Re: VOTE: Tomcat -> TLP

[Conor MacNeill]

The question:
   I vote in support of the proposal to move Tomcat to an Apache Top 
Level Project as
   detailed in the attached Resolution.

   [  ] +1 Vote in support
   [  ]  0   Abstain
   [  ] -1  Vote against
+1
Conor
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Re: how do i switch from tdk 2.2 to tdk 2.3 without a mess

[Conor MacNeill]

The FIRST thing you do is figure out on which list to ask your question. 
 Cross-Posting to every list you can find WILL NOT get you *ANY* useful 
answers.

Conor
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RE: www.apache.org down?

[Conor MacNeill]

Power outage in the SF area due to a substation fire.

Conor


> -Original Message-
> From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vic Cekvenich
> Sent: Sunday, 21 December 2003 11:52 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: www.apache.org down?
> 
> 
> It seems that www.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org, etc. are down.
> Could be my isp  but...
> 
> 
> .V
> ps: open source != closed list
> 
> 
> 
> -
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> 

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Re: Client authentication

[Conor MacNeill]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 03:20 am, Josep Riudavets wrote:

>
> Any tip?
>
> Thanks all
>
> Josep


Josep, 

This list is for the management of the Apache Jakarta project. Questions 
regarding httpd should be directed to the httpd project. Find the appropriate 
list here

http://httpd.apache.org/lists.html

Conor



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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

[Conor MacNeill]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:41 am, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> (we've done some talking on the pmc list and turbineers have discussed
> this in the past but since it's not really confidential i'm starting
> this thread to give everyone a chance to participate.)
>

Have we asked the JCS developers what they want to do? We may be better off 
telling them that they should change their organization and let them decide 
what is the most appropriate move to make. 

Conor


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Re: requesting karma to jakarta-site2

[Conor MacNeill]

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:07 am, Rodney Waldhoff wrote:
> Can I get karma on jakarta-site2 in order to update the xdocs for the
> commons-primitives 1.0 release?
>
> Thanks,
>

Done

Conor


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Re: Gump and Unicode

[Conor MacNeill]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:05 am, Brian Ewins wrote:
> Use the unicode escapes rather than the character literals in the code?
> You won't get DoubleMetaphone.java to compile unless you pass the
> encoding flag to javac.
>
> The two letters appear to be \u00C7, \u00D1 - capital C with a cedilla
> and capital N with a tilde? Putting
> case '\u00C7':
> case '\u00D1':
>
> in the appropriate places should fix things.

Or add the encoding attribute to the  task. The file may remain more 
readable that way, at least on some platforms. I'm not sure if that is 
possible from a Maven generated build file.

Just to be clear this is not a Gump issue - I think the problem would appear 
whenever you try to compile on any platform with a different default 
encoding.

Conor


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Re: Sun

[Conor MacNeill]

On Thu, 29 May 2003 12:26 am, Steven Noels wrote:
> watcher, I'm becoming part of the wind itself. :-D
>

Yeah, prunes will do that.

Conor


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Re: Jakarta: too many similar projects?

[Conor MacNeill]

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:07 pm, Rich Persaud wrote:
>
> It is straightforward to replace brand overloading with brand segmentation,
> including informal segmentation that is later formalized upon wide
> adoption.
>

huh?

Conor


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Re: Using daedalus to deploy the httpclienttest.war

[Conor MacNeill]

On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 03:38 pm, Nick Chalko wrote:
> War's, like jars are the kind of artifacts that the ASF repository
> should support.
>

Sure, but there is a difference between being able to access/download a war 
and being able to interact with a war within a servlet container.

Conor


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Re: Another unused import statement report is out...

[Conor MacNeill]

Simon Brooke wrote:
Do you have a tool for checking for unused imports? I know I have a lot of 
them in my code, but weeding them takes time and time is something I'm always 
short of...

There are a few - Tom's tool, PMD, will do it, while checkstyle will also do 
it.

Conor



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Conor MacNeill]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 19/2/03 21:31 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This is not a convincing enough argument to make me change my point of view.

Pier


Fair enough.

I think it is fair to interpret the paragraph you quoted

> The PMC is responsible for the strategic direction and success of the
> Jakarta Project. This governing body is expected to ensure the
> project's welfare and guide its overall direction.

as the PMC *collectively* not the PMC members *individually*. A bit like 
saying the government is responsible for running the country. That doesn't 
mean every minister will have expertise in every portfolio (using the 
political lingo of the country in which I reside). I know in reality that 
many ministers have no expertise at all but this is just an analogy :-)

Conor






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Re: PMC Nomination

[Conor MacNeill]

Stephen Colebourne wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, being a PMC member implies an overseing role for the
whole of jakarta, 

