Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
My understanding is that ASF provide us some kind of 'legal' protection (I don't know which one) provided that you have send your ICLA. Isn't it a type of contract? Gilles 2007/5/30, Niclas Hedhman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wednesday 30 May 2007 12:42, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: Mmm - bzzz - that's incorrect. You'll recall you signed a legally binding document to become a committer? H... Now when you mention it, it is actually quite interesting. First of all the ICLA is not a contract (from the little I know of contract law there must be 'something for something' exchanged between two parties), it is a license. I voluntarily provide rights[1] to ASF. It is for ASF to use those rights or not to its own discretion. Right? So, anyone can actually fax that license to the Secretary of ASF, and by filing the license in the foundation's records, ASF still has no contractual/legal obligation towards the sender of the fax. ASF never enters a contract with the committer. The act of signing and faxing the license to ASF, is not something that the PMCs can oversee (other than don't grant commit rights if no CLA on file), as that is for the individual to do. He/she got the legal consequence as soon as that document reaches ASF. So, I honestly fail to see where it becomes a legal consequence to the _ASF_ that a person is provided commit access to a codebase. It is definately not in the act of sending the CLA. Allowing the user to commit, doesn't look like a legal action either, and if 'reception of a commit' is the actual legal act, then every commit must be under the microscope of the PMCs and becomes unmanagable, and the CLA is there to prevent that. Perhaps you can provide a better angle. [1] Also that IP rights you contribute is yours to do so, and if not it is your fault and not ASF's. You effectively indemnify ASF against claims on IP rights you have committed to the codebases. Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Gilles SCOKART - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Noel, Now that we have 3 votes from IPMC, can we please proceed with the accout creation for arnuad? Thanks Henry for giving the +1 for this thread. Besides Yoav has +0 so I guess there are no objections at all. Arnaud has been very active in the last two months and he throughly deserves to be a committer. Since James dropped off as a mentor we didn't even have 3 mentors until Yoav stepped up a few days ago. Had Yoav enough time to familliarize himself with the project, I am sure he would have voted +1 for arnuad. Regards, Rajith On 5/29/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carl Trieloff wrote: The following vote has been open for 6 days, Here is the vote result to add Arnuad Simon to the Qpid project. Vote results so far 15 +1 votes 1 0 No -1. Yes, but I only see two +1 that are binding: Cliff Schmidt Paul Frematle Did I miss a third? A few of us have been reviewing the vote summary and thread today, and none of us notice a third +1 vote. Resolvable, but we need for everyone to pay attention to this stuff. :-) --- Noel
RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Rajith Attapattu wrote: Now that we have 3 votes from IPMC, can we please proceed with the accout creation for arnuad? Yes. Please have one of your Mentors follow through on the account request. Had Yoav enough time to familliarize himself with the project, I am sure he would have voted +1 for arnuad. I won't speak for Yoav, but of those of us who were reviewing the issue yesterday, any of us would have voted +1. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
The following vote has been open for 6 days, Here is the vote result to add Arnuad Simon to the Qpid project. regards Carl. Vote results so far 15 +1 votes 1 0 No -1. +1 votes Cliff Schmidt Paul Frematle Alan Conway Kevin Smith Andrew Stitcher Rajith Attapattu Tomas Restrepo Kim van der Riet Martin Ritchie Rupert Smith Gordon Sim Robert Grieg Robert Godfrey Carl Trieloff Rafael Schloming 0 vote: Yoav Shapira Vote thread -- note two links as I first incorrectly posted without [vote], added [vote] minutes later... http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-qpid-dev/200705.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-qpid-dev/200705.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
To clear things up, add my +1 to the vote. Arnaud's activity in the JIRA looks good. Watch the '0 votes' bit. Normally we take that to mean a +0, so the immediate question is Why did Yoav not want to vote +1?, but I think you meant that he hadn't voted. Plus what Noel just said. Hen On 5/29/07, Carl Trieloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The following vote has been open for 6 days, Here is the vote result to add Arnuad Simon to the Qpid project. regards Carl. Vote results so far 15 +1 votes 1 0 No -1. +1 votes Cliff Schmidt Paul Frematle Alan Conway Kevin Smith Andrew Stitcher Rajith Attapattu Tomas Restrepo Kim van der Riet Martin Ritchie Rupert Smith Gordon Sim Robert Grieg Robert Godfrey Carl Trieloff Rafael Schloming 0 vote: Yoav Shapira Vote thread -- note two links as I first incorrectly posted without [vote], added [vote] minutes later... http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-qpid-dev/200705.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-qpid-dev/200705.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Yoav Shapira wrote: On 5/29/07, Yoav Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always thought (and the documentation at http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html) says PPMC votes are binding. There were plenty of PPMC +1 votes without my vote. If I'm wrong, it (a) sucks because other PPMC members don't learn the Apache Way, and we're telling them they don't count, and (b) the documentation link above is out of date. Having now caught up with a coupe of other threads, I think the direction we're going (where only IPMC member votes count, and other PPMC committer votes do not) REALLY sucks. It makes the PPMC vote a joke. I strongly prefer that what the documentation at the above URL stay as-is and that process continue to be used. LEGALLY PPMC votes mean zilch; this is because the board did not charter or compose the PPMC, doesn't decompose it, doesn't even oversee it per say. They've put the onus on the IPMC to oversee and conduct all incubating projects. In practice, that means the IPMC puts their weight behind the PPMC members' decisions. Practically speaking, unless something is horribly wrong with a proposal/decision, the mentors are going to vote with the majority of the PPMC members, giving their decision the force of an ASF board decision about the incubating podling, new committer, what have you. SO... for all intents and purposes, the PPMC votes DO matter. Very much. It's just that technically, 3 IPMC +1's are needed to ratify their decision. And in reality the board is not overseeing each PPMC, but really it's the effectiveness of the IPMC at managing all of our podlings that they look at