RE: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

[Ross Gardler]

I'll repeat again, we want contributors who will work within the community. 
Nobody is turned  away.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Tim Williams
Sent: ‎12/‎5/‎2015 8:15 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> Nobody is turned away.

Jedi mind tricks won't work on me Ross:)  When someone says, "We are
not seeking more." it is the same as being turned away.

For the rest of it, I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree.  The
bottom line is, someone [Jim] who's eminently qualified to help mentor
a new group of folks volunteered.  It's fair to assume that he, I, and
you understand that he understood what that role was when he
volunteered.

>Mentors don't do the work. Contributors do. Mentors do not make decisions. 
>Contributors so. Mentors have " binding votes" but that is just because of the 
>structure we have in the ASF, a good mentor will only ever use that vote to 
>enact the wishes of the community.

I understand just as well as you how things work Ross. Please check
yourself before going into condescending-lecture-mode, it's remarkably
uncool and uninviting. As a dood, its really weird to be mansplained
to!  But, thanks Champ!

> This is the opposite of "counter cultural".

Which would be... cultural?  Meaning, you're suggesting it's the norm
to turn away ridiculously qualified volunteers for a particular role
in a community?

> Contributors are what matter not mentors.

Seems another mind trick.  While in incubation mentors are
contributors - contributors to cultural understanding.  They
contribute to helping a podling bootstrap in our infrastructure and
grok the Apache Way.  To turn away a potential mentor is to turn away
a contributor.  Ignoring a mentor's impact/contributions to a
community seems naive at best.

Regardless of the semantics, on a practical level, a person like Jim
shows up offering to help a new community understand how to develop
community-driven software, I say *you take the help*.  Period.  Same
for Greg, which you apparently agreed based on some arbitrary N<=3.

Again, I wish you and Fineract the best...

--tim

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Re: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

[Tim Williams]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> Nobody is turned away.

Jedi mind tricks won't work on me Ross:)  When someone says, "We are
not seeking more." it is the same as being turned away.

For the rest of it, I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree.  The
bottom line is, someone [Jim] who's eminently qualified to help mentor
a new group of folks volunteered.  It's fair to assume that he, I, and
you understand that he understood what that role was when he
volunteered.

>Mentors don't do the work. Contributors do. Mentors do not make decisions. 
>Contributors so. Mentors have " binding votes" but that is just because of the 
>structure we have in the ASF, a good mentor will only ever use that vote to 
>enact the wishes of the community.

I understand just as well as you how things work Ross. Please check
yourself before going into condescending-lecture-mode, it's remarkably
uncool and uninviting. As a dood, its really weird to be mansplained
to!  But, thanks Champ!

> This is the opposite of "counter cultural".

Which would be... cultural?  Meaning, you're suggesting it's the norm
to turn away ridiculously qualified volunteers for a particular role
in a community?

> Contributors are what matter not mentors.

Seems another mind trick.  While in incubation mentors are
contributors - contributors to cultural understanding.  They
contribute to helping a podling bootstrap in our infrastructure and
grok the Apache Way.  To turn away a potential mentor is to turn away
a contributor.  Ignoring a mentor's impact/contributions to a
community seems naive at best.

Regardless of the semantics, on a practical level, a person like Jim
shows up offering to help a new community understand how to develop
community-driven software, I say *you take the help*.  Period.  Same
for Greg, which you apparently agreed based on some arbitrary N<=3.

Again, I wish you and Fineract the best...

--tim

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Re: apache-website-template git commit: Add LICENSE and NOTICE files

[Luciano Resende]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Julian Hyde  wrote:

> Thanks, Luciano. I've got a couple of issues to discuss, which I'll
> log as github issues, so we can discuss there.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
Great, I have created a JIRA issue to enable issues for the repository

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-10901



-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: apache-website-template git commit: Add LICENSE and NOTICE files

[Julian Hyde]

Thanks, Luciano. I've got a couple of issues to discuss, which I'll
log as github issues, so we can discuss there.