No, not quite, IMHO. The PMC as a *whole* has an oversight role for the 
whole of Jakarta but individual PMC members do not need to oversee all of 
Jakarta. In fact this is the nub of the reorg issues which have been 
floating around. AIUI, the 7 member PMC approach was felt not to be able to 
adequately cover all of Jakarta and the PMC must grow to adequately provide 
oversight. Eventually most consistently active committers will join the PMC. 
This is the httpd model, for example. Sam is moving from where we have been 
to that point in a series of steps.

a requirement to follow PMC issues and votes and to be a
manager. Whilst the concept of being able to push forward jakarta, JSRs,
make decisions etc is appealing, I do not believe that I have the time
available to do the job. Hell, I already lack the time to fully oversee the
commons-lang, commons-collections and commons-clazz projects that I am
involved with as I would like :-)


If you are providing oversight of these projects, even to the extent you 
have time available, you are already filling one of the roles of a PMC 
member. If you have acted as a release manager, then you have performed a 
purely PMC role. All releases of Jakarta sub-projects must be approved by 
the PMC. This isn't something that has been done in Jakarta to date, really, 
but will be increasingly the case as the PMC expands. To quote Sam

"Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects that chose to remain in
Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in particular release
votes will become a responsibility of the PMC.  That does not mean that
all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that it will be from this
pool of members that release votes will be cast.  Clearly there will
need to be a number waves of additions like the one above to the PMC
before we get to this point."



So, unless someone magically wants to convince me otherwise, I must
respectfully decline the pressgang.



Well, have I convinced you?

Conor



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Re: ASL in non ASF code.

[Conor MacNeill]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Stefan,

do u know where the ant-contrib license is? I can't find it in their 
CVS

In the source code.

Conor



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Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto

[Conor MacNeill]

Steven Noels wrote:


I was trying not to post the obvious, but yes: this seems largely 
premature. No code, a restricted community, too much committers coming 
from one company, I've seen better proposals being fought over lately. 
Also, possible future integration 'ideas' with some related projects 
would be comforting (Jetspeed, Tomcat, Struts/Tiles, and the Cocoon 
portal framework for a starter).


Steven,

I think these are exactly the sort of questions incubator is designed to 
answer. Tapestry was about seeing how an existing project can come into 
Apache. Perhaps Pluto is an opportunity to understand how a new project 
can be created and encouraged at Apache. They are both interesting 
challenges for the incubator.

As for your issues, "No code" is true (for now) but that is the sort of 
project Pluto represents. If at the end, the incubator PMC decides that 
the project still has the problems you identify (if they are in fact 
problems), then the project should remain in incubation until the 
community is self supporting, or be discontinued, whatever. That is a 
decision for further down the track, I think.It would seem to me that if 
JetSpeed is in scope for Jakarta,

IMHO, a reference implementation at Apache of a Portal standard would be 
appropriate, especially considering JetSpeed is already at Jakarta. I'm 
not into portals myself so I can't really comment on the project's 
merits beyond that.

Conor


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Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto

[Conor MacNeill]

Stefan Hepper wrote:

Hi all,
I would like to propose a new Jakarta project, named Pluto, that should
provide the reference implementation of the JSR 168 Portlet Specification.

Please see http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?PlutoProposal for
more details (I've also attached the proposal below).

Regards,
Stefan



Stefan,

Are you aware of the apache incubator? I assume this would have to go 
through the incubator first.

Are we still using Jyve for FAQs (or am I thinking of the wrong Jyve)?

Conor


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[Conor MacNeill]

Sam Ruby wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I propose to nominate Glen Stampoultzis



On 16 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Also want ask you to also nominate Robert Burrel Donkin.




+1 to both.



+1

Conor



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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

[Conor MacNeill]

Sam Ruby wrote:


P.S.  My vote is +1 on all.



+1 for all.

Conor



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Re: O'Reilly Network: Why JSP Sucks So Hard

[Conor MacNeill]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/user/view/wlg/2423



Yawn. Not another JSP Sux discussion :-(

Conor



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Re: [discussion] jakarta-gump as community property

[Conor MacNeill]

Sam Ruby wrote:

Considering all of this, what I would like to propose is that the 
contents of jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump get moved to jakarta-gump, 
all committers to any jakarta code base be given karma and voting rights 
on the full contents (descriptors, code, and stylesheets alike) and that 
a single [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing be created (we are all devs 
here, right?)



+1

Conor



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Re: [POLL] OS of choice

[Conor MacNeill]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

I added a simple poll for Jakarta developers.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/os.html

Please update the site with your preferences.



Could I please have site karma?

Thanks
Conor



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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Conor MacNeill]

Brian McCallister wrote:

On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 09:18, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice?




Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux
workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change.

-Brian


I think this thread has lost its way :-)

Conor



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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Conor MacNeill]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Micael,

 I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do
you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic how
everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products,
yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage, why
would anyone want it???  God, some people! 
 As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read
them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.



Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I 
would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented 
so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and 
compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use 
Microsoft products as I please.

I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by 
patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole 
C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even 
the ECMA standardization.

Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ...

