from:"JJ Marr"

Re: [Gendergap] How to increase the diversity of Wikimedia technical contributors and staff?

2017-08-07 Thread JJ Marr

I think Wikipedia editors should be a higher priority than technical
contributors. If one looks at most of the STEM community, it appears to be
a systematic problem in underrepresentation. On the other hand, in the
editing environment, there is an underrepresentation of women identifying
editors but at the same time there is a much more gender equal proportion
of women writers in the wider world.

The problem of women editors is a Wikipedia-centric problem, while women
technical staff is one within the wider world and will take a lot more than
just a Wikimedia drive.

On 07 Aug 2017 9:31 AM, "Fluffernutter wiki" 
wrote:

> This is a topic of much interest to me. Thank you for bringing it up!
>
> First, though, I want to tease apart two of the points you make here,
> Pine: increasing technical contributions/participation by non-majority
> demographics, and increasing the number of people from non-majority
> demographics who get technical degrees or take technical jobs. The two are
> related, but not the same, and I would encourage us to think about both
> when we think about how to increase our movement's diversity. For instance,
> I do not have a STEM degree, and I will almost certainly never be the
> person who applies for or wins technical/programming jobs. But I *am *a
> person who is interested in making some technical contributions where I
> think they could be useful. What you could do to get me to step into that
> space is not necessarily what you should do to get another young woman to
> take a Computer Science degree.
>
> The rest of this email will focus on my thoughts as someone in the first
> group - someone who is not a vocational technical contributor, but has very
> tentatively been easing a toe into the waters of technical contributions in
> the past year in my spare time.
>
> On an individual level, what I have found extremely helpful on the part of
> other people/communities has been to for them to let me *know that there
> is a particular person or venue I can approach for help with my
> probably-stupid questions when I get stuck, who not only won't judge me
> harshly, but will enjoy the experience of helping me learn*. And it's not
> enough for that person/venue to exist in a conceptual way - a lot of the
> time I need to be explicitly invited to approach them (and maybe even later
>  reassured that "no, really, approach them! they like helping!"), because
> otherwise I will assume what is true of many other technical spaces/people:
> they do not welcome those who are not already up to speed.[1]
>
> In the case of the contributions I've been working on thus far, I was
> lucky enough to already be acquainted with a community-oriented technical
> contributor who enjoys helping people who want to solve technical problems
> but who need a little support in figuring out the implementation. *I
> can't overstate how much further I have gotten in building my scripts, etc
> simply because I know I can reach out to this particular person when I get
> stuck, and they will not only help me figure out how to get un-stuck, but
> they will give me a digestible explanation for how the un-sticking works*,
> so that I am one more step forward for the next time I try. Knowing that
> the support is there gives me the guts to try new things without worrying
> too much about it being "wasted time" when I hit the limits of my own
> knowledge. In my case, my helper happens to be male and someone I already
> knew, but I can easily imagine that for many non-majority people coming
> into technical contributions who don't already have connections to anyone,
> it would be even better if they knew there was someone of a particular
> gender, etc that they felt at ease with who was basically wearing a sign
> that said "Ask me your stupid questions! I want to help!"
>
> Similarly, I haven't yet attended any technical events like hackathons,
> but I'm very curious about them. I like the idea of going in with an idea
> and coming out with a thing I built. However, I have the (possibly
> incorrect?) impression right now that hackathons are for people who are
> already capable of building their thing, not for people who are working on
> learning to build their thing, and so I feel that if I were to attend one,
> I would either be a bother to everyone else who feels forced to help me
> when I ask question after question, or I would simply spend the weekend
> watching everyone else capably build things while I sat on the sidelines. 
> *What
> would get me over that hill of anxiety and into a hackathon? Basically
> being told ahead of time and explicitly that help would not only be
> available, but also easily found and enthusiastically given*. Perhaps
> something like a program that says "Room C will be staffed all weekend by
> experienced technical contributors who are available to help beginners or
> those who need another opinion", or a system of "people wearing the orange
> lanyards are

Re: [Gendergap] FYI - GGTF case appeal

2017-07-15 Thread JJ Marr

This seems more about Neotarf's personal ban more than anything else.
Looking at the arbcom findings of fact (which I won't quote here), it
doesn't look like the ban was related to the gender gap on Wikipedia as
much as behaviour displayed towards other editors.

Maybe it would be better for the mailing list if we stopped talking about
this? Just a suggestion.

On 15 Jul 2017 8:20 PM, "Nathan" <nawr...@gmail.com> wrote:


I believe because the ArbCom case regards the 'Gender Gap Task Force'

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 7:24 PM, JJ Marr <jjm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How does this relate to the gender gap on Wikimedia again?
>
> On 15 Jul 2017 6:00 PM, "Neotarf" <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to follow up, the WMF has now responded.  I appreciate them taking
> time to review these concerns.
>
>
> >>>your best course of action is to discuss the PII situation with WMF
> Legal.
>
> Been and done, also involvement from C-levels, although that was some time
> ago
>
>
> >>>a few other remedies which could come into play, but they would almost
> certainly take longer and be more politically problematic than a minimal
> intervention
>
> If this is necessary, we should not shrink from it.  If this can happen to
> me, it can happen to anyone -- your students, your employees, or someone
> like Bassel Khartabil. The arbitrators should not be using dox as a tool to
> silence voices for diversity or as an arbitration outcome.
>
> The foundation lost social capital during the media viewer/visual
> editor/flow controversies, because the community went to a great deal of
> effort to document the problems with those products, and was not listened
> to.  But that was a long time ago, and the community has now lost the high
> ground, largely because of the gender issue. 640 people voted in the 2014
> arbcom election, but after this GGTF case, 2674 people voted in the 2015
> election. Is there any doubt that the arbcom is out of touch with the
> community, and that the community process is failing?  The arbitration
> committee was not established by the community, it was established by Jimmy
> Wales. Is there any doubt the foundation has the capability and the
> resources to step in and protect the long term interests of the movement if
> the arbcom and the community process can not?
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately I don't think there is much more I can do here. Based on
>> what you wrote, I think that your best course of action is to discuss the
>> PII situation with WMF Legal. There are a few other remedies which could
>> come into play, but they would almost certainly take longer and be more
>> politically problematic than a minimal intervention in which WMF Legal
>> clarifies to the Ombuds and Arbcom what is required under WMF's
>> interpretation of its privacy policy.
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The privacy policy as written certainly leads users to expect their PII
>>> is safe. There is nothing I can find in the written policy that would back
>>> the idea that the ombuds should refuse to remove PII if they think it might
>>> have been posted in good faith. If it could be used to identify someone, it
>>> should just be removed. That's just basic safety.  Maybe they are not
>>> allowed to go against arbitrators  I also don't understand why arbitrators
>>> would insist on posting PII over and over. We have seen too much what that
>>> can lead to. In all fairness, the gamergate sub-reddit was very
>>> professional and removed the dox within an hour of my request.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmm. I'd like to take a closer look at this, but unfortunately I'm
>>>> already backlogged with other projects. I wish I knew what to suggest here.
>>>> If you have already been to the Ombudsman Commission and you disagree with
>>>> their interpretation of WMF policies, then you might try to contact WMF
>>>> Legal, although I don't know to what extent they will want to involve
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>> For what it's worth, if I had my way the OC would (1) have
>>>> significantly more independence from the WMF Board and staff and (2) be
>>>> issuing monthly or quarterly reports about its activities, but
>>>> realistically the current setup is likely to continue for the foreseeable
>>>> future.
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>

Re: [Gendergap] FYI - GGTF case appeal

2017-07-15 Thread JJ Marr

How does this relate to the gender gap on Wikimedia again?

