[Gendergap] men on lists

[Kathleen McCook]

There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues
that affect them so, yes, men on a  list like this can undermine its
purpose.

--Kathleen

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Risker  wrote:
> I'm sorry Derric, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that
> many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators)
> simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance of
> providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily
> limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from continuing to
> communicate with them.
>
> The focus on technology here is very important.  Right now, there is no way
> for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails,
> or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and
> continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling.  There's never, to my
> knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features.  We
> keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system
> called "Flow"  to replace talk pages.  Features that allow users to control
> who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual
> threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure
> they're even under consideration.
>
> And I'm going to be honest - I've seen more people blocked for "homophobic"
> comments than "misogynistic" ones.
>
> Nemo, your "Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well." is really
> unhelpful and dismissive - and is pretty much exactly the kind of statement
> that Violet Blue is talking about in her article.  It comes across as "She
> wrote something I didn't agree with in the past, so there's no reason to
> ever pay attention to her again". I am really hoping you didn't intend that.
>
> And Carol has a point.  There are now more men posting to this thread than
> there are women.  And most of you have missed the point entirely.  Heaven
> help us from those who see themselves as our saviours.
>
> Risker
>
>
> On 23 June 2014 09:57, Derric Atzrott  wrote:
>>
>> >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34:
>> >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email
>> >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started
>> >> hassling them about it.
>> >> SURPRISE!!
>> >
>> > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading
>> > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
>> > women.
>> >
>> > Nemo
>>
>> Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this
>> discussion is
>> going.  Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all
>> here?
>>
>> From the Mailing list signup page:
>> "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation
>> of
>> women within Wikimedia projects.
>>
>> Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in
>> Wikipedia
>> and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is
>> provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to
>> collectively
>> address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are
>> focused
>> on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a
>> starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of
>> women
>> and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia,
>> Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage
>> you
>> to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this
>> regard matter to us and to the community."
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Derric Atzrott
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Derric Atzrott]

> I'm sorry Derric, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that
> many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators)
> simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance of
> providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily
> limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from continuing to
> communicate with them.

My email was an attempt to bring us back to that topic and diffuse what I, at
least in my head, had expected to turn into a situation that I felt
uncomfortable with, and that I felt others on the list (men and women both)
would.

> There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues
> that affect them so, yes, men on a  list like this can undermine its
> purpose.

This is a discussion I would be glad to have.  Just not the way it looked like
it was going to happen.

Again, I'm really sorry if I offended anyone.  I was genuinely trying to make
sure that we didn't have a situation crop up that I thought would really make
everyone uncomfortable.  Instead I seem to have just buggered things up more.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Risker]

Derric, if I may suggest - the best way to get a mailing list back on topic
is to write to the topic, not to remind people of the rules.


Risker/Anne


On 23 June 2014 11:49, Derric Atzrott  wrote:

> > I'm sorry Derric, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that
> > many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators)
> > simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance
> of
> > providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily
> > limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from
> continuing to
> > communicate with them.
>
> My email was an attempt to bring us back to that topic and diffuse what I,
> at
> least in my head, had expected to turn into a situation that I felt
> uncomfortable with, and that I felt others on the list (men and women both)
> would.
>
> > There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues
> > that affect them so, yes, men on a  list like this can undermine its
> > purpose.
>
> This is a discussion I would be glad to have.  Just not the way it looked
> like
> it was going to happen.
>
> Again, I'm really sorry if I offended anyone.  I was genuinely trying to
> make
> sure that we didn't have a situation crop up that I thought would really
> make
> everyone uncomfortable.  Instead I seem to have just buggered things up
> more.
>
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Ok, I shouldn't have said "two women" but "two members", the gender was 
unimportant.


Risker, 23/06/2014 18:02:

Derric, if I may suggest - the best way to get a mailing list back on
topic is to write to the topic,


Sure, and of course the topic is throwing judgements on who missed the 
point:


Risker, 23/06/2014 17:26:
> There are now more men posting to this thread than there are women.  And
> most of you have missed the point entirely.  Heaven help us from those
> who see themselves as our saviours.

Agreed. You for instance.
Time for me to unsubscribe and delete 35 MB of hatred from my hard disk.
Bye bye,
Nemo

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Carol Moore dc]

On 6/23/2014 11:45 AM, Kathleen McCook wrote:

There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues
that affect them so, yes, men on a  list like this can undermine its
purpose.

