Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Neotarf]

Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went
down?  I really need to read something like that right now.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>>
>> That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
>> harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
>> should say.
>>
>
> Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins,
> functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't
> think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an
> accurate thing to tell people.
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

You linked to a discussion on the ideas lab which you stated included 26
people speaking out against sexual harassment. Most of those people are not
indeffed or sanctioned in any way.  Many of them are administrators or hold
other permissions.

Risker

On 29 September 2015 at 08:25, Neotarf  wrote:

> Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went
> down?  I really need to read something like that right now.
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
>>> harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
>>> should say.
>>>
>>
>> Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became
>> admins, functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I
>> don't think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would
>> be an accurate thing to tell people.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

Once again this is an area which needs research and numbers, starting 
with looking at all the complaints and even mentions of harassment at 
WP:ANI and WP:Arbitration for say the last 5 years.  If I wasn't busy 
catching up on my own projects, I'd help any of the researchers who have 
come by here or been mentioned.  Those who have more time and really 
care SHOULD contact these people and get them to organize just such a 
project. I know this is a good project because the couple times I 
brought it up the harassers went nuts...


Finding public complaints to admins obviously more difficult and finding 
private complaints nearly impossible. But ANI is a place to start.


To say that everyone who has spoken out against their own personal 
harassment or that against another has been indeff'd obviously is not 
correct.


To say that three people who engaged in Gender Gap Task Force 
discussions and objected strongly to the organized disruption of that 
group by others were indeff'd would be true.  Did they sometimes 
over-react to some of the nonsense, harassment and false accusations 
made by the organized group against the task force and themselves? Yes. 
 But those doing these things were NOT punished while those who 
objected were indeff'd.


That's enough for most people to think that anyone who isn't a skilled 
politician who never loses their temper - and who has enough support 
from friendly admins - WILL get indeff'd if they speak out too loud, too 
proud or too often...


Also, I shouldn't complain about what the harassment policy is without 
at least offering an alternative here... may when I catch upon my own 
thing and recover from burnout...


On 9/29/2015 11:57 AM, Nathan wrote:



On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf > wrote:

Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they
went down?  I really need to read something like that right now.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan > wrote:



Hi Neotarf,

I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject
to harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from
most or all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a
functionary, admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is
likely that she has been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some
point during her Wikimedia tenure.

But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of
this type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted
in ways that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but
I don't think that is typical.


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Francesca Tripodi]

Hi All -

I wanted to take a quick second and introduce myself. My name is Francesca
Tripodi and I'm working on my dissertation in Sociology/Media Studies. I'm
looking specifically at participatory media spaces (Reality TV, Yik Yak,
and Wikipedia) and a strong theme emerging in my cases are how various
media technologies "silence" some in the community of users while making
others visible. I look at harassment as a tool for silencing but also how
other mechanisms are used to block voice. This issues of being "indeffed"
for publicly objecting to sexual harassment is particularly interesting. I
didn't know that was happening or even was "indeffed" was until just now!

That being said - If anyone would like to speak with me personally (outside
of this thread!) regarding their experiences editing Wikipedia and how it
relates to harassment or "blocking" I'd love the opportunity to speak with
you. I have been conducting interviews using Google Hangout or Skype but I
can also conduct by phone or in person if you're in the DC area.
Interviews last
approximately one hour and the content of the interviews are kept
confidential.

I am not using any of the email content as data - I just enrolled in the
listserve so I could learn more about the Gender Gap on Wikipedia and reach
out to Wikipedians who might be interested in participating in my research.
For those who might take concern, this project has been approved by the
Institutional Review Board at the University of Virginia.

Sincerely -
Francesca
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Nathan]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf  wrote:

> Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went
> down?  I really need to read something like that right now.
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan  wrote:
>
>>
>>
Hi Neotarf,

I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject to
harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from most or
all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a functionary,
admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is likely that she has
been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some point during her
Wikimedia tenure.

But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of this
type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted in ways
that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but I don't
think that is typical.
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

 I am surprised to discover that you believe I have been  indeffed.

Perhaps you need to redefine what you are talking about.  There are dozens
of people on this list, and plenty of others on that page you just linked,
who have objected publicly to sexual harassment but have never been blocked
or sanctioned, let alone indeffed.  Please stop spreading such nasty memes.
It is hurtful.

