/
It danced around 'the line' a little, intelligently, which is very
common for light hearted sections of even very serious publications.
It gets a few smiles, and people are not 'offended' - they just move
on if they didnt like it, provided it isnt over-done.



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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[Carol Moore dc]

I immediately searched for "double standard" and who but 
GuerrillaWarfare mentioned it. The arbitrator who suddenly decided "YES, 
CarolMooredc" should get kicked off Wikipedia. That after the other 
arbitrators already had voted to kicked me off off and I THEN complained 
that a gang of foulmouthed Manchester England editors who threw around 
"c*nt" and "Tw*t" were "gangbangers".


So I'm laughing at the irony.

At the time they argued about whether I meant rapists or thuggish 
gangmembers. I don't think there was much of a difference in my mind; 
there isn't right now anyway.


Otherwise, I doubt the title or the cursing helped and it might have 
been counterproductive.  The uncivil will say - "see women can be 
uncivil too, it's cool". They will not admitting even slightly uncivil 
women (unless they have strong male protectors) will be more strongly 
sanctioned than much more uncivil males. And civil individuals, male and 
female, will just be discouraged at best and disgusted at worst by this 
tactic.


Something more double entendre might have been effective, however!! ;-)

On 2/21/2016 8:31 AM, Neotarf wrote:

Op-ed about systemic bias and articles created.  Interesting double
standard about profanity in the comment section.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-17/Op-ed


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[Gendergap] Latest WMF brouhahas relevant to gender gap??

[Carol Moore dc]

Wondering if there is any particular relevance to the gender gap issue 
in the removal of one board member and protests against the new one? Or 
just a general "editor trust" issue, which makes many editors dis-trust 
any "close the gap" programs/initiatives by WMF?? (Or at least gives 
them an *excuse* to distrust them!)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Heilman
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:James_Heilman_Removal
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-doctor-is-out-says-wmf-board

AND

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnnon_Geshuri
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Vote_of_no_confidence_on_Arnnon_Geshuri
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/01/editors-demand-ouster-of-wikimedia-board-member-involved-in-no-poach-deal/

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[Gendergap] Telegraph: happy birthday sexist wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/happy-birthday-sexist-wikipedia-why-do-men-still-control-our-his/

Here we go again...

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[Gendergap] Men’s rights activists think a “hateful” feminist conspiracy is ruining Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

I don't remember seeing this one posted before and it's not in my saved 
emails.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/08/04/mens-rights-activists-think-a-hateful-feminist-conspiracy-is-ruining-wikipedia/

Funny to find this on first anniversary of day I was banned.

Gee, should I ask to let back in? Not...

I'm waiting for Wikimedia to put some money into hiring professional 
mediators, at least... They got the money...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12/02/wikipedia-has-a-ton-of-money-so-why-is-it-begging-you-to-donate-yours/

(Today's WashPost article that led to me the feminist conspiracy article.)

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Re: [Gendergap] What is proscription vs. Foundation hiring mediators etc.... Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile toWomen"

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/22/2015 7:36 PM, Risker wrote:

Carol, I think you're missing something important here.  Aside from the
fact that this would cost about $2 million a year, the structure you are
proposing would only be providing support for English Wikipedia.


First, even as a radical decentralist friendly to all sorts of 
governmental anarchism, I'm not into the kind of oppressive chaos that 
the current Wikipedia structure encourages... See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness

But let's say at most 30 mediators or arbitrators are hired just for 
English Wikipedia (what percentage of all articles/edits on all the 
wikipedias is that, by the way? 10% 30%? 80%?)


30 x $50,000 (salary and admin) = $1,500,000.  Add a few more hirees and 
or admin. expenses and perhaps higher salaries (though dozens of  level 
headed experienced editors would be delighted to make that much doing 
what they lover). You might reach $2 million a year.


And the Wikimedia Foundation's budget is $50 million a year? If WMF's 
flagship enterprise English WIKIPEDIA keeps getting these horrible 
mainstream media reviews, it's going to keep going down hill and soon 
enough those millions will dry up.


WMF should do this now before it's too late and too many editors are too 
discouraged by how out-dated and/or crappy so many articles have become 
they won't be interested in re-upping any more even if such changes are 
belatedly made.


OR a better alternative MIGHT come along. It doesn't take that many 
millions for some saavy entrepreneurs to copy the software and whole 
database of articles, throw on the required licenses, add just enough 
unobtrusive and/or entertaining tech advertisements to pay the bills, 
and recruit a bunch of editors because of their ability to swiftly deal 
with trolls/sockpuppets/undeclared paid editors/extreme partisans and to 
provide good mediators for honestly disagreeing editors. They might even 
offer small financial incentives and the potential to graduate to a 
part- for full-time employment as admin/mediator/arbitrator.


I know of some billionaires fed up with certain vicious POV pushing on 
Wikipedia who might be talked into it by the right entrepreneurs. Too 
bad I clam up when rich people are in the vicinity... Must overcome that 
hangup!! ;-)


CM





On 22 October 2015 at 19:08, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


b) Change structure so 10-20 (as needed) mediators are hired and
trained to be professional. They'll also be given admin powers and
will take on harder cases volunteer admins and other dispute
resolution processes can't handle. (Structured processes for dealing
with alleged abuses will be implemented.) The Foundation will set a
firm goal of at least 50% women hirees.

c) Change structure so 4-6 arbitrators are hired but only used for
most intractable or original issues. (Structured processes for
dealing with alleged abuses will be implemented.) The Foundation
will set a firm goal of at least 50% women hirees.



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Re: [Gendergap] What is proscription vs. Foundation hiring mediators etc.... Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile toWomen"

[Carol Moore dc]

It seems like every time I ask this question I get vague answers 
regarding "legal issues" "liability" "can't determine content" 
"community backlash" etc. Yet under 
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use it looks like there is 
more than enough room for the Foundation to propose and make it VERY 
clear it supports things like:


a) Make Wikimedia mediation training a requirement for applying as 
admin. And term limit admins (say, one year off for every two years on). 
Make an informal quota of 25% plus women and continuously encourage 
women to apply.


b) Change structure so 10-20 (as needed) mediators are hired and trained 
to be professional. They'll also be given admin powers and will take on 
harder cases volunteer admins and other dispute resolution processes 
can't handle. (Structured processes for dealing with alleged abuses will 
be implemented.) The Foundation will set a firm goal of at least 50% 
women hirees.


c) Change structure so 4-6 arbitrators are hired but only used for most 
intractable or original issues. (Structured processes for dealing with 
alleged abuses will be implemented.) The Foundation will set a firm goal 
of at least 50% women hirees.


d) Change structure so editors who step out of line too often will have 
to phone verify who they are and register with a verified account. 
Enforcing this will be another job for "arbitrators".


e) Foundation advertises new policies far and wide so that editors fed 
up with the nonsense will come back in such numbers that losing the 
50-100 chronic editor and admin abusers of the system will be no great 
loss.  (Wales has invited such people to quit, and said more users would 
come back if they did, but still doesn't want to make necessary 
Foundation policy changes to make this happen.)


Without these changes decent editors will continue to stay away or be 
driven away in droves.


In the last week I've read at least 10 articles - biographies and 
factual articles on countries and policies -  that were severely 
outdated, with 2012-13 seemingly the last time most were updated. I'd 
hate to see what happened if I checked references for various 
assertions. It's pretty sad...



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Re: [Gendergap] Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile to Women"

[Carol Moore dc]

I confess I had too much fun sparring with them yesterday, but had 
enough and don't feel like responding to last half dozen responses to 
myself, or those to lots of others who were sympathetic to the views of 
so many women on Wikipedia.


The "arguments" are so much like the harassment we got on GGTF, though 
with more direct insults.  Basically: Prove there's sexism; prove that 
more articles about or by women are AfD'd; prove that you women aren't 
just a lot of victim whiners who just need to man up.  Plus various 
absurd ruminations on the wickedness of women in general...


Unfortunately, I haven't looked at what's currently easily available on 
either Wikipedia/GGTF or Wikimedia/Gender gap as links that answer these 
most typical questions... Too tired today...


Been watching Benghazi hearing and see the same old thing: harass 
Hillary with petty nonsense to make her look bad.  But don't identify 
the real crime: did securing the weapons mean rounding them up for 
rebels in Syria, something that would be illegal under US law? Were the 
attackers pissed off cause US wouldn't give THEM the weapons?


Like on Wikipedia, harass a woman for every little misspeak or misstep 
but don't admit the real issue is you hate a) women and/or b) their POV 
on some issue(s) and want them gone.