--Kathleen


FYI, for those who want to read the early archives, they are linked from 
the bottom

link - they start here:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-February/date.html


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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Derric Atzrott]

Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta 
thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to explain 
and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.

This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on 
Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.  Like 
there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I am 
just really awful at not coming off that way via email.  I'd like to work on 
that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make the 
environment better are and in specific myself.  I think a polite discussion of 
what just happened would help advance all of those goals.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Valerie Aurora]

Hi Derric,

This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
ally skills.

To be crystal clear: you will not be helping women in Wikipedia by
continuing to ask for help from anyone on this list or centering
yourself in the discussion.

-VAL

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Derric Atzrott
 wrote:
> Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta 
> thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to 
> explain and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.
>
> This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on 
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.  Like 
> there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I 
> am just really awful at not coming off that way via email.  I'd like to work 
> on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make 
> the environment better are and in specific myself.  I think a polite 
> discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those goals.
>
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
>
>
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-- 
Valerie Aurora
Executive Director

You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture!
Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Kevin Gorman]

Hi all -

Speaking as one of the list moderators, I unfortunately don't always have
time to proactively reach out to problematic members, or even to read all
list traffic on a timely basis at all times.  (For instance, because I'm in
the process of setting up a new house - I haven't read the thread that this
thread is about fully, although I intend to do so shortly.)  I would like
to state that I agree with Val's last email (and thank you, Val, for
sending it out.)  If there is a problematic situation that the list
moderators have missed (which are currently me, Sue Gardner - who tends to
be busy enough to not be an active moderator, and Liz Kent,) I would
encourage anyone concerned about it to bring it to our direct attention by
emailing one of us individually, or by emailing
gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org, which will email all three of us.  If
you are interested in becoming a moderator, I'd also invite you to email us
- unfortunately, since Cynthia passed, we're down one moderator from where
we normally are.

I can't speak of the moderation of other lists, but from memory, this list
has had around four people removed or moderated for making misogynistic
comments, one person removed for the combination of making anti-male
comments and generally problematic behavior (the person in question, after
being called out on their original comments, spammed the list moderators
with seven or eight completely profanity filled emails,) two people removed
for general assholery/generally disruptive behavior, and a number of other
people warned privately who subsequently improved their behavior.  Of the
people who have been removed or moderated, probably three of them have
involved proactive action taken by the list mods, and the rest have been
pointed out to us at times when we were ourselves not keeping up with all
list traffic.  We're the most proactively moderated Wikimedia list as far
as I know, but given the special nature of this list, I think all of us
would be more than open to moderating more aggressively.

I'll try to pay more attention to this list than I have been over the last
few months, and will try to take a more proactive moderation stance.  At
the same time, if I do miss someone's problematic behavior, I'd encourage a
list member to point it out to me (or another mod) and not assume that I
don't consider the behavior problematic.  An overwhelming majority of the
time, I'll agree that the behavior is problematic once it's pointed out to
me - I probably just hadn't seen it yet because I often run low enough on
spoons to be unable to keep up with listserv traffic in real time.

Anyway... afk to go read the thread that started this thread.

Best,
Kevin Gorman


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Valerie Aurora 
wrote:

> Hi Derric,
>
> This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
> skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
> know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
> working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
> step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
> ally skills.
>
> To be crystal clear: you will not be helping women in Wikipedia by
> continuing to ask for help from anyone on this list or centering
> yourself in the discussion.
>
> -VAL
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Derric Atzrott
>  wrote:
> > Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of
> meta thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to
> explain and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.
> >
> > This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.
>  Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but
> apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email.
>  I'd like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this
> list can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself.  I
> think a polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of
> those goals.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Derric Atzrott
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
> --
> Valerie Aurora
> Executive Director
>
> You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and
> culture!
> Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Carol Moore dc]

On 6/24/2014 4:02 PM, Kevin Gorman wrote:
 If there is a problematic situation that the list moderators have 
missed (which are currently me, Sue Gardner - who tends to be busy 
enough to not be an active moderator, and Liz Kent,) I would encourage 
anyone concerned about it to bring it to our direct attention by 
emailing one of us individually, or by emailing 
gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org 
, which will email all 
three of us.  If you are interested in becoming a moderator, I'd also 
invite you to email us - unfortunately, since Cynthia passed, we're 
down one moderator from where we normally are.
I do encourage another woman to volunteer who can encourage women to 
speak out and not let guys get out of line as in 2012ish period. I'm a 
bit too ... too...  myself, so best I merely post : - )


CM
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[phoebe ayers]

On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Valerie Aurora 
wrote:

> Hi Derric,
>
> This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
> skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
> know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
> working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
> step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
> ally skills.
>

This response seems a bit harsh to me; the list may not be about
communication skills in general, but good communication is certainly a part
of learning to be a good ally, and thus seems to fall within our discussion
remit.