On 15 Jul 2017 6:00 PM, "Neotarf"  wrote:

Just to follow up, the WMF has now responded.  I appreciate them taking
time to review these concerns.


>>>your best course of action is to discuss the PII situation with WMF
Legal.

Been and done, also involvement from C-levels, although that was some time
ago


>>>a few other remedies which could come into play, but they would almost
certainly take longer and be more politically problematic than a minimal
intervention

If this is necessary, we should not shrink from it.  If this can happen to
me, it can happen to anyone -- your students, your employees, or someone
like Bassel Khartabil. The arbitrators should not be using dox as a tool to
silence voices for diversity or as an arbitration outcome.

The foundation lost social capital during the media viewer/visual
editor/flow controversies, because the community went to a great deal of
effort to document the problems with those products, and was not listened
to.  But that was a long time ago, and the community has now lost the high
ground, largely because of the gender issue. 640 people voted in the 2014
arbcom election, but after this GGTF case, 2674 people voted in the 2015
election. Is there any doubt that the arbcom is out of touch with the
community, and that the community process is failing?  The arbitration
committee was not established by the community, it was established by Jimmy
Wales. Is there any doubt the foundation has the capability and the
resources to step in and protect the long term interests of the movement if
the arbcom and the community process can not?

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Unfortunately I don't think there is much more I can do here. Based on
> what you wrote, I think that your best course of action is to discuss the
> PII situation with WMF Legal. There are a few other remedies which could
> come into play, but they would almost certainly take longer and be more
> politically problematic than a minimal intervention in which WMF Legal
> clarifies to the Ombuds and Arbcom what is required under WMF's
> interpretation of its privacy policy.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>> The privacy policy as written certainly leads users to expect their PII
>> is safe. There is nothing I can find in the written policy that would back
>> the idea that the ombuds should refuse to remove PII if they think it might
>> have been posted in good faith. If it could be used to identify someone, it
>> should just be removed. That's just basic safety.  Maybe they are not
>> allowed to go against arbitrators  I also don't understand why arbitrators
>> would insist on posting PII over and over. We have seen too much what that
>> can lead to. In all fairness, the gamergate sub-reddit was very
>> professional and removed the dox within an hour of my request.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm. I'd like to take a closer look at this, but unfortunately I'm
>>> already backlogged with other projects. I wish I knew what to suggest here.
>>> If you have already been to the Ombudsman Commission and you disagree with
>>> their interpretation of WMF policies, then you might try to contact WMF
>>> Legal, although I don't know to what extent they will want to involve
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, if I had my way the OC would (1) have significantly
>>> more independence from the WMF Board and staff and (2) be issuing monthly
>>> or quarterly reports about its activities, but realistically the current
>>> setup is likely to continue for the foreseeable future.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] FYI - GGTF case appeal

2017-07-09 Thread JJ Marr

"I emailed the WMF in relation to my enwiki arbcom case"

You're getting ignored because the WMF doesn't want to get involved in
community processes. Sorry to be blunt, but you should try emailing ArbCom
before making this type of posting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Standard_provision:_appeals_and_modifications

On 09 Jul 2017 1:47 AM, "Neotarf" wrote:

Hello, this is to let everyone know that I have submitted an appeal to the
GGTF case.

It has been very difficult to try to respond to the accusations in this
arbitration case, because I don't understand them. Everyone who has looked
at the diffs has found nothing. Kevin Gorman called them "flimsy". Even
Wikipediocracy, which has no particular love for me, could find nothing.
After having had time to go through some of the histories, I found that
half of the diffs were from someone who wrote a program specifically to
collect diffs of my edits in order to sift through them and who was able to
use the program to discover IP addresses as well. The other half of the
diffs were added to the case by one of the arbitrators after the evidence
phase of the case had closed and included edits made by Jimmy Wales and one
of the admins--not even my edits. I don't want to say a lot about this on
a public mailing list, but at this point it is pretty obvious that this is
a false conviction.

I understand I was eligible to appeal this after one year, however I have
waited more than two years. My initial inquiry to the WMF was on 11/17/16.
I was assigned a member of the WMF staff and told I could expect to hear
something in mid-January. Since then, I have made three followup queries,
asking for an update to the expected timeline, but have been unable to get
any response at all. At this point, there is no reason to believe the
non-response is not deliberate.

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Re: [Gendergap] Wiktionary desperately needs more gender-aware editors

2017-05-27 Thread JJ Marr

I, personally, would rather that this list not be used to criticize
specific editors in a forum that they have no opportunity to respond in.
I'm not a list admin, but I'm pretty sure this list is for talking about
general issues relating to the gender gap.

I would strongly recommend to use the existing dispute resolution methods
available onwiki instead of coming to this list to complain about specific
editors and their actions.

I'd also take this opportunity to ask that the list admins create a
transparent set of rules for messages sent to this list, because there has
been a lot of uncivil discourse before on this mailing list and I think it
would be prudent to ensure a clear set of guidelines are in force to ensure
civility in the future.

On May 27, 2017 21:16, "Heather Walls"  wrote:

Inline replies to 3 people...

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 1:57 PM, J Hayes  wrote:

> the smaller wikis have ownership issues , the arguments are so vehement
> because the stakes are so small.
>
> i would advise trying out lots of other wikis like commons or wikisource
> or wikidata. friendlier at source, and lots more metadata cleanup to do at
> commons / wikidata.
>

Hello J. When someone comes to an issue-specific list to discuss that
issue, why would you recommend that they just edit somewhere else and not
speak to their question? Isn't it the point of this list to discuss
gendergap issues?



> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:13 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of being labelled biased, I do not see that that was a
>> legitimate fix to address systemic bias. It looked rather pointy to me.
>> Perhaps you could explain just how it addressed systemic bias in a useful
>> way.
>>
>> Cheers, Peter
>>
>
Peter, what I see in that first edit was the removal of a sentence that
spoke about the appearance of a woman for no reason at all. There is more
information here http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Beauty_duty



>  *From:* Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jessy D. King
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 April 2017 7:27 PM
>> *To:* Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> *Subject:* [Gendergap] Wiktionary *desperately* needs more gender-aware
>> editors
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm new to this list, this is my first post.
>>
>>
>>
>> If Wikipedia is a boy's club, Wiktionary is an uber boy's club. It *so*
>> desperately needs people interested in addressing systemic bias.
>>
>>
>>
>> Every time I try to make completely legitimate fixes to address systemic
>> bias of the male privilege variety (for example,
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=so=revision
>> =42598962=42598906 )
>>
>> it is reverted very quickly (in the just-referenced case, within 10
>> minutes). Then a fight must ensue in which I'm accused of being things like
>> "dishonest", "disrespectful" and 'railing'. The person in this case has
>> demonstrated his double standards in his edit summary and in his comments
>> to me on his talk page, and that is absolutely (unfortunately) the norm
>> amongst long-term Wiktionary editors.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is incredibly demoralising. My contributions to Wiktionary include
>> adding etymologies, adding quotations, all with absolutely no gender issues
>> involved, yet none of that work is ever recognised in any way, and I'm
>> treated like a resented interloper. The majority of long-term Wiktionary
>> editors seem to bitterly resent the very suggestion of addressing systemic
>> bias. It is a really, really nasty little uber boy's club in there. Which I
>> realise may not encourage anyone to join, I'm just being honest.
>>
>
Hello Jessy, I appreciate your efforts to remove gender issues from
Wiktionary. I am disappointed that you found a similar reaction in this
list.

Warmly,
Heather




>
>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Women's march speeches repeatedly put up for deletion

2017-01-30 Thread JJ Marr

Two wrongs don't make a right and using this mailing list to advocate for
that crosses a line.

On Jan 30, 2017 05:11, "Fæ"  wrote:

> Link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_
> requests/File:Activist_Gloria_Steinem_Tells_Women%27s_March_
> Protesters_%27Put_Our_Bodies_Where_Our_Beliefs_Are%27.webm
>
> I am concerned that amongst the many videos of talks and speeches
> where people refer to their notes, it is these recent Women's march
> videos that have been targeted to set an unusual precedent and are
> being vigorously argued for deletion, along with some parallel
> drama-mongering on Jimmy Wales' talk page. Perhaps it would be
> healthier to put up an equal number of comparative videos of men
> talking at WMF events, using the same arguments about prepared notes
> needing to be published before the video can be considered correctly
> released; or would that be too pointy?
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Inside Higher Ed: "The Woes of Wikipedia"

2016-08-24 Thread JJ Marr

My favorite is the article criticizing "cultural logics" like "valuing
logic over emotion… individual liberty over the common good, and a sense of
entitlement wrapped in a defense of 'free speech'". Really makes you think…

On Aug 23, 2016 9:23 PM, "J Hayes"  wrote:

> Yes a little fallout from an Afc  reviewer taken to ani
> Why she was wasting her copy-editing talent at that wasteland is beyond me
> The bad press will continue until the culture improves
> Cheers
>
> On Aug 23, 2016 19:51, "Carol Moore dc"  wrote:
>
>> https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/library-babel-fish/woes-wikipedia
>>
>> Good 8/23/16 summary of issues and past problems.
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

2016-05-12 Thread JJ Marr

We shouldn't conflate "creepy" and "harassment" at all, to be honest. Sure,
plenty of things that are creepy are also harassment, but plenty of things
that are considered creepy are just poor social skills (laughing
inappropriately) and may even be due to health conditions (greasy skin).

Harassment is a very serious allegation implying plenty of abuse, and using
the term in conjunction with "creepy" degrades it to a level not befitting
of what it truly is.

Also, saying "defining harassment" and then implying that the definition of
it is the "nature of creepiness" feels pretty discriminatory to those who
are less privileged in the area of social skills. Sometimes I don't know
when I'm talking about a subject for too long, and labelling that "creepy"
and implying it might be harassment seems to be crossing the line for me.
On May 10, 2016 12:01 PM, "Neotarf"  wrote:

A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology, unfortunately
behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]

Some highlights:

*"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments?  – *No, telling a woman
how sexy she is isn’t a compliment, especially when you don’t have that
level of intimacy with her."

*"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the potential for
ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that because one’s creep-radar is
keyed towards finding potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s
behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if you’re continually
wondering if this person actually poses a threat to you, you’re left in a
state of anxious paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine
just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is. Guessing wrong can
have consequences, after all; misjudge a potential threat and now you’ve
made yourself vulnerable to someone who means you harm."

*"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by ignoring issues of
boundaries and demonstrating that they have more information about somebody
than they should." Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying
at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously realize how
f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message a woman out of the blue
insinuating he knows where she is?"

*From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line and manages not
to cross it obviously knows where it is."

[1] http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/

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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

2016-05-10 Thread JJ Marr

Other highlights:

>From the list of "creepy" behavior

>Laughing at inappropriate times

>Talking too much about a topic

>Displaying too much or too little emotion

>Smiling peculiarly

>Having excessively pale skin

>Having bags under their eyes

and then

>Here’s the thing: not being creepy *isn’t that hard*.

>Many of the examples of creepy behavior listed in the Knox University
study could be avoided throughbasic social calibration
 and
being aware of the other person’s signals.

Setting aside that a lot of Wikipedians don't have "basic social
calibration", a lot of these behaviors are uncontrollable in general. If
you're "suggesting that Wikipedia editors display aberrant behavior which
prospective female editors find creepy, making it less likely that they
will contribute?", as another has proposed, a lot (but not all) of these
"creepy traits" that allegedly make women less likely to contribute are
uncontrollable by those who have them. I need to stop smiling peculiarly?
What does that mean? And if we want to attract women to Wikipedia by
removing creepy people, does that mean I might get banned due to me talking
"too much" about a certain topic?
On May 10, 2016 12:25 PM, "Nathan"  wrote:

> It boils down to "people with aberrant behavior or bearing produce anxiety
> in women." This is drawn from a Facebook survey. It's interesting, even if
> the "study" doesn't really produce any more knowledge than most other
> Facebook surveys.
>
> The link to the problem of addressing Wikipedia's gendergap seems tenuous;
> are you suggesting that Wikipedia editors display aberrant behavior which
> prospective female editors find creepy, making it less likely that they
> will contribute?
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>> A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology, unfortunately
>> behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]
>>
>> Some highlights:
>>
>> *"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments?  – *No, telling a
>> woman how sexy she is isn’t a compliment, especially when you don’t have
>> that level of intimacy with her."
>>
>> *"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the potential for
>> ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that because one’s creep-radar is
>> keyed towards finding potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s
>> behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if you’re continually
>> wondering if this person actually poses a threat to you, you’re left in a
>> state of anxious paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine
>> just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is. Guessing wrong can
>> have consequences, after all; misjudge a potential threat and now you’ve
>> made yourself vulnerable to someone who means you harm."
>>
>> *"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by ignoring issues of
>> boundaries and demonstrating that they have more information about somebody
>> than they should." Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying
>> at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously realize how
>> f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message a woman out of the blue
>> insinuating he knows where she is?"
>>
>> *From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line and manages not
>> to cross it obviously knows where it is."
>>
>> [1] http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] The Virginia killings: he says bitch as he aims the weapon at her