Of course the difference is many Republicans (like McCain) supported 
arming the Syrian rebels. However, generally those with similar POVs on 
Wikipedia don't attack each other unrelentingly, even if they are 
females.  Then it's "you take your allies where you can get them."


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[Gendergap] Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile to Women"

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/how-wikipedia-is-hostile-to-women/411619/

Goes into lots of details...


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Re: [Gendergap] Video Q&A discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

[Carol Moore dc]

What we really need is trained mediators who have admin powers to 
sanction those who refuse to engage in mediation or who refuse to change 
their wicked ways.


And since there job is enhancing civility on Wikipedia, which is one of 
the goals of the foundation, maybe foundation could figure out a way to 
pay them and to make sure that cabals of rednecked wankers can't drive 
them out. (My own noun and adjective.)


Then far fewer things would get to untrained Arbcom %#(&$. Haven't 
listened to presentation to get appropriate adjective from it, but will 
soon. (Had a family wedding out of state so couldn't make it to the 
Wikiconference here in dc.  DANG!!)


Now someone has to promote this to media, especially the guy from Slate 
who seems pretty on top of things...




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Re: [Gendergap] Reminder on Moderation...Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/6/2015 4:16 AM, Hannah Penntreth wrote:

I didn't respond because responding to misogyny like "Well done,
feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work" is pointless. Don't
wrestle the pig, you just get muddy and the pig likes it.

Ogress



Unfortunately, I was more interested in comparing the misogyny of the 
article's message to that I've seen on WP, so didn't immediately  take 
it as negatively as a couple other people did.


We should remember this is a moderated list and the currently listed 
moderators are:  kgorman at gmail.com, keilanawiki at gmail.com, leigh 
at hypatia.ca


(Unless list needs updating?)

In case there should be future issues members want to take to them 
privately.


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Re: [Gendergap] address the source of anger

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/6/2015 9:32 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:

carol rightly pointed out to not mix mail threads, so let me create a
dedicated thread. do you think there is a possibility to address the
source of anger, and dealing with anger in a better way we do now? see
for some initial reasoning below. my hypothesis is that 95% of
wikiverse harassment falls in the "anger" category. many examples i
saw up to now were caused by some sort of ignorance, on purpose or
without knowing.

best,
rupert


If you look at the mass shootings by young males over the last few years 
a prominent theme is their inability to connect to other people and 
especially to get girl friends. There even have been explicit complaints 
of rejection by women.


A lot of the issue is the "Male surplus" of males outnumbering women and 
thus have little prospect of marriage. This has been written about a lot 
in countries like China and India where there actually is sex selective 
abortion of girls and even starving or killing of them after birth.  In 
each country there are upwards of 20 million "surplus" males. This is 
recognized as a social problem since these guys often are frustrated and 
attracted to violent gang or political activity.


However, "Male surplus" also is an issue in advanced countries, though 
sex selection is only a minor part of the problem. Biologically around 
106 boys are born to 100 girls. However, because boy babies are more 
physically frail and older boys tend to get in more fatal accidents in 
the past the numbers evened out by maturity.


Due to better health care more of these boys are living longer and thus 
in every age group since around 1960 there are more boys than girls. The 
fact that older males tend to marry younger women, including as second 
"trophy" wives, means even less women are available. (Also, it is 
theorized by some that one long-time purpose of war has been to weed out 
young males so there aren't enough to challenge the older male 
establishment. There have been far fewer such Western wars since World 
War II - except Korea, Vietnam - and thus more surviving males.)


So the US could have a couple million frustrated angry "surplus males" 
who can't find women friends or dates and have little prospect of marriage.


As we all know, these angry guys are all over the internet and Wikipedia...

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Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/5/2015 11:56 PM, Risker wrote:



On 5 October 2015 at 23:30, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:
what do you

think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
? or you think this is completely off ?

rupert


Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied
with a double standard - which it usually is.



Please.  Can we have some assumptions of good faith?  Rupert is trying
to reach out.

RIsker


Given the accusatory title of this thread (I see no quotation marks), I 
would like to think some women were a bit annoyed. However, no women 
besides myself and now you responded at all. (I just noticed now the 
thread was started by Rupert.)


Reaching out is great. As long as it is to all parties to a harassment 
situation (past/present/future) so it doesn't seem/look/feel like only 
those who are being harassed have an anger problem. I think that would 
counter the purpose of this list. Don't you?


CM

CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:
what do you

think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html
? or you think this is completely off ?

rupert


Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied 
with a double standard - which it usually is.



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Re: [Gendergap] New member

[Carol Moore dc]

Note, missed your first message so got wrong impression from what looked 
alike a comment "Eat me, I'm an azuki".


But online people often miss part of messages or misunderstand 
intentions...


Of course, you now feel a bit what it's like for someone to misinterpret 
what you write because of your sex.  Here we've had some past harassment 
from guys, so without - or even with - context we may look at that 
phrase skeptically.


On Wikipedia where a number of guys just are annoyed at anything said by 
females, they also will be quick to misinterpret or think badly of 
anything written by women.


On 10/3/2015 6:36 AM, Robert Williams wrote:

Hello,
My on-wiki username is Eat me, I'm an azuki (formerly Eat me, I'm a red
bean). My main wiki is enwiki, so you can contact me on my talk there
(as opposed to, say, my talkpage on the Finnish Wikinews). I am this
list's newest member.
I wish to share my views about the gender gap issue on Wikimedia
projects, but first I would like to know you all better.
I hope that this list will generate a lot of interesting discussions
that can help me gain some insight about this issue too.
Yours,
Eat me, I'm an azuki


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Re: [Gendergap] Meeting at the Wikiconference?

[Carol Moore dc]

Because of a vacation and wedding I'll only be able to make Sunday, 
assuming not too tired.  Plus the schedule pretty empty that day except 
for art and feminism. Thought there ARE more spaces for meetings then 
and maybe Sunday AM in one of the "Unconference sessions" or other open 
spaces would be an alternative or another meeting time...


http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule

On 10/4/2015 4:49 PM, Francesca Tripodi wrote:

Hello list members!

I am not sure if any of you are planning on attending the upcoming
conference in DC but it would be wonderful we we could organize a meet
up for those who might be coming. In taking a look at the schedule it
seems that lunch will be served on the first day. Perhaps we could plan
to meet and eat together during this time (either at the conference or
venturing to another location)?
http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Schedule

I am a graduate student working on how women and minorities are silenced
in participatory media spaces and I'd love the chance to speak with more
of you "off line" about your experiences.

Safe travels to those attending -
--
Francesca Tripodi, PhD Candidate (Sociology)
PhD Intern | Office of the Dean of Students
ftripodi.com 



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Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

On 10/4/2015 5:59 AM, Robert Williams wrote:

Well, what I'd like to say is that some of these arguments do make
sense. While men shouldn't get over-sensitive over perceived
"harassment" of them, neither should women just whine about
harassment.--Eat me, I'm an azuki


The problem is is the double standard where women's actions are more 
easily perceived as uncivil and/or harassment and their complaints about 
incivility/harassment are labeled whining or even harassment.


I got banned from Wikipedia for merely defending myself against constant 
harassment on the Gender Gap talk page and losing my temper a few times 
in Arbitration because of the massive harassment there by people I 
didn't even know.


The guy who got Ibanned from me for harassment got NO other warning or 
sanction about it during arbitration. The guy who started a harassing 
article about me only got a warning.


Only two of the several guys who worked together to harass and sabotage 
the talk page got warnings about it.


By the way, "eat me, I'm an azuki" doesn't sound like a friendly 
message. Must I really do an internet search of the meaning of the term 
azuki?


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Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

The relevance is that some wikipedia editors would like to shut us all 
up about harassment and civility and have made or will increase making 
these kinds of arguments...


Already made:
"I'm a serious contributor with 100 contributions a day and I shouldn't 
have to put up with petty nonsense about civility and harassment."


"These women are just oversensitive and have to "man up" and take it."

New variations could be made:

"I'm scared of making my 100 contributions a day cause I might get 
accused of harassment if there are any women on that article."


"These women and their false accusations are scaring away dozens of top 
contributors..."  etc.


"I hope the women editing here won't start screaming harassment and 
start scaring away big contributors who put so much important material 
in the encyclopedia."


"This woman complaining about harassment at ANI is just part of a pack 
of feminists world wide who are scaring men so badly they are hurting 
themselves and wikipedia..."


etc.

On 10/3/2015 11:19 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case wrote:

From having looked only at the headlines:


1) I really don't see the direct relevance of these to this list.