Risker

On 28 September 2015 at 20:20, Neotarf  wrote:

> @Risker: "I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread
> have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
> additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death
> threats?"
>
> Answer: 26.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_harassment_reporting
>
> That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
> harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
> should say.
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Carol Moore dc  > wrote:
>
>> On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
>>
>>> anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the
>>> problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is
>>> something common on wikipedia, anger management is something
>>> surprisingly ignored.
>>>
>>
>> Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're
>> discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those I
>> got, and found:
>> *Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info so
>> easily found on the internet
>> *Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me
>> *Only one a few days later saying "you will die"
>> *Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations
>> *265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite
>> *84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who
>> started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending through
>> the wikipedia system until he stopped)
>>
>> I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't
>> feel like uploading and searching...
>>
>> On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be
>> dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have
>> JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected vs.
>> non-verified users after that.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc=history=2011=8=
>>
>> Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from
>> guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed.
>> Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...
>>
>> So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and
>> escalating steps you can take would help...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on it
>> that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. Still
>> have a copy...
>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Nathan]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> @Risker: "I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread
> have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
> additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death
> threats?"
>
> Answer: 26.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_harassment_reporting
>
> That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
> harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
> should say.
>
>

Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins,
functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't
think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an
accurate thing to tell people.

I think Kerry's post sort of misses the point. No one will argue that even
"joke" death threats are acceptable or fine; there just is no point in
wasting police resources by reporting "threats" that turn out to be joke
memes or totally unserious. The police realize this and ignore most
threats; unfortunately, they don't have any reliable method for sorting out
the 1 threat in a million that represents real danger.
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Neotarf]

@Risker: "I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread
have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death
threats?"

Answer: 26.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_harassment_reporting

That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
should say.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
>
>> anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the
>> problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is
>> something common on wikipedia, anger management is something
>> surprisingly ignored.
>>
>
> Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're discussing
> here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those I got, and
> found:
> *Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info so
> easily found on the internet
> *Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me
> *Only one a few days later saying "you will die"
> *Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations
> *265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite
> *84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who
> started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending through
> the wikipedia system until he stopped)
>
> I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't
> feel like uploading and searching...
>
> On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be
> dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have
> JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected vs.
> non-verified users after that.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc=history=2011=8=
>
> Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from
> guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed.
> Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...
>
> So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and
> escalating steps you can take would help...
>
>
>
>
> And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on it
> that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. Still
> have a copy...
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Kerry Raymond]

Unfortunately, death threat jokes are like airport bomb jokes, best not 
uttered. Even if they are part of a Steve Martin comedy routine, if you don’t 
get the joke, you are receiving a threat or others misread it as a threat. 
Clearly getting a joke depends on a shared cultural knowledge (I’ve never heard 
of this Steve Martin line either) and in a worldwide multi-cultural 
multilingual organisation, shared culture can’t be assumed. It’s like the use 
of swear words which may not be offensive in some cultures but are in others. I 
think we do have discourage the use of jokes just as we should discourage the 
use of swear words or words that may have unintended interpretations in some 
cultures. Obviously most people when they make their original statement 
probably have no ill intent, just unaware how it might be misinterpreted. But I 
think after you let people know that certain words are likely to give offence 
in some quarters and they persist in using them, you have to suspect the 
offence is intended or they are simply arrogant people indifferent to the 
impact on their remarks (either of which is a reason to be taking action 
against them). But I don’t think we should belittle the concern of those who 
received what seems to them as a threat or offensive remark. “Die you …” is 
something to remove from our vocabularies, even in jest. We should not be 
saying “silly you for not recognising it was a joke ”.

 

As regards the police, the Internet is a major jurisdictional problem. If one 
Wikipedia user makes a death threat against another on-wiki or via email, which 
police do you call? The San Francisco police are unlikely to be interested in 
threats if neither party are in SF. I think you do need to go via the 
Foundation to get whatever real world information they can provide in terms of 
real names or locations derived from IP addresses etc. Even then,  the 
information will often be insufficient to determine real world identities at 
which point I think the police will lose interest very rapidly. Police have to 
prioritise and it must be difficult for them to see the point of investigating 
internet threats (even if there is evidence the parties may be within their 
jurisdiction) over threats being traded between next door neighbours where 
there is a clear response that they can make by sending a police car around to 
“have a word”. Would/should Wikipedia policies allow an equivalent response? 
That is, allow the creation of an account called “Queensland Police” and then 
for that account to go to a User Talk page and say “Queensland Police here – 
stop those threats or else we’ll prosecute you under Section 123 of the 
Whatever Act” accompanied perhaps by a photo of a police car with flashing 
lights? 