Conor



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Re: JSP Document Support in Tomcat 4.x

[Conor MacNeill]

Ragy Eleish wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I wrote a JSP document that mixes JSP XML tags with XHTML tags as follows,
> where I used a JSP expression to calculate the XHTML tag's attribute value
> (src="%=url2%"). Jasper wasn't able to convert it correctly, it didn't
> recognize that this is a JSP expression but took the value as is. Meaning
> the final HTML was (src="%=url2%") and not (src="http://www.lycos.com";).
> 
> The main purpose of mixing XHML and JSP tags is to get a well formed
> document.
> 
> I understand that the Spec is a little vague, but is there a plan to support
> that?
> 

I couldn't tell you - try asking this question on a tomcat list.

Conor




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Reorganizing to support mirroring

[Conor MacNeill]

Currently the Jakarta project's builds are not mirrored along with the 
rest of the Apache site. For example, check this out

ftp://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/apache/dist/jakarta/README.txt

To support mirroring, Joshua Slive, who has been looking at the issue, 
believes the following changes will be required to the structure of the 
Jakarta download area and webpages

> 1. All the nightly builds need to be targeted someplace else.  I suggest 
>cvs.apache.org:/www/cvs.apache.org/builds/ but 
>www.apache.org:/www/jakarta.apache.org/nightly/ could also work.  This is just too 
>much stuff to be pushing out to the mirrors every night.
> 
> 1a. Remove all the nightly directories from 
>www.apache.org:/www/jakarta.apache.org/builds/
> 
> 2. Move www.apache.org:/www/jakarta.apache.org/builds/ to 
>www.apache.org:/www/www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/ and provide a redirect (either via 
>.htaccess or httpd.conf).
> 
> 3. Change the links from the jakarta webpages to point at
> http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/jakarta/ (and subdirectories thereof).

Obviously this represents a fairly major change to all Jakarta sub 
projects in terms of nightly build processes, web page links etc.

I'd like to start a discussion about this here now. I think mirroring is 
obviously something we should support but we're going to need to go 
through some migration process to get from where we are today to the above.

Any thoughts on the best way to achieve this smoothly :-) ?

Cheers
Conor


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Conor MacNeill]

Jeff Schnitzer wrote:

>>>Hear hear!  (But go emacs! ;-)
>>>  
>>>
>>B... vi rules!
>>
>>
>
>
>Ed is the standard text editor.
>  
>
When I went to Uni. vi was considered too resource intensive - you had 
to use ed.

ed rocks (well not really)

Conor



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Re: BTW - You guys aren't so funny.

[Conor MacNeill]

Sam Ruby wrote:

>Just thought I would let you know.
>
>- Sam Ruby
>  
>

+1





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Re: [New Subproject Proposal] ObjectBridge

[Conor MacNeill]

Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to propose ObjectRelationalBridge
> (http://objectbridge.sourceforge.net/) as a top level subproject of
> Jakarta.
> 


+1

Conor



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Re: New Subproject proposal Config4J

[Conor MacNeill]

Endre Stølsvik wrote:

> 
> But why did Jakarta end up with that rather nonsense name?
> 

Jakarta is the capital of Indonesia located on the island of Java.

One nonsense name deserves another :-)

Conor


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RE: [VOTE] Switching development to C#

[Conor MacNeill]

Erik,

Are you talking to your office documents again? :-)

Conor


> -Original Message-
> From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 April 2002 1:43 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Switching development to C#
>
>
> Ummm, if you're using .NET wouldn't you be able to natively talk (COM,
> perhaps) to Office documents, thereby obliviating the need for POI
> altogether?!   :)  (this is said jokingly, but if I'm off base then feel
> free to enlighten me).
>
> Erik
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOTE] Switching development to C#
>
>
> > I've been thinking about it...Perhaps we shouldn't port POI over to C#,
> > perhaps we should utilize the full power of .NET and port it to all 7-13
> > languages it supports currently!  Meaning
> >
> > POIFS = VB.NET
> > HSSF = C#
> > HPSF = PERL.NET
> > HDF = J#
> >
> > I mean, thats one degree of separation!  Think of all the advantages
> > learning all of these different languages (sadly I know them all except
> > for C#/J# which you could argue I know via knowing Java).
> >
> > Gosh!  That should help POI out tremendously.
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > On Mon, 2002-04-01 at 20:15, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > > Do you have anything against Fortran or Cobol?
> > >
> > > There will be .Net implementations for those, you know? And we could
> > > leverage the power of all those "legacy" academic and enterprise
> > > programmers.
> > >
> > > (I bet there are a lot of Cobol guys getting a lot of free time on
> > > their hands after the Y2K mess.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:10 PM
> > > > To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: [VOTE] Switching development to C#
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Marc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Having become convinced by Andy that C# and .NET are the
> wave of the
> > > > > future, I'm proposing that we switch poi development to C#.
> > > > >
> > > > > To the Jakarta community at large: will this affect our
> status as a
> > > > > Jakarta project? I mean, I can see where a lot of projects are
> > > > > eventually going to follow this same path ...
> > > >
> > > > I'm ok with using .NET, but I think you should use BASIC as
> language,
> > > > not C#. .NET is language independent, and other jakarta projects
> > > > already switched to BASIC.
> > > >
> > > > Costin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> > >
> > --
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
> > Document
> > format to java
> > http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> > - fix java generics!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>


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Re: LICENSE in .jar files

[Conor MacNeill]

acoliver wrote:

> I do.  I was just curious.
> 

Have you a licence for that? :-) It's a mad world.