each month :) Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Hey, On 5/29/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vote results so far 15 +1 votes 1 0 No -1. Yes, but I only see two +1 that are binding: Cliff Schmidt Paul Frematle Did I miss a third? A few of us have been reviewing the vote summary and thread today, and none of us notice a third +1 vote. Resolvable, but we need for everyone to pay attention to this stuff. :-) I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed committer's contributions. I always thought (and the documentation at http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html) says PPMC votes are binding. There were plenty of PPMC +1 votes without my vote. If I'm wrong, it (a) sucks because other PPMC members don't learn the Apache Way, and we're telling them they don't count, and (b) the documentation link above is out of date. Yoav - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Hey, On 5/29/07, William A. Rowe, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They've put the onus on the IPMC to oversee and conduct all incubating projects. In practice, that means the IPMC puts their weight behind the PPMC members' decisions. Practically speaking, unless something is horribly wrong with a proposal/decision, the mentors are going to vote with the majority of the PPMC members That's not true. Practically speaking, mentors may not have time to review an issue that other PPMC members have had plenty of time to review and vote upon. More importantly, what's the point of having a PPMC and having its non-mentors vote on anything, if their votes aren't counted? I guess it's a general question: if PPMC legally mean zilch, why have them at all? I always thought a main point of the Incubator was to teach incoming committers how Apache works. And a main point of how Apache works is that all committers on a project have equal votes... Yoav - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Yoav Shapira wrote: That's not true. Practically speaking, mentors may not have time to review an issue that other PPMC members have had plenty of time to review and vote upon. That's true, but we are overseeing their -process- not always the details. I have a great deal of confidence in voting +1 on a decision that requires PMC approval, once I've watched a reasoned discussion between the PPMC members on the list. More importantly, what's the point of having a PPMC and having its non-mentors vote on anything, if their votes aren't counted? I guess it's a general question: if PPMC legally mean zilch, why have them at all? It's a TLP PMC on training wheels. We vote at graduation not for a really cool codebase - there are a cast of thousands of those out there. We are actually voting that this group of committers are ready to manage their own effort in an ASF spirit. I always thought a main point of the Incubator was to teach incoming committers how Apache works. And a main point of how Apache works is that all committers on a project have equal votes... yup. which is why - barring something very specific that I need to fix in the project - I'll always vote along with the majority in any healthy incubating PPMC that I mentor. Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Yoav Shapira wrote: I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed committer's contributions. +1 != +0 I always thought (and the documentation at http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html) says PPMC votes are binding. It says (P), and the (P) clearly does not belong. Notice that elsewhere it properly says PPMC, with no (), and the places that are wrong were PMC to which someone added (P). Likewise IPMC should simply be PMC. There is only one PMC: the Incubator PMC. I don't know how to say this more clearly. The PPMC is not a recognized entity in the ASF Bylaws. The PMC is the legal entity, and only PMC votes count in any ASF project. PPMC members should still vote, as can other members of the community, but as a legal matter, only PMC votes are binding. This is not Incubator policy, it is how the ASF works. It is the same in Jakarta, for example, where any Jakarta Committer who isn't on the PMC can vote, but only Jakarta PMC votes count. For years people didn't understand this, but please understand that Jakarta is the source of many of the wrong and bad practices in ASF projects that didn't go through either the HTTP Server project or the Incubator. the documentation link above is out of date. It was never in date. It is wrong, regardless of date. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Wednesday 30 May 2007 07:15, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: LEGALLY PPMC votes mean zilch; this is because the board did not charter or compose the PPMC, doesn't decompose it, doesn't even oversee it per say. And a majority of decisions within a (P)PMC has no legal consequence, and hence no need for the Board (or the delegated IPMC) to oversee. AFAIK, adding a committer is not a legal action, and IMHO no need for the IPMC to make the decision formal. Mmm - bzzz - that's incorrect. You'll recall you signed a legally binding document to become a committer? Yes - two common actions, releasing code, and adding committers, are board actions delegated to PMCs. Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Arnuad Simon as committer for Qpid
On Wednesday 30 May 2007 12:42, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: Mmm - bzzz - that's incorrect. You'll recall you signed a legally binding document to become a committer? H... Now when you mention it, it is actually quite interesting. First of all the ICLA is not a contract (from the little I know of contract law there must be 'something for something' exchanged between two parties), it is a license. I voluntarily provide rights[1] to ASF. It is for ASF to use those rights or not to its own discretion. Right? So, anyone can actually fax that license to the Secretary of ASF, and by filing the license in the foundation's records, ASF still has no contractual/legal obligation towards the sender of the fax. ASF never enters a contract with the committer. The act of signing and faxing the license to ASF, is not something that the PMCs can oversee (other than don't grant commit rights if no CLA on file), as that is for the individual to do. He/she got the legal consequence as soon as that document reaches ASF. So, I honestly fail to see where it becomes a legal consequence to the _ASF_ that a person is provided commit access to a codebase. It is definately not in the act of sending the CLA. Allowing the user to commit, doesn't look like a legal action either, and if 'reception of a commit' is the actual legal act, then every commit must be under the microscope of the PMCs and becomes unmanagable, and the CLA is there to prevent that. Perhaps you can provide a better angle. [1] Also that IP rights you contribute is yours to do so, and if not it is your fault and not ASF's. You effectively indemnify ASF against claims on IP rights you have committed to the codebases. Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
