Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
First of all, thx for putting this together and thx for starting up a discussion/effort in the Incubator about how to improve the Incubator instead of just deciding that it is broken and needs to be replaced and/or alternatives found (although both of those PoVs have merit). Let me spend some time digging in on this... It looks like it has usage and benefits not only w/i Incubator but elsewhere. > On Aug 17, 2019, at 9:26 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > I've had hoped I'd get more of a response to the mentor guidance > documentation I suggested. Perhaps it got lost in the other noise? > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/Mentor+Guidance > > Jim and Ross, you have recently stated that you are concerned about the > erosion of our values and principles. It would be great to see your input on > this. If you have other idea one how these values can be better passed to > incubating incubation it would be great to hear. > > I also welcome other IPMC members who have experience and can offer some > advice to other mentors. > > Thanks, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
+1 I agree this is needed -- I'm a PMC member of the Airflow project that recently graduated. We had some great mentors and some who were too busy to help -- life happens, so I'm not complaining about the fact they were busy. But, it does point to the need to be able to ramp up new mentors and having an onboarding document for them would go a long way. On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 7:07 PM Justin Mclean wrote: > Hi, > > I really don’t think there is a dialog happening here. I asked some > questions and no-one answers. Other people seem to want to push some other > tangental view and it’s not clear to me exactly what that is. > > Perhaps I’m not making myself clear? The whole idea is not for me to write > this document but have the 50+ people who have been mentors, to collaborate > and produce this together. In coming up on the material I’m sure there will > be some differences of opinion and useful discussion will happen and help > clarify everyones understand of how the ASF values can be applied. If > no-one who is willing to help then new mentors will keep making the same > mistakes. > > Thanks, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, I really don’t think there is a dialog happening here. I asked some questions and no-one answers. Other people seem to want to push some other tangental view and it’s not clear to me exactly what that is. Perhaps I’m not making myself clear? The whole idea is not for me to write this document but have the 50+ people who have been mentors, to collaborate and produce this together. In coming up on the material I’m sure there will be some differences of opinion and useful discussion will happen and help clarify everyones understand of how the ASF values can be applied. If no-one who is willing to help then new mentors will keep making the same mistakes. Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Ross said everything that I would have said... only better. > On Aug 18, 2019, at 5:35 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: > > Only replying because I'm called out explicitly. > > Documentation does not solve the problem. If someone doesn't already "get" > this stuff then they should not be mentoring. Having a document does not > replace for selecting good mentors who have the time to do the job right. > > It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the problem I > see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with too much > application of rules in the process). The proposed doc is interesting but > it's just more words, We need more action. > > How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project into the > ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. I'd select > those who don't need the above document and who I'm confident will pay > attention and be constructive. I'd then work with those mentors and the > community to ensure people coming through the process are equipped to help me > on the next project I champion. > > This is not new. It's how we setup the Incubator in the first place. But over > the years it has become a machine rather than personal relationships. More > words about the design of the machine won't change this. > > I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. Clarity > in what is expected can help the podlings, but I don't see how this can > really help those people I would already trust to be good mentors i.e. People > who have a vested interest in the success of the project and already know how > to apply the Apache Way to new communities so that they might flourish in > their own way. > > Ross > > > --- > > Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry > > ________ > From: Justin Mclean > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 6:26:32 PM > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document > > Hi, > > I've had hoped I'd get more of a response to the mentor guidance > documentation I suggested. Perhaps it got lost in the other noise? > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FINCUBATOR%2FMentor%2BGuidancedata=02%7C01%7C%7C0e716c1bb8a74438cd0108d7237b24aa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637016884106582384sdata=9v85p9zRNDFHPp3yJgpVp7GUz%2F0NDNvC8vQuZjT4X50%3Dreserved=0 > > Jim and Ross, you have recently stated that you are concerned about the > erosion of our values and principles. It would be great to see your input on > this. If you have other idea one how these values can be better passed to > incubating incubation it would be great to hear. > > I also welcome other IPMC members who have experience and can offer some > advice to other mentors. > > Thanks, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, Just a note to say page has moved to: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/Mentor+FAQ Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, > Sorry for my top post, but I have some observations about your “guide”. > (1) It is more a mentoring FAQ than a guide. Yep agree, and happy to change the name. I was hoping in time it could be fleshed out with more general guidance, but that’s probably a long way off. > (2) You are listing symptoms / policy violations. What I’m trying to do is to map why we do things in a certain way back to ASF values. I think part of the bigger issue here is that it hard to map abstract values to concrete actions in a given situation if you don’t have a lot of experience. This applies to committers, PPMC members and mentors. Meta-cognition is generally the term used, being able to take previous learned knowledge and apply it in new contexts. For people who know the values