Conor


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RE: LICENSE in .jar files

[Conor MacNeill]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, 21 March 2002 1:10 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: LICENSE in .jar files
>
>
> BTW.  Define: "release" ;-)
>

I guess it would be up to a court to define "release" :-) I don't know what
it means :-)

There are similar definition problems with terms such as "distribution".
Does providing a jar in CVS consistute distribution. Probably does.

Conor


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RE: LICENSE in .jar files

[Conor MacNeill]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, 21 March 2002 1:03 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: LICENSE in .jar files
>
>
> So could a non-tainted person through black box testing produce their
> own JAXP clone?
>
> -Andy
>

I don't know. IANAL. We really do need a lawyer. Anyway, in my view, you
would not be able to legally run such a reverse engineered clone on a Sun
JDK

>From the JDK 1.4 licence.

Java Technology Restrictions. You may not modify the Java Platform Interface
("JPI", identified as classes contained within the "java" package or any
subpackages of the "java" package), by creating additional classes within
the JPI or otherwise causing the addition to or modification of the classes
in the JPI.  In the event that you create an additional class and associated
API(s) which (i) extends the functionality of the Java platform, and (ii) is
exposed to third party software developers for the purpose of developing
additional software which invokes such additional API, you must promptly
publish broadly an accurate specification for such API for free use by all
developers.  You may not create, or authorize your licensees to create,
additional classes, interfaces, or subpackages that are in any way
identified as "java", "javax", "sun" or similar convention as specified by
Sun in any naming convention designation.


Conor


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RE: LICENSE in .jar files

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
>
>
> I think what Peter said was that you can read the spec only if you
> agree with the licence, and that prevents you from implementing it
> unless you follow all the rules.
>

You can read the spec. You just can't use the spec to create a cleanroom
implementation of the specification. You can still read it to understand how
to use somebody else's implementation. Presumably, however, having read the
spec, you are tainted.

> That includes the requirement to pass the official test suite,
> and probably other restrictions I don't understand.

The problematic clause is this one, I presume:
"(vi) satisfies all testing requirements available from the Specification
Lead relating to the most
recently published version of the Specification six (6) months prior to any
release of the clean room
implementation or upgrade thereto;"

Presumably we cannot distribute the xml-apis unless we can meet this
requirement of the spec.

This page
http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/final/jsr063/

asserts that there is a JAXP TCK, although you can't seem to purchase it
online.

Other restrictions - who knows? When the spec says "(vii) does not derive
from any of the Specification Lead's source code or binary code materials;",
it is not clear to me what that covers, especially in the case of JAXP where
I think the RI comes from Apache, based on code originally contributed by
the Specification Lead (Sun).

Also there may be a specific Out-of-Band Sun-Apache licence in place as
alluded to by Dirk earlier.

>
> It's obvious some of the people who worked on this did read
> the spec - so it seems this is not a legal implementation.
>

If there is no specific agreement between Sun and Apache covering this, then
I agree.

> The licencing and jcp lists are closed to the public, and
> this seems to be the job of the PMC and ASF ( to verify
> that all the software is legally used ). I can only hope
> a lawyer will be used to validate it.
>
> If this is not resolved - we have to start removing all
> dependencies to JAXP and all other APIs that are not legal,
> and eventually work on replacements.
>
> There is no other way.

I presume you can still depend on JAXP without having your own clean room
implementation, nor including it in a distribution. You would have to
require the user to acquire their own copy of the jaxp classes/interfaces. I
haven't seen any restrictions in the spec on linking.

Conor


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RE: PMC Chair elelection

[Conor MacNeill]

Pete,

> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, 14 March 2002 7:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Chair elelection
> 
> 
> +1 to Sam being chair regardless of whether he wants to or not ;)
> 
> Nothing but good has come out of it so far so why mess with a good thing?
> 

Pete,

True. The idea was to give any other folks who wanted to give it a shot, the 
opportunity to put themselves forward. It seems clear that if Sam is agreeable, he 
would be the only candidate, though I must acknowledge Geir, who indicated his 
willingness, even while supporting Sam.

So Sam, if you are willing, a simple set of +1 votes from the PMC should be sufficient.

Let me add mine to those already expressed.

+1

Conor


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PMC Chair elelection

[Conor MacNeill]

The first order of business for the new PMC is the election of a Chair.