2015-08-27 Thread JJ Marr

Yes, exactly. It's probably much more likely to be race driven than gender
driven, if you look at the reasons for his firing.
I spent most of yesterday NOT looking at the news, making my husband turn
off the TV when the news came on, and not logging in to any online
experience where I was likely to run into video related to this.  It is
what I do, as a matter of course, to make it through the day without
triggering the memories of terror I experienced as a result of being
involved in a very violent episode in the past.

This has nothing to do with Wikipedia, Wikimedia or the WMF.  The fact that
this man killed both a male and a female former colleague strongly indicate
that his problem was not gender-driven, that it was driven by the fact that
these former colleagues had complained about him in the past.  That people
with this sort of sociopathy use gender-specific descriptive nouns is
pretty much irrelevant, and I'm hard-pressed to understand why you think it
important to start a conversation about the utterings of someone this
mentally imbalanced to show that there is a gender gap *anywhere*, let
alone here. This guy was a powder keg, and he was striking out at anyone
whom he believed had caused him harm. I do not believe that his actions
were motivated by sexism.

Risker/Anne

On 27 August 2015 at 03:01, Neotarf neot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is there any doubt what this kind of language is for?
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIdrUHKkG6Y
 It's not for a collaborative environment, that's for sure.

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Re: [Gendergap] Interesting new book on trolling

2015-04-01 Thread JJ Marr

Is that a referral link?
On Apr 1, 2015 6:20 PM, Jake Orlowitz jorlow...@gmail.com wrote:

 This looks worth reading.

 This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things: Mapping the Relationship between
 Online Trolling and Mainstream Culture (Information Society Series)
 Hardcover - February 27, 2015by Whitney Phillips
 http://smile.amazon.com/Whitney-Phillips/e/B00TR4REOK/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1
   (Author)

 http://smile.amazon.com/This-Cant-Have-Nice-Things/dp/0262028948?sa-no-redirect=1

 Internet trolls live to upset as many people as possible, using all the
 technical and psychological tools at their disposal. They gleefully whip
 the media into a frenzy over a fake teen drug crisis; they post offensive
 messages on Facebook memorial pages, traumatizing grief-stricken friends
 and family; they use unabashedly racist language and images. They take
 pleasure in ruining a complete stranger's day and find amusement in their
 victim's anguish. In short, trolling is the obstacle to a kinder, gentler
 Internet. To quote a famous Internet meme, trolling is why we can't have
 nice things online. Or at least that's what we have been led to believe. In
 this provocative book, Whitney Phillips argues that trolling, widely
 condemned as obscene and deviant, actually fits comfortably within the
 contemporary media landscape. Trolling may be obscene, but, Phillips
 argues, it isn't all that deviant. Trolls' actions are born of and fueled
 by culturally sanctioned impulses -- which are just as damaging as the
 trolls' most disruptive behaviors.

 Phillips describes, for example, the relationship between trolling and
 sensationalist corporate media -- pointing out that for trolls,
 exploitation is a leisure activity; for media, it's a business strategy.
 She shows how trolls, the grimacing poster children for a socially
 networked world, align with social media. And she documents how trolls, in
 addition to parroting media tropes, also offer a grotesque pantomime of
 dominant cultural tropes, including gendered notions of dominance and
 success and an ideology of entitlement. We don't just have a trolling
 problem, Phillips argues; we have a culture problem. *This Is Why We
 Can't Have Nice Things *isn't only about trolls; it's about a culture in
 which trolls thrive.



 Jake (Ocaasi)

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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

2015-01-16 Thread JJ Marr

What will be discussed in this Kaffeeklatsch area?
 On Jan 16, 2015 4:56 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Whatever else cis is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
 sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
 coined term that is not used in science.

 Risker/Anne



 On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
 but, here's the Wikipedia article:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

 It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So,
 if you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's
 totally inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.

 I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's
 an insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
 movement.

 But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
 these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)

 Sarah

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey 
 fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com wrote:



 *Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.*
 ...wha?

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc 
 carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:

 Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#best_practice.3F,
 I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch area
 for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
 women would be welcome.

  Lightbreather

 Since cis means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

 Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.

 CM

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 -

 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

 www.sarahstierch.com

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Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: Update on 2012 editor survey results

2015-01-15 Thread JJ Marr

So, where is my money, Erik?
On Jan 15, 2015 6:15 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Lest conspiracy theories get any more exciting, I've asked Tilman (who
 just moved into my department, and has been responsible for the survey
 results) to give an update on where things are and what the main holdup has
 been.



 Thanks. It would be nice to be given *a date* this time by which the
 report will be published, rather than yet another soon. As you are
 Tilman's boss now, you can ensure that he will have time to complete the
 job, and not be sidetracked into other work.

 And please let's not kid ourselves. You know and I know that if the 2012
 survey had shown female participation at 25% (that was the target set for
 2015, by the way, the year we're now in), the report would have been out
 within months or weeks, accompanied by press releases and jingles -- and
 Sue Gardner would probably not have sounded *quite* so depressed about
 the gender gap in Hong Kong.

 More importantly, any commitment to diversity sounds hollow if you don't
 even measure community demographics. As far as I know, there hasn't been an
 editor survey since 2012, and there are currently no plans to have another.
 Is that correct?

 The United Nations University team did solid, professional work in
 2008-2010. How about asking them for a repeat performance?

 Andreas

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Re: [Gendergap] Women's wikipedia...was... Co-Op

2015-01-10 Thread JJ Marr

Well, IMHO, I recommend wikipedia-en-help for help, the people there are
great and polite, and will help you with almost any editing issue you can
think of. Recommend people to it if you can, we need a break from obviously
COI editors who need to be explained the exact rationale behind rejections
of AfC drafts.

Start your wiki, but beware of echo chambers! You might come up with a
great idea, that everyone on the small wiki might agree with, but when you
actually propose it, it'll get shot down because it wasn't palatable to the
wider Wikipedia community.
On Jan 10, 2015 10:28 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 1/9/2015 7:37 PM, JJ Marr wrote:


 You should try out Wikia. Make a female friendly Wikipedia, or
 something like that.