 

Kerry

 



 

From: Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Risker
Sent: Sunday, 27 September 2015 6:30 AM
To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation 
of women within Wikimedia projects. <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

 

Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have 
characterized as a death threat over the years.  Nasty as it may be to say "rot 
in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain 
to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin 
comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've 
blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent 
abuse via the "email this user" interface.  

Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF 
instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone 
seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna 
jump off a bridge".  They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to 
verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with 
enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links 
to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc).  And it 
is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough 
of an example there.  

Risker/Anne

 

On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER <rupert.thur...@gmail.com 
<mailto:rupert.thur...@gmail.com> > wrote:

risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the 
wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or 
para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia 
community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special 
rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally. 

 

carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay 
taxes and at the end of the day you a

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

On 9/27/2015 1:49 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:

anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the
problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is
something common on wikipedia, anger management is something
surprisingly ignored.


Just in case people don't understand what kind of threats we're 
discussing here I just pulled up the 2011 messages, about half of those 
I got, and found:
*Several introductory ones saying they knew where I lived because info 
so easily found on the internet

*Around 100 calling me a bitch and saying they'd murder me
*Only one a few days later saying "you will die"
*Another hundred calling me a stupid whore and making nasty accusations
*265 only called me a spineless leftist hypocrite
*84 calling me a whore and accusing me of having sex with the admin who 
started somehow interrupting his emails (which he continued sending 
through the wikipedia system until he stopped)


I have another 500 odd in another file from a year or so later but don't 
feel like uploading and searching...


On wikipedia, 8/11/11 there was a relatively tame one predicting I'd be 
dead "12 months from now". It was removed but I kept the JPG. Don't have 
JPGs for other ones that were removed that day. My pages were protected 
vs. non-verified users after that. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc=history=2011=8=


Like I've said, having put up with nonsense - and death threats - from 
guys already since 1990 online, I wasn't scared just really annoyed. 
Especially knowing some people WOULD be scared by this sort of thing...


So a clear statement not to get upset and know there are clear and 
escalating steps you can take would help...





And then there was the gif of me being beaten to death with my name on 
it that lasted on wikicommons a couple days before it was taken down. 
Still have a copy...


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[George Herbert]

Ahh, the essay that keeps on giving *preen*.

George William Herbert
Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 26, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Risker  wrote:
> 
> Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and 
> similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go 
> shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture 
> situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities 
> because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding the link probably 
> did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd 
> be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was 
> linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the 
> shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].  
> 
> I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about 
> harassment.  
> 
> Risker/Anne
> 
>> On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf  wrote:
>> @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you mean to 
>> link to something else?
>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc  
>>> wrote:
>>> Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got 
>>> directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to 
>>> remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I 
>>> decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
>>> 
>>> I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the 
>>> harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay 
>>> that specifically advises this!
>>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122
>>> 
>>> Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some 
>>> well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the 
>>> foundation for even minor issues...
>>> 
>>> There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but 
>>> zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe space, NOT!!*
>>> 
>>> Thanks...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> CM
>>> 
>>> *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual 
>>> direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity 
>>> now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone 
>>> might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't 
>>> politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
>>> 
>>> A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and 
>>> hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of 
>>> some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties.  
>>> It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and 
>>> legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want 
>>> to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
>>> 
>>> Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more.  
>>> Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on 
>>> Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my 
>>> writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me 
>>> all over Wikipedia ;-)
>>> 
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go
shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding the
link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking
personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was
harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note
that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
harassment.

Risker/Anne

On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf  wrote:

> @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you mean
> to link to something else?
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc 
> wrote:
>
>> Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got
>> directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to
>> remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I
>> decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
>>
>> I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the
>> harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay
>> that specifically advises this!
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122
>>
>> Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some
>> well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the
>> foundation for even minor issues...
>>
>> There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but
>> zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe space, NOT!!*
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>>
>> CM
>>
>> *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from
>> actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of
>> hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion
>> that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just
>> aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
>>
>> A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and
>> hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of
>> some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties.
>> It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and
>> legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want
>> to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
>>
>> Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more.
>> Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on
>> Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my
>> writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me
>> all over Wikipedia ;-)
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread have
publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death
threats?