Would all PMC members indicate if they would be willing to act as Chair for
the next 12 months. Once each PMC member has indicated their availability,
we can proceed to an election.

If there are more than three candidates, I propose a preferential voting
system where each PMC member gives numbered preferences. If no candiate has
a clear majority, the votes from the candidate with the least number of
votes are distributed according to the indicated preferences. This process
continues until one candidate has a majority (4 votes).

If you are not happy with this process, that's OK - just -1 this email and
propose an alternative.

Conor


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Re: JakartaOne

[Conor MacNeill]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 >

> Heck from the East Coast US right now its cheaper to fly/stay in Europe
> than the west coast (go figure).  For kicks I investigated hotel prices
> in the area WHOA!  For about 2-$300 right now I can get to Munich
> (highly suggest for a get together).  Hotels in Munich in the off season
> drop to like 110 marks ($50) a night to stay in the thick of things
> (with bathroom and shower), Europe is a wonderful place to spend dollars
> (especially when the currency sinks!).  The only nasty thing is that
> there 7-10 hour flight!  


That's short-haul from my part of the world :-)

Conor



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RE: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Conor MacNeill]

I accept Magesh's nomination. Thanks to Magesh and Gier for their nomination
and +1.

Background

I became involved with Apache through Tomcat in late 99, contributing some
patches, bug fixes, etc. I had some problems building Tomcat with Ant, so I
focussed on fixing it and that began a long journey of contributing to Ant,
which is where I still make most of my contributions today. I think the
concept of community in Jakarta is important and I have made some great
friends as a result, most of whom I have never actually met in person.

Outside of Apache, I have developed software professionally for 14 years
ranging from hardware design, embedded operating systems written in
assembler, telecoms network software, network management, banking systems
and most recently J2EE systems for eCommerce.

I spell colour with a "u", licence with a "c" unless it is a verb and I like
Christmas at the beach. If you want to know more, send me an email.

Geir, I'm trying to remove classpath/classloader pain from Ant but no
promises :-)

Conor






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PMC Nomination

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

I would like to nominate Diane Holt for the PMC. Diane is a current PMC
member and a committer on the Ant subproject. I think Diane brings a
somewhat different perspective from the typical hardcore developer types
here at Jakarta. I think that balance would be a good thing for the PMC.

Conor


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Re: the .tar.gz extension

[Conor MacNeill]

Andy Armstrong wrote:

> 
> Is this perhaps because the server they're on is sending them using gzip
> encoding which means that the browser expands them as it downloads.
> Apache does that. If you have index.html.gz for example it'll be served
> compressed and expanded by the browser.
> 


Yes, I believe this is the case. Unfortunately, in my experience 
(Mozilla) the file still gets saved with the .gz extension when it is in 
fact a tar file. That can be a little confusing. When gzip complains, I 
immediately suspect that the download screwed up :-)

Conor





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Logos and CLA

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

The Ant subproject is currently soliciting Logo submissions for Ant. I would
like to clarify what will be required, from a legal POV, from a logo
submitter for their logo to be adopted by Ant. Is this scenario covered by
the CLA? Is the CLA required, is it sufficient?

I'd appreciate any info.

Conor


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RE: Managing project documentation (release vs CVS versions) ?

[Conor MacNeill]

You don't have to use a branch - just check out with the release tag. It is
sticky and will not get updated by cvs update.

Conor

> -Original Message-
> From: Vincent Massol [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, 17 January 2002 10:45 AM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Managing project documentation (release vs CVS versions) ?
>
>
> I should have thought about this ... stupid me ... Thanks.
>
> -Vincent
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 16 January 2002 23:38
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Managing project documentation (release vs CVS versions)
> ?
> >
> > The "recomended" solution for this is to use a branch. ie When you
> make a
> > release you also branch at same instant. Then if you need to update
> the
> > current web docs you modify them in the branch, then update the
> website
> > (which is using last branch released). If you need to update the docs
> for
> > the
> > current CVS then you do it in the main trunk/HEAD revision. When
> needed
> > you
> > merge the branch back into the main trunk.
> >
> > However I don't know of any projects that do this except for ant.
> >
> > It may also require a bit more CVS savvy that normal but should be
> > possible
> > to do if that is what cactus/whatever needs.
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:34, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have always been pondering how to best manage the following.
> Should
> > > there be 2 web sites per project : one for the latest release
> > > (containing docs + javadoc corresponding to the latest release) and
> one
> > > for nightly builds (containing docs + javadocs corresponding to the
> > > latest code) ?
> > >
> > > When I work on a new feature that I want to document, I cannot
> document
> > > it in the xdocs/ directory because next time I change something for
> the
> > > web site and I want to make that change visible, it will also
> contain
> > > the new feature documentation. However, that feature is only present
> in
> > > CVS (not released yet) and users will have trouble understanding why
> > > this feature does not work with the code they downloaded. Of course,
> I
> > > could have a header that says "WARNING: Feature only available in
> CVS"
> > > but it is awkward. Another solution is to have 2 xdocs directory but
> > > again this is awkward ...
> > >
> > > Any idea ? How are other projects doing this ?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Vincent Massol
> > > OCTO Technology UK Ltd
> > > www.octo.com
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: (020) 8996 9540
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > *--*
> > | "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want |
> > | to test a man's character, give him power."  |
> > |   -Abraham Lincoln   |
> > *--*
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> >
>
>
>
>
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RE: More abuse of coding styles...

