Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Hi Jim, Jim Jagielski wrote on 2011-06-06 18.06: The reality is that IBM employees wearing their IBM hats, have made it crystal clear on the general@incubator list that IBM is going to force The Apache Foundation to take the project. How? I am *not* saying you would be influenced or forced - I'd never doubt that you are deciding independent. However, what people may give the feeling that something's wrong are statements like these: http://www.sutor.com/c/2011/06/some-remarks-on-openoffice-going-to-apache/comment-page-1/#comment-5309 it is a done deal That might create wrong impressions... Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:17, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi Jim, Jim Jagielski wrote on 2011-06-06 18.06: The reality is that IBM employees wearing their IBM hats, have made it crystal clear on the general@incubator list that IBM is going to force The Apache Foundation to take the project. How? I am *not* saying you would be influenced or forced - I'd never doubt that you are deciding independent. However, what people may give the feeling that something's wrong are statements like these: http://www.sutor.com/c/2011/06/some-remarks-on-openoffice-going-to-apache/comment-page-1/#comment-5309 it is a done deal That might create wrong impressions... I'll repeat what Jim said: how do you think IBM can force us to take the project? Bob can say whatever he'd like on his blog. The software grant is a done deal. I happen to believe the proposal will be accepted, but it is not a done deal. In any case... stop assuming that what *one* person says is representative of the entire (ASF) community. That simply isn't true. Cheers, -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On 6/6/11 6:17 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi Jim, Jim Jagielski wrote on 2011-06-06 18.06: The reality is that IBM employees wearing their IBM hats, have made it crystal clear on the general@incubator list that IBM is going to force The Apache Foundation to take the project. How? I am *not* saying you would be influenced or forced - I'd never doubt that you are deciding independent. However, what people may give the feeling that something's wrong are statements like these: http://www.sutor.com/c/2011/06/some-remarks-on-openoffice-going-to-apache/comment-page-1/#comment-5309 it is a done deal That might create wrong impressions... Should The ASF made responsible for every comments made on the Internet by people who are not even remotely connected to The ASF ? -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Hi Greg, Greg Stein wrote on 2011-06-06 18.36: I'll repeat what Jim said: how do you think IBM can force us to take the project? Bob can say whatever he'd like on his blog. it wasn't me who stated that, so don't ask me. :-) I stated with my previous mail that I do *not* think you are forced. What I wanted to say is that statements like these *might* lead to assumptions, and that's (IMHO) the reason why people make statements you could be influenced. The software grant is a done deal. I happen to believe the proposal will be accepted, but it is not a done deal. Ah, okay - so the software grant exists independent from the incubation result? In any case... stop assuming that what*one* person says is representative of the entire (ASF) community. That simply isn't true. No, that wasn't my intention - sorry if it looked like that. I just wanted to make help understand why people state things they do. Again, I do *not* believe you are influenced. Never did so. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Hi, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote on 2011-06-06 18.40: Should The ASF made responsible for every comments made on the Internet by people who are not even remotely connected to The ASF ? no, and I didn't say that. Again, I just wanted to point out why people believe things as we heard before. Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. I am quoting my mail here again: == I am *not* saying you would be influenced or forced - I'd never doubt that you are deciding independent. However, what people may give the feeling that something's wrong are statements like these: http://www.sutor.com/c/2011/06/some-remarks-on-openoffice-going-to-apache/comment-page-1/#comment-5309 it is a done deal That might create wrong impressions... == So, where did I say that Apache was influenced, or Apache was responsible? Nowhere. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
