Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?

[Henri Gomez]

Hi to all,

I'm using OpenThunderGraph in my day job

(http://sourceforge.net/projects/thundergraph/)

It's really a great graph library which may be used in
both server-side and client-side application.

It support many type of Graph and some nice features like
AutoZoom of part of graph (in applets).

I contacted the main developper and he seems to be ok
with making OpenTG a jakarta project.

So what do you think about it as a sub-project, or as a
jakarta-commons subprojec ?

Regards


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?

[Henri Yandell]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Henri Gomez wrote:

> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/thundergraph/)
>
> I contacted the main developper and he seems to be ok
> with making OpenTG a jakarta project.
>
> So what do you think about it as a sub-project, or as a
> jakarta-commons subprojec ?

I have reservations:

1) It's definitely a GUI focused project. Jakarta as a project has not yet
made any moves to support Java projects which do not have some form of
server aspect. Just as DB based Java projects are going into
db.apache.org, I think there ought to be a gui.apache.org [better name
needed] for this kind of thing.

2) This is a bit like a company looking at using Product X. If Jakarta is
inviting projects in, what are the criteria. Why is ThunderGraph better
than the alternatives?


Rather than digesting ThunderGraph into Jakarta, it'd be nice to see
Apache backing some form of ASF-way-like community for gui'd components,
ie) gui taglibs [we currently do quite abstract taglibs], components,
applets etc.

If we're 'acquiring projects', I think we need some rules of acquisition.

Sorry for such a negative reply,

Hen


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?

[Henri Gomez]

I have reservations:


Let's go...


1) It's definitely a GUI focused project. Jakarta as a project has not yet
made any moves to support Java projects which do not have some form of
server aspect. Just as DB based Java projects are going into
db.apache.org, I think there ought to be a gui.apache.org [better name
needed] for this kind of thing.


TG is not 100% GUI oriented since it could be used to produce graphics
in a server side environment, and as such works great with tomcats.


2) This is a bit like a company looking at using Product X. If Jakarta is
inviting projects in, what are the criteria. Why is ThunderGraph better
than the alternatives?


There is alternative, like JOpenGraph, but they don't want to switch
from GPL/LGPL to BSD/ASF, which is a pre-requisite ;)


Rather than digesting ThunderGraph into Jakarta, it'd be nice to see
Apache backing some form of ASF-way-like community for gui'd components,
ie) gui taglibs [we currently do quite abstract taglibs], components,
applets etc.


How can it be realised ?
ASF umbrella is very attractive to developpers and there is a great
community which may find interesting to be involved in gui projects.

Couldn't we have TG and others GUI related projects under 
jakarta-commons or in a related structure, ie jakarta-guis ?

If we're 'acquiring projects', I think we need some rules of acquisition.

Sorry for such a negative reply,


I'll live with it.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

[OT] Re: Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?

[Micael]

Good dialogue.

At 04:32 PM 1/28/03 +0100, you wrote:

I have reservations:


Let's go...


1) It's definitely a GUI focused project. Jakarta as a project has not yet
made any moves to support Java projects which do not have some form of
server aspect. Just as DB based Java projects are going into
db.apache.org, I think there ought to be a gui.apache.org [better name
needed] for this kind of thing.


TG is not 100% GUI oriented since it could be used to produce graphics
in a server side environment, and as such works great with tomcats.


2) This is a bit like a company looking at using Product X. If Jakarta is
inviting projects in, what are the criteria. Why is ThunderGraph better
than the alternatives?


There is alternative, like JOpenGraph, but they don't want to switch
from GPL/LGPL to BSD/ASF, which is a pre-requisite ;)


Rather than digesting ThunderGraph into Jakarta, it'd be nice to see
Apache backing some form of ASF-way-like community for gui'd components,
ie) gui taglibs [we currently do quite abstract taglibs], components,
applets etc.


How can it be realised ?
ASF umbrella is very attractive to developpers and there is a great
community which may find interesting to be involved in gui projects.

Couldn't we have TG and others GUI related projects under jakarta-commons 
or in a related structure, ie jakarta-guis ?

If we're 'acquiring projects', I think we need some rules of acquisition.
Sorry for such a negative reply,


I'll live with it.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 





LEGAL NOTICE

This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents contain 
information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally 
privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the 
individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as 
indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, 
copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the 
information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you 
have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.  Thank 
you  



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: (PHP interperated via Java) [Fwd: RE: [JBoss-dev] PHP]

[Henri Yandell]

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

> on 2003/1/10 5:06 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I thought this might be interesting to some folks...  They're porting
> > PHP to Java...
>
> Yea, it is called JSP w/ scriptlets.

JSP2.0 w/ JSTL. Full of ${blah} variables to make the PHP fan happy.

> This is a stupid idea.