2) Consider the sources: a British newspaper so notorious for its
sympathies to the Conservative Party and its associated politics that
it's known informally as the Torygraph, and an American tabloid owned by
Rupert Murdoch and known for similar politics.

Daniel Case


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Re: [Gendergap] Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

[Carol Moore dc]

These articles do look highly exaggerated.  And, of course, for some 
guys saying they are afraid of being accused of harassment is just a new 
excuse for cutting women out of the loop.


However, there is a real problem of people being overly sensitized to 
the issue due to over-regulation. This is largely the result of getting 
the government involved in legislating behavior.


Instead of dealing with actual crimes (assault or persistent and 
dangerous stalking/threats) governments at all levels start defining 
obnoxious but not dangerous behavior in such a way that companies are 
afraid of big fines and big lawsuits. They therefore go overboard in 
dealing with issues that should be dealt with in a more informal 
manner. Consciousness raising and peer pressure are the way to deal with 
these issues. And women must have the courage to speak up against each 
incident. If we expect big brother/uncle sam/the daddy state to do it 
for us, we are inviting inevitable backlash.


That doesn't mean we should not organize to have individual 
organizations, be it for-profits or non-profits like WMF, to make it 
clear such behavior is unacceptable. But they also should encourage 
individual initiative and peer pressure - and discourage obvious 
attempts to shut women out because of alleged fear of harassment 
accusations.


On 10/3/2015 1:10 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:

the daily telegraph published an article with title "Well done,
feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work":
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/11904203/Well-done-feminism.-Now-man-are-afraid-to-help-women-at-work.html

and linked to one with title "why powerful men now hide behind open doors":
http://nypost.com/2015/05/26/why-powerful-men-now-hide-behind-open-doors/

what do you think about such pieces of text?

rupert

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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

Once again this is an area which needs research and numbers, starting 
with looking at all the complaints and even mentions of harassment at 
WP:ANI and WP:Arbitration for say the last 5 years.  If I wasn't busy 
catching up on my own projects, I'd help any of the researchers who have 
come by here or been mentioned.  Those who have more time and really 
care SHOULD contact these people and get them to organize just such a 
project. I know this is a good project because the couple times I 
brought it up the harassers went nuts...


Finding public complaints to admins obviously more difficult and finding 
private complaints nearly impossible. But ANI is a place to start.


To say that everyone who has spoken out against their own personal 
harassment or that against another has been indeff'd obviously is not 
correct.


To say that three people who engaged in Gender Gap Task Force 
discussions and objected strongly to the organized disruption of that 
group by others were indeff'd would be true.  Did they sometimes 
over-react to some of the nonsense, harassment and false accusations 
made by the organized group against the task force and themselves? Yes. 
 But those doing these things were NOT punished while those who 
objected were indeff'd.


That's enough for most people to think that anyone who isn't a skilled 
politician who never loses their temper - and who has enough support 
from friendly admins - WILL get indeff'd if they speak out too loud, too 
proud or too often...


Also, I shouldn't complain about what the harassment policy is without 
at least offering an alternative here... may when I catch upon my own 
thing and recover from burnout...


On 9/29/2015 11:57 AM, Nathan wrote:



On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf mailto:neot...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they
went down?  I really need to read something like that right now.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan mailto:nawr...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Hi Neotarf,

I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject
to harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from
most or all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a
functionary, admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is
likely that she has been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some
point during her Wikimedia tenure.

But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of
this type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted
in ways that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but
I don't think that is typical.


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:

anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the
problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is
something common on wikipedia, anger management is something
surprisingly ignored.


Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're 
discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those 
I got, and found:
*Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info 
so easily found on the internet

*Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me
*Only one a few days later saying "you will die"
*Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations
*265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite
*84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who 
started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending 
through the wikipedia system until he stopped)


I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't 
feel like uploading and searching...


On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be 
dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have 
JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected 
vs. non-verified users after that. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc&action=history&year=2011&month=8&tagfilter=


Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from 
guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed. 
Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...


So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and 
escalating steps you can take would help...





And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on 
it that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. 
Still have a copy...


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

I'll be happy to see a lot of the information and reasoning explained in 
the harassment document, including first encouraging people to contact 
an administrator. (Identifying administrators who are experienced in the 
topic would help too.)


Reasons one might not immediately contact police - unless the guy is 
basically outside your door- have been explained above. Like not having 
enough details to satisfy them or their not taking it very seriously 
anyway, unless they are outside the door.  And then some will always be 
fearful that such a complaint will lead to a search of their own 
computers for the evidence there was a crime and they don't want the 
govt snooping around in there (any more than it may already be without 
their knowing about it).


My main goal is better guidance on Wikipedia.

On 9/26/2015 4:38 PM, Risker wrote:

I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread have
publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as
death threats?

There was an annual plan posted for about three days of community
comment back in May/June.  Did anyone in this thread say "wait a minute,
we think you have your priorities wrong here"?

I'm a little stunned that several people including those with years of
activism under their belts would think that complaining on a mailing
list that is at most hosted by the WMF (and certainly not controlled by
it or monitored by it) would result in changes.  The English Wikipedia
community can't tell WMF staffers what to do: we're not their employers,
we don't set their objectives or their job descriptions, and so on.  The
lack of additional resources comes right from the top here.  If you want
it, you need to be telling the Board, you need to be telling the ED, and
you need to be telling the Senior Director of Community Engagement, Luis
Villa.  This list isn't gonna do it.  Posting on Wikipediocracy is the
equivalent of throwing coins in a well.  Focus your attention on the
people who have control of the money and persuade them this is something
more important than...I don't know, whether notifications are flagged
using one tag or two...

Risker/Anne


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a 
known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is 
known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send 
to various others many times before.


In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and 
evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. 
At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover 
such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another 
email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation 
was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)


As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY 
real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only 
recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going 
to the Foundation to sort it out.


That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that 
evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and 
women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.



I wrote:

On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:

Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
harassment.

Risker/Anne

On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf mailto:neot...@gmail.com>> wrote:

@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
mean to link to something else?

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
article mentioned that option.

I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015
that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link
to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122

Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain
some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle
with the foundation for even minor issues...

There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal
action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe
space, NOT!!*

Thanks...


CM

*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space
from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd
degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger
warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and
protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct
enough... but don't get me started...

A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities
and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can
understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be
exposed to the most extreme varieties.  It also gives the most
oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands
for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to
mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")

Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups
any more.  Especially now that I am finally free of having to be
a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment
mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without
worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)

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[Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got 
directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to 
remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I 
decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.


I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the 
harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay 
that specifically advises this!


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122

Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some 
well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the 
foundation for even minor issues...


There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but 
zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe space, NOT!!*


Thanks...


CM

*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from 
actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of 
hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any 
opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions 
that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...


A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and 
hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear 
of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme 
varieties.  It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label 
minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You 
extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the 
Harassment page!!!")


Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. 
 Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on 
Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my 
writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming 
me all over Wikipedia ;-)


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[Gendergap] "Harvard students edit Wikipedia in effort to ‘dismantle the patriarchy’ "

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24150/

"Meanwhile, these college feminist Wikipedia attacks have become 
something of a regular thing: (Conservative woman author lists "examples")"


We'll see if they post my reply... ;-)

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Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: [Publicpolicy] Introducing the public policy site

[Carol Moore dc]

Of course, the problem is that there are so many paid writer/activists, 
often sock puppets, who work daily to promote certain agendas and 
tarnish the reputations of those who agree with those agendas.


I found this writing about the Israel-Palestine conflict, some war/peace 
issues and economic issue, as well as libertarian issues. Many worked 
together in little cliques to harass and bully those they disagreed 
with. Even some of the most obvious sockpuppets were allowed to keep 
working because they knew how to butter up enough admins. I managed to 
survive them for many years, til they joined up with the anti-Gender Gap 
Task Force crowd. But many men - and of course women who get even more 
abuse - quickly give up.


I hope this project can attract lots of people, but until the paid and 
secret socks issue is dealt with, many of those who seek to promote 
neutral info, as opposed to partisan propaganda, will be driven off.


CM

On 9/2/2015 3:17 PM, Sydney Poore wrote:

This is significant since good public policy work can make easier for
all women around the world to have access to Wikipedia to read and edit,
to have less concerns about censorship, and to protect the privacy of
women who want to edit on controversial topics.

Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
Wikipedian in Residence
at Cochrane Collaboration

-- Forwarded message --
From: *Stephen LaPorte* mailto:slapo...@wikimedia.org>>
Date: Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 1:56 PM
Subject: [Publicpolicy] Introducing the public policy site
To: publicpol...@lists.wikimedia.org



Hi all,

We wanted to let you know about a new site that we launched to support
your work on public policy and communicate how public policy affects the
Wikimedia projects to advocacy groups (https://policy.wikimedia.org).
The site includes position statements on access, copyright, censorship,
intermediary liability, and privacy. We hope that it will make it easier
for advocacy groups to collaborate with the Wikimedia community on
issues within these areas.

You can read more about the site in this blog post:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/09/02/new-wikimedia-public-policy-site/

Thanks,
Yana & Stephen

--
Stephen LaPorte
Legal Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation

/NOTICE: This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal and
ethical reasons, I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer
for, community members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal
capacity. For more on what this means, please see our legal disclaimer
./

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[Gendergap] Wikiconference...Re: Signpost article on "English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics..." etc...

[Carol Moore dc]

Glad to see a lot more submissions since they started ADVERTISING it on 
top of Wikipedia pages! Two for women so far...


We had a discussion of doing one on legal options of dealing with 
harassment at last local Wikimedia salon but for various reasons not 
coming together. Though if someone wanted to add that topic to an 
existing workshop, some relevant names of speakers were discussed.


My favorite idea was to have a famous keynote speaker who is known as an 
expert in online harassment, including especially of women. Someone who 
would be a real wake up call to the the anti-GTTF gang...


But will suggest to organizers privately :-)

On 8/21/2015 12:17 AM, J Hayes wrote:

clearly he needs an invite to
wikiconference USA

maybe a paper presentation
http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/Category:Submissions/2015

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-08-19/Op-ed

Op-ed
WP:THREATENING2MEN: The English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics
and the hegemony of the asshole consensus
By Bryce Peake

Check it out...


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[Gendergap] Signpost article on "English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics..." etc...

[Carol Moore dc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-08-19/Op-ed

Op-ed
WP:THREATENING2MEN: The English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics and 
the hegemony of the asshole consensus

By Bryce Peake

Check it out...



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Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: Announcing the shutdown of the Ada Initiative

[Carol Moore dc]

 Yes, they'll be up. Yeah!


On 4 August 2015 at 10:29, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

They did great work.  Assumedly more info on how long the website
will be up and how to download materials will be forthcoming.




 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Announcing the shutdown of the Ada Initiative
Date:   Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:36:40 -0700
From:   Mary Gardiner 
To: Carol Moore dc 
CC: The Ada Initiative 



Hi Carol,

Thanks for the compliment! We're glad our work has been useful to so
many people.

Our website will be available indefinitely: we are currently looking
into long term hosting options and are budgeting to keep it up for 10+
years.

-Mary

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

Great work!

More info on how long your website will be up and how to download
materials would be great.

Thanks




--
Mary Gardiner
Co-founder
Ada Initiative <http://adainitiative.org/>



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[Gendergap] Fwd: Announcing the shutdown of the Ada Initiative

[Carol Moore dc]

They did great work.  Assumedly more info on how long the website will 
be up and how to download materials will be forthcoming.



 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Announcing the shutdown of the Ada Initiative
Date:   Tue, 04 Aug 2015 08:48:23 -0400 (EDT)
From:   The Ada Initiative 

It is with mixed feelings that we announce that the Ada Initiative will
be shutting down in approximately mid-October. We are proud of what we
accomplished with the support of many thousands of volunteers, sponsors,
and donors, and we expect all of our programs to continue on in some
form without the Ada Initiative. Thank you for your incredible work and
support!


What we accomplished

80 women cheering and wearing many different colors, CC BY-SA Jenna
Saint Martin Photo

AdaCamp Portland attendees in 2014
CC BY-SA Jenna Saint Martin Photo

When the Ada Initiative was founded in 2011, the environment for women
in open technology and culture was extremely hostile. Conference
anti-harassment policies were rare outside of certain areas in fandom,
and viewed as extremist attempts to muzzle free speech. Pornography in
slides was a regular feature at many conferences in these areas, as were
physical and sexual assault. Most open tech/culture communities didn't
have an understanding of basic feminist concepts like consent, tone
policing, and intersectional oppression.


  Anti-harassment policy and code of conduct work

With the support of hundreds of volunteers, the Ada Initiative led the
drive
 
to

make strong, specific, and enforced anti-harassment policies a standard
and expected part of any moderately well-run conference. Today,
/thousands/ of conferences
 
have

these policies, including many in the area of free and open source
software, fandom, Wikimedia projects, computer technology, library
technology, science writing, entomology, and many other areas we never
expected to influence. This work is now completely community-driven;
people everywhere are developing and improving codes of conducts for
online communities.


  AdaCamp unconferences

We ran our first AdaCamp unconference
 
in

2012 in Melbourne, and ran six more AdaCamps in the following years, in
Washington D.C., San Francisco, Portland, Berlin, Bangalore, and
Montreal. Over 500 women had an experience many of them described as
"life-changing." AdaCamp awakened their feminist identity, helped them
improve their careers, and connected them with a community of support.
Many women realized for the first time that what they were going through
was not unique to themselves, that their negative experiences were the
result of systemic sexism, and that they could make changes in their
lives with the help of women they met through AdaCamp. We created the
AdaCamp Toolkit
 
so

that other people could run events more like AdaCamp. Among many other
things, it includes step-by-step guides on how to provide food that
matches attendees' food restrictions
, 


create access lanes to increase accessibility

[Gendergap] Inspiring pre-workshop video?

[Carol Moore dc]

Which really is about the limitations that society (patriarchy) tries to 
impose on women and girls saying NO!  Good one to play at beginning of 
(or encourage people to watch before) workshops or whatever...


The best that commercial advertising can be... (even better than buy the 
world a coke :-)


https://youtu.be/VhB3l1gCz2E

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[Gendergap] Listing all projects on gender gap page

[Carol Moore dc]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Participate

I was starting to get confused about the multiplicity of links lately, 
some of which are a bit confusing.


I don't have the energy to figure it all out and update 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Participate at the moment.


Descriptions of the differences are necessary.  Including gender gap 
subprojects of larger projects like Wikimania, 2015 USA conference, etc.


Starting new projects on Wikimedia because old ones don't have enough 
energy can be useful; but sometimes you just have to beef up or expand 
or whatever the old one. (Which is a general statement cause right now 
there are so many.


Speaking of 2015 USA 
conferencehttp://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/2015/Organizing_Team  has a 
real good group of people and hopefully we can get some good workshops 
in there.


I might even be pursuaded to show up since it's in DC.  The whole 
Wikipedia experience is just one more sexist/ageist thing that made me 
antisocial in my old age, I'm afraid. booo h   ;-)



CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Research: men who harass women online

[Carol Moore dc]

I saw the "loser" spin on some TV report as well. I've definitely found 
the guys who gave me the most grief were psychologically disturbed. (Of 
course I consider patriarchal dominance behavior the main psychological 
disturbance of the human race.)


This often is combined with some grievance where they feet oppressed, be 
it disability-wise, sexuality-wise (or from sexual frustration at 
rejection from women), ethnic/religious-wise or whatever. In economics 
areas it's often related to their psychologically driven economic views, 
i.e., they need capitalism or state capitalism (so they can get rich and 
afford good women) or need to control/destroy capitalism (so that they 
can make sure rich guys don't get all the good women).


Their beliefs they are oppressed or assailed by the world make them feel 
they have a right to "fight back" and be abusive.  Of course, they take 
it out on women who they see as of lower status and generally safer to 
abuse.


And, of course, they see women and others who really ARE getting clear 
and obvious grief/harassment *and* complaining about it as being the 
disrupters!


If I ever get around to doing an analysis of sexism on Wikipedia, I may 
analyze evidence of the above attitudes and behaviors by specific 
editors (and their sockpuppets) who have given me particular grief over 
7 odd years. It's important to me to identify and publicize the problems 
and shame the abusers so that these patterns can be more easily 
identified and dealt with. Far more important than getting back into the 
fray, especially before the issues adequately dealt with.  I know I'd be 
constantly targeted by these types of losers. Of course I MIGHT not be 
targeted if I only edited in non-male dominated areas and immediately 
acquiesced to the demands of any male editors. But sc**w that...


Anyway, I'm glad to see 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWomen%27s_User_Group happening and 
hope someone can work a description of the study and a generalized essay 
or whatever out of it. Hey, I guess I could do that if no one beats me 
to it! :-)


CM
http://carolmoore.net/wikipedia

On 7/22/2015 10:02 PM, Neotarf wrote:

"For their latest study, published in the journal PLOS One last week,
[Michael Kasumovic and Jeffrey Kuznekoff, researchers at the University
of New South Wales and Miami University, respectively] watched how men
treated women during 163 plays of the video game Halo 3.

