Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
Bertrans, yes, something like that. I think a simple page in the regular documentation is good enough, which states the model items, whether fully complies with it, and if not why that is the case. Start out to make it a recommendation to all podlings to take a look and incorporate, thumbs up for those who do it, and over time increase the pressure a little bit. On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org wrote: ...the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... So you would see the maturity model as one element of the Incubation graduating checklist, with self-assessment from the podling and its mentors? I like the idea. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
Of course there are... CD40 - podlings may not have this prior to coming ASF, hence the full history might not be available. RE40 - interesting clause in itself, both the can be and the caveat in it no guarantee. IMHO, shouldn't be there at all. QU20 - Highly subjective as noted in footnote 7, and every project would need to examine a reasonable level of security awareness and response strategy, and often there will be varying opinions on what is appropriate. QU40 - That is mostly a function of how popular a project is, and how the project's code is intended to be used. QU50 - How do you check list-ticking the strive to qualifier? CO70 - another strive to... CS50 - a funny one, actually two... Mailing lists are not spelled out, and in theory YouTube videos and response videos could serve as asynchronous channel. Also, it doesn't mention that such channel needs to be provided by ASF infrastructure. IN10/IN20 - I claim that many projects would fail if all companies decided to pull their man-power support away. I happen to think it is relatively good, as that provides use-cases and requirements, but the agendas are there under the surface, and it should be recognized as a fact, rather than pretending it isn't. So, the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... And if it is gating criteria for becoming a TLP, then likewise it should be a reversed gating criteria for going to Attic. Cheers Niclas On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Roman Shaposhnik ro...@shaposhnik.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: ...I understand the maturity model to be something to aspire to and that Apache Projects will always be working toward it. I mean TLPs, not podlings, although podlings should be aware of it and also aspire to it... I don't see why podlings should be different here, once they are about to graduate. Why can't we define our incubation process as a way for podlings to learn to operate according to that maturity model [1]? This would allow us to use the maturity model [1] as a checklist for graduating podlings - do you see anything in there that shouldn't be required from a podling that's about to graduate? I see it as a useful checklist that may uncover interesting issues within the graduating podling. I don't see anything in there that would qualify as an unambiguous gating criteria. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
On Thursday, August 6, 2015, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: +1 with the understanding that there is the usual flexibility between policies and practices, consistent with the spirit and principles of the ASF for Apache Projects. And, to be fair, I think TLPs should also self-assess on a periodic basis as an accountability of the PMC, nudged as necessary by the Chair (not to do it as much as to direct the PMCs eyes to the ball). I do not understand why the initative should come from the Chair, the chair is just an ordinary PMC member with a added responsibility to the board. The Chair cannot and should not be able to nudge more than any other PMC. rgds jan i. I can also imagine the maturity model items being used on an exception basis, only reporting maturity-model deviations and how they are being addressed as part of a report to the Board. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org javascript:;] Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2015 00:28 To: Incubator General general@incubator.apache.org javascript:; Subject: Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...) On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org javascript:; wrote: ...the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... So you would see the maturity model as one element of the Incubation graduating checklist, with self-assessment from the podling and its mentors? I like the idea. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; -- Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
RE: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
+1 with the understanding that there is the usual flexibility between policies and practices, consistent with the spirit and principles of the ASF for Apache Projects. And, to be fair, I think TLPs should also self-assess on a periodic basis as an accountability of the PMC, nudged as necessary by the Chair (not to do it as much as to direct the PMCs eyes to the ball). I can also imagine the maturity model items being used on an exception basis, only reporting maturity-model deviations and how they are being addressed as part of a report to the Board. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2015 00:28 To: Incubator General general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...) On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org wrote: ...the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... So you would see the maturity model as one element of the Incubation graduating checklist, with self-assessment from the podling and its mentors? I like the idea. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org wrote: ...the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... So you would see the maturity model as one element of the Incubation graduating checklist, with self-assessment from the podling and its mentors? I like the idea. +1. Would love to see it being practiced starting from the next podling who's about to graduate. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org wrote: ...the maturity model shouldn't be a set of gating criteria, but that the podling should self-assess its position and to what degree, as well as how, each point is handled. Yes, many of the points are non-negotiable, but don't claim that all are... So you would see the maturity model as one element of the Incubation graduating checklist, with self-assessment from the podling and its mentors? I like the idea. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
OK, thanks Bertrand. My recollection of the maturity-model discussion was that it is about an ideal state and not some gate, and that projects would always be correcting their state toward that defined in the model. I confirm that the current document simply characterizes what the state is for a mature project. I see no statement anywhere that a TLP, or a graduating incubator project, must pass through a maturity assessment. It would certainly be useful for a podling to conduct a self-assessment of its maturity before requesting graduation. It would also be useful for an operating TLP to assess itself with respect to the model, especially if there are concerns in that regard. I am neutral on how this fits into graduation criteria for podlings. However, if it is used for gating purposes, I think that needs to be made very clear by the IPMC lest it just lead to more randomizing of the podling seasoning process. In particular, mentors need to be on board with respect to their responsibilities. I can also imagine a graduation going forward (just as releases can) with certain items remaining to be addressed post-graduation. I note that, at the moment, there is no direct reference to the Project Maturity Model at the https://www.apache.org/dev/project-requirements draft nor at the Incubation Policy, https://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html. I can also imagine a TLP using (or being asked to use) the project maturity model as a checklist in assessing their current state in a report to the Board. Are these the kinds of applications that folks have in mind? -- Dennis -Original Message- From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2015 00:44 To: Incubator General general@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamil...@acm.org Subject: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...) Hi, On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: ...I understand the maturity model to be something to aspire to and that Apache Projects will always be working toward it. I mean TLPs, not podlings, although podlings should be aware of it and also aspire to it... I don't see why podlings should be different here, once they are about to graduate. Why can't we define our incubation process as a way for podlings to learn to operate according to that maturity model [1]? This would allow us to use the maturity model [1] as a checklist for graduating podlings - do you see anything in there that shouldn't be required from a podling that's about to graduate? -Bertrand [1] http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Podlings and the ASF maturity model (was: Reform of Incubator...)
On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: ...I understand the maturity model to be something to aspire to and that Apache Projects will always be working toward it. I mean TLPs, not podlings, although podlings should be aware of it and also aspire to it... I don't see why podlings should be different here, once they are about to graduate. Why can't we define our incubation process as a way for podlings to learn to operate according to that maturity model [1]? This would allow us to use the maturity model [1] as a checklist for graduating podlings - do you see anything in there that shouldn't be required from a podling that's about to graduate? I see it as a useful checklist that may uncover interesting issues within the graduating podling. I don't see anything in there that would qualify as an unambiguous gating criteria. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
