Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
Hello,
I certainly meant no disrespect. Indeed, that's why I am on this mailinglist.
And I look forward to the time when a larger group from this list can meet,
even if I don't drink beer myself :-)
Best wishes,
Lennart
Lennart Guldbrandsson,
Tfn: 031 - 12 50 48 Mobil: 070 - 207 80 05
Epost: l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com / lenn...@wikimedia.se
Användarsida: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%C3%A4ndare:Hannibal
Blogg: http://mrchapel.wordpress.com/
Wikimedia Sverige http://wikimedia.se
http://www.1av3.se
From: fraz...@bigpond.com
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:15:40 +1100
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
Hello Lennart,
Thank you for your reply. You made no errors. I was
explaining the feminist take on the word 'lady'. I was not sure that you were
joking by using the term, so I attempted to eliminate the factors which would
normally point to it being a joke. Hence my examination of exclamation
markings,
etc. Had we spoken about this face to face our normal body language would have
clearly indicated we were speaking lightheartedly; boasting our prowess on this
matter over a glass of wine, so to speak. Black words on white screen
backgrounds lack those important nuances. However, thank you for the
extrapolation on the different words.
It is not bad phrasing; I fully understand that it is not
bad phrasing. My response to your email was simply about 'choice'; that is
which
words we choose to use and their impact on society. As we are talking on a
'Gendergap' page I thought it appropriate and reasonable to discuss this point,
but in replying to you I took my explanation to the world of the feminist
thinker, and perhaps that is not appropriate for this list.
Wow, I am stoked, thank you so much for understanding the
simply put discussion about 'male' vs 'female'. Not too many people stop to
think that our constructed formatting follows male-gendered lines, that
is, in the example given, the word 'male' always prominent while
'female' requires another click of the drop down. Today a
similar inequality is still evident in many of our documents, for
example, our own Rules of Association speak in terms of 'he'. 'She' is
taken for granted as read where 'he' appears in various clauses of the
document. Another example, if I may detain you just a little longer, is
our federal and State legislation here in Australia. Up
to the recent past it was always written in terms of the male gender, and
in present recent decades our legislators introduced Acts of
parliament to guide the adoption of plain speech in legislation, and encourage
the introduction of 'non-gender specific language', in an effort, inter alia,
to recognise that nowadays in legislation it is considered to be
discriminatory when the syntax uses only one gender. Your comment: 'to make
the genders equally prominent' is a commendable thought indeed. Thank
you.
Kind regards,
Anne
- Original Message -
From:
Lennart Guldbrandsson
To: Gendergap
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:06
PM
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure
which is more depressing
Hello,
First of all, let me explain that English is not my
native language. Sometimes that means that I make errors in grammar or
spelling. In this case, however, that is not the issue. I know the linguistic
value of the term lady. In Swedish, we have a similar distinction between
dam ('lady') and kvinna ('woman').
Then we come to the real cause:
the term find the lady is not my invention. It's a stock phrase, that
specifically refer to a game, that is also called three card monte, as you
can see in the article I linked to. In this context, trying to use image
galleries to point out that we have a lack of women as editors, three card
monte would have made a meaningless reference. I could have used other
phrases, such as cherchez la femme (which is more sinister, I feel), or
OMG, there's a woman on the interwebs (which is even less respectful, and
less common), but as an example, I think I got the point across. I apologize
if you felt that it was a bad phrasing.
I too dislike any programming
designs that use male as the standard. I do not think, though, that we should
make female the standard, either. It would make for many false positives (we
know that people don't read all the instructions before clicking yes),
which
would make it appear that we suddenly have 95 % new female editors. What we
should do is make the genders equally prominent, if that is not the case
already.