"As they watched the games play out and tracked the comments that
players made to each other, the researchers observed that — no matter
their skill level, or how the game went — men tended to be pretty
cordial to each other. Male players who were good at the game also
tended to pay compliments to other male and female players.

"Some male players, however — the ones who were less-skilled at the
game, and performing worse relative their peers — made frequent, nasty
comments to the female gamers. In other words, sexist dudes are
/literally/ losers."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/07/20/men-who-harass-women-online-are-quite-literally-losers-new-study-finds/




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Re: [Gendergap] Lightbreather arbitration case

[Carol Moore dc]

I'm not sure what "some of the seemingly most female-unfriendly parts of 
the Internet" might be so Ellie would have to be more specific.


But in my experience writing in a variety of political and economic and 
history-related articles on Wikipedia, it's all about "male intellectual 
territory" where SOME (not all) guys just don't want women intruding or 
challenging them.  (And of course anything related to sex/gender that 
SOME guys don't like will raise hackles.)


In the real world, women do not publish as many articles, books, etc. on 
these "serious" topics; teach as many courses or have professorships on 
these "serious" topics; etc. so their daring to act "as 
knowledgable/smart/good as a guy" on Wikipedia is going to rankle SOME 
guys.


I'm sure this is as bad or worse on in lots of other Wikipedia topic 
areas like science, popular culture, etc. where male voices dominate and 
SOME guys want to keep it that way.


CM

On 7/16/2015 5:25 PM, Sarah (SV) wrote:

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Ellie Kesselman
mailto:myindigol...@gmail.com>> wrote:


So then, WHY is Wikipedia more anti-female than some of the
seemingly most female-unfriendly parts of the Internet?  I don't
know, and it frightens me. I don't want to be subject to what
Lightbreather experienced. It just isn't worth the headache and
potentially, worse than that.

~Ellie (FeralOink)

​
Ellie, this is the question that puzzles everyone. Andreas (Jayen466)
summed up

the problem well yesterday, when he described the lack of empathy for
women's perspectives, an inability to identify with women. There is one
woman on the arbitration committee and several supportive men, but
they're in the minority.

None of that answers your question, though, namely why it's worse on
Wikipedia than on other websites.

Sarah


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Re: [Gendergap] Help us fill the Ally Skills Workshop at Wikimania!

[Carol Moore dc]

Another good option. People who want to speak out should not be silenced 
by those who say they don't want to be taped. (And heavens forbid it be 
the guys who want to harass us or their female enablers.)


On 7/14/2015 10:02 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:

Hi Carole,

But if you ask people to lurk out of camera shot and not ask questions
unless they are willing to have them taped aren't you making them second
class participants at that event?

Better in my view to create an edited taped version, and if someone
isn't prepared to be in the final cut try to resolve their objections.
It may be they are OK if a narrator says their words and their face is
pixellated, or perhaps they need their bit replaced by a shot of someone
reacting to their words and the narrator saying "a participant gave a
personal example of harassment"



On 14 July 2015 at 13:40, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

I definitely understand Risker's point, but despite my jokes about
metaphorical "gang bang at Wikipedia", this really isn't a
discussion of personal violence and assault, but of organized
political intimidation.  And we should feel free to speak out about
that and make sure lots of people hear us.  Otherwise we are just
victimizing ourselves by embracing our oppression instead of
fighting it.

Having attended some such events at Wikimania 2012, and seen the
issues discussed at least briefly in one or more taped
presentations, off hand I don't remember any guys being really
obnoxious. (I do remember the story of the NYC event where guys WERE
being obnoxious, however.) Hopefully, they are NOT becoming more
organized like the guys who disrupted the Gender Gap Task Force.

Probably the best thing is to discuss whether to tap and let
participants decide and if only a few object they can stay out of
camera range and ask any comments they make not be taped.  That is
done at a lot of different events.

On 7/13/2015 10:46 PM, Risker wrote:



On 13 July 2015 at 21:37, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>
<mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net
<mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>>> wrote:

 On 7/13/2015 3:50 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:

 Hi folks,

 Several people have asked whether the Ally Skills
Workshop will
 be an
 unpleasant experience for women attending - specifically,
 whether men
 will dominate the conversation, dismiss what women say,
etc. We
 spend
 the first 20 minutes of the workshop setting up
discussion rules so
 that this doesn't happen - in fact, the workshop is
real-world
 practice in how to have a discussion in ways that give
women an
 equal
 chance to be respectfully heard.


 Make sure you tape it and they all know it will be going up
online?





I hope not, or it will really, really change the willingness of
participants to share their experiences and stories.  In some
cases it
would have the effect of revictimizing the victims.

I can sympathize with your wish to see how it goes, Carol - I'll
be in a
required session a few doors down the hall while this takes place,
although I'd really like to participate.  But from the bigger
picture, I
think it's better that the session not be publicly accessible.

Risker/Anne


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Re: [Gendergap] Lightbreather arbitration case

[Carol Moore dc]

On 7/14/2015 8:30 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:

Don't you think it's bizarre that ArbCom is punishing Lightbreather for
discussing the identity of the guy who posted porn images, claiming they
depicted Lightbreather? He posted those images off-wiki, and she
discussed it off-wiki.

**I guess that's an object lesson in why we have to read these 
Arbitrations more carefully.  I get the impression some of the charges 
are NOT bogus; the question is, how many guys would get away with all 
the same withOUT being warned or sanctioned.  Lots, in my experience. 
But a few incidents definitely looked like mentoring warranted.


Also following twitter I see Mark Bernstein writes: "New Wikipedia 
Arbcom proposed decision officially recommends harassed women "lower 
their profile" until harassment stops."


Of course I did that by largely stopping editing articles through much 
of 2014 (since I was being followed and harassed and admins just poo 
poo'd my complaints).  But critics screamed:"Carol doesn't contribute 
anything so she doesn't have the same rights to opine on anything as 
those of us who contribute a lot and thus have a right to insult people 
all we want." And ArbCom fell for that one...




In my opinion, she had every moral right to.

ArbCom's fixation on "outing" reminds me of all the Redditors who wailed
when someone put a name to "Violentacrez".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks8xuYRPnWM

Seriously, does anyone think ArbCom's gallant protection of the dude,
while site-banning the woman at whose expense he was having his fun on
those porn sites, will help women's participation?


On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

The good news is this time they actually have a long list of
problematic issues and are not just getting rid of editors for
trumped up ones like that did with Neotarf and I, i.e., just listing
of 5 or 6 examples of being snotty to (powerful and connected)
editors who were obnoxiously harassing either ourselves or the GGTF
group...


On 7/13/2015 10:50 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:

The proposed decision in the Lightbreather case was posted
yesterday.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Proposed_decision

It comments extensively on harassment.

The proposed decision has already been controversially discussed on
Twitter:

https://twitter.com/eastgate/status/620337415669026816

A.


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Re: [Gendergap] Help us fill the Ally Skills Workshop at Wikimania!

[Carol Moore dc]

I definitely understand Risker's point, but despite my jokes about 
metaphorical "gang bang at Wikipedia", this really isn't a discussion of 
personal violence and assault, but of organized political intimidation. 
 And we should feel free to speak out about that and make sure lots of 
people hear us.  Otherwise we are just victimizing ourselves by 
embracing our oppression instead of fighting it.


Having attended some such events at Wikimania 2012, and seen the issues 
discussed at least briefly in one or more taped presentations, off hand 
I don't remember any guys being really obnoxious. (I do remember the 
story of the NYC event where guys WERE being obnoxious, however.) 
Hopefully, they are NOT becoming more organized like the guys who 
disrupted the Gender Gap Task Force.


Probably the best thing is to discuss whether to tap and let 
participants decide and if only a few object they can stay out of camera 
range and ask any comments they make not be taped.  That is done at a 
lot of different events.


On 7/13/2015 10:46 PM, Risker wrote:



On 13 July 2015 at 21:37, Carol Moore dc mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:

On 7/13/2015 3:50 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:

Hi folks,

Several people have asked whether the Ally Skills Workshop will
be an
unpleasant experience for women attending - specifically,
whether men
will dominate the conversation, dismiss what women say, etc. We
spend
the first 20 minutes of the workshop setting up discussion rules so
that this doesn't happen - in fact, the workshop is real-world
practice in how to have a discussion in ways that give women an
equal
chance to be respectfully heard.


Make sure you tape it and they all know it will be going up online?