There was an annual plan posted for about three days of community comment
back in May/June.  Did anyone in this thread say "wait a minute, we think
you have your priorities wrong here"?

I'm a little stunned that several people including those with years of
activism under their belts would think that complaining on a mailing list
that is at most hosted by the WMF (and certainly not controlled by it or
monitored by it) would result in changes.  The English Wikipedia community
can't tell WMF staffers what to do: we're not their employers, we don't set
their objectives or their job descriptions, and so on.  The lack of
additional resources comes right from the top here.  If you want it, you
need to be telling the Board, you need to be telling the ED, and you need
to be telling the Senior Director of Community Engagement, Luis Villa.
This list isn't gonna do it.  Posting on Wikipediocracy is the equivalent
of throwing coins in a well.  Focus your attention on the people who have
control of the money and persuade them this is something more important
than...I don't know, whether notifications are flagged using one tag or
two...

Risker/Anne

On 26 September 2015 at 16:29, J Hayes  wrote:

> rupert,
> i and carol have a somewhat different experience with the police. it is
> unclear if i would trust them to keep identity confidential. WMF should act
> regardless of legal status. this merry go round of not providing clear
> lines of responsibility and action (other than round file) is part of the
> systemic problem.
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:07 PM, rupert THURNER 
> wrote:
>
>> risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for
>> the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
>> para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
>> community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
>> rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
>>
>> carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you
>> pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
>> usually very welcoming?
>>
>> rupert
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:
>>
>>> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
>>> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
>>> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
>>> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
>>> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
>>> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
>>> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>>>
>>> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
>>> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
>>> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
>>> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
>>> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
>>> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
>>> team) to cover the entire world.
>>>
>>> Risker/Anne
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a
 known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
 because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
 various others many times before.

 In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
 evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
 the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
 abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
 system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
 to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)

 As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
 real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
 recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
 the Foundation to sort it out.

 That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does
 that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and
 women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.


 I wrote:

 On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:

> Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide 

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
often are) blocked by volunteers.

I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org" is
for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there
is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because
there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is
staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to
cover the entire world.

Risker/Anne


On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known
> Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
> because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
> various others many times before.
>
> In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
> evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
> the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
> abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
> system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
> to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
>
> As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
> real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
> recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
> the Foundation to sort it out.
>
> That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that
> evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women
> are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
>
>> Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
>> similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
>> go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
>> capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
>> authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
>> the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
>> Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
>> was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
>> threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
>>
>> I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
>> harassment.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf > > wrote:
>>
>> @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
>> mean to link to something else?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
>> threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
>> system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
>> opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
>> article mentioned that option.
>>
>> I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015
>> that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link
>> to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122
>>
>> Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain
>> some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle
>> with the foundation for even minor issues...
>>
>> There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal
>> action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe
>> space, NOT!!*
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>>
>> CM
>>
>> *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space
>> from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd
>> degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger
>> warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and
>> protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct
>> enough... but don't get me started...
>>
>> A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities
>> and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can
>>

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[J Hayes]

rupert,
i and carol have a somewhat different experience with the police. it is
unclear if i would trust them to keep identity confidential. WMF should act
regardless of legal status. this merry go round of not providing clear
lines of responsibility and action (other than round file) is part of the
systemic problem.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:07 PM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the
> wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
> para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
> community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
> rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
>
> carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you
> pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
> usually very welcoming?
>
> rupert
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
>> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
>> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
>> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
>> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
>> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
>> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>>
>> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
>> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
>> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
>> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
>> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
>> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
>> team) to cover the entire world.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a
>>> known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
>>> because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
>>> various others many times before.
>>>
>>> In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
>>> evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
>>> the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
>>> abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
>>> system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
>>> to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
>>>
>>> As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
>>> real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
>>> recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
>>> the Foundation to sort it out.
>>>
>>> That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that
>>> evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women
>>> are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
>>>
 Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
 similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
 go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
 capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
 authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
 the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
 Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
 was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
 threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

 I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
 harassment.

 Risker/Anne

 On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf > wrote:

 @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
 mean to link to something else?

 On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
 > wrote:

 Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
 threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
 system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
 opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
 article mentioned that option.

 I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Isarra Yos]

A lot of online threats, including death/rape threats, aren't really 
worth taking seriously. They're just talk, rude-arse and not even 
remotely productive, but still just the sort of dumbarse talk some 
people try to do to bully folks. Blocking them is indeed reasonable, as 
they are unlikely to actually act on it anyway, and there isn't apt to 
be anything for the police to really act on either.