  Thanks. Have been meaning to explore it for other uses. Did see
 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page which was pretty amusing...

 It could be a place to do a Women's practice wiki with links to
 Wikipedia policy pages. Thus it could be both a safe place, a place to
 vent and seek advice, a place to practice proposed policies that are more
 women-friendly, etc. - all without being someplace that marginalizes women,
 which seems to be the main complaint...

 Would have to look at the software options...

 Thoughts on this more practical, less adventurous option??

 CM

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Re: [Gendergap] Women's wikipedia...was... Co-Op

2015-01-09 Thread JJ Marr

You should try out Wikia. Make a female friendly Wikipedia, or something
like that.
On Jan 9, 2015 7:33 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote:

  Was thinking about reforming wikipedia again! (fool that I am) and I
 started fantasizing about running into some billionaires I used to know and
 suggesting they just grab a mirror of Wikipedia and do it the right way

 Well, anyway, to make a long story, short I ran into this Wikipedia page
 that tells you the copyright compliant way to  do it.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks

 And various interesting things when I searched:
 https://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia+mirror+sitesie=utf-8oe=utf-8

 It does seem in the past there were some mirror sights that would jump up
 and be very up-to-date, but for whatever reason don't seem to run into them
 as much as in the past.

 Well, back to reality,  but just in case there are any pissed off
 multimillionaires in the audience :-)

 CM



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Re: [Gendergap] WikiProject Women

2015-01-06 Thread JJ Marr

Great job! The discussions would have to be publicly accessible, to avoid
an EEML type situation. Also, any consensus made there about external
issues would not be applicable, due to the lack of open participation.
On Jan 6, 2015 7:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Cool idea. I added some questions on the talk page.

 Kaldari

 On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:35 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well, I don't know if I did it right, but per Sarah's and Siko's
 suggestion, I started this:

 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women

 Just bare bones for now. I will work on it some more tomorrow.

 Lightbreather

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Re: [Gendergap] Iraqi human rights lawyer Samira Salih al-Nuaimi tortured and executed because Facebook; where is her Wikipedia article?

2014-12-22 Thread JJ Marr

You can make one, if you'd like.
On Dec 22, 2014 1:43 PM, Neotarf neot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Samira Salih al-Nuaimi (Arabic: سميرة صالح النعيمي  ) was kidnapped,
 tortured for 5 days, and publicly executed in the city of Mosul, after
 posting comments on Facebook that were critical of Islamic State (ISIL or
 ISIS) for their destruction of mosques and shrines. The U.N. reports a
 pattern of executions of women by the Islamic State, and states, “Educated,
 professional women seem to be particularly at risk.”

 Italian Wikipedia has an article at:
 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Saleh_al-Naimi

 Press coverage:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/world/middleeast/womens-rights-activist-executed-by-islamic-state-in-iraq.html?module=SearchmabReward=relbias%3Aw

 http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-iraq-islamic-state-kill-lawyer-20140925-story.html

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/samira-nuaimi-killed_n_5880900.html

 http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/09/25/ISIS-kills-Iraqi-woman-activist-.html

 http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/25/isis_executes_female_human_rights_lawyer_in_mosul_reports_say.html

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-publicly-execute-leading-lawyer-and-human-rights-activist-in-iraq-9756197.html

 http://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/un-envoy-condemns-public-execution-human-rights-lawyer-ms-sameera-al-nuaimy-enar

 http://translations.state.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/09/20140926308964.html?CP.rss=true#axzz3MO9GMfeg

 Regards,
 Neotarf


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Re: [Gendergap] Iraqi human rights lawyer Samira Salih al-Nuaimi tortured and executed because Facebook; where is her Wikipedia article?

2014-12-22 Thread JJ Marr

Oh, forgot. But creating this article might fall afoul of the meatpuppetry
policy.
Neotarf is blocked from English Wikipedia, from what I know.

Hence this post?

-Sarah

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 10:56 AM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

 You can make one, if you'd like.
 On Dec 22, 2014 1:43 PM, Neotarf neot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Samira Salih al-Nuaimi (Arabic: سميرة صالح النعيمي  ) was kidnapped,
 tortured for 5 days, and publicly executed in the city of Mosul, after
 posting comments on Facebook that were critical of Islamic State (ISIL or
 ISIS) for their destruction of mosques and shrines. The U.N. reports a
 pattern of executions of women by the Islamic State, and states, “Educated,
 professional women seem to be particularly at risk.”

 Italian Wikipedia has an article at:
 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Saleh_al-Naimi

 Press coverage:


 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/world/middleeast/womens-rights-activist-executed-by-islamic-state-in-iraq.html?module=SearchmabReward=relbias%3Aw

 http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-iraq-islamic-state-kill-lawyer-20140925-story.html

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/samira-nuaimi-killed_n_5880900.html

 http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/09/25/ISIS-kills-Iraqi-woman-activist-.html

 http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/25/isis_executes_female_human_rights_lawyer_in_mosul_reports_say.html

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-publicly-execute-leading-lawyer-and-human-rights-activist-in-iraq-9756197.html

 http://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/un-envoy-condemns-public-execution-human-rights-lawyer-ms-sameera-al-nuaimy-enar

 http://translations.state.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/09/20140926308964.html?CP.rss=true#axzz3MO9GMfeg

 Regards,
 Neotarf


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Re: [Gendergap] Women, cliques and Wikipedia's tyranny of structurelessness

2014-12-10 Thread JJ Marr

Does anyone have a proposed action plan to do anything about this?
On Dec 10, 2014 3:05 PM, regu...@gmail.com regu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree with most of what risker says. There are several groups on the
 project that exert undue influence over their articles whether male or
 female. If the wmf gets involvedvat all, it should be to ensure that
 policies are enforced evenly throughout the project and these,power cabals
 are broken up.



 Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device





 -- Original message--

 *From: *Risker

 *Date: *Wed, Dec 10, 2014 2:46 PM

 *To: *Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation of women within Wikimedia projects.;

 *Subject:*Re: [Gendergap] Women, cliques and Wikipedia's tyranny of
 structurelessness



 Carol said:

 I do think there are structural things that can be imposed by the
 Wikimedia Foundation to make reforms happen.  (Whether they'll choose the
 right reforms and the right people to make them happen is a whole 'nother
 story.) *But the purpose of this thread is not to discuss specific
 reforms, but to **focus on the issue of male dominated Wikipedia cliques
 intent on keeping Wikipedia a place where dominant males don't have to put
 up with these damned women (or radical feminist c*nts/tw*ats in their
 minds) who keep yammering about making Wikipedia a nice (or even safe!)
 place to edit.* Discussion of some womens' complicity in all this
 obviously is relevant too.