well it’s becomes unconscious knowledge and that make it a) hard to pass on and b) they may be a little confused why it’s not obvious to everyone. Experts often make poor teachers because of this. In general for any given knowledge/skills area a lot of people are shallow learners, they learn what they need, just before they need it, and don’t really want or need to go too deep. This is a common attribute of adult learners. (There are of course exceptions.) Things (which research has show) that can be done to best improve that include having the material in multiple formats, regular feedback and staggered repetition. You’ll note that the Incubator does provide an environment for that to happen and we generally do 2 of those 3 things well, that not to say improvements can’t be made. I also suggest you have a look at Sharan's thesis for some other insights, the incubator actually does a far better job than some people may think. > (3) It would be better to discuss what community problem is causing the > particular issue instead of putting the blame on poor mentoring. I not so sure this is an universal issue with a single cause, the majority of podlings have no or few issues and progress well, a few don’t and there’s different factors involved in each case. One factor is certainly how far their development process is away from the ASF norm. Another may be company or cultural values shared by a majority of people on the project. However I do think that mentor education is one part of the solution. > I’m overstating a little but I think this FAQ should tie back to solution > using the Apache Way of Governance. > > (A) Consensus Decision Making on a public dev@/general@ Mailing List. > (B) Community Growth is Recognizing all people providing value to the project > as being committed to the project. Trust these people. > (C) Release Open Source Software following Apache Release and Distribution > Policies. > (D) Brand compliance. Well those are all well known and easy to follow… yet we have podlings that don’t follow these. Perhaps part of that is see above comment regards expert knowledge. :-) Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, > Specific feedback: I don't think the "Values" lists are needed. I would > prefer these incorporated into the prose in the "Reasoning" section. The reason it’s there is to map to the values. I think you don’t see the need for it because you have a good understanding of those, but I’m not sure that applies to everyone, in particular if you think of this document being for committers and PPMC members as well. Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi - Sorry for my top post, but I have some observations about your “guide”. (1) It is more a mentoring FAQ than a guide. (2) You are listing symptoms / policy violations. (3) It would be better to discuss what community problem is causing the particular issue instead of putting the blame on poor mentoring. I’m overstating a little but I think this FAQ should tie back to solution using the Apache Way of Governance. (A) Consensus Decision Making on a public dev@/general@ Mailing List. (B) Community Growth is Recognizing all people providing value to the project as being committed to the project. Trust these people. (C) Release Open Source Software following Apache Release and Distribution Policies. (D) Brand compliance. If a project does those things then things are good. Regards, Dave Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 20, 2019, at 9:41 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > Sone thoughts inline. > >> Documentation does not solve the problem. > > I agree it doesn’t solve the whole problem. But it may give time poor mentors > more time to do other things if they can easily reference collective > knowledge on these issues. > >> If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be >> mentoring. > > We have had on occasion people who are mentoring who may not get this stuff > but were passionate supports of their projects, should we exclude them? Some > of this is down to inexperience, and mentoring is one of the good ways to > improve this knowledge and become a better mentor. Even if you have gone > though incubation and mentored a project before you may of not come across > the same situation and it’s not always obvious how to apply the values, > especially in case where there’s conflict between those values (or ASF > policies). > >> Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have the >> time to do the job right. > > 1-2 years (or more in some cases) a long commitment and life sometime > changes things, replacement mentors can’t in all cases be found, so even if > the initial condition is true, it may not be a year into teh project. > > I had thought of making up a mentor capability / score card to help podlings > elect mentors if they don’t already have one. But haven't suggested it > previously as it would probably be unpopular and could be used unproductively. > >> It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the problem I >> see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with too much >> application of rules in the process). > > Is that because you think don’t we have enough high quality mentors? Or the > ones we do have are spread a little too thin? Or that we have these people > but they are not mentoring projects? > >> How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project into >> the ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. > > Being here along time and your previous / current positions would make it > easy for to be able to get the best mentors we have that are a good fit for > the project. I’m not sure that all new incubating projects are able to do > that. > >> I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. Clarity >> in what is expected can help the podlings, > > Do any other mentors want to contribute to this or think it’s an idea worth > perusing? If not I’ll drop it and focus on something else. > >> I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust to >> be good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of the >> project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities so >> that they might flourish in their own way. > > I not sure we actually have enough mentors with those abilities and knowledge > for all of the 50 odd podlings we have or a pool of idle mentors than new > projects can select from. > > Thanks,. > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