Julian


On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Luciano Resende  wrote:
> I have merged your changes now, and will push as soon as a fix couple
> little navigation issues.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Friday, December 4, 2015, Julian Hyde  wrote:
>
>> I’ve been making some changes to the template and submitting them as
>> github pull requests. (I made 5 pull requests a couple of weeks ago, which
>> weren’t noticed, and Luciano subsequently made very some similar changes.
>> Frustrating.)
>>
>> I don’t want to clutter this list with dev traffic, but there’s no other
>> forum. In the absence of a dev list, Luciano, can I suggest that you watch
>> github pull requests [1] closely. We can discuss on github, as long as you
>> notice the pull requests come in.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/apache/apache-website-template/pulls
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 3, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Luciano Resende > > wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 6:16 AM, Marvin Humphrey > >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:17 AM, sebb >
>> wrote:
>> >>> PING
>> >>
>> >> I'd also like to see this addressed.  Licensing documentation for
>> Incubator
>> >> sample code should adhere to best practices.
>> >>
>> >>> On 28 November 2015 at 22:59, sebb >
>> wrote:
>>  On 28 November 2015 at 16:26,  >
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> > +The following components included on this website are distributed
>> >> under MIT license :
>> > +
>> > +- Jekyll
>> > +- Jekyll Bootstrap
>> > +- Bootstrap
>> > +- jQuery
>> > +
>> > +The MIT License (MIT):
>> > +
>> > +Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
>> obtaining
>> >> a copy
>> > +of this software and associated documentation files (the
>> "Software"),
>> >> to deal
>> > +in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
>> the
>> >> rights
>> > +to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
>> >> sell
>> > +copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software
>> is
>> > +furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
>> > +
>> > +The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
>> >> included in all
>> > +copies or substantial portions of the Software.
>> > +
>> > +THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND,
>> >> EXPRESS OR
>> > +IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF
>> >> MERCHANTABILITY,
>> > +FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT
>> >> SHALL THE
>> > +AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR
>> OTHER
>> > +LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE,
>> >> ARISING FROM,
>> > +OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER
>> >> DEALINGS IN THE
>> > +SOFTWARE.
>> > +
>> > +
>> 
>>  The LICENSE looks OK.
>> >>
>> >> +1, it's OK, though I'd make one suggestion.
>> >>
>> >> The addition of the MIT license text minus the copyright notice (the
>> >> intent is
>> >> clearly to generalize so that it applies to 4 different dependencies)
>> is a
>> >> bit
>> >> irregular.  The copyright notice is an integral part of the MIT license
>> --
>> >> it's actually a license template and is only completed when the
>> copyright
>> >> notice has the owner filled in.
>> >>
>> >>http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT
>> >>
>> >> To addresss the irregularity, I'd suggest either prepending the template
>> >> line
>> >> `Copyright (c)  ` -- or simply omitting the
>> text
>> >> of
>> >> the MIT license, instead including filepath pointers to where the deps
>> >> can be found in the distro.
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> http://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf/apache-website-template/blob/9e881e24/NOTICE
>> >
>> --
>> > diff --git a/NOTICE b/NOTICE
>> > new file mode 100644
>> > index 000..a4fed15
>> > --- /dev/null
>> > +++ b/NOTICE
>> > @@ -0,0 +1,11 @@
>> 
>>  The ASF Copright header is missing
>> 
>>  See http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#notice
>> 
>> >>
>> >> +1
>> >>
>> >> Just the copyright notice, i.e. this:
>> >>
>> >>  Apache [PRODUCT_NAME]
>> >>  Copyright [] The Apache Software Foundation
>> >>
>> >> Actually, what should "[PRODUCT_NAME]" be in this case?
>> >>
>> > +This product includes software developed at
>> > +The Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/).
>> > +
>> 
>>  That paragraph is OK
>> 
>> > +This product uses Jekyll software (http://jekyllrb.com/)
>> > +Copyright (c) 2008-2015 Tom Preston-Werner
>> > +
>> > +This product includes Boostrap software (http://getbootstrap.com/)
>> > +Copyright (c) 2011-2015 Twitter, Inc
>> > +
>> > +This product includes jQuery software (http://

RE: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

[Ross Gardler]

Nobody is turned away. Mentors don't do the work. Contributors do. Mentors do 
not make decisions. Contributors so. Mentors have " binding votes" but that is 
just because of the structure we have in the ASF, a good mentor will only ever 
use that vote to enact the wishes of the community. This is the opposite of 
"counter cultural". Contributors are what matter not mentors.