 I'm not certain you've got it right here, Carol.  I think the cliques
 (which, given the overall makeup of the project, are almost always
 male-dominated) don't want to put up with *anyone*, male or female, that
 opposes their view.  I've seen female-dominated cliques on the project
 (rare as they are) behave equally appallingly.  There are corners of the
 project where any interloper, regardless of gender, is treated with the
 back of the hand by the regulars, whether those regulars are male or
 female.

 A friend of mine recently reminded me of the language of southern ladies
 and how they often use perfectly normal sounding phrases to cut people to
 the core.  (A classic example would be bless his heart or, more
 emphatically, bless his dear little heart - which to all the world reads
 like a slight eye-roll, but is actually properly decoded as that idiot or
 (more emphatically) that *frickin* idiot.)  I've seen a lot of examples
 of that on Wikipedia, where it's been so obvious that the written word
 *reads* civilly but is intended as a cutting insult - in my experience,
 women editors use this method out of proportion to the percentage of women
 on the project - and in some ways it is an even greater insult because it's
 hard to persuade others that what look like civil words are being used to
 convey quite the opposite meaning.

 Risker/Anne




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Re: [Gendergap] Arbcom election

2014-12-09 Thread JJ Marr

What is your proposed solution?
On Dec 9, 2014 8:14 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Checking the votes at
 
 https://vote.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?limit=1000title=Special%3ASecurePoll%2Flist%2F392dir=prev
 
 against the English Wikipedia database, shows an interesting
 statistic. Of the 590 votes cast only *one* voter has an account
 marked with their gender as female.

 Obviously many people prefer not to use the user preferences on-wiki
 to mark their gender, however it still seems a remarkably low figure
 for a project which has a strategic objective to be welcoming to users
 who identify as women.

 Fae
 --
 fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wikie

2014-11-30 Thread JJ Marr

What do you propose a take back the night would be like?
On Nov 30, 2014 8:12 AM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, one can see easily how they move from topic to topic. Connected and
ensuring their POV dominates.

The issue of feminism should not be defined by men whose motivation seems
to be to create an environment where women are free to be what they (the
men discussed here ) imagine to us to be.

I believe that Marie's statements about keeping these issues off one's
main course are the result of continuous attacks.

Wikipedia needs a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT movement. In my days on campus women
attacked were told they shouldn't be out at night.So marches began to TAKE
BACK THE NIGHT.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:16 AM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

To quote you in the context of your dispute over a video, you say I
dispute that it makes little sense and why does it even need to add
informational value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article
as pictures and videos often are? I ask why don't you take that dispute up
with the editor in question?

Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no context
to this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content dispute.

Please explain why this is relevant to the gender gap, since you are
sending it out to everyone on the gender gap mailing list, and secondly,
why a minor content dispute on enwiki is relevant to the Wikimedia gender
gap community as a whole.
On Nov 30, 2014 1:47 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing
one (I've checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway

Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward

...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue?

In particular this comment:
...As has been indicated on the talk page of the proposed decision,
*repeatedly,* there is some question as to exactly *which* women this
group seems to be reaching out toward, specifically, whether it is more or
less of a more or less radical feminist perspective

I thought it summed up in a nutshell what the GGTF was really up
against. It's a kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
* Are you now or have you ever been a feminist who believes that sex
work is the opposite of feminism?
Anyone who answers yes that question is judged to be a radical, a
subversive who wants to push POV and therefore they are fair game.

On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of categories
of feminist
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=544136790
and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to
organize it chronologically and it meant that anti-pornography feminists,
anti-prostitution feminists and socialist feminists could go onto the
list
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=545667727

The list has recently been changed to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with a
couple of editors to see how we can improve it further.

I've largely avoided trouble by sticking to admin based work such as
this, and similar work:
Cleaning up bibliographies, e.g. Joseph Schumpeter, from this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeteroldid=633566034#Major_works
to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeteroldid=634343909#Major_works

Creating an article for the International Association for Feminist
Economics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_Feminist_Economics
and improving the article for the Human Development and Capability
Association
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_and_Capability_Association
then creating biographies for past presidents of IAFFE and fellows of
the HDCA.
Adding DOBs to notable scholars and then adding them to Wiki's calendar
(births).

These organisations / individuals argues against sex work on the grounds
of the perception of women that is generated (i.e. as a thing / object).
The problem with the MRA, pro-porn, pro-sex work POV is they have no
problem with anti-porn etc. POV provided it is in a box labelled mad or
religious with a sub-text that the only people that could possibly
support that POV are from the moral right and are probably racist and
homophobic as well. The other problem that the MRA have is that, human
development and capability, which includes feminist economics / inequality
/ care work etc. collectively constitutes a 'single broad topic'
(WP:SPATG), so they are unable to stop editors, who wish to edit in this
area, from doing so. The natural place for this work is within the Gender
Studies project. Which is why they write nonsense like this:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fighting-wikipedia

Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

2014-11-30 Thread JJ Marr

You could go to Citizendium, considering that has a lack of anonymity and
strict civility rules.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizendium
http://citizendium.org/
On Nov 30, 2014 11:52 AM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

The only solution would be lack of anonymity. That won't fly, but it would
cause the creepiness to go away.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:42 AM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

What do you propose a take back the night would be like?
On Nov 30, 2014 8:12 AM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, one can see easily how they move from topic to topic. Connected and
ensuring their POV dominates.

The issue of feminism should not be defined by men whose motivation
seems to be to create an environment where women are free to be what
they (the men discussed here ) imagine to us to be.

I believe that Marie's statements about keeping these issues off one's
main course are the result of continuous attacks.

Wikipedia needs a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT movement. In my days on campus
women attacked were told they shouldn't be out at night.So marches began
to TAKE BACK THE NIGHT.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:16 AM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no
context to this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content
dispute.

Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing
one (I've checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway

Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward

...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue?

On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of
categories of feminist
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=544136790
and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to
organize it chronologically and it meant that anti-pornography
feminists,
anti-prostitution feminists and socialist feminists could go onto the
list
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=545667727

The list has recently been changed to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with
a couple of editors to see how we can improve it further.

Re: [Gendergap] WP:ANI on Disruption of Gender Gap Task Force

2014-11-29 Thread JJ Marr

Check your spam folder
On Nov 29, 2014 4:05 PM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

Okay, so this is the last message that I had in my e-mail inbox (it's from
4 September 2014).

I've checked my settings and they show me as still subscribing to the list
and the check-box to receive the messages is ticked.

Can someone please look into how I've dropped off the system?

Thanks

Marie

--
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:47:08 -0400
From: carolmoor...@verizon.net
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Gendergap] WP:ANI on Disruption of Gender Gap Task Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruption_of_Wikiproject

After multiple complaints by other editors about this, I decided to bring
an ANI. It might not be the best constructed one possible. And maybe I'm
not the best person to do it, being a little too outspoken (I even make
jokes!) and controversial with too many enemies (guys who don't like
women who stick to their opinions on hot topics?)