+1 I like this document. I expect the way one reaches a point where they don't need the proposed document is by doing a lot of mentoring. So you can't wait until they've already done a lot of mentoring before you start them mentoring :-). It is true that the starter examples are the ones that many people have encountered and dealt with. Personally, I think I'm at the point where I "get" many of the problem statements. I can explain the reasoning well for some, less well for others. I still often need help with approaches to improving things. So, personally, I'll benefit from it. Specific feedback: I don't think the "Values" lists are needed. I would prefer these incorporated into the prose in the "Reasoning" section. Kenn On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:08 AM Julian Hyde wrote: > +1 This guidance document is worth pursuing. There is plenty of criticism > of mentors on this list, it helps to have some guidelines. Thanks Justin. > > > On Aug 20, 2019, at 9:41 PM, Justin Mclean > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Sone thoughts inline. > > > >> Documentation does not solve the problem. > > > > I agree it doesn’t solve the whole problem. But it may give time poor > mentors more time to do other things if they can easily reference > collective knowledge on these issues. > > > >> If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be > mentoring. > > > > We have had on occasion people who are mentoring who may not get this > stuff but were passionate supports of their projects, should we exclude > them? Some of this is down to inexperience, and mentoring is one of the > good ways to improve this knowledge and become a better mentor. Even if > you have gone though incubation and mentored a project before you may of > not come across the same situation and it’s not always obvious how to apply > the values, especially in case where there’s conflict between those values > (or ASF policies). > > > >> Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have > the time to do the job right. > > > > 1-2 years (or more in some cases) a long commitment and life sometime > changes things, replacement mentors can’t in all cases be found, so even if > the initial condition is true, it may not be a year into teh project. > > > > I had thought of making up a mentor capability / score card to help > podlings elect mentors if they don’t already have one. But haven't > suggested it previously as it would probably be unpopular and could be used > unproductively. > > > >> It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the > problem I see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with > too much application of rules in the process). > > > > Is that because you think don’t we have enough high quality mentors? Or > the ones we do have are spread a little too thin? Or that we have these > people but they are not mentoring projects? > > > >> How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project > into the ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. > > > > Being here along time and your previous / current positions would make > it easy for to be able to get the best mentors we have that are a good fit > for the project. I’m not sure that all new incubating projects are able to > do that. > > > >> I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. > Clarity in what is expected can help the podlings, > > > > Do any other mentors want to contribute to this or think it’s an idea > worth perusing? If not I’ll drop it and focus on something else. > > > >> I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust > to be good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of > the project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities > so that they might flourish in their own way. > > > > I not sure we actually have enough mentors with those abilities and > knowledge for all of the 50 odd podlings we have or a pool of idle mentors > than new projects can select from. > > > > Thanks,. > > Justin > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
+1 This guidance document is worth pursuing. There is plenty of criticism of mentors on this list, it helps to have some guidelines. Thanks Justin. > On Aug 20, 2019, at 9:41 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > Sone thoughts inline. > >> Documentation does not solve the problem. > > I agree it doesn’t solve the whole problem. But it may give time poor mentors > more time to do other things if they can easily reference collective > knowledge on these issues. > >> If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be >> mentoring. > > We have had on occasion people who are mentoring who may not get this stuff > but were passionate supports of their projects, should we exclude them? Some > of this is down to inexperience, and mentoring is one of the good ways to > improve this knowledge and become a better mentor. Even if you have gone > though incubation and mentored a project before you may of not come across > the same situation and it’s not always obvious how to apply the values, > especially in case where there’s conflict between those values (or ASF > policies). > >> Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have the >> time to do the job right. > > 1-2 years (or more in some cases) a long commitment and life sometime > changes things, replacement mentors can’t in all cases be found, so even if > the initial condition is true, it may not be a year into teh project. > > I had thought of making up a mentor capability / score card to help podlings > elect mentors if they don’t already have one. But haven't suggested it > previously as it would probably be unpopular and could be used unproductively. > >> It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the problem I >> see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with too much >> application of rules in the process). > > Is that because you think don’t we have enough high quality mentors? Or the > ones we do have are spread a little too thin? Or that we have these people > but they are not mentoring projects? > >> How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project into >> the ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. > > Being here along time and your previous / current positions would make it > easy for to be able to get the best mentors we have that are a good fit for > the project. I’m not sure that all new incubating projects are able to do > that. > >> I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. Clarity >> in what is expected can help the podlings, > > Do any other mentors want to contribute to this or think it’s an idea worth > perusing? If not I’ll drop it and focus on something else. > >> I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust to >> be good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of the >> project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities so >> that they might flourish in their own way. > > I not sure we actually have enough mentors with those abilities and knowledge > for all of the 50 odd podlings we have or a pool of idle mentors