I hope not, or it will really, really change the willingness of
participants to share their experiences and stories.  In some cases it
would have the effect of revictimizing the victims.

I can sympathize with your wish to see how it goes, Carol - I'll be in a
required session a few doors down the hall while this takes place,
although I'd really like to participate.  But from the bigger picture, I
think it's better that the session not be publicly accessible.

Risker/Anne


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Re: [Gendergap] Help us fill the Ally Skills Workshop at Wikimania!

[Carol Moore dc]

On 7/13/2015 3:50 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:

Hi folks,

Several people have asked whether the Ally Skills Workshop will be an
unpleasant experience for women attending - specifically, whether men
will dominate the conversation, dismiss what women say, etc. We spend
the first 20 minutes of the workshop setting up discussion rules so
that this doesn't happen - in fact, the workshop is real-world
practice in how to have a discussion in ways that give women an equal
chance to be respectfully heard.


Make sure you tape it and they all know it will be going up online?

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Re: [Gendergap] Lightbreather arbitration case

[Carol Moore dc]

The good news is this time they actually have a long list of problematic 
issues and are not just getting rid of editors for trumped up ones like 
that did with Neotarf and I, i.e., just listing of 5 or 6 examples of 
being snotty to (powerful and connected) editors who were obnoxiously 
harassing either ourselves or the GGTF group...


On 7/13/2015 10:50 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:

The proposed decision in the Lightbreather case was posted yesterday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Proposed_decision

It comments extensively on harassment.

The proposed decision has already been controversially discussed on
Twitter:

https://twitter.com/eastgate/status/620337415669026816

A.


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Re: [Gendergap] Harassment management proposals in the 2015 Inspire Campaign - pinging Siko and Luis

[Carol Moore dc]

On 7/2/2015 4:37 PM, Neotarf wrote:


Samuel Klein I think has a point that "harassment" and "sexual
harassment" are not necessarily the same, the second being more of a
civil rights issue.


Harassment and sexual harassment can be done by men to women or women to 
men.


However, harassment BECAUSE one is a woman is a separate category which 
should be more clearly identified as SEXIST harassment.


Some guys just don't want a woman editor changing/reverting/challenging 
their edits - or just doing a better editing job on an article of 
interest to a particular guy - or just speaking out in general.


While a few women may go after editors JUST because they are men 
(especially if they do obviously sexist editing!), women in general 
don't harass others, and especially men, as much because most of us are 
indoctrinated into being "nice" and "fair" and even deferential.


Even as a bad tempered radical feminist, I went around for years being 
so proud of myself for NOT losing my sometimes volatile temper at all 
the sexism on Wikipedia and keeping my commentary relatively civil.


I wish I'd lost my temper much more and much earlier so I would have 
gotten kicked off sooner - and for substantive reasons of being uncivil, 
as opposed to the trumped up ones for which I was kicked off in December 
2014.  Then I wouldn't have wasted so much time being harassed by sexist 
editors who just didn't want me editing at all!


CM

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[Gendergap] NY Times: Can Wikipedia Survive?

[Carol Moore dc]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/opinion/can-wikipedia-survive.html?_r=0

Gender gap is one of many issues mentioned. Thought not the most 
divisive one.


Luckily I don't feel like going through my list of various solutions, 
much of which have to do with giving up with tyranny of 
structurelessness which has allowed the nastiest good old boys to drive 
off so many women and other decent editors over the years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness

CM








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Re: [Gendergap] Slate on Wikipedia and the gendergap

[Carol Moore dc]

On 6/22/2015 11:46 AM, Marie Earley wrote:
I'm not keen on the phrase "female-related content", I posted this 
transcript of an exchange I had with an editor 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-April/005670.html 
in April.


When I dared to suggest that women could be interested in topics other 
than the ones he suggested - "fashion, cookery, domestic affairs and 
childrearing" - he responded with this:
>"...the purpose of the task force was to increase the participation 
of women of all sorts, not just radical feminists like you apparently 
are."

and later:
>"... your comments seem to wilfully denigate the possibility that 
women could be interested in topics of "traditional" interest to women."


First, remember the Slate article was published back in December right 
after I and another editor of unknowledged sex got kicked off for minor 
snippiness  and the guys who were insulting and harassing us just got 
minor wrist slaps...


Marie's comments are spot on.  If I only had edited on such womanly 
topics and not dared mostly to edit in male dominated areas like 
politics, economics, war/peace, etc. I wouldn't not have so many males 
pissed off at me and stalking and harassing me when I later started to 
edit about and speak out on gender gap issues.


Even though Lightbreather and I may have very different views on some 
economic/political/gender issues, we both were targeted by various 
individuals because we dared to be women asserting our views in areas 
where woman's input is considered a nuisance at best and a Wikicrime at 
worst.


And I'm glad the Arbitration Committee continues to keep editors' 
comments inside the editor's own section during Lightbreathers current 
"trial", which has greatly reduced the extreme harassment I was 
subjected to on the Arbitration talk pages. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Proposed_decision


I am glad that after I knew I definitely was getting kicked off I wrote 
the "manchester gangbangers" comment on the Arbitration talk page in 
response to a longtime harasser who insulted me for the third or fourth 
time on that page.  And that's even though it is now portrayed as 
typical of things I wrote, which it was not.


I'm still trying to make time to fill in the blanks here: 
http://carolmoore.net/wikipedia/  Meanwhile I'm glad others are keeping 
up their good work.


CM

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[Gendergap] Some women get respect at Wikipedia....

[Carol Moore dc]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/06/01/wikipedia-editors-honor-caitlyn-jenner-identity/kMBuLrQJYZUZefLBVeVd7H/story.html 

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Re: [Gendergap] Motivating women to run for board seats

[Carol Moore dc]

On 6/6/2015 3:15 PM, Pine W wrote:


We had no new female candidates for board seats in the WMF election. 
For affiliates, I know of at least two affiliates that also have male 
board members saying that they/we would like to have more gender 
diversity on our boards but women aren't generally volunteering to 
run. What could be done to encourage more women to run for affiliate 
and WMF board seats?


Thanks,
Pine


Does the job description mention whether there's pay or at least free 
travel and hotel expenses for meetings?


$ is often a big factor for women.

CM

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Re: [Gendergap] What would it take to Close the Gender Gap?

[Carol Moore dc]

"Seeing like a state" refers to the idea that scientifically created 
govt programs can fix things. However, most a created by and for special 
interest and thus their inability to foresee the inevitable negative 
consequences or adjust quickly to them.


However, nonprofit and profit businesses usually have more flexibility, 
at least til they become too big.  So trying to come up with new 
programs like Samuel proposes below is more feasible. I've suggested 
similar things in the past, but others doubted Wikimedia would take it 
on and otherwise it would take quite a bit of financial and 
organizational expertise.


Of course mere numbers will not solve the problem. Even having to 25 or 
35% women would not necessarily increase the quality of the product if 
the women ended up having to spend too much time quarreling with male 
editors who resent their editing, should it disagree with theirs, or 
just because such assertive female activity annoys them.  Of course, 
that's still a major reason women don't last long at Wikipedia anyway.




On 6/1/2015 1:00 PM, Samuel Klein wrote:
Thanks Jason.  I enjoyed reading this, though the conclusions remind 
me of _Seeing Like a State_.   Not all edits, editors, and 
subcommunities are equal.  Trying to shift about contributors en masse 
in a way that is convenient for large organizations (or for those of 
us who like crunching large datasets :)   can be a total failure in 
practice.


Let's set up a new space where we can experiment with fast influxes of 
newbies.  The current large projects are not suited for this.


If we create a new space (workspace, namespace, knowledgespace) for 
people to develop a different sort of knowledge, or in a different 
way, that would be amenable to participation by tens of thousands of 
new users and would not directly interfere with existing workflows: 
 then a new founder effect, tone, and creator network could develop in 
tandem with existing communities.  In that scenario, we could have a 
surge of new editors, and could perhaps help them find one another and 
form groups and figure things out as they go. And these could be 
recruited specifically from communities that currently are unwelcome 
or feel underrepresented.


If we want to prevent some groups from 'taking charge' and blocking or 
pushing out groups they don't agree with, this new workspace might 
benefit from supporting multiple drafts of the same idea, or multiple 
separate groups that can all have their own policies.  The current 
framework on the larger wikis of One Complete System, having lots of 
policy to read before getting involved, and veterans chastising 
newbies for getting things wrong, is not amenable to any rapid influx.


SJ

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Siko Bouterse 
mailto:sboute...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:


Super interesting, thanks for sharing Jason.

"Can Wikipedia increase the number of new female editors four-fold
and increase new editor retention four-fold every month for three
years?"

