Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Punky Tse]

- Original Message -
From: "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>

Never mind, if people want to flame with jon, just go for it.  But at the
end of the day, they will learn *a lot* ;-)

I'd seen this before, in jserv, tomcat-dev and now general list, people had
flamed with jon and still stayed in the list is now getting more mature(and
so does jon), and still willing to contribute to the community with their
technical excellence.

I got this impression is that a few months ago, while jon was on a flame
with another guy, one contributor/committer humorously stated jon was "still
a pain in the *ss".  That contributor/committer had a endless flame with jon
before (may be almost a year before?).   But at that moment, I felt that the
two guys seems to have certain respect with each other  ;-)

And I would say, seeing a true story like this, it was a great joy.

Punky







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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

Man! 
This is even worse then MY flame wars with Jon!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/10/01 6:14 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
> three years now because you insulted me one too many times.

Lame excuse. Life is full of people you may not like. If you use that as
your excuse for not participating in things, then you might as well not
leave your house either.

The Jakarta project also isn't just me, there are more than enough projects
here that I don't participate in at all and since this is a Meritocracy
founded around the developers, your voice (and complaints) do not have any
weight unless you actually contribute something. People need to realize that
this is not a democracy.

In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are just
leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the Jakarta
project and using emails from me that you may not like as your excuse. I
find that far more offensive than anything I could flame you about.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Scott Tavares]

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org


> on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's
fault!
> > Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> > creating these commotions needlessly.

ttp://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html>
>
> p.s. Scott, I love you too.
>
> -jon
>
>

Yes jon, I know how much you love me. My reply to the link is this: Why
should
I contribute anything if all i'm going to get is insulted for my efforts?
You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
three years now because you insulted me one too many times.




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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
> Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> creating these commotions needlessly.



p.s. Scott, I love you too.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Scott Tavares]

Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
creating these commotions needlessly.

- Original Message -
From: "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org


> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
>   deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>  - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Kevin A. Burton - burtonator]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.

Give jon a break.  With all the hard work he has done he at least deserves the
benefit of the doubt on all these e-mails.

When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done for Apache then you
can judge.

I have no problem with you expressing your viewpoint but calling jon an
"*sshole" was over the top.

If you don't like it, unsubscribe.

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds
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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 12/10/01 9:08 AM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.

Weeell  Not exactly sure about that... :)

> 
> lloyd wrote:
>> 
>>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>> 
>> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> --
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> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Sam Ruby]

Frans Thamura wrote:
>
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..

It is very interesting that you picked as your example Stefano and Cocoon.
Stefano did disappear for approximately a year, and you know what happened?
The development of Cocoon continued.

Some of the founding members of Jakarta have become dormant or moved on.
Others have taken their place.

Apache is a true meritocracy.  If you champion a cause through not only
your words but also your contributions, they will be accepted.  Do it for a
sustained period of time, and others will follow your leadership.  There
were a number of projects here that were not meeting my needs, and in some
cases I assumed leadership of those projects for a release or two.
Ultimately, they got to the point where they were meeting my needs, and
others with different requirements took up the leadership role.

This is why we insist so strongly on only accepting new projects that we
feel have a strong potential for establishing a diverse and sustainable
development community.  For more background, see
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Tod Thomas]

Ted Husted wrote:

>
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.

...or maybe its the attention he gets from the comments that provoke his
defense...


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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yes, Jon could improve the package deal a lot if he wanted (just by
cutting the minus side of it) but it does not look like it is going 
to happen.

And I still prefer having him around than the alternative.

Just my 2 (Euro) cents.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> 
> 
> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen. 
> 
> lloyd wrote:
> > 
> > > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made 
> some logical
> > 
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

Frans, 

Jakarta has a Project Management Committee, much the same as XML. We are
all run by the Apache Software Foundation, and have the same ground
rules. 

http://apache.org/foundation/roles.html

There is a private PMC mailing list, but it is rarely used. Most
communication takes place here, on the General List.

Like XML, all of the Jakarta products are run as Meritocracies. One
committer, one vote. If one committer is busy, any other committer can
step in and do whatever is necessary. There is no formal lead for any of
our products. At least three committers must approve a formal release
before it can be made.

Jakarta has been very popular, and there are thousands of people already
involved with this. We appreciate your support, and hope you will be
able to contribute to one of our products some time. 

For more about Jakarta, please visit 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel +1 716 737-3463
-- http://www.husted.com/struts/

Frans Thamura wrote:
> 
> Dear All,,
> 
> Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
> 
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
> 
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
> 
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
> 
> I cannot find it in Apache..
> 
> Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
> project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
> several project.
> 
> but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
> 
> sample..
> 
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
> 
> I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
> me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
> understand and use it easily..
> 
> Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Frans

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.

I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
(like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen. 

lloyd wrote:
> 
> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Gerhard Froehlich]

>-Original Message-
>From: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:43 PM
>To: Jakarta General List
>Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
>
>
>
>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>
>Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>

Great mate, flame on :-(((

  Gerhard


Give me ambiguity or give me something else.



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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Berin Loritsch]

lloyd wrote:

>>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>>
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.


Not again.

People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.





-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[lloyd]

> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical

Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.





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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Frans Thamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[...]
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
> 
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
> 
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the 
> project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
> 
> I cannot find it in Apache..

[...]

It's hard to figure out what you really want to say...but I believe you are
looking for this:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html

Stephane.

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