than new > projects can select from. > > Thanks,. > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, Sone thoughts inline. > Documentation does not solve the problem. I agree it doesn’t solve the whole problem. But it may give time poor mentors more time to do other things if they can easily reference collective knowledge on these issues. > If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be mentoring. We have had on occasion people who are mentoring who may not get this stuff but were passionate supports of their projects, should we exclude them? Some of this is down to inexperience, and mentoring is one of the good ways to improve this knowledge and become a better mentor. Even if you have gone though incubation and mentored a project before you may of not come across the same situation and it’s not always obvious how to apply the values, especially in case where there’s conflict between those values (or ASF policies). > Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have the > time to do the job right. 1-2 years (or more in some cases) a long commitment and life sometime changes things, replacement mentors can’t in all cases be found, so even if the initial condition is true, it may not be a year into teh project. I had thought of making up a mentor capability / score card to help podlings elect mentors if they don’t already have one. But haven't suggested it previously as it would probably be unpopular and could be used unproductively. > It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the problem I > see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with too much > application of rules in the process). Is that because you think don’t we have enough high quality mentors? Or the ones we do have are spread a little too thin? Or that we have these people but they are not mentoring projects? > How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project into the > ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. Being here along time and your previous / current positions would make it easy for to be able to get the best mentors we have that are a good fit for the project. I’m not sure that all new incubating projects are able to do that. > I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. Clarity > in what is expected can help the podlings, Do any other mentors want to contribute to this or think it’s an idea worth perusing? If not I’ll drop it and focus on something else. > I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust to be > good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of the > project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities so > that they might flourish in their own way. I not sure we actually have enough mentors with those abilities and knowledge for all of the 50 odd podlings we have or a pool of idle mentors than new projects can select from. Thanks,. Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
I'll reply/respond asap. > On Aug 17, 2019, at 9:26 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > I've had hoped I'd get more of a response to the mentor guidance > documentation I suggested. Perhaps it got lost in the other noise? > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/Mentor+Guidance > > Jim and Ross, you have recently stated that you are concerned about the > erosion of our values and principles. It would be great to see your input on > this. If you have other idea one how these values can be better passed to > incubating incubation it would be great to hear. > > I also welcome other IPMC members who have experience and can offer some > advice to other mentors. > > Thanks, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Only replying because I'm called out explicitly. Documentation does not solve the problem. If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be mentoring. Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have the time to do the job right. It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the problem I see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with too much application of rules in the process). The proposed doc is interesting but it's just more words, We need more action. How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project into the ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past. I'd select those who don't need the above document and who I'm confident will pay attention and be constructive. I'd then work with those mentors and the community to ensure people coming through the process are equipped to help me on the next project I champion. This is not new. It's how we setup the Incubator in the first place. But over the years it has become a machine rather than personal relationships. More words about the design of the machine won't change this. I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort. Clarity in what is expected can help the podlings, but I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust to be good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of the project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities so that they might flourish in their own way. Ross --- Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry From: Justin Mclean Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 6:26:32 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document Hi, I've had hoped I'd get more of a response to the mentor guidance documentation I suggested. Perhaps it got lost in the other noise? https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FINCUBATOR%2FMentor%2BGuidancedata=02%7C01%7C%7C0e716c1bb8a74438cd0108d7237b24aa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637016884106582384sdata=9v85p9zRNDFHPp3yJgpVp7GUz%2F0NDNvC8vQuZjT4X50%3Dreserved=0 Jim and Ross, you have recently stated that you are concerned about the erosion of our values and principles. It would be great to see your input on this. If you have other idea one how these values can be better passed to incubating incubation it would be great to hear. I also welcome other IPMC members who have experience and can offer some advice to other mentors. Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Hi, I've had hoped I'd get more of a response to the mentor guidance documentation I suggested. Perhaps it got lost in the other noise? https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/Mentor+Guidance Jim and Ross, you have recently stated that you are concerned about the erosion of our values and principles. It would be great to see your input on this. If you have other idea one how these values can be better passed to incubating incubation it would be great to hear. I also welcome other IPMC members who have experience and can offer some advice to other mentors. Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