fwiw, Bob Sutor is not a committer or on the incubator PMC or a member of the ASF [1]. Here's the list of folks on the incubator PMC who will vote on the proposal [2] [1] http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html [2] http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#incubator-pmc On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:17, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi Jim, Jim Jagielski wrote on 2011-06-06 18.06: The reality is that IBM employees wearing their IBM hats, have made it crystal clear on the general@incubator list that IBM is going to force The Apache Foundation to take the project. How? I am *not* saying you would be influenced or forced - I'd never doubt that you are deciding independent. However, what people may give the feeling that something's wrong are statements like these: http://www.sutor.com/c/2011/06/some-remarks-on-openoffice-going-to-apache/comment-page-1/#comment-5309 it is a done deal That might create wrong impressions... I'll repeat what Jim said: how do you think IBM can force us to take the project? Bob can say whatever he'd like on his blog. The software grant is a done deal. I happen to believe the proposal will be accepted, but it is not a done deal. In any case... stop assuming that what *one* person says is representative of the entire (ASF) community. That simply isn't true. Cheers, -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On 6/6/11 6:47 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote on 2011-06-06 18.40: Should The ASF made responsible for every comments made on the Internet by people who are not even remotely connected to The ASF ? no, and I didn't say that. Again, I just wanted to point out why people believe things as we heard before. Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. And I didn't say that you suggested such thing either... I'm just saying that people are supposed to use their brain, instead of elaborate some theory based on some random sentences picked from the web. We should also be confident that people are smart enough to understand the ins and outs, otherwise we will simply waste our time explaining them again and again something they can't/don't want to get.. -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Look guys, this is going round in circles. I'm not an ASF or TDF member but I spent quite a lot of time and effort on OOo and ODF in the past so I care what happens. The fact is the software grant is made. My understanding is that if the code goes into the incubator it does not even guarantee it will emerge as a marketable product. It might just sit on a shelf in ASF gathering dust because no-one really has the resources to do anything with it. OTOH it might thrive and take over the desktop office world (I wish :-) ) . At this point there is no way of knowing. All this incubator process is supposed to do is see if ASF members think it has some potential. Its good to get all the issues out in the open but this one on the IBM conspiracy theory is really exhausted. It's not going to change anything. Let's say we persuaded the good guys at Apache that this is a ploy to manipulate them and they reject the code. Where then will it go? If conspiracy is right it definitely won't be to TDF and it could be to somewhere a lot more damaging to TDF than the ASF. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: The software grant is a done deal. I happen to believe the proposal will be accepted, but it is not a done deal. Ah, okay - so the software grant exists independent from the incubation result? The software grant was received on 31 May. It has no conditions beyond what exists in the standard software grant that we receive from everybody: http://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt The grant itself contains no secrets beyond email addresses and the like, which is why we don't publish them for public inspection. I have already published an extracted list of files. I'm told that there is some line break problems with my extraction methods, and will look into that. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: Look guys, this is going round in circles. I'm not an ASF or TDF member but I spent quite a lot of time and effort on OOo and ODF in the past so I care what happens. The fact is the software grant is made. My understanding is that if the code goes into the incubator it does not even guarantee it will emerge as a marketable product. It might just sit on a shelf in ASF gathering dust because no-one really has the resources to do anything with it. OTOH it might thrive and take over the desktop office world (I wish :-) ) . At this point there is no way of knowing. All this incubator process is supposed to do is see if ASF members think it has some potential. Its good to get all the issues out in the open but this one on the IBM conspiracy theory is really exhausted. It's not going to change anything. Let's say we persuaded the good guys at Apache that this is a ploy to manipulate them and they reject the code. Where then will it go? If conspiracy is right it definitely won't be to TDF and it could be to somewhere a lot more damaging to TDF than the ASF. +1
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:46, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Greg Stein wrote on 2011-06-06 18.36: ... The software grant is a done deal. I happen to believe the proposal will be accepted, but it is not a done deal. Ah, okay - so the software grant exists independent from the incubation result? Yes. The software grant was recorded by the ASF Secretary last week. Cheers, -g - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Phillip Rhodes motley.crue@gmail.comwrote: Let's say we persuaded the good guys at Apache that this is a ploy to manipulate them and they reject the code. Where then will it go? If conspiracy is right it definitely won't be to TDF and it could be to somewhere a lot more damaging to TDF than the ASF. 100% agreed. Once this project is approved, it will be much easier to work out ideal compromises together too. S.