See recent discussions in the topic of mentors and how many people. Some 
people, myself included, feel the role of mentor had changed over the years. In 
this project we want it to go back to what it was and should be. Advisors only. 
We don't want anyone in the pushing to feel mentors have authority. We want 
excellent community candidates to demonstrate how merit it's earned around 
here. That can include by giving advise from experience within the ASF, but it 
will be the podling who decide who is contributing constructively and therefore 
vote then in as committers.

Note this is nothing to do with any individual. I'll pick on Jim as we know one 
another (and in fact Jim is a supporter of the one mentor model). Jim has an 
untold amount of expertise to offer this project. I imagine, if he had the time 
to offer, he'll become a committer quickly. The same will be true for anyone 
else who contributes.

Ross

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Tim Williams
Sent: ‎12/‎5/‎2015 5:08 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> I'm replying top of thread as this is a general reply regarding mentors.
>
> We just added Greg Stein as a third mentor. He wasn't on the originally 
> submitted proposal as he was just checking on availability before confirming.
>
> Based on recent conversations in the IPMC I (as champion) advised the project 
> stick to a single mentor who was willing to put his/her head on the block. 
> This individual would take full responsibility for rapid turnaround on all 
> items needing mentor feedback. However, the team had already discussed the 
> proposal with a number of other people. As a result they feel that 3 mentors 
> is appropriate, respecting both IPMC traditions and those already advising 
> the community. Hence we have three mentors. We are not seeking more.

This isn't about "seeking more" - literally a perfectly qualified
[potential] mentor fell in your lap.  Do what you want, this just
feels incredibly counter-cultural to me - that is, to actively turn
away an eminently qualified volunteer.  I think it's both unwise in
this specific instance and a poor example to hint that its
acceptable/desirable in general.

Anyway, best wishes to Fineract...

Thanks,
--tim

** Just to be clear, I'm well aware that the other three mentors are
rock solid as well:)

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Re: [PODLINGNAMESEARCH] Tempo - will there be issues using this name?

[Shane Curcuru]

(note mixed public/private lists)

Thanks.  The ASF has slightly different criteria for a name search than
most software vendors, so this bears discussion.

If someone could forward brief details of the proposed podling, what
company is donating it, and any other name search details to the
privately-archived tradema...@apache.org mailing list then we can look
into it.

In particular, if the donating company is willing to do a more thorough
name search with their counsel and send us the results at
tradema...@apache.org, that is immensely helpful to us as a non-profit.

- Shane

Hadrian Zbarcea wrote on 12/4/15 4:36 PM:
> This is an issue for trademarks actually. For the reason Tony described
> I assume the podling should look for a more suitable name.
> 
> Advice appreciated.
> Hadrian
> 
> On 12/04/2015 03:03 PM, Tony Faustini wrote:
>> Hi all,  as part of the due diligence for the TempoProposal we need to
>> see if the name ’Tempo’ is viable. I did a search of the US Trademark
>> Electronic Search System (TESS) and found 188 live uses of this name
>> as well as a Google Search. The most interesting one that emerged and
>> that is directly related to this technology space was a Chicago based
>> start-up called TempoIQ see
>> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/tempo#/entity
>> . It would be
>> good to get the Apache Legal team perspective on this. I didn’t do an
>> International search on the name yet but will do so if needed.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Tony


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Re: [PORPOSAL] Fineract

[Tim Williams]

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> I'm replying top of thread as this is a general reply regarding mentors.
>
> We just added Greg Stein as a third mentor. He wasn't on the originally 
> submitted proposal as he was just checking on availability before confirming.
>
> Based on recent conversations in the IPMC I (as champion) advised the project 
> stick to a single mentor who was willing to put his/her head on the block. 
> This individual would take full responsibility for rapid turnaround on all 
> items needing mentor feedback. However, the team had already discussed the 
> proposal with a number of other people. As a result they feel that 3 mentors 
> is appropriate, respecting both IPMC traditions and those already advising 
> the community. Hence we have three mentors. We are not seeking more.