Derric is a good contributor to our projects, who is confused about why
what he thought was a reasonable and explanatory comment was taken amiss. I
don't particularly think we should rehash why it was taken amiss; no good
will come out of people feeling like they are forced to justify their
feelings. But, the overall topic of why some explanatory comments are
helpful and others aren't would be interesting to me. In particular, this
topic is interesting to me because the Wikimedia world is a world of people
who really, really love to explain things (myself certainly included). We
would not likely not be in the business of writing an encyclopedia etc if
we didn't all enjoy sharing information and explanations and data -- and
yes, opinions.

* Sometimes, being an "explainer" is a really positive trait: when a
newcomer comes asking for help on how to do something, and they get help.
* Sometimes, it's problematic: when a newcomer comes asking for help, and
they get talked down to because they're not already part of the culture, or
treated badly because they don't already know the rules ("your article is
being deleted because of CSD:A5").
* Sometimes, it's a positive trait: when in a discussion people are willing
to consider new data, or focus on substance rather than who is making the
point.
* Sometimes: it's a negative trait: when in a discussion people voice an
opinion, and they get contradicted by someone else who has a different view
or wants to explain an argument but is also not really listening to the
comment being made.

I would be interested in coming up with strategies for how to channel this
trait that many of us (of both genders!) have -- of being thoughtful but
also deeply focused on logic and explanations -- for good on the projects.
How can we all learn how to be supportive and helpful, including when we
don't understand or disagree with someone, or when someone we're
interacting with doesn't have this same trait?

-- phoebe (who overexplains things as a librarian, too!)
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Marie Earley]

Since you've asked Derric... 

When you posted your message, "Can we please steer it back on topic and 
remember why we are all here?" 
- I was ready to steam in as I misinterpreted it.

I thought that - as a response to Carol's comment that women get hassled here 
and quit the list - you were saying, "We're not supposed to be talking about 
women getting hassled, we're supposed to be talking about why women leave." (I 
was going to say, "but they left precisely BECAUSE they were being hassled".)

Fortunately I read your next message in time not to steam in. 

Perhaps instead of:
> "Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion 
> is going.  Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all 
> here?"

...something along the lines of,
> "I'm sure there are lots of examples people could give of poor behaviour on 
> this list. Since the purpose of this list is "...discussing solutions and 
> exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender 
> equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the 
> impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free 
> knowledge movement'." then perhaps we should discuss measures that would 
> tackle such poor behaviour."

Also if you ask a white artist to paint a picture of a man they will most 
likely paint a picture of a white man. If you ask a black artist to paint a 
picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a black man. Neither 
are being racist. It's worth remembering that men - no matter how progressive 
or forward thinking - experience the world as men and women experience the 
world as women. 

There's a well known workplace experiment where a group of men are put in one 
room and given a task and a group of women are put in another room and given 
the same task. The women invariably put everything on the coffee table in front 
of them, lean forward, and work collaboratively. Meanwhile in the men are 
choosing someone who will lead them, Mr Alpha Male then goes and stands by the 
white board taking ideas from the room. Neither room is being sexist, it is 
just how the respective genders like to work. 

I also can't help but notice that solutions being put forward seem to be of the 
latter, male orientated 'from-the-top-down' variety. 

Marie

> From: datzr...@alizeepathology.com
> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 13:05:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
> 
> Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta 
> thread for what just happened?  I have further questions and things to 
> explain and get feedback on.  I can start another thread if wanted.
> 
> This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on 
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.  Like 
> there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I 
> am just really awful at not coming off that way via email.  I'd like to work 
> on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make 
> the environment better are and in specific myself.  I think a polite 
> discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those goals.
> 
> Thank you,
> Derric Atzrott
> 
> 
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Marielle Volz]

>If you ask a black artist to paint a picture of a man they will most
likely paint a picture of a black man.