Mind you, if they give some indication of actually having the means 
required to pull it off, like by including the target's actual address 
and pictures of a bunch of guns they just bough or something crazy like 
that, that's another matter entirely, and may indeed be cause to go to 
the police. Personally I've not seen any of that, but it does happen 
from time to time some places.


On 26/09/15 20:07, rupert THURNER wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for 
the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military 
or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the 
wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal 
systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal 
with it professionally.


carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? 
you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, 
and are usually very welcoming?


rupert

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker > wrote:


The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death
threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the
majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators
by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. 
If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I

don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking
the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are)
blocked by volunteers.

I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including
serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the
"emerge...@wikimedia.org " is for
threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
there is concern that police or other authorities should be
informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind
that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people
(the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.

Risker/Anne


On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc
> wrote:

I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come
from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a
person who is known because it's the same kind of message they
have been known to send to various others many times before.

In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation
email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps
others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the
Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's
an anonymous person through another email system, it's a
different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to
help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)

As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless
it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it
would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the
police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to
sort it out.

That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who
does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are
doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without
telling anyone why.


I wrote:

On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:

Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide
threats and
similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g.,
"I'm going to
go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline
is intended to
capture situations where there is a reason to contact
police or similar
authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The
person adding
the link probably did not really read through the point of
the page.
Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I
complained that someone
was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting
suicide
threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not
really about
harassment.

Risker/Anne

 

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

I'll be happy to see a lot of the information and reasoning explained in 
the harassment document, including first encouraging people to contact 
an administrator. (Identifying administrators who are experienced in the 
topic would help too.)


Reasons one might not immediately contact police - unless the guy is 
basically outside your door- have been explained above. Like not having 
enough details to satisfy them or their not taking it very seriously 
anyway, unless they are outside the door.  And then some will always be 
fearful that such a complaint will lead to a search of their own 
computers for the evidence there was a crime and they don't want the 
govt snooping around in there (any more than it may already be without 
their knowing about it).


My main goal is better guidance on Wikipedia.

On 9/26/2015 4:38 PM, Risker wrote:

I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread have
publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as
death threats?

There was an annual plan posted for about three days of community
comment back in May/June.  Did anyone in this thread say "wait a minute,
we think you have your priorities wrong here"?

I'm a little stunned that several people including those with years of
activism under their belts would think that complaining on a mailing
list that is at most hosted by the WMF (and certainly not controlled by
it or monitored by it) would result in changes.  The English Wikipedia
community can't tell WMF staffers what to do: we're not their employers,
we don't set their objectives or their job descriptions, and so on.  The
lack of additional resources comes right from the top here.  If you want
it, you need to be telling the Board, you need to be telling the ED, and
you need to be telling the Senior Director of Community Engagement, Luis
Villa.  This list isn't gonna do it.  Posting on Wikipediocracy is the
equivalent of throwing coins in a well.  Focus your attention on the
people who have control of the money and persuade them this is something
more important than...I don't know, whether notifications are flagged
using one tag or two...

Risker/Anne


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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Neotarf]

@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you mean
to link to something else?

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got
> directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to
> remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I
> decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option.
>
> I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the
> harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay
> that specifically advises this!
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122
>
> Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some
> well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the
> foundation for even minor issues...
>
> There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but
> zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe space, NOT!!*
>
> Thanks...
>
>
> CM
>
> *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual
> direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity
> now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone
> might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't
> politically correct enough... but don't get me started...
>
> A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and
> hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of
> some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties.
> It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and
> legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want
> to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")
>
> Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more.
> Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on
> Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my
> writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me
> all over Wikipedia ;-)
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Carol Moore dc]

I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a 
known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is 
known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send 
to various others many times before.


In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and 
evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. 
At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover 
such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another 
email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation 
was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)


As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY 
real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only 
recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going 
to the Foundation to sort it out.


That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that 
evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and 
women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.



I wrote:

On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:

Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
harassment.

Risker/Anne

On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf > wrote:

@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
mean to link to something else?

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
> wrote:

Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
article mentioned that option.

I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015
that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link
to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122

Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain
some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle
with the foundation for even minor issues...

There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal
action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd...  Safe
space, NOT!!*

Thanks...


CM

*Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space
from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd
degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger
warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and
protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct
enough... but don't get me started...