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
>
> Just beware of this bug:
>
> public void setSomething(Object somthing) { // something misspelled
>  this.something = something;
> }
>

Don't you use a spell checker on your code?

Actually this problem is one reason why it is better to use single letter
variable names. You can't spell them incorrectly.

:-) :-) :-)

Anyone seen the groundhog yet?

Conor



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release signing policy?

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

Having read all this stuff about what is Jakarta, what is the PMC's 
role, etc reminded me of something which I think should be addressed at 
PMC level, if not higher  - the policy of signing releases. We have put 
something in place at a subproject level for Ant but I think an overall 
policy is desirable.

I had a quick look at the latest release or beta of most project release 
directories. As far as I can tell, this is the status:

Ant, Avalon, Tomcat 3.3 are signed. Taglibs appears to be signed but I 
didn't check its vast array of release components.
BCEL, ECS, ORO, Regexp, Velocity and XMLRpc have md5 files but no signatures
All others do not appear to be signed.

Of the releases that are signed, all use .asc files for the signature 
except Avalon-Framework which uses .sig files (although its verify 
example uses .asc).

I think a consistent, Jakarta-wide policy of signing distributions would 
be a good thing.

Currently the subprojects that do sign their releases have their own 
KEYS file. Should there be a central Jakarta-wide KEYS file? Apache-wide?

I can write or draft some text on how to go about signing a 
distribution. Perhaps it could be part of a committer "howto" page 
dealing with how to put togther a release. I don't mean the subproject 
specific stuff but other stuff like where you put releases, adding 
README.html, maybe even tagging and branching suggestions. It may even 
be good to move the full CVS access info into this area - whatever.

Let me know your thoughts.

Conor


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Re: License change for new year ?

[Conor MacNeill]

Vincent Massol wrote:

> I have 2 questions :
> 
> 1/ Now that we are in 2002, do we need to change the text in all our
> license files to be : "Copyright (c) 1999-2002 The Apache Software
> Foundation" instead of "Copyright (c) 1999-2001 The Apache Software
> Foundation" ?
> 
> 2/ Some license files only have "Copyright (c) 1999 The Apache Software
> Foundation" and some others have a year range as in "Copyright (c)
> 1999-2001 The Apache Software Foundation". Should one be preferred over
> the other ? Are they both valid ?
> 
> Thanks
> -Vincent


Vincent,

I don't know the official Apache or Jakarta policies, if there are any. 
I have tried to follow something I read in the Taligent guide to 
designing programs (A C++ era coding convention/design guide book), 
where it states

"If you significantly modify a file, list the year of the modification. 
The years correspond to publication, not creation, dates. Separate 
consecutive years with a dash, but off years with a comma

// Copyright (c) 1992, 1994-1996 "

Seems a reasonable approach.

Conor





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Re: Code conventions

[Conor MacNeill]

Ted Husted wrote:
 >

> Peter, I hope you and yours are well. The Australian "Black Christmas"
> is all over the morning news here. 
> 


The smoke is pretty thick here right now even in the city suburbs. 
Having all your windows shut up when the outside temperature is in the 
mid thirties isn't fun. Of course, we are better off than those who live 
on the edge of the bush.

Anyway, Ted, I'm sure Peter isn't too concerned, he is about 800 km 
away, in Melbourne. We do like their helicopter though.

Conor :-)




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RE: [PATCH] info on unsubscribing

[Conor MacNeill]

> Are there any known issues with unsubscribing people?

Don't know - I get the odd request from people who can't seem to
unsubscribe. I have often found that they think their email address is one
thing but some downstream system changes it on them and they never realize
that :-(. I have been able to unsubscribe most.

I just thought this would help some people who have trouble and who throw
away the welcome message. Haven't noticed any country code correlation.

Conor




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[PATCH] info on unsubscribing

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

Attached is a patch to the mailing list guidelines.

It provides some info on moderation process and also a new section on 
how to unsubscribe. It may be more appropriate for unsubscribe info to 
be on a separate page but I thought it was worth getting people to think 
about this when they subscribe rather than when they want to unsubscribe.

Feel free to change it around if you prefer.