Agreed. I don't know of anything that PHP has to offer to a JVM. PHP-OO is
a copy of Java's style generally, much of the ease of PHP is doable with
latest JSPs now, PHPs painful admin model is thankfully easier in Java,
and PHPs multitude of db-dependent [PEAR not being dominant] functions are
thankfully not in existence in Java.

The only thing PHP has over Java is the ease with which it fits in an
Apache server. It'd be much nicer to keep improving on [Sam's I think] the
PHP->Java link and defining a subset of PHP so that apache users can use
Java without having to link to another application.

Hen


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?

[Martin van den Bemt]

Love to see a gui framework / tools thingy on apache..
Working on that stuff a lot lately (of course has a Apache Style
License)

Mvgr,
Martin

On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 16:32, Henri Gomez wrote:
> > I have reservations:
> 
> Let's go...
> 
> > 1) It's definitely a GUI focused project. Jakarta as a project has not yet
> > made any moves to support Java projects which do not have some form of
> > server aspect. Just as DB based Java projects are going into
> > db.apache.org, I think there ought to be a gui.apache.org [better name
> > needed] for this kind of thing.
> 
> TG is not 100% GUI oriented since it could be used to produce graphics
> in a server side environment, and as such works great with tomcats.
> 
> > 2) This is a bit like a company looking at using Product X. If Jakarta is
> > inviting projects in, what are the criteria. Why is ThunderGraph better
> > than the alternatives?
> 
> There is alternative, like JOpenGraph, but they don't want to switch
> from GPL/LGPL to BSD/ASF, which is a pre-requisite ;)
> 
> > Rather than digesting ThunderGraph into Jakarta, it'd be nice to see
> > Apache backing some form of ASF-way-like community for gui'd components,
> > ie) gui taglibs [we currently do quite abstract taglibs], components,
> > applets etc.
> 
> How can it be realised ?
> ASF umbrella is very attractive to developpers and there is a great
> community which may find interesting to be involved in gui projects.
> 
> Couldn't we have TG and others GUI related projects under 
> jakarta-commons or in a related structure, ie jakarta-guis ?
> 
> > If we're 'acquiring projects', I think we need some rules of acquisition.
> > 
> > Sorry for such a negative reply,
> 
> I'll live with it.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

nice

[Andrew C. Oliver]

http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery

-Andy


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Henri Yandell]

Interesting points.

Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
role?

[Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].

Hen

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery
>
> -Andy
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Robert Simmons]

JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that
produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and
that is why .NET will win.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: nice


>
> Interesting points.
>
> Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
> it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
> the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
> role?
>
> [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
>
> Hen
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> >
http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
tery
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Henri Yandell]

But who speaks for JCP?

While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.

An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
[for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
registration].

Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.

Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
picture it is often portrayed as? Or is it a loose federation. In which
case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
JCP and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
and not a better future for Java.

To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.

Hen

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:

> JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that
> produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
> member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and
> that is why .NET will win.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
> Subject: Re: nice
>
>
> >
> > Interesting points.
> >
> > Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
> > it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
> > the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
> > role?
> >
> > [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> > >
> http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
> tery
> > >
> > > -Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Robert Simmons]

>
> But who speaks for JCP?

Those who chose to be involved.

> While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.

High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.

Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
commercial entities: $5000
educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
individuals: $0
existing licensees: $0

If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
problems to deal with.

> An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> registration].

That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
are the errant employees.

> Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.

Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.

> Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> picture it is often portrayed as?

Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
isnt common enough to qualify as "often".

> Or is it a loose federation. In which
> case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> JCP

Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
Nations. Dissenters are abounds.

> and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> and not a better future for Java.

*Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
coporates" than you need a reality check. The thing that stops them is
popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
different nature than you percieve. The drive to open source the JDK is being
driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
java.

> To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.

So join it. Whats stopping you?

> While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.

Yes, and Saddam Hussein has a more efficient government than the USA. When he
wants somethign done it gets done. Great isnt it ? No putting up with
squabbling representatives or bickering debates. No one able to criticise
your work and beat it to a pulp. Lets all move to Iraq.

Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid. Microsoft has
shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
law. There was a rumor going around recently when the government suddenly put
kid gloves on after the verdict against microsoft. The rumor was somethign to
the effect that microsoft had a behind the doors word with DOD and the
pentagon and the rest of the government threatening to revoke all of their
windows licenses if they tried to break up the company. Now I dont know if
that is true, but I wouldnt put it past them.

You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
future to your trust in Microsoft. Alternatively you could stick with an
admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.

>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies
that
> > produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
> > member and your vote counts. J

Re: nice

[Jon Scott Stevens]

Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is
that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you
could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time.

-jon


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Henri Yandell]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:

> > But who speaks for JCP?
>
> Those who chose to be involved.

I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.

> > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
>
> High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
>
> Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> commercial entities: $5000
> educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> individuals: $0
> existing licensees: $0
>
> If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> problems to deal with.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
such money.

> > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > registration].
>
> That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> are the errant employees.

I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
at work.

I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
one JSR at a time?

> > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
>
> Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.

Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
see no JCP-wide voting.

> > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > picture it is often portrayed as?
>
> Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> isnt common enough to qualify as "often".

I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.

> > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > JCP
>
> Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> Nations. Dissenters are abounds.

And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
natural speaker.

> > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > and not a better future for Java.
>
> *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> coporates" than you need a reality check.

I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)

> The thing that stops them is
> popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> different nature than you percieve.

Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal
official for that company?

> The drive to open source the JDK is being
> driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
> that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
> java.

Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the
JCP discuss the state of the Java world?

> > To those of us who have not seen the

Re: nice

[Robert Simmons]

Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your
way. You get to choose between a mass of "political bullshit" and having no
choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put
your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are
trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of
"political bullshit" but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect
the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: nice


> Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is
> that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you
> could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time.
>
> -jon
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2003/1/28 9:50 PM, "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your
> way. You get to choose between a mass of "political bullshit" and having no
> choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put
> your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are
> trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of
> "political bullshit" but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect
> the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP.

Fact of the matter is that they don't unless you bitch loudly enough that
they are disrespecting the purpose of the JCP. But then again, you probably
don't see all the discussion that goes on the Servlet API and the other JSR
that I'm on.

If it wasn't for people like myself, Pier, Jason Hunter other ASF members
(and other OSS people), the JCP would be producing specifications that we
would never be able to implement here.

What good is that? How is that any different than what M$ does?

Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

[Henri Yandell]

[Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP
in a text browser the mail archives are at:

http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html

Time for more spam :)

Hen

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > > But who speaks for JCP?
> >
> > Those who chose to be involved.
>
> I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
> I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
> would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
>
> > > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
> >
> > High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> > You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> > minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
> >
> > Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> > commercial entities: $5000
> > educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> > individuals: $0
> > existing licensees: $0
> >
> > If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> > problems to deal with.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
> for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
> money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
> such money.
>
> > > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > > registration].
> >
> > That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> > giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> > submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> > some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> > example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> > give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> > are the errant employees.
>
> I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
> individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
> information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
> at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
> at work.
>
> I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
> individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
> one JSR at a time?
>
> > > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
> >
> > Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> > the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
>
> Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
> the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
> see no JCP-wide voting.
>
> > > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > > picture it is often portrayed as?
> >
> > Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> > isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
>
> I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
> JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
>
> > > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > > JCP
> >
> > Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> > Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
>
> And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
> seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
> over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
> natural speaker.
>
> > > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > > and not a better future for Java.
> >
> > *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> > rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> > coporates" than you need a reality check.
>
> I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)
>
> > The thing that stops them is
> > popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> > teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> > different nature than you percieve.
>
> Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
> developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
> at the JCP, or are th

Re: nice

[Henri Yandell]

To continue having fun replying to myself:

This mail list seems to be akin to a JCP-announce list. It seems to be
Harold Ogle sending out announcements that new documents are available at
the JCP. Useful, but not really what I was asking Robert to show existence
of.

Hen

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:

>
> [Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP
> in a text browser the mail archives are at:
>
> http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html
>
> Time for more spam :)
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> > > > But who speaks for JCP?
> > >
> > > Those who chose to be involved.
> >
> > I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
> > I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
> > would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
> >
> > > > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > > > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > > > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
> > >
> > > High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> > > You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> > > minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
> > >
> > > Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> > > commercial entities: $5000
> > > educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> > > individuals: $0
> > > existing licensees: $0
> > >
> > > If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> > > problems to deal with.
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
> > for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
> > money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
> > such money.
> >
> > > > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > > > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > > > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > > > registration].
> > >
> > > That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> > > giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> > > submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> > > some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> > > example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> > > give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> > > are the errant employees.
> >
> > I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
> > individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
> > information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
> > at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
> > at work.
> >
> > I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
> > individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
> > one JSR at a time?
> >
> > > > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > > > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
> > >
> > > Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> > > the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
> >
> > Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
> > the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
> > see no JCP-wide voting.
> >
> > > > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > > > picture it is often portrayed as?
> > >
> > > Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> > > isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
> >
> > I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
> > JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
> >
> > > > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > > > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > > > JCP
> > >
> > > Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> > > Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
> >
> > And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
> > seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
> > over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
> > natural speaker.
> >
> > > > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > > > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > > > and not a better future for Java.
> > >
> > > *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> > > rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company

Re: nice

[Steven Noels]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:


Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.


Yay! +1

Cluetrain might be the naive interpretation of that, but still it's a 
good way to deal with the so-called 'real-life' without becoming a cynic.


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]