A tangent- but this is not strictly true! See:
http://mediadiversified.org/2013/12/07/you-cant-do-that-stories-have-to-be-about-white-people/


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Marie Earley  wrote:

> Since you've asked Derric...
>
> When you posted your message, "Can we please steer it back on topic and
> remember why we are all here?"
> - I was ready to steam in as I misinterpreted it.
>
> I thought that - as a response to Carol's comment that women get hassled
> here and quit the list - you were saying, "We're not supposed to be talking
> about women getting hassled, we're supposed to be talking about why women
> leave." (I was going to say, "but they left precisely BECAUSE they were
> being hassled".)
>
> Fortunately I read your next message in time not to steam in.
>
> Perhaps instead of:
>
> > "Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this
> discussion is going.  Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why
> we are all here?"
>
> ...something along the lines of,
> > "I'm sure there are lots of examples people could give of poor behaviour
> on this list. Since the purpose of this list is "...discussing solutions
> and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve
> gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and
> reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons,
> and the 'free knowledge movement'." then perhaps we should discuss measures
> that would tackle such poor behaviour."
>
> Also if you ask a white artist to paint a picture of a man they will most
> likely paint a picture of a white man. If you ask a black artist to paint a
> picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a black man.
> Neither are being racist. It's worth remembering that men - no matter how
> progressive or forward thinking - experience the world as men and women
> experience the world as women.
>
> There's a well known workplace experiment where a group of men are put in
> one room and given a task and a group of women are put in another room and
> given the same task. The women invariably put everything on the coffee
> table in front of them, lean forward, and work collaboratively. Meanwhile
> in the men are choosing someone who will lead them, Mr Alpha Male then goes
> and stands by the white board taking ideas from the room. Neither room is
> being sexist, it is just how the respective genders like to work.
>
> I also can't help but notice that solutions being put forward seem to be
> of the latter, male orientated 'from-the-top-down' variety.
>
> Marie
>
> > From: datzr...@alizeepathology.com
> > To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 13:05:00 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
>
> >
> > Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of
> meta thread for what just happened? I have further questions and things to
> explain and get feedback on. I can start another thread if wanted.
> >
> > This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.
> Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but
> apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email. I'd
> like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list
> can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself. I think a
> polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those
> goals.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Derric Atzrott
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
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>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Kevin Gorman]

te artist to paint a picture of a man they will most
> likely paint a picture of a white man. If you ask a black artist to paint a
> picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a black man.
> Neither are being racist. It's worth remembering that men - no matter how
> progressive or forward thinking - experience the world as men and women
> experience the world as women.
>
> There's a well known workplace experiment where a group of men are put in
> one room and given a task and a group of women are put in another room and
> given the same task. The women invariably put everything on the coffee
> table in front of them, lean forward, and work collaboratively. Meanwhile
> in the men are choosing someone who will lead them, Mr Alpha Male then goes
> and stands by the white board taking ideas from the room. Neither room is
> being sexist, it is just how the respective genders like to work.
>
> I also can't help but notice that solutions being put forward seem to be
> of the latter, male orientated 'from-the-top-down' variety.
>
> Marie
>
> > From: datzr...@alizeepathology.com
> > To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 13:05:00 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
>
> >
> > Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of
> meta thread for what just happened? I have further questions and things to
> explain and get feedback on. I can start another thread if wanted.
> >
> > This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on
> Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended.
> Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but
> apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email. I'd
> like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list
> can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself. I think a
> polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those
> goals.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Derric Atzrott
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
> ___
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> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Valerie Aurora]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM, phoebe ayers  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Valerie Aurora 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Derric,
>>
>> This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication
>> skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you
>> know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people,
>> working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first
>> step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on
>> ally skills.
>
>
> This response seems a bit harsh to me; the list may not be about
> communication skills in general, but good communication is certainly a part
> of learning to be a good ally, and thus seems to fall within our discussion
> remit.

Hi Phoebe,

Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
LinuxChix in 2002.

A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
time and energy.

The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had
found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists
were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
could talk about Linux.

In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to
providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in
supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is
much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could
be used much more effectively on other projects.

-VAL

-- 
Valerie Aurora
Executive Director

You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture!
Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Carol Moore dc]

Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some 
of us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if 
it's against our own interests... sigh...


On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:


Hi Phoebe,

Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
LinuxChix in 2002.

A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
time and energy.

The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had
found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists
were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
could talk about Linux.

In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to
providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in
supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is
much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could
be used much more effectively on other projects.

-VAL




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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Pine W]

Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've
stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space
without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space
without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one
employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees
of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as
a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia
context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social
network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I
would say go for it.

Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the
most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at
what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told
the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the
women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful
that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite
myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the
opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me
into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess
they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of
invitation!

Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and
supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth
trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants
programs stand ready to hear requests. (:

Pine


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some of
> us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if it's
> against our own interests... sigh...
>
> On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Hi Phoebe,
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
>> perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
>> spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
>> LinuxChix in 2002.
>>
>> A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
>> a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
>> men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
>> improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
>> requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
>> women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
>> and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
>> time and energy.
>>
>> The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
>> original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
>> portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
>> who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
>> interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
>> IRC channel became primarily about counseling various men who had
>> found a welcoming and supportive environment, and our mailing lists
>> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
>> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
>> could talk about Linux.
>>
>> In short, I agree with you that there is some potential benefit to
>> providing free social skills counseling to men who are interested in
>> supporting women in open tech/culture. In my experience, the cost is
>> much greater: the time and emotional energy of many women that could
>> be used much more effectively on other projects.
>>
>> -VAL
>>
>>
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Moriel Schottlender]

I understand all the reasons, but I must disagree on a couple of points*.

I think it might have to do with me having a different experience with
these topics, but while I do agree that there's absolutely a great
advantage of having a women-only space, I also think that it is
context-dependent.

I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the gendergap issues in
Wikipedia without engaging the men. I can also see how some men really want
to help but are unaware of the depth of the problems at hand, so I don't
see a problem with dedicating one or two threads to talking about it.

Then again, that's also why I prefer forums over lists; in forums, you can
have these types of discussions and people can choose which discussion to
go and read and which to ignore and never get into. Much harder to do in an
email lists. But I digress.

I think that there could be a huge benefit of a more closed or restricted
women-only group and that group can serve as both a place to feel
comfortable in (which is VERY important) and a place to brainstorm without
fear of argumentative responses.

*But* since this specific mailing list is public, I think we should
definitely consider the fact that having men -- and, yes, sometimes
spending the energy of explaining (or creating a boilerplate response if
these cases start being overwhelming) might actually work for our benefit.
I'm thinking about men who don't really "get it" but want to, who try to
understand but don't notice that they're stuck in the same issues we're
trying to improve.

If we don't handle those situations, we will lose the allies we *have* to
have in order to commit realistic changes in the community.

Moriel

* Oh noes, argumentativeness!




On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've
> stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space
> without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space
> without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one
> employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees
> of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as
> a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia
> context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social
> network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I
> would say go for it.
>
> Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the
> most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at
> what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told
> the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the
> women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful
> that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite
> myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the
> opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me
> into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess
> they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of
> invitation!
>
> Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and
> supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth
> trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants
> programs stand ready to hear requests. (:
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some
>> of us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if
>> it's against our own interests... sigh...
>>
>> On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora wrote:
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Hi Phoebe,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully explained comment! The
>>> perspective I am coming from here is over 13 years of experience with
>>> spaces for supporting women in open tech/culture, starting with
>>> LinuxChix in 2002.
>>>
>>> A pattern that groups like this have found over and over again is that
>>> a spaces designed to support women in these areas inevitably attract
>>> men with poor social skills, who then ask the group for (unpaid) help
>>> improving their social skills. In most open tech/culture groups, such
>>> requests would be unthinkable, but we are often socialized to expect
>>> women to provide emotional support and help to others (especially men
>>> and children) on request, without consideration for the value of their
>>> time and energy.
>>>
>>> The result is that, without a strong awareness and guarding of the
>>> original purpose of the group, the group dedicates an ever-larger
>>> portion of its time to teaching men social skills. Many of the people
>>> who are interested in the original purpose of the group tend to lose
>>> interest and depart. This is exactly what happened to LinuxChix - our
>>> IRC 

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Pine W]

Hi Moriel and others,

Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community?

I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki or
on Wikimedia-l is good enough or that people are being hypersensitive, so I
get the sense that there's a lot of agreement that we have a cultural
problem. Ideas for solutions seem to be in short supply, so any "realistic
changes" that you can suggest would be good to hear, either on this list or
in IdeaLab.

If there are issues other than civility and the occasional trolling, I
think it would be good to have a list of those. Then everyone can be
looking at the same set of problems and be thinking about how to address
them.

Our current IEG grantee for research on female editing, Mssemantics
(Amanda), may have something to say, although she may want to wait until
she feels she has adequate data from her research.

In any case, I'm going to encourage Mssemantics to participate on the
discussion on this list or at least listen to it.