Conor


? mail.patch
Index: site/mail.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/mail.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.20
diff -3 -u -w -p -r1.20 mail.xml
--- site/mail.xml   2001/12/08 00:11:17 1.20
+++ site/mail.xml   2001/12/13 12:47:20
@@ -93,7 +93,7 @@ This will almost guarantee that you will
 If your email is more than about a page of text, chances are that it
 won't get read by very many people. It is much better to try to pack a
 lot of informative information (see above about asking smart questions)
-into as small of an email as possible. If you are replying to a previous
+into as small an email as possible. If you are replying to a previous
 email, it is a good idea to only quote the parts that you are replying
 to and to remove the unnecessary bits. This makes it easier for people
 to follow a thread as well as making the email archives easier to search
@@ -147,6 +147,16 @@ some people may only see half of the con
 
 
 
+Summary: Unsubscribed posts require approval.
+If you post to a list from an address which is not subscribed to that list, 
+your post will require approval by the list owner. This helps to reduce spam
+to the list. Due to the workload of the list owner and the timezone in 
+which they operate it may be several hours before the post is approved 
+and appears on the list. Please do not send your message repeatedly in 
+this case - you will just annoy the list owner.
+
+
+
 Now that you have read the guidelines above, here is the page that gives you
 a listing of the different mailing lists that you can join. If you
@@ -155,6 +165,45 @@ you will be sent back here to read it ag
 get answered. So, you might as well take the time now to read it and
 save yourself from looking like a fool.
 
+
+
+
+
+
+When you subscribe to a list, you will receive a welcome message from the 
+list management software. Please do not delete this message. It contains 
+useful information about your subscription and instructions on how to 
+interact with the list manager, including how to unsubscribe yourself. 
+
+
+In some instances, corporate mail gateways may alter your outgoing 
+email address so that the address under which you subscribed is no longer
+the same as the address that appears when you send email. This can make it 
+more difficult to unsubscribe. In this situation you need to determine
+the address under which you are subscribed. On the next message you
+receive from the list, examine the email headers. In partcular look
+for the "Return-Path:" header. It will look something like this
+
+
+Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+
+In this example, your subscription address for the ant-user list is 
+"[EMAIL PROTECTED]". You may now unsubscribe by sending an empty 
+email to the following address
+
+
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+
+where, obviously, you substitute your subscribed address for 
+"blah=foobar.com"
+
+
+Do not send unsubscribe requests to the list. If, 
+after following the above instructions, you still have trouble unsubscribing
+please contact the list owner. Sending unsubscribe requests to the list
+or appending them to an active thread just disturbs the list members, 
+most of whom cannot help you.
+  
 
 
 



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Re: [Vote] BCEL @ Jakarta

[Conor MacNeill]

Jason van Zyl wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I now have a proposal for BCEL which can be found here:
> 
> http://www.apache.org/~jvanzyl/jakarta-bcel
> 
> +1
> 
> 

My non-binding +1

Conor



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[PATCH] update news with Ant 1.4.1 release

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

Attached is a patch wth news of the Ant 1.4.1 release.

Thanks


Index: docs/site/binindex.html
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/docs/site/binindex.html,v
retrieving revision 1.105
diff -u -w -r1.105 binindex.html
--- docs/site/binindex.html 2001/10/11 23:55:15 1.105
+++ docs/site/binindex.html 2001/10/12 12:34:37
@@ -189,7 +189,7 @@
 Release Builds
 
 
-http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4/bin/";>Ant 
1.4
+http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1/bin/";>Ant 
+1.4.1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/framework/v4.0";>Avalon 
Framework 4.0
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/excalibur/v4.0";>Avalon 
Excalibur 4.0
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-cactus/release/v1.2/";>Cactus 
1.2
@@ -211,7 +211,6 @@
 Milestone Builds
 
 
-http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1b1/";>Ant 
1.4.1 beta 1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/logkit/latest/";>Avalon 
LogKit 1.0 beta 5
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/phoenix/latest/";>Avalon
 Phoenix 4.0 alpha 1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-lucene/release/v1.2-rc1/";>Lucene 1.2 
Release Candidate 1
Index: docs/site/news.html
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/docs/site/news.html,v
retrieving revision 1.103
diff -u -w -r1.103 news.html
--- docs/site/news.html 2001/10/11 23:55:15 1.103
+++ docs/site/news.html 2001/10/12 12:34:56
@@ -139,6 +139,11 @@
   
   
 
+11 October 2001 - Ant 1.4.1 Released
+This is a bugfix release for Ant 
+1.4 which corrects a number of small issues.
+Download it 
+http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1/";>here.
+
 7 October 2001 - Tomcat 4.0.1 Beta 1 
Released
 This is a release candidate for 
Tomcat 4.0.1, which is a maintenance release
 of Tomcat 4.0. Download it 
Index: xdocs/site/binindex.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/binindex.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.88
diff -u -w -r1.88 binindex.xml
--- xdocs/site/binindex.xml 2001/10/07 18:51:51 1.88
+++ xdocs/site/binindex.xml 2001/10/12 12:35:22
@@ -70,7 +70,7 @@
 
