Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong. The other source is also from forums, which I also think are considered self-published. Again, I could be wrong in this? On another note, I think it'd be really great to see your families writing documented. Perhaps there are other options for their release into the Wiki world. Perhaps even Commons, by making oral history recordings. I hate being Debbie Downer, I just know that if it's not cited appropriately, it'll be questioned. If someone wants to add the information, go for it. I already did my part to re-write the article, and Fred lent a hand too. :D Sarah On 4/14/2011 3:12 PM, Susan Spencer wrote: Fred, I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting. I don't want to get caught in a shit storm. What I love is what I love, I don't want it spoiled by argument. Plus Danese's article about the car wasn't self-published, so where's the catch? Let it stand... - Susan -- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:48:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net mailto:fredb...@fairpoint.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 40246.66.243.192.69.1302731289.squir...@webmail.fairpoint.net mailto:40246.66.243.192.69.1302731289.squir...@webmail.fairpoint.net Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I gave up in the beginning. I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it. Could someone say again which article and talk page we're discussing? I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the issue. Ditto with the talk page. Sarah Here is the removal of the information about knitting: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 Removed again: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 This is where it was put in: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=prevoldid=341488635 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=prevoldid=341488635 Seems harmless enough, and hardly requires a substantial reference. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap -- Sarah Stierch Consulting Historical, cultural artistic research, advising event planning. -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ http://www.sarahstierch.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Fred, I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting. - Susan Wikibooks for most of that; Wikisource if it's published and in the public domain. You're right to not fight. Plenty of opportunity for that will come along concerning important issues. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 14:21, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong. Sarah, just to let you know that self-published material is allowed as a source in the Wikipedia article about the author of the self-published material (and in some other circumstances too, if the source is an expert). In this case, if Danese has written about the car on her personal website, that can be used as a source in the article about her. The limits of this are, among others, (a) there should be no reasonable doubt that she's the author; (b) the material should not be unduly self-serving (doesn't apply here); and (c) it should not involve discussion of third parties, especially living people -- but discussing her father in this case would be fine. The policy on that is here for future reference -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves Hope this helps, Sarah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVirgin ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
It does! Thanks fellow-Sarah! To be honest, my early editing experiences often make me a more paranoid when writing BLPs, so perhaps I took the rules too seriously myself! Thank you again, a little guidance and clarity always goes a long way :) Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Apr 14, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 14:21, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong. Sarah, just to let you know that self-published material is allowed as a source in the Wikipedia article about the author of the self-published material (and in some other circumstances too, if the source is an expert). In this case, if Danese has written about the car on her personal website, that can be used as a source in the article about her. The limits of this are, among others, (a) there should be no reasonable doubt that she's the author; (b) the material should not be unduly self-serving (doesn't apply here); and (c) it should not involve discussion of third parties, especially living people -- but discussing her father in this case would be fine. The policy on that is here for future reference -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves Hope this helps, Sarah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVirgin ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Maybe I'm missing something - what's her username? Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Susan Spencer susan.spen...@gmail.com wrote: Wikipedia editors, Can someone look into Danese's pages please? She probably wouldn't mind if someone contacted her directly to find out more. - Susan Spencer Conklin -- Forwarded message -- From: Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Knitters and Coders: separated at birth? To: Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com Cc: debian-women debian-wo...@lists.debian.org danese on Ravelry, as in life ;-). I've written quite a lot about knitting in public, although for some reason the Wikipedia community won't leave those references on my page :-(. D On Apr 13, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/4/13 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso jord...@octave.org: This is a cute blog post: http://www.cs4fn.org/regularexpressions/knitters.php I know some of you knit, so perhaps you'll find this amusing. Btw, any Debianistas on Ravelry? I'm JordiGH there. I'm macoafi on Ravelry, and I wrote a blog post about crochet coding reverse engineering a bit ago: http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2010/10/algorithms-reverse-engineering-and.html (more of an Ubuntu person here, but I do maintain a couple Debian packages...) -- Mackenzie Morgan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktinpatheu2snevs+4tmsnbyjtw8...@mail.gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/bf0e13ac-da93-4146-80a6-7888afbed...@gmail.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I gave up in the beginning. I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it. On 4/13/2011 3:15 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: Her wikipedia page is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper and I believe she's referring to the Personal section which has been edited a few times. The most recent time I can see someone putting back the removed knitting references is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=348062767 And the most recent removal is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=386051343 On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Sarah Stierchsa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Maybe I'm missing something - what's her username? Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Susan Spencersusan.spen...@gmail.com wrote: Wikipedia editors, Can someone look into Danese's pages please? She probably wouldn't mind if someone contacted her directly to find out more. - Susan Spencer Conklin -- Forwarded message -- From: Danese Cooperdan...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Knitters and Coders: separated at birth? To: Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com Cc: debian-womendebian-wo...@lists.debian.org danese on Ravelry, as in life ;-). I've written quite a lot about knitting in public, although for some reason the Wikipedia community won't leave those references on my page :-(. -- Sarah Stierch Consulting Historical, cultural artistic research, advising event planning. -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ http://www.sarahstierch.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I gave up in the beginning. I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it. Could someone say again which article and talk page we're discussing? I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the issue. Ditto with the talk page. Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I gave up in the beginning. I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it. Could someone say again which article and talk page we're discussing? I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the issue. Ditto with the talk page. Sarah Here is the removal of the information about knitting: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 Removed again: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=347000261oldid=345360328 This is where it was put in: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperdiff=prevoldid=341488635 Seems harmless enough, and hardly requires a substantial reference. Fred ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