Pine


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Moriel Schottlender 
wrote:

> I understand all the reasons, but I must disagree on a couple of points*.
>
> I think it might have to do with me having a different experience with
> these topics, but while I do agree that there's absolutely a great
> advantage of having a women-only space, I also think that it is
> context-dependent.
>
> I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the gendergap issues in
> Wikipedia without engaging the men. I can also see how some men really want
> to help but are unaware of the depth of the problems at hand, so I don't
> see a problem with dedicating one or two threads to talking about it.
>
> Then again, that's also why I prefer forums over lists; in forums, you can
> have these types of discussions and people can choose which discussion to
> go and read and which to ignore and never get into. Much harder to do in an
> email lists. But I digress.
>
> I think that there could be a huge benefit of a more closed or restricted
> women-only group and that group can serve as both a place to feel
> comfortable in (which is VERY important) and a place to brainstorm without
> fear of argumentative responses.
>
> *But* since this specific mailing list is public, I think we should
> definitely consider the fact that having men -- and, yes, sometimes
> spending the energy of explaining (or creating a boilerplate response if
> these cases start being overwhelming) might actually work for our benefit.
> I'm thinking about men who don't really "get it" but want to, who try to
> understand but don't notice that they're stuck in the same issues we're
> trying to improve.
>
> If we don't handle those situations, we will lose the allies we *have* to
> have in order to commit realistic changes in the community.
>
> Moriel
>
> * Oh noes, argumentativeness!
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Valerie's interesting comments are in line with one of the reasons I've
>> stayed off of this list in the past. I am ok with women having a space
>> without men around, just like I feel men should be able to have a space
>> without women around. I'm familiar with a workplace where at least one
>> employee lounge is female-only, and considering that many of the employees
>> of both genders have union representation, I suppose that the employees as
>> a whole support having that lounge be the way it is. In the Wikipedia
>> context, if some women wanted to have a supportive email list or social
>> network group only for women, where women could talk in relative privacy, I
>> would say go for it.
>>
>> Interestingly, I was invited, completely sight unseen and with only the
>> most basic of introductions from a third party, to attend an edit-a-thon at
>> what I believe was a female-focused software engineering workspace. I told
>> the person who invited me that I was uncomfortable with stepping into the
>> women's space, and she assured me that as long as people are respectful
>> that everything would be ok. I'm not the type of male who would invite
>> myself to an event like that, nor do I plan on setting up workshops for the
>> opposite gender. I thought it was remarkably open of the women to invite me
>> into their space, especially knowing relatively little about me. I guess
>> they felt safety in numbers? I'm not used to getting that kind of
>> invitation!
>>
>> Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private and
>> supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an idea worth
>> trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and the grants
>> programs stand ready to hear requests. (:
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Carol Moore dc 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for excellent comments below. Let's keep them in mind. Even some
>>> of us "tough chicks" still can get sucked into the "helper" role even if
>>> it's against our own interests... sigh...
>>>
>>> On 7/2/2014 6:33 PM, Valerie Aurora w

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Carol Moore dc]

On 7/3/2014 1:40 AM, Pine W wrote:



Anyway, if some of the WikiWomen want to set up a relatively private 
and supportive space just for WikiWomen, I'd say that sounds like an 
idea worth trying. If there is some need for resources, IdeaLab and 
the grants programs stand ready to hear requests. (:


Pine

FYI, on a related note 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop_for_Women does exist 
with general principles, links to relevant resources and to past women 
workshops. (Lots in india have their own pages.)  I worked on a lot 
couple years ago but it need updating now. (My sample workshop probably 
way too detailed for intro and needs to be scrapped or adjusted as a 
second workshop.)


CM

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Amanda Menking]

Our current IEG grantee for research on female editing, Mssemantics (Amanda), 
may have something to say, although she may want to wait until she feels she 
has adequate data from her research.

In any case, I'm going to encourage Mssemantics to participate on the 
discussion on this list or at least listen to it.

Thanks for thinking of me, Pine. I’ve been lurking on this list for quite some 
time. I posted about my IEG—asking for feedback and for interview/focus group 
participants—but, otherwise, I’ve kept quiet.

Pine is right: I’d rather have adequate data before I contribute. Thus far, 
I’ve interviewed 18 Wikipedians who edit EN and self-identify as women. I’d 
like to do several more interviews and a few focus groups—with all genders as I 
believe it’s important to have representation of different opinions, 
perspectives, and stories. I also plan to do a thematic analysis of the 
archives of this mailing list to understand better how the community has 
constructed the story of the gender gap, asking whether this list has been a 
safe, cooperative space or a site of conflict (or both—as it most likely has 
been from what I’ve seen) and how that struggle has been handled, etc. I’ll be 
looking at program evaluations of editing events geared toward addressing the 
gender gap, user’s edit counts, etc.