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Joseph Reagle
mailto:joseph.2...@reagle.org>> wrote:

Interesting!




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Re: [Gendergap] Retired

[Carol Moore dc]

Once I saw that only 600 odd editors elected Arbcom I saw how easy it 
was for cliques and POV pushers supporting specific Arbs to take it over 
and use it for their own purposes, including continuing male supremacy 
on Wikipedia... They should have at least a floor of 1000 editors before 
the election is finalized. That might help a little.


On 5/27/2015 12:43 AM, Risker wrote:
There is a tendency to ascribe a great deal of power to the 
Arbitration Committee of English Wikipedia - and of the various 
arbitration committees, it is the one with the greatest scope and 
perceived power.  In fact, Arbcom has almost no ability to manage the 
world outside of the pages of the Wikipedia project, and even within 
the project it can only handle minuscule portions of the activities.  
It has no power at all to control other websites, can only take action 
against Wikipedians acting outside of the project if there is an 
extremely clear and direct link between the Wikipedia persona and the 
persona outside of WP, and is very wary of taking action in the 
absence of direct links because many if not most arbitrators and 
functionaries over the last 8-10 years have been the subject of 
joe-jobs themselves.  I've had to have three separate LinkedIn 
accounts purporting to be me taken down over the last 8 years, for 
example; others have had their personal images and names attached to 
accounts on porn sites, paid editing sites, and a fair number of other 
unsavory sites - so as a group we can honestly say "there's plenty of 
reason to doubt" in a lot of cases.


Arbcom is not all-powerful.  Even the full force of the WMF can only 
be turned on to the most extreme cases of harassment; there simply 
aren't the human resources to address comparatively run-of-the-mill 
harassment, especially when it's occurring outside the walls of their 
projects.  Not even huge internet-based companies like Facebook, 
Twitter, or Yahoo have the personnel or the ability to prevent or 
address harassment on unrelated sites, and they have hundreds of times 
more "community managers" than the WMF has.


To compare to a non-internet situation:  How many police officers 
would be needed to effectively stop catcalls being directed to women 
walking down the street?  Or preventing bullies from picking on the 
skinny kid?


We know the answer - there aren't enough cops in the world to stop 
these things even in one medium-sized city.  What needs to change is 
society's attitude toward these activities - and because the internet 
isn't a single society, the task is extremely difficult.  The WMF 
isn't going to be able to solve it, Arbcom doesn't have a hope of 
solving it, and as long as the same privacy laws that prevent people 
from digging into deeply private information about us also protect 
people whose behaviour is very much unappreciated, I'm not sure the 
legal systems of most democratic countries will be able to solve it.


Risker/Anne

On 27 May 2015 at 00:21, Neotarf <mailto:neot...@gmail.com>> wrote:


This might also be a good time to mention the conversation about
harassment on the recent Inspire grant project.  Fourteen of the
proposals were concerned with managing harassment.  I don't
believe I ever saw anyone from the Foundation comment on this.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_harassment_reporting

Instead we now have the English Wikipedia's Arbcom taking on their
third or fourth sexual harassment within the year, without having
even established a working definition of what it is.

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Neotarf mailto:neot...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Totally understandable.  I too have also been sexually
harassed and doxxed, on at least two other sites besides WP. 
The ArbCom and the WMF are well aware of it, and have been

unwilling to lift a finger against it.

There is a book about cyber harassment making the rounds:
"Hate Crimes in Cyberspace" by Danielle Keats Citron ISBN
978-0-674-36829-3 describing both the horrible price that
individuals pay and the legal underpinnings of the problem.
It's a pity WP is not in the vanguard of this movement in the
same way it has pioneered in other areas.  Instead, those who
report harassment will find themselves treated worse than the
harassers.

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Carol Moore dc
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>>
wrote:

On 5/26/2015 8:35 PM, LB wrote:

Due to off-wiki harassment, I have retired. Thank you
to those of you who have been friendly with me over
the past year.

Lightbreather


Plus all that on-wiki harassment!

I did notice something interesting

Re: [Gendergap] Retired

[Carol Moore dc]

On 5/26/2015 8:35 PM, LB wrote:
Due to off-wiki harassment, I have retired. Thank you to those of you 
who have been friendly with me over the past year.


Lightbreather



Plus all that on-wiki harassment!

I did notice something interesting and actually positive in 
Lightbreather's arbitration, compared to GGTF and others I've seen.


Which is that now editors only can comment on Arbitration talk pages in 
their own sections.  This lessens opportunities for drive-by harassing 
taunts against, and replies against, various editors who harassers are 
trying to get kicked off Wikipedia.  They have to take responsibility in 
their own sections. Perhaps my screaming about "institutionalized 
harassment at Arbcom" had at least this minor effect...  I hope they 
keep it for all future arbitrations...


Announcement on this page, after which went into effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Evidence#Sectioned_discussion_is_now_in_effect_on_this_page

Also in effect here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Workshop 



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[Gendergap] Wikipedia used to counter sexism - for a change...

[Carol Moore dc]

At last, a story about Wikipedia being used against sexism, as opposed 
to BEING sexist!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3089709/Sexist-tech-company-faces-backlash-MEN-refusing-apologize-using-scantily-clad-lingerie-models-ads.html

"When Twitter user Damian Hickey jumped in by sharing a link to 
Wikipedia's passage on sexism, the company read it and agreed - but 
still didn't apologize." (plus screenshots)


CM
http://carolmoore.net/wikipedia

(Catching up on 8 years of STUFF and may actually beef up that page in 
the next few months!)
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[Gendergap] WMF Board elections

[Carol Moore dc]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:SecurePoll/vote/339?setlang=en&uselang=en&abtestbanner=WMRed

Are happening now. I see one candidate who needs a good kick in the 
pants opposition on the gender gap issue and a couple others who may be 
using code words in that regard. (But what do I know?)  Lots of "global 
south" types running too, so at least diversity is represented on that 
front.


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Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees (Carol Moore dc)

[Carol Moore dc]

Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than 
saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The 
DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as 
promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced 
with a satirical “Wiki Dudes” poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., 
Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."


The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, 
women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm 
an optimist! :-)


On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote:
1. Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to 
what (I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at 
thehttp://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.


2. Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
> Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their posters on campus... 
http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/article_fd100a5c-e13c-11e4-9d73-d3ef3275ba46.html


Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but 
made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own.  The 
NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX 
violation, yet.


I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to 
react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that 
there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that 
most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, 
history and science have been men, who have received plenty of 
attention and biographical scholarship already!


The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of 
creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki 
women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere 
impulse trolling.  If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I 
would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge 
that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable 
women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is 
appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly 
believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on 
Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a 
troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.


I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I 
condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I 
suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize 
themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women 
edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.


~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink


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Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees

[Carol Moore dc]

Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their 
posters

on campus...
http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/article_fd100a5c-e13c-11e4-9d73-d3ef3275ba46.html

On 5/2/2015 11:43 PM, Carol Moore dc wrote:

There was one very silly comment at the blog entry
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/

So I couldn't help commenting on what I see as the big problem...

Having lots more edit-a-thons, etc. to get women to try Wikipedia is 
great. But we can’t keep just ignoring the biggest problem – which is 
guys, individually and too often in small groups, who don’t like or 
think important information about women or which might be somewhat 
more interesting to women than men. And they just don’t like women 
coming into their “turf”, be it by adding information, opining on talk 
pages or – Heavens forbid! – reverting them. In other words – sexism. 
They often ignore a woman’s positive contributions but are quick to 
criticize harshly anything they disagree with. Other guys may have 
qualms about or even strongly dislike this kind of behavior, but most 
of them will not repeatedly criticize it or fight to stop it. This 
kind of sexism is rife among editors, administrators and arbitrators. 
And probably too many Wikimedia Foundation employees. Ending sexism 
has to be more action oriented from the top down if Wikipedia is going 
to make it easier for women to edit, or to edit while they admit they 
are female.






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Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees

[Carol Moore dc]

There was one very silly comment at the blog entry
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/

So I couldn't help commenting on what I see as the big problem...

Having lots more edit-a-thons, etc. to get women to try Wikipedia is 
great. But we can’t keep just ignoring the biggest problem – which is 
guys, individually and too often in small groups, who don’t like or 
think important information about women or which might be somewhat more 
interesting to women than men. And they just don’t like women coming 
into their “turf”, be it by adding information, opining on talk pages or 
– Heavens forbid! – reverting them. In other words – sexism. They often 
ignore a woman’s positive contributions but are quick to criticize 
harshly anything they disagree with. Other guys may have qualms about or 
even strongly dislike this kind of behavior, but most of them will not 
repeatedly criticize it or fight to stop it. This kind of sexism is rife 
among editors, administrators and arbitrators. And probably too many 
Wikimedia Foundation employees. Ending sexism has to be more action 
oriented from the top down if Wikipedia is going to make it easier for 
women to edit, or to edit while they admit they are female.