A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities
and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can
understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be
exposed to the most extreme varieties.  It also gives the most
oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands
for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to
mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!")

Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups
any more.  Especially now that I am finally free of having to be
a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment
mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without
worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)

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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[rupert THURNER]

anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the
problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something
common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored. i
never read about it in a mailing list, and i do not know a single person in
the movement being expert in it. there are texts like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_angry_mastodons,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_hot
which
do not really address anger. i tried to search for links with the keywords
"draw your anger", see below.

one of the links which came up is a book called "Helping Your Kids Deal
with Anger, Fear, and Sadness". let me cite a couple of sentences: "anger
is an emotion, aggression is an action. many confuse anger with aggression
... when we do not understand our anger and allow it to get out of control,
it can lead to aggressive behaviors that are sinful, dangerous, and even
deadly. the emotion of anger itself is not the problem ... the real problem
is the mismanagement and misunderstanding of the emotion." "Anger: a
secondary emotion: ... emotions that most frequently precede anger fear,
hurt, frustration." " give them both a way of venting their anger .. when
you've got your anger out, we'll talk about it"

*
https://books.google.ch/books?id=crqTOLr1CQwC=PA73=PA73=draw+your+anger#v=onepage=draw%20your%20anger

* http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsVq5R_F6RA

rupert


On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Risker  wrote:

> Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have
> characterized as a death threat over the years.  Nasty as it may be to say
> "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge
> to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a
> Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to
> say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions
> when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.
>
> Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the
> WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY
> take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia
> that he's gonna jump off a bridge".  They want to hear it from someone who
> has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can
> provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g.,
> IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been
> suppressed, etc).  And it is rare for police to take email threats
> seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER 
> wrote:
>
>> risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for
>> the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
>> para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
>> community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
>> rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
>>
>> carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you
>> pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
>> usually very welcoming?
>>
>> rupert
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:
>>
>>> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
>>> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
>>> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
>>> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
>>> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
>>> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
>>> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>>>
>>> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
>>> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
>>> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
>>> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
>>> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
>>> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
>>> team) to cover the entire world.
>>>
>>> Risker/Anne
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a
 known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
 because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
 various others many times before.

 In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
 evidently 

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[rupert THURNER]

risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the
wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.

carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay
taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
usually very welcoming?

rupert

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:

> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>
> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
> team) to cover the entire world.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
> wrote:
>
>> I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known
>> Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
>> because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
>> various others many times before.
>>
>> In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
>> evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
>> the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
>> abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
>> system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
>> to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
>>
>> As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
>> real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
>> recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
>> the Foundation to sort it out.
>>
>> That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that
>> evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women
>> are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
>>
>>
>> I wrote:
>>
>> On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
>>
>>> Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
>>> similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
>>> go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
>>> capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
>>> authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
>>> the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
>>> Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
>>> was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
>>> threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
>>>
>>> I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
>>> harassment.
>>>
>>> Risker/Anne
>>>
>>> On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
>>> mean to link to something else?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
>>> threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
>>> system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
>>> opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
>>> article mentioned that option.
>>>
>>> I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015
>>> that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link
>>> to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this!
>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment=672630056=672391122
>>>
>>> Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain
>>> some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle
>>> with the foundation for even minor issues...
>>>
>>> There's a huge section on what to do about 

Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Risker]

Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have
characterized as a death threat over the years.  Nasty as it may be to say
"rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge
to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a
Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to
say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions
when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.

Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the
WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY
take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia
that he's gonna jump off a bridge".  They want to hear it from someone who
has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can
provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g.,
IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been
suppressed, etc).  And it is rare for police to take email threats
seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.

Risker/Anne

On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the
> wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
> para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
> community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
> rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
>
> carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you
> pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
> usually very welcoming?
>
> rupert
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
>> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
>> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
>> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
>> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
>> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
>> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>>
>> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
>> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
>> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
>> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
>> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
>> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
>> team) to cover the entire world.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a
>>> known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
>>> because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
>>> various others many times before.
>>>
>>> In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
>>> evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
>>> the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
>>> abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
>>> system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
>>> to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
>>>
>>> As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
>>> real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
>>> recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
>>> the Foundation to sort it out.
>>>
>>> That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that
>>> evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women
>>> are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
>>>
 Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
 similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
 go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
 capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
 authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
 the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
 Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
 was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
 threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

 I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about