So, yes, more data. :)

However, I will say that, thus far, what I’ve heard, seen, read, etc. points 
toward cultural problems—some aided and abetted by policies, some aided and 
abetted by underlying technologies. Although my project is called “Women and 
Wikipedia,” I’m also concerned with how the dominant culture on EN may be 
discouraging participation amongst those (all genders) who aren’t part of it.

I’ll have much more to say—including some design suggestions—after 
November/December. But, for now, thank you for the privilege of listening. 
Please, anyone, feel free to reach out to me personally if you’d like to chat, 
too.

Best,
Mssemantics/Amanda

From: Pine W mailto:wiki.p...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the 
participation of women within Wikimedia projects." 
mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>>
Date: Thursday, July 3, 2014 at 1:50 AM
To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation 
of women within Wikimedia projects." 
mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

Hi Moriel and others,

Do you have a list of "realistic changes" in mind for the community?

I hear almost no one say that the typical state of (in)civility on wiki or on 
Wikimedia-l is good enough or that people are being hypersensitive, so I get 
the sense that there's a lot of agreement that we have a cultural problem. 
Ideas for solutions seem to be in short supply, so any "realistic changes" that 
you can suggest would be good to hear, either on this list or in IdeaLab.

If there are issues other than civility and the occasional trolling, I think it 
would be good to have a list of those. Then everyone can be looking at the same 
set of problems and be thinking about how to address them.

Our current IEG grantee for research on female editing, Mssemantics (Amanda), 
may have something to say, although she may want to wait until she feels she 
has adequate data from her research.

In any case, I'm going to encourage Mssemantics to participate on the 
discussion on this list or at least listen to it.

Pine


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Moriel Schottlender 
mailto:mor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I understand all the reasons, but I must disagree on a couple of points*.

I think it might have to do with me having a different experience with these 
topics, but while I do agree that there's absolutely a great advantage of 
having a women-only space, I also think that it is context-dependent.

I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the gendergap issues in Wikipedia 
without engaging the men. I can also see how some men really want to help but 
are unaware of the depth of the problems at hand, so I don't see a problem with 
dedicating one or two threads to talking about it.

Then again, that's also why I prefer forums over lists; in forums, you can have 
these types of discussions and people can choose which discussion to go and 
read and which to ignore and never get into. Much harder to do in an email 
lists. But I digress.

I think that there could be a huge benefit of a more closed or restricted 
women-only group and that group can serve as both a place to feel comfortable 
in (which is VERY important) and a place to brainstorm without fear of 
argumentative responses.

*But* since this specific mailing list is public, I think we should definitely 
consider the fact that having men -- and, yes, sometimes spending the energy of 
explaining (or creating a boilerplate response if these cases start being 
overwhelmi

Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Valerie Aurora
 wrote:
> and our mailing lists
> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
> could talk about Linux.


Do you have a study backing this statement?


Best

A. Mani



A. Mani
[Last_Name. First_Name Format]
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Leigh Honeywell]

A. Mani,

People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.

-Leigh

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:55 AM, A. Mani  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Valerie Aurora
>  wrote:
>> and our mailing lists
>> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
>> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
>> could talk about Linux.
>
>
> Do you have a study backing this statement?
>
>
> Best
>
> A. Mani
>
>
>
> A. Mani
> [Last_Name. First_Name Format]
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
> HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>
> ___
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-- 
Leigh Honeywell
http://hypatia.ca
@hypatiadotca

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Sarah Stierch]

+1 to Leigh.

Anyone involved with that mailing list (or others, like a few I am on) can
vouch for it.

Sarah
On Jul 3, 2014 11:02 AM, "Leigh Honeywell"  wrote:

> A. Mani,
>
> People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.
>
> -Leigh
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:55 AM, A. Mani  wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Valerie Aurora
> >  wrote:
> >> and our mailing lists
> >> were more enjoyable and fulfilling for men looking for emotional
> >> boosts than for women looking for a supportive environment where they
> >> could talk about Linux.
> >
> >
> > Do you have a study backing this statement?
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > A. Mani
> >
> >
> >
> > A. Mani
> > [Last_Name. First_Name Format]
> > CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
> > HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
> > Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/
> >
> > ___
> > Gendergap mailing list
> > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
>
> --
> Leigh Honeywell
> http://hypatia.ca
> @hypatiadotca
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Leigh Honeywell  wrote:
>
> People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.