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[Gendergap] "Tomboy" on Wikipedia

[Carol Moore dc]

Found this blog item of interest. Perhaps the article needs some RS 
objections to the use of the term.


http://www.adviceformydaughter.com/2015/04/18/girls-are-not-tomboys-they-are-girls/
Starts with...

According to Wikipedia:

   A *tomboy* is a girl who exhibits characteristics or
   behaviors considered typical of a boy,  including wearing
   masculine clothing and engaging in games and activities that are
   physical in nature and are considered in many cultures to be
   “unfeminine” or the domain of boys.

Just because there is a wikipedia entry, doesn’t mean we have to 
subscribe to it.


Some girls climb trees.

Some girls wear dresses.

Some girls climb trees while wearing dresses



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Re: [Gendergap] Article: Wikipedia trolls now vs. women architects

[Carol Moore dc]

One can always just study the relevant articles.
But often it's a double standard in application of policies.
So if it's a guy architect with a couple low quality refs,
people won't even bother to notice or respond.
But if it's a woman architect with 7 or 8 solid ones,
it becomes a cause celebre to delete the article.
And none of that "give the women a chance to
beef it up" nonsense either.

It tends to be quite irrational and knee jerk.
I've seen the same thing on articles about writers,
professors, politicians, anyone with even a mild
POV that goes against the alleged mainstream.
Their articles sometimes are ruthlessly attacked
and nitpicked. But if you just put a tag for
better references (or any references at all!) on
 articles about individuals with an allegedly more
mainstream view who editors merely claim are
important in their field, you may get a lot of grief.

That's what systemic bias is all about it.


On 4/11/2015 5:55 PM, Rob wrote:
Can anyone point to where this "troll" behavior happened? There don't 
seem to be a lot of specifics in this article, and I'm wondering if 
it's gender trolls (which are, alas, plentiful) or a culture clash 
between old editors and new ones over unfamiliar policies?


On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Carol Moore dc 
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


On 4/10/2015 6:33 PM, Siko Bouterse wrote:

This is the grant proposal referenced at the end of that
article (currently under review as part of Inspire):

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/More_Female_Architects_on_Wikipedia

I remember NOT commenting on that one because I figured, who could
have a problem with that?

How soon we forget that getting MORE women articles and editors
was and remains controversial.

Banging head vs. wall


CM


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Re: [Gendergap] Article: Wikipedia trolls now vs. women architects

[Carol Moore dc]

On 4/10/2015 6:33 PM, Siko Bouterse wrote:
This is the grant proposal referenced at the end of that article 
(currently under review as part of Inspire):

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/More_Female_Architects_on_Wikipedia

I remember NOT commenting on that one because I figured, who could have 
a problem with that?


How soon we forget that getting MORE women articles and editors was and 
remains controversial.


Banging head vs. wall


CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Sorted by category... Progress of Inspire Grants – Gender gap campaign

[Carol Moore dc]

There are definitely dozens of really good projects in there. But the 
one that I think has the most promise for making a real sea-change is 
this one because it deals with males changing their behavior.


https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Allies

Hopefully some guys - including and especially here - will help make it 
happen! :-)


CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Sorted by category... Progress of Inspire Grants – Gender gap campaign

[Carol Moore dc]

OK, I'm finally going through now to see if issues I care about are covered.

The good news is there is a page sorting them by category and displaying 
the proposal name.


So check it out before it's too late.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Inspire/Ideas_by_theme

A few obviously are insulting (obviously or subtly) and even though 
there isn't a space for criticism, if one sees some promise, one can 
always advise on how  to tweak the proposal.


CM



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Re: [Gendergap] Some motivation (:

[Carol Moore dc]

On 3/26/2015 3:26 AM, Jane Darnell wrote:

Kerry,
Thanks for that effort and I totally agree. Dyed-in-the-wool 
Wikipedians quickly develop a blind eye for other ways of approaching 
the topic of an edit-a-thon and it is the fresh perspective of the 
attendees that keeps us up-to-date and challenges the workflows we 
currently keep in place. So whether or not those attendees go on to 
become Wikipedians, edit-a-thons remain a very productive tool for 
bringing Wikipedians together with their reading public in focused 
topic areas.
I think the two most important things, at this early stage just to keep 
them coming back are:


* identify at the edit-a-thon the passion of each editor; that's what 
keeps them coming back; the topic of the edit-a-thon may be of passing 
or mild interest, but a passion lasts for years


* make sure there are at least two more lined up, even two hour sessions 
after work, and encourage them to come and help them with their area of 
interest. (DC does do something like that in a slightly less structured 
way.) It really does have to be more hands on.


Even as a compulsive writer, I only started editing because of crappy 
articles about myself, my peace group and a couple of acquaintances. It 
took another 8 months before it clicked in my head that I could improve 
articles on all sorts of topics I was interested in and started doing 
so.   If I'd started with edit-a-thons that really clued me into how to 
use Wikipedia for the latter, it would have made sure I got to the 
second point and didn't just forget about editing after I'd dealt with 
those issues at hand.


CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia Day NYC 2015 mini-conferenceh for te project's 14th birthday

[Carol Moore dc]

If someone started "WomenCROWD" it would be interesting to see if the 
other "Crowd" meetups would support it. (AfroCROWD, HaitiCROWD, 
AfroLatinoCROWD, AfricaCROWD) Not that I think it's necessary, but it 
would be interesting to see the reaction. And I am curious as to what 
pushback they might have gotten and how they handled it.  But being 
banned from the site, I'm reluctant to use the email function to ask 
involved individuals. Maybe I'll just ask politely via twitter? Others 
can too, if you are curious...


On 3/23/2015 11:25 AM, Neotarf wrote:

That's interesting:

"The workshops are open to all Afrodescendants including but not 
limited to individuals who self-identify as African, African-American, 
Afro-Latino, Biracial, Black, Black-American, Caribbean, Garifuna, 
Haitian or West Indian."


I've never seen editithons that exclude people before.  I've been to a 
couple of black history events, and all were welcomed, although of 
course there was a very high proportion of African descent. Likewise, 
the women's editing events I have attended have been very welcoming to 
men, although as you would expect, there is a very high attendance 
level for women.




On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Carol Moore dc 
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia_Day_2015

Wikipedia Day NYC 2015 is a celebration and mini-conference for
the project's 14th birthday,* to be held on Sunday March 22, 2015,
hosted at Barnard College starting at 10:00 am, and also supported
by Wikimedia New York City and fellow Free Culture Alliance NYC
partners.

There are various events, sessions, talks, etc. Nothing women
oriented but I do see involvement by a new  NYC meetup group:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/AfroCrowd";

Talk page hasn't even been opened yet to comment on its goal: "to
increase the number of people of African Descent who actively
partake in the Wikimedia and free knowledge, culture and software
movements."  I guess meetups targeted on certain groups are less
controversial than task forces.



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[Gendergap] Wikipedia Day NYC 2015 mini-conferenceh for te project's 14th birthday

[Carol Moore dc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia_Day_2015

Wikipedia Day NYC 2015 is a celebration and mini-conference for the 
project's 14th birthday,* to be held on Sunday March 22, 2015, hosted at 
Barnard College starting at 10:00 am, and also supported by Wikimedia 
New York City and fellow Free Culture Alliance NYC partners.


There are various events, sessions, talks, etc. Nothing women oriented 
but I do see involvement by a new  NYC meetup group: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/AfroCrowd";


Talk page hasn't even been opened yet to comment on its goal: "to 
increase the number of people of African Descent who actively partake in 
the Wikimedia and free knowledge, culture and software movements."  I 
guess meetups targeted on certain groups are less controversial than 
task forces.




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Re: [Gendergap] "We Can [Edit]!" in Copenhagen

[Carol Moore dc]

I see several successful edit-a-thons mentioned.

My mere question this time :-)

Are the various sexism issues addressed at all (i.e., insults, harassment,
double-standards) and what are the ways advised to deal with them.

I know I'd feel better knowing that there is a constructive way to deal
with them before they happen.

I just don't feel going to edit-a-thons now (where I'd have to mention
I only can work on other Wikimedia projects) because I don't want it to
just be Carol whining about her bad experiences... sigh...

CM

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