But the project is so disrupted I cannot even put up the resources page
because I know that it will be gutted down to zilch by one editor
especially if I do. (He's been wikihounding me and reverting me for over a
year and multiple complaints have come to naught.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1

The community has to face the fact that this is the only Wikiproject under
attack.

Like I said, other projects don't permit it.

Can you imagine if it were permitted on the Palestine or Israel
wikiprojects and they were going at each other? Or the Christian and LGBT?
Absurd...

At least Mr. Wales agrees... sigh...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#WP:ANI_on_.E2.80.9Cdisruption_of_Wikiproject.E2.80.9D

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Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

2014-11-29 Thread JJ Marr

To quote you in the context of your dispute over a video, you say I
dispute that it makes little sense and why does it even need to add
informational value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article
as pictures and videos often are? I ask why don't you take that dispute up
with the editor in question?

Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no context
to this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content dispute.

Please explain why this is relevant to the gender gap, since you are
sending it out to everyone on the gender gap mailing list, and secondly,
why a minor content dispute on enwiki is relevant to the  Wikimedia gender
gap community as a whole.
On Nov 30, 2014 1:47 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing one
 (I've checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway

 Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward

 ...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue?

 In particular this comment:
 ...As has been indicated on the talk page of the proposed decision,
 *repeatedly,* there is some question as to exactly *which* women this
 group seems to be reaching out toward, specifically, whether it is more or
 less of a more or less radical feminist perspective

 I thought it summed up in a nutshell what the GGTF was really up against.
 It's a kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
 * Are you now or have you ever been a feminist who believes that sex work
 is the opposite of feminism?
 Anyone who answers yes that question is judged to be a radical, a
 subversive who wants to push POV and therefore they are fair game.

 On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of categories of
 feminist
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=544136790
 and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to
 organize it chronologically and it meant that anti-pornography feminists,
 anti-prostitution feminists and socialist feminists could go onto the
 list
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feministsoldid=545667727

 The list has recently been changed to this:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with a
 couple of editors to see how we can improve it further.

 I've largely avoided trouble by sticking to admin based work such as this,
 and similar work:
 Cleaning up bibliographies, e.g. Joseph Schumpeter, from this:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeteroldid=633566034#Major_works
 to this:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeteroldid=634343909#Major_works

 Creating an article for the International Association for Feminist
 Economics
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_Feminist_Economics
  and improving the article for the Human Development and Capability
 Association
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_and_Capability_Association
 then creating biographies for past presidents of IAFFE and fellows of the
 HDCA.
 Adding DOBs to notable scholars and then adding them to Wiki's calendar
 (births).

 These organisations / individuals argues against sex work on the grounds
 of the perception of women that is generated (i.e. as a thing / object).
 The problem with the MRA, pro-porn, pro-sex work POV is they have no
 problem with anti-porn etc. POV provided it is in a box labelled mad or
 religious with a sub-text that the only people that could possibly
 support that POV are from the moral right and are probably racist and
 homophobic as well. The other problem that the MRA have is that, human
 development and capability, which includes feminist economics / inequality
 / care work etc. collectively constitutes a 'single broad topic'
 (WP:SPATG), so they are unable to stop editors, who wish to edit in this
 area, from doing so. The natural place for this work is within the Gender
 Studies project. Which is why they write nonsense like this:
 http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fighting-wikipedia-corruption-censorship/
 (if there were really the kind of censorship that they are talking about on
 WP then there would be no Pornography Project).

 Any attempt to show 3 distinct POVs
 (a) Pro-sex work
 (b) Right-wing anti-sex work (on moral / judgemental grounds), and
 (c) Left-wing anti-sex work (on negative perception grounds) - the POV
 that dare not speak its name
 ... is met with a steel fist hammered onto the table.

 I made a video for use in the article sex wars, an article which is all
 about the separation between (b) and (c)
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Feminist_sex_warsoldid=546995190
 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Feminist_sex_wars.ogv
 It was deleted instantly on the grounds that the Video makes little
 sense and does not add to

Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

2014-11-27 Thread JJ Marr

From the terms of use


We reserve the right to suspend or end the services at any time, with or
without cause, and with or without notice.

On Nov 27, 2014 10:34 AM, regu...@gmail.com regu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I dont think its illegal, its just that it doesnt have any legal standing
 at all. The terms of use used to have a condition for it yearsvago but that
 was removed.



 Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device





 -- Original message--

 *From: *JJ Marr

 *Date: *Thu, Nov 27, 2014 10:25 AM

 *To: *Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation of women within Wikimedia projects.;

 *Subject:*Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF



 ArbCom isn't illegal. I have no idea how you'd be able to appeal an online
 pseudotribunal to an actual court. It baffles the mind, especially since
 they provided clear rationale and the WMF is allowed to associate with
 whoever they want. I'm fairly sure that the hypothetical case would
 probably be dismissed extremely quickly.
 On Nov 27, 2014 3:13 AM, Jim Hayes slowki...@gmail.com wrote:

 yes ,
 i would say that arbcom might be unaware of how negatively it will be
 viewed
 clearly newyorkbrad was angling for block both sides,
 to make it easier to block the unblockable
 and the majority appears to have tilted in one direction.
 keep in mind that a life ban worked real well on betacommand

 as for new regimen of non-appealable civility blocks
 i'll believe it when i see it, just as when i will believe Jimbo Wales'
 talk at wikimania.

 at this late date, it is show me - soft is hard.
 we can plan a culture change, off wiki if necessary, but the revanchism
 will be ugly.


 On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 It's noteworthy that they are not non-appealable blocks.  I honestly
 don't think this is beyond the scope of the list, although it's certainly a
 depressing topic.  Allowing severe gendered slurs to be bandied about with
 essentially no penalty is likely something that is going to decrease the
 participation of women on ENWP - which is not a good thing.  I know there's
 been some debate in the past about whether or not ENWP specific issues are
 appropriate for this list, but I believe this is a large enough one to be.

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman

 On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case 
 danc...@frontiernet.net wrote:





 Eric Corbett is going to be under a new regimen of non-appealable
 civility blocks under the aegis of Arbitration Enforcement.

 One wonders if it's really time for someone to just initiate a
 discussion on AN as to whether the community's patience with him is
 exhausted enough to community-ban him indefinitely, regardless of the
 outcome of any ArbCom case. We have done things like this before--after one
 such editor prompted multiple suggestions that he be banned among the many
 opposes he received when he ran for ArbCom with the premise of effectively
 abolishing it by voting against hearing any new cases, I initiated that
 discussion, which led to the editor in question pretty much jumping before
 he was pushed.