Best wishes,
Lennart
Lennart
Guldbrandsson,
Tfn: 031 - 12 50 48 Mobil: 070 - 207 80 05
Epost:
l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com / lenn...@wikimedia.se
Användarsida:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%C3%A4ndare:Hannibal
Blogg:
http://mrchapel.wordpress.com/
Wikimedia Sverige
http://wikimedia.se
http://www.1av3.se
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
On 12/21/11 6:41 AM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: This discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Becritical#Please_don.27t_encourage_bigotry. This guy is notorious. This person shouldn't even be in the community for their behavior. It's painful to read and makes *me* not want to participate in Wikipedia, for godsake. I'm sorry you got thrown under the bus, as well. It's people like this that scare the crap out of me in regards to me retaliating or saying anything. I feel like they'll be placing an Arbcom request against ME, instead of someone against THEM. or this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#File:Wikipedia_Change_The_Ratio_Logo.jpg Yeah, thus far I'm the only woman who chimed in on it. Someone brought it to my attention last night just as I was preparing to go to bed. Suffice to say I had to distract myself with other things to get it off my mind. Obviously just a troll being, well, a troll, and a bunch of dude-ness. I do think it's interesting that one guy mentions third gender, as I'm wondering if he's referring to [[third sex]] or if he's just creating the concept of those who do not identify their gender in their preferences are the new Wikipedia third gender. I understand not everyone sits around and reads statistical data about women, Wikimedia, open source communities, etc, but, it's really weird that in a community that /relies/ on citations and statistical data, that they repeatedly deny/dimiss the concept of the gender gap, throw it to the wayside and think its either not a problem or not worth mentioning. How many times do I have to have this conversation? I also acknowledge that everyone has their own individual experience. While I've had remarkable and terrible experiences in the community, I realize some women have had nothing but awesome experiences, some men have had sexist experiences, and that everyone has could end up on both sides of the victim/non-victim spectrum. But, I also know that if we have 100 examples of painful, terrible, frightening experiences, we have a problem. We have one of these stories, we have a problem, but, unfortunately communities like this need 100 of them to make anyone take notice or make change. And change is comin', baby. Someone does state that everyone is just sitting around and whining and not taking action. Perhaps they need to become a bit more aware about the actions that some of us within the community are taking. Whether it's WMF's decision to explore options to close the gap, or the UK and Girl Geeks, the planning conference, the Ada Initiative, etc. Perhaps I should invite them to this list. :P And I keep saying If you want to talk about this, I look forward to talking about it with you at Wikimania, and then they all get scared and run into the corner. Perhaps they fear the wrath, but hey, if you're going to say it on Wikipedia...say it to my face! Hell, attend Wikimania and I think you'll notice..helloo gender gappp Sarah [[User:SarahStierch]] en.wp ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: And I keep saying If you want to talk about this, I look forward to talking about it with you at Wikimania, and then they all get scared and run into the corner. Perhaps they fear the wrath, but hey, if you're going to say it on Wikipedia...say it to my face! Hell, attend Wikimania and I think you'll notice..helloo gender gappp I wish I could afford to come to Wikimania. -- Michael J. Orange Mike Lowrey When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes. -- Desiderius Erasmus ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
Wikimania offers hundreds (?) of thousands of dollars in grant money - that's the only way I could afford (and still can afford) to go. That includes housing and most Wikimania's provide food and drinks too :) If you submit a talk proposal and it's accepted it's an even better reason for getting a grant. So people have no excuses! I'd love to see Wikimania GenderGap-L happy hour!! :-) Sarah Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Dec 21, 2011, at 8:37 AM, Michael J. Lowrey orangem...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: And I keep saying If you want to talk about this, I look forward to talking about it with you at Wikimania, and then they all get scared and run into the corner. Perhaps they fear the wrath, but hey, if you're going to say it on Wikipedia...say it to my face! Hell, attend Wikimania and I think you'll notice..helloo gender gappp I wish I could afford to come to Wikimania. -- Michael J. Orange Mike Lowrey When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes. -- Desiderius Erasmus ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:17:32 -0800 From: sarah.stie...@gmail.com To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing I understand not everyone sits around and reads statistical data about women, Wikimedia, open source communities, etc, but, it's really weird that in a community that relies on citations and statistical data, that they repeatedly deny/dimiss the concept of the gender gap, throw it to the wayside and think its either not a problem or not worth mentioning. How many times do I have to have this conversation? Sarah [[User:SarahStierch]] en.wp ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap Perhaps the solution is to create a gendergap template, instead of having to bring up the same points over and over. Best wishes, Lennart Lennart Guldbrandsson, Tfn: 031 - 12 50 48 Mobil: 070 - 207 80 05 Epost: l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com / lenn...@wikimedia.se Användarsida: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%C3%A4ndare:Hannibal Blogg: http://mrchapel.wordpress.com/ Wikimedia Sverige http://wikimedia.se http://www.1av3.se ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com wrote: Perhaps the solution is to create a gendergap template, instead of having to bring up the same points over and over. I think we should have a re-usable collage of all the photos of meetups attended (almost) exclusively by male Wikipedians. with the caption Notice anything missing?. Sometimes pictures are more persuasive than text. -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing
Yes, that is a good idea. Here are plenty of pics to choose from: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_meetups Best wishes, Lennart Lennart Guldbrandsson, Tfn: 031 - 12 50 48 Mobil: 070 - 207 80 05 Epost: l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com / lenn...@wikimedia.se Användarsida: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%C3%A4ndare:Hannibal Blogg: http://mrchapel.wordpress.com/ Wikimedia Sverige http://wikimedia.se http://www.1av3.se From: e...@wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:33:40 -0800 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] I'm not sure which is more depressing On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com wrote: Perhaps the solution is to create a gendergap template, instead of having to bring up the same points over and over. I think we should have a re-usable collage of all the photos of meetups attended (almost) exclusively by male Wikipedians. with the caption Notice anything missing?. Sometimes pictures are more persuasive than text. -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