I was thinking about a proper documentation of how it has happened -
should be written.
Even I know of instances in techtalk list.



Best

A. Mani



A. Mani
[Last_Name. First_Name Format]
CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/

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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Jane Darnell]

I agree with Moriel in that "I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix
the gendergap issues in Wikipedia without engaging the men." and there is a
Wikimania submission that deals with this:
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/What_male_Wikipedians_can_do_to_help_fix_the_gendergap



On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:19 PM, A. Mani  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Leigh Honeywell  wrote:
> >
> > People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.
>
>
> I was thinking about a proper documentation of how it has happened -
> should be written.
> Even I know of instances in techtalk list.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> A. Mani
>
>
>
> A. Mani
> [Last_Name. First_Name Format]
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
> HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Lennart Guldbrandsson]

Unfortunately, that talk was not accepted to Wikimania, despite quite high 
grades at the reviewing phase :-/ It seems that the gendergap issue instead is 
represented by:

https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Internet_skills_and_the_gender_gap
 

https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Diversity_Workshop:_Gender_gap_strategy_into_action
 

https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Gender_and_Beyond:_Building_Diversity_in_the_Digital_Space
 

and 
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Creative_Ways_to_Alienate_Women_Online:_A_How-to_Guide_for_Wikipedians
 



Best wishes,

Lennart Guldbrandsson

070 - 207 80 05
http://www.elementx.se - arbete
http://www.mrchapel.wordpress.com - personlig blogg


Presentation
@aliasHannibal - på Twitter

"Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri tillgång till 
världens samlade kunskap. Det är vårt mål."


Jimmy Wales

Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:08:25 +0200
From: jane...@gmail.com
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

I agree with Moriel in that "I don't know if we can deal or attempt to fix the 
gendergap issues in Wikipedia without engaging the men." and there is a 
Wikimania submission that deals with this:

https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/What_male_Wikipedians_can_do_to_help_fix_the_gendergap
 


On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:19 PM, A. Mani  wrote:

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Leigh Honeywell  wrote:


>

> People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.





I was thinking about a proper documentation of how it has happened -

should be written.

Even I know of instances in techtalk list.







Best



A. Mani







A. Mani

[Last_Name. First_Name Format]

CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS

HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in

Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/



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Re: [Gendergap] men on lists

[Jane Darnell]

Lennart,
That's too bad. One of the biggest causes of the gendergap is the lack of
reliable sources to move new articles through the Wikipedia "recent changes
page patrol" on any given project. The academic bias inherent in
women-related subjects (and I mean anything from knitting patterns to
health issues) means that it is very hard to locate such material. I have
met time and again very creative male Wikipedians who not only find such
sources, but who can do so quite easily.
Jane


On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson <
l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, that talk was not accepted to Wikimania, despite quite high
> grades at the reviewing phase
> <https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission_review> :-/ It seems
> that the gendergap issue instead is represented by:
>
>
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Internet_skills_and_the_gender_gap
>
>
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Diversity_Workshop:_Gender_gap_strategy_into_action
>
>
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Gender_and_Beyond:_Building_Diversity_in_the_Digital_Space
>
> and
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Creative_Ways_to_Alienate_Women_Online:_A_How-to_Guide_for_Wikipedians
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lennart Guldbrandsson
>
> 070 - 207 80 05
> http://www.elementx.se - arbete
> http://www.mrchapel.wordpress.com - personlig blogg
> Presentation <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%c3%83%c2%a4ndare:Hannibal>
> @aliasHannibal <http://twitter.com/AliasHannibal> - på Twitter
>
> "*Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
> tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
> <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Huvudsida>*. Det är vårt mål.*"
> Jimmy Wales
>
> ----------
> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:08:25 +0200
> From: jane...@gmail.com
> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
>
> I agree with Moriel in that "I don't know if we can deal or attempt to
> fix the gendergap issues in Wikipedia without engaging the men." and there
> is a Wikimania submission that deals with this:
>
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/What_male_Wikipedians_can_do_to_help_fix_the_gendergap
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:19 PM, A. Mani  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Leigh Honeywell  wrote:
> >
> > People's personal experiences don't need studies to back them up.
>
>
> I was thinking about a proper documentation of how it has happened -
> should be written.
> Even I know of instances in techtalk list.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> A. Mani
>
>
>
> A. Mani
> [Last_Name. First_Name Format]
> CU, ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS
> HomePage: http://www.logicamani.in
> Blog: http://logicamani.blogspot.in/
>
> ___
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>
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