This isn't about "seeking more" - literally a perfectly qualified
[potential] mentor fell in your lap.  Do what you want, this just
feels incredibly counter-cultural to me - that is, to actively turn
away an eminently qualified volunteer.  I think it's both unwise in
this specific instance and a poor example to hint that its
acceptable/desirable in general.

Anyway, best wishes to Fineract...

Thanks,
--tim

** Just to be clear, I'm well aware that the other three mentors are
rock solid as well:)

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Re: Websites at podling.apache.org

[Niall Pemberton]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 4:46 AM, Marvin Humphrey 
wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Niall Pemberton
>  wrote:
>
> > As Rob said, if they're following the other branding requirements, then
> do
> > we need to continue enforcing the subdomain requirement?
>
> Well, I just looked[1] and many podling websites aren't following the
> branding
> requirements.  And some bury the required elements, so they basically look
> like TLPs.
>
> At least a website URL with "incubator.apache.org" in it is something we
> don't
> have to police.
>

True, but I dont think the URL adds much to the branding. Having the
incubator logo prominent on the page would be more effective.



> > For me (and on behalf of Geode) I think we she leave the current status
> quo.
>
> The "status quo" is existing policy.  The temporary availability of
> $(PODLING).apache.org websites is the result of a misconfiguration -- a
> technical error.
>
> If you do not like the proposed technical solution of installing 302/307
> redirects, please suggest another technical solution.
>
> If you instead wish to propose a change to podling branding policy, please
> provide a patch for discussion.
>

Attached a patch to:
1. change from poding.i.a.o to poding.a.o
2. Require the incubator logo and that it be prominent

Niall


>
> Regardless, we need to do *something*.  It's not acceptable to leave policy
> and implementation in conflict.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> [1] Review of podling websites for compliance with selected podling
> branding
> guidelines, 2015-12-04.
>
> D = Missing incubation disclaimer.
> I = First mention doesn't indicate incubating status.
> L = Missing Incubator logo. (This is a "SHOULD", not a "MUST".)
>
> --- http://apex.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://asterixdb.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://atlas.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://batchee.incubator.apache.org/
> --L http://incubator.apache.org/blur
> --L http://commonsrdf.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://datafu.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://eagle.incubator.apache.org/
> -IL http://freemarker.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://geode.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://hawq.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://horn.incubator.apache.org/
> D-L http://htrace.incubator.apache.org/
> DIL http://johnzon.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://logging.apache.org/log4cxx/
> --- http://madlib.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://mrql.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://mynewt.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://myriad.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
> -I- http://ranger.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://samoa.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://sentry.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://singa.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://slider.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://streams.incubator.apache.org/
> --L http://systemml.incubator.apache.org/
> DI- http://tamaya.incubator.apache.org/
> --L http://taverna.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://tinkerpop.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://trafodion.incubator.apache.org/
> -I- http://twill.incubator.apache.org/
> DIL http://unomi.incubator.apache.org/
> --- http://incubator.apache.org/wave/
> --L http://zeppelin.incubator.apache.org/
>
> No website:
>
> http://cmda.incubator.apache.org/
> http://concerted.incubator.apache.org/
> http://cotton.incubator.apache.org/
> http://impala.incubator.apache.org/
> http://kudu.incubator.apache.org/
> http://openaz.incubator.apache.org/
> http://rya.incubator.apache.org/
> http://s2graph.incubator.apache.org/
>
> -
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>
>

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