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Hi, Le 6 juin 11 à 19:00, Ian Lynch a écrit : Look guys, this is going round in circles. I'm not an ASF or TDF member but I spent quite a lot of time and effort on OOo and ODF in the past so I care what happens. The fact is the software grant is made. My understanding is that if the code goes into the incubator it does not even guarantee it will emerge as a marketable product. Why do you believe that ? Several people like me are simply waiting for checkout the sources. I really expect myself to begin asap, per see where we *really* are. Regards, Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On 6 Jun 2011, at 18:00, Ian Lynch wrote: what happens. The fact is the software grant is made. My understanding is that if the code goes into the incubator it does not even guarantee it will emerge as a marketable product. ... OTOH it might thrive and take over the desktop office world (I wish :-) ) . At this point there is no way of knowing. Correct. All this incubator process is supposed to do is see if ASF members think it has some potential. No. It is a lot more nefarious than that :) Its a filter. It ensures that the IPR is in order, that rights are cleared - and that, should the project make it through, the community has the ability to be in control of its own destiny (within the limits of local law and government induced monopolies and interventions). It ensures that people can do releases with well understood liabilities, can work on the code with well understood rules (and subsequent personal protection). It also ensures there is a viable community of peers, selected on merit, who are self-manging their community and their code base. And who are able to manage the code in such a way that all this continues to hold true. And it ensures that people and companies alike can pick up releases and use them in a well defined set of circumstances in the products and services they use or sell. It might just sit on a shelf in ASF gathering dust because no-one really has the resources to do anything with it. And its (also) the thing which happens to ensure that it won't be sitting on a shelf in the ASF gathering dust. :) :) As it will get killed and chucked away if it does not make it through the process. So I'd just see this as a 'here is a piece of code' - it came in with a well defined legal situation [2]. Assuming the cross validation of all files check out - it is now over the community at large to (re)organise and create a merit based group of peers who collectively want to work on this code[3]. And it is those peers, these people we trust. Companies, while part of the larger ecosystem, and with occasionally well understood intentions which one could charecterise as 'trust', are not. Dw 1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html 2: http://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt 3: http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Hi Greg, Hi Sam, Sam Ruby wrote on 2011-06-06 19.04: The software grant was received on 31 May. It has no conditions beyond what exists in the standard software grant that we receive from everybody: thanks for clarifying. That indeed helps a lot to understand some things for me. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On 6 Jun 2011, at 18:08, Simon Phipps wrote: On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Phillip Rhodes motley.crue@gmail.comwrote: Let's say we persuaded the good guys at Apache that this is a ploy to manipulate them and they reject the code. Where then will it go? If conspiracy is right it definitely won't be to TDF and it could be to somewhere a lot more damaging to TDF than the ASF. 100% agreed. Once this project is approved, it will be much easier to work out ideal compromises together too. Also - keep in mind that Apache is a fairly simple beast when it comes to driving ideology, agendas and making the world generally a better place. I could easily see the two very effectively working on different planes. The ASF as a place for peers to work on the code - and a higher plane (or several) where TDF or commercial groupings would engage with the ecosystem at a very different level. Dw. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
On 6 June 2011 18:09, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Hi, Le 6 juin 11 à 19:00, Ian Lynch a écrit : Look guys, this is going round in circles. I'm not an ASF or TDF member but I spent quite a lot of time and effort on OOo and ODF in the past so I care what happens. The fact is the software grant is made. My understanding is that if the code goes into the incubator it does not even guarantee it will emerge as a marketable product. Why do you believe that ? Several people like me are simply waiting for checkout the sources. I really expect myself to begin asap, per see where we *really* are. I said it didn't guarantee it, not that it was not possible or likely. My point was that to get accepted into the incubator there is no need for absolute certainty of development, that comes later. (If I have understood the Apache process correctly) (PS glad for your enthusiasm :-) )