 And I say this as someone who has never interacted with him in any
 meaningful way, at least not for years, but sees and hears him increasingly
 discussed as the *one* user who represents all the shortcomings of our
 disciplinary processes. Whether he is a genuinely toxic person or not seems
 to be a matter of some debate, but I think there is no doubt that the
 perception that he is has increasingly mooted that question.

 Of course we could also consider the suggestion Jimmy had in his
 closing speech at Wikimania this year that we deal with toxic people on the
 site who also happen to be good content creators by giving them their own
 wikis where they, and anyone who wanted to work with them, could develop
 and improve whatever content they wanted to.for reimportation. Maybe part
 of the problem is that we offer too limited a choice of

 (And per other emails, this is really beyond the scope of this list, so
 any followups should probably directed to me personally or taken on-wiki.
 Besides I don't want to ruin anyone's Thanksgiving, regardless of whether
 you celebrate it or not--we all deserve a break).

 Daniel Case

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Re: [Gendergap] previous (structural) collaboration withorganisations on women's history?

2014-11-19 Thread JJ Marr

I agree. You have to enter into a hostile environnent, which is very
traumatizing towards women.
On Nov 19, 2014 5:50 PM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com wrote:


 When you work in a university, you frequently receive proposals that want
 students (and sometimes academics) to be free labour for some worthy (or
 not-so-worthy cause) without much regard to how the student benefits in
 terms of their program of study. As much as I am personally committed to
 Wikipedia and to feminism, if someone had approached me in my university
 with such a proposal, I would have said that it might be reasonable to
 expect a student in a writing or digital communications course to
 contribute
 to Wikipedia (or Facebook or ...) as part of that course, but that I would
 need to see a much stronger case for it in a course about feminism.

 Would you regard it as reasonable if a driving instructor required their
 students to contribute to Wikipedia articles on road safety as a condition
 of receiving their driver's license? Or a doctor required Wikipedia
 articles
 before providing treatment? Why is it any different for a student to be
 required to write Wikipedia articles?

 Offering students the *alternative* of writing for Wikipedia in lieu of a
 traditional essay assignment would be a far more acceptable proposal. But I
 would expect someone competent in Wikipedia would be available to provide
 those students with the skills to do so (but I assume this is the
 intention). And I would see nothing wrong with inviting students in a
 feminist course to participate in a feminist edit-a-thon or similar
 activity
 so long as it was clear it was independent to their studies (i.e. no
 coercion).

 Kerry



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Re: [Gendergap] [arbcom-appeals-en] [Child Protection Policy]Gender Gap issues

2014-11-18 Thread JJ Marr

Personal attacks are not permitted on Wikipedia.
On Nov 18, 2014 2:37 PM, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dear Mr. Davies

 From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee#Members
 I observe you are an inactive Member of this alleged committee. I
 hence suspect that your email is bogus.

 Accordingly I would appreciate receiving a signed email, or even a
 scanned signed email clearly given on behalf of the Arbitration
 Committee listing its physical address for service of legal process.

 I am shocked by the casual and secretive approach adopted to such
 concerns of child pornography, especially when it was previously made
 on another website http://wikipediocracy.com, naming 2 of your users
 Sitush and Bishonen using sexually colored language and referring
 to child pornography on your website. This Sitush is a serial stalker
 and harasser of female Wikipedia editors as your Arbcom knows well..

 It is certainly strange that I was blocked as a sock puppet at the
 instance of these same 2 users (1 of whom is your Admin) when I
 brought that message to their attention.  It seems Wikipedia actively
 discourages reporting such sexual harassment to Admins and wipes out
 all trace of it from public gaze, to the extent of terminating the
 account of the person who reported me for being an alleged
 sockpuppet..

 It is even stranger that you will not disclose / specify the multiple
 accounts and IPs I am accused of using as an alleged sock puppet or
 why I am accused of being an India Against Corruption sockpuppet when
 I have never edited any page concerned with that body. It is very
 strange that Arbcom will not comply with its own policies for this. .

 It is clear that the Arbcom is covering up the actions of its
 anonymous users implicated in child pornography by another website.

 I urge you to reconsider as I firmly intend to pursue this matter and
 investigate all your own antecedents on your inactions..

 On 11/19/14, Roger Davies roger.davies.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Romana Busse:
 
  This is to acknowledge receipt of your emails of yesterday and today.
 
  The Arbitration Committee is unable to assist you further in this
  matter. Any further communications should be sent to:
 
  le...@wikimedia.org
 
  Roger Davies
  Arbitration Committee
 
 
 
  On 18/11/2014 15:41, Romana Busse wrote:
  Dear Anthony (AGK)
 
  I'm very sorry to bother you, but could I have a timeline with respect
  to deletion, or not, of those images ?
 
  With the welfare of the children in mind, I feel that the school, the
  children's parents and the local child welfare committees, magistrates
  and police should be properly sensitized  to the incidents of that
  day, and to ensure it cannot reoccur
 
  I'm sure the police and the Indian Govt Cyber Advisory Committee would
  be interested in learning from you or NYBrad  the finer points of law
  whereby Citizendium encyclopedia decides to completely wipes out the
  images within 12 hours but Wikipedia has not done anything till now on
  identical complaint.
 
  I would also like to know by when you will publish across all
  Wikipedia projects the complete list of accounts and IPs I have
  allegedly used, and also if I am a sockpuppet of User:MehulWB as
  alleged or not. This is required by your same policy WP:SOCK under
  which was blocked.
 
  Thanks
 
  On 11/18/14, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com wrote:
  This is about a potential threat to clearly identifiable Indian minor
  school children whose images are retained on WMF servers in USA and
  India despite legal notice to remove them.
  Taken within their school (where their parents expected the same
  degree of privacy as they enjoy at home) and uploaded without their
  permission, consent or knowledge, at a location where they allegedly
  viewed grossly obscene pornography accessed on a Wikimedia Foundation
  service which has now been disabled on complaint by a body called
  [[India Against Corruption]].
 
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Re: [Gendergap] Essay by Bryce on how male Wikipedians can be better participants re: gender gap/women

2014-10-27 Thread JJ Marr

I swear I read this before
On Oct 27, 2014 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote:

 https://genderdesk.wordpress.com/category/bryce-peake/



 --

 Sarah Stierch

 -

 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

 www.sarahstierch.com

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Re: [Gendergap] UN Gender Equality conference only invites men

2014-10-09 Thread JJ Marr

So do you agree or disagree with the conference?

On October 9, 2014 10:20:51 PM EDT, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net 
wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/oct/06/men-only-un-conference-gender-equality-if-only-it-was-a-joke?CMP=fb_gu

I can't believe how the author tries to make excuses for them...




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Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

Re: [Gendergap] previous (structural) collaboration withorganisations on women's history?

Re: [Gendergap] [arbcom-appeals-en] [Child Protection Policy]Gender Gap issues

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