Perhaps I'm just too new to writing BLP's (I've written five so far, and I have spoken with 3 of the artists) ...I don't believe I can use message boards and such to cite as sources. I know I have to limit the self-generated sources I use, such as your blog. While I trust you, maybe the folks on the talk page don't :-/ ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_sources Even if I have ten people confirm with me that you taught them how to knit, the information could very well be removed without the appropriate source citing. This is a learning experience, that's for sure! And I admit, it's a bit surreal writing the BLP for the CTO of Wikimedia. :) On 4/13/2011 3:58 PM, Danese Cooper wrote: Hi there... So, first of all (since Susan who originally posted this didn't know) I'm employed by Wikimedia Foundation. My bio page predates my employment by 6 years, but when I started working for WMF the Community did a make-over on my page and I had to re-prove many facts of my life. This year, on roughly the anniversary of my hire, a deletionist tried to invalidate my bio because it was mostly Open Source folks who had edited it and therefore the deletionist claimed Conflict Of Interest (you can see it all in Discussion and subsequent ArbCom query)...somehow in that fracas, the knitting references were dropped and not replaced...which I think is a pity because when it is there many people ask me about knitting in public and I've been able to get several programmers (of both genders) to learn to knit as a way to deal with attention issues. As a sidenote in case you wish to restore the whole Personal section...here's a better link that explains my Dad really did own a rare Alfa Romeo with my unusual name spelling. http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-382563.html and also http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4406/Nardi-Danese-Alfa-Romeo-Roadster.html Ours was the chassis 948-11, which is described at the bottom of the article. D On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com mailto:maco...@gmail.com wrote: Her wikipedia page is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper and I believe she's referring to the Personal section which has been edited a few times. The most recent time I can see someone putting back the removed knitting references is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=348062767 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=348062767 And the most recent removal is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=386051343 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=386051343 On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Maybe I'm missing something - what's her username? Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Susan Spencer susan.spen...@gmail.com mailto:susan.spen...@gmail.com wrote: Wikipedia editors, Can someone look into Danese's pages please? She probably wouldn't mind if someone contacted her directly to find out more. - Susan Spencer Conklin -- Forwarded message -- From: Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com mailto:dan...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Knitters and Coders: separated at birth? To: Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com mailto:maco...@gmail.com Cc: debian-women debian-wo...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-wo...@lists.debian.org danese on Ravelry, as in life ;-). I've written quite a lot about knitting in public, although for some reason the Wikipedia community won't leave those references on my page :-(. -- Mackenzie Morgan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org mailto:listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTikBJ9NGyF2fzvL5ObKjG-6WEBuH=a...@mail.gmail.com -- Sarah Stierch Consulting Historical, cultural artistic research, advising event planning. -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ http://www.sarahstierch.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper I was able to find a citing source about your knitting, but, I can't use the self-published sources about your dads car. Now, if someone wants to interview you and write that article, then sweet, I can use it =) Sarah On 4/13/2011 3:58 PM, Danese Cooper wrote: Hi there... So, first of all (since Susan who originally posted this didn't know) I'm employed by Wikimedia Foundation. My bio page predates my employment by 6 years, but when I started working for WMF the Community did a make-over on my page and I had to re-prove many facts of my life. This year, on roughly the anniversary of my hire, a deletionist tried to invalidate my bio because it was mostly Open Source folks who had edited it and therefore the deletionist claimed Conflict Of Interest (you can see it all in Discussion and subsequent ArbCom query)...somehow in that fracas, the knitting references were dropped and not replaced...which I think is a pity because when it is there many people ask me about knitting in public and I've been able to get several programmers (of both genders) to learn to knit as a way to deal with attention issues. As a sidenote in case you wish to restore the whole Personal section...here's a better link that explains my Dad really did own a rare Alfa Romeo with my unusual name spelling. http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-382563.html and also http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4406/Nardi-Danese-Alfa-Romeo-Roadster.html Ours was the chassis 948-11, which is described at the bottom of the article. D On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com mailto:maco...@gmail.com wrote: Her wikipedia page is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper and I believe she's referring to the Personal section which has been edited a few times. The most recent time I can see someone putting back the removed knitting references is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=348062767 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=348062767 And the most recent removal is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=386051343 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooperoldid=386051343 On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Sarah Stierch sa...@sarahstierch.com mailto:sa...@sarahstierch.com wrote: Maybe I'm missing something - what's her username? Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Susan Spencer susan.spen...@gmail.com mailto:susan.spen...@gmail.com wrote: Wikipedia editors, Can someone look into Danese's pages please? She probably wouldn't mind if someone contacted her directly to find out more. - Susan Spencer Conklin -- Forwarded message -- From: Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com mailto:dan...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Knitters and Coders: separated at birth? To: Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com mailto:maco...@gmail.com Cc: debian-women debian-wo...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-wo...@lists.debian.org danese on Ravelry, as in life ;-). I've written quite a lot about knitting in public, although for some reason the Wikipedia community won't leave those references on my page :-(. -- Mackenzie Morgan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-women-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org mailto:listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTikBJ9NGyF2fzvL5ObKjG-6WEBuH=a...@mail.gmail.com -- Sarah Stierch Consulting Historical, cultural artistic research, advising event planning. -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ http://www.sarahstierch.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