 
 
-http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4/bin/";>Ant 
1.4
+http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1/bin/";>Ant 
+1.4.1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/framework/v4.0";>Avalon 
Framework 4.0
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/excalibur/v4.0";>Avalon 
Excalibur 4.0
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-cactus/release/v1.2/";>Cactus 
1.2
@@ -94,7 +94,6 @@
 
 
 
-http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1b1/";>Ant 
1.4.1 beta 1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/logkit/latest/";>Avalon 
LogKit 1.0 beta 5
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-avalon/release/phoenix/latest/";>Avalon
 Phoenix 4.0 alpha 1
 http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-lucene/release/v1.2-rc1/";>Lucene 1.2 
Release Candidate 1
Index: xdocs/site/news.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/news.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.86
diff -u -w -r1.86 news.xml
--- xdocs/site/news.xml 2001/10/07 18:51:51 1.86
+++ xdocs/site/news.xml 2001/10/12 12:35:26
@@ -11,6 +11,12 @@
 
 
 
+11 October 2001 - Ant 1.4.1 Released
+This is a bugfix release for Ant 1.4 which corrects a number of small issues.
+Download it 
+http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4.1/";>here.
+
+
 7 October 2001 - Tomcat 4.0.1 Beta 1 Released
 This is a release candidate for Tomcat 4.0.1, which is a maintenance release
 of Tomcat 4.0. Download it 



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Re: BCEL's first Jakarta version

[Conor MacNeill]

Jason van Zyl wrote:

> 
> I think it's looking pretty good. I volunteer to help with any of the bits
> that might still need to be done.
> 

I'm happy to help too and for what it is worth, you have my +1

Conor


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RE: BCEL @ apache

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> I would volunteer to help the move if it was decided to move it 
> to jakarta.
>  

I can help out here too, if it goes ahead.

Conor


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Re: Viewcvs MIA

[Conor MacNeill]

Missing in Action

- Original Message -
From: "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Viewcvs MIA


> Peter Donald at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Subject saids it all - else checkout http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/
>
> Errr... What's MIA? :)
>
> Pier
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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Re: Viewcvs MIA

[Conor MacNeill]

While we are on the topic of ViewCVS, there seems to be a slight config
issue when you do a "select for diffs". For example, look at this page
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/build.xml?r1=1.173

The coloured diffs link and text appear to be truncated . The text is
missing the closing bracket (I can live with that), while the link is
missing the diff_format=h parameter (which I really would like).

Anyone know how to fix that?

Thanks
Conor

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Viewcvs MIA


> on 8/15/01 10:26 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Subject saids it all - else checkout http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/
>
> We know.
>
> Fixed now.
>
> -jon
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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RE: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> That is why you can filter based on the subject line if you don't want to
> see it. I have been very careful to put [OT] in each of my off topic posts
> here.
>

Oh, I see. Thanks. I didn't see about the [OT] convention described on
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html. Would you like a patch for that
page?

:-)

Conor


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RE: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

[Conor MacNeill]

What is this, some sort of advocacy forum? I can read this sort of crap on
slashdot if I want. IMHO, All this stuff is outside the charter of this
list. Even a flamefest about jars in CVS, or project directory layouts or
something on-topic, would be better :-)

Conor




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Re: Loggers, loggers, all over the place

[Conor MacNeill]

> FACT: Jog4J supports JDK 1.1.x and higher,
> while JogKit only supports JDK 1.2+, and JDK 1.4 logging is only
_officialy_
> available in JDK 1.4.

Not terribly interested in Loggers, but I think I might need a JogKit.
Actually I've got a bit of a mainframe, will Jog4J RUN :-)

I think you may have typed Log too many times !

Conor



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Re: Installing Tomcat on HP-UX 10.20

[Conor MacNeill]

- Original Message -
From: "mysql fan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 12:24 AM
Subject: Installing Tomcat on HP-UX 10.20


> Hi!
>
> I've got installed an Apache Web Server on HPUX 10.20, and I would like
to install Tomcat-Jakarta on it.
>
> Does anyone know the steps to be followed?
>

Step 0 - Read http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html
Step 1 - Send this message to the tomcat-user mailing list

The folks there will be better placed to help you.

Conor






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How times change !!

[Conor MacNeill]

I cam across this old article while searching for something. It gave me a
little chuckle.

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-04-1996/jw-04-newsbriefs_p.html

Conor



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RE: Lucene acceptance in Jakarta

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
>
> Do we have an initial list of committers?
>
> Unless it has a critical mass (read: three active developers), I would
> prefer commons-sandbox over a full fledged project.

Why? It seems that commons-sandbox is becoming a mini sourceforge. I thought
commons was about small independent reusable components. I don't know if
Lucene fits that bill, although it sounds "bigger" that that. IMHO, even
Cactus doesn't really belong there - it should probably be a top-level
project.

Conor




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RE: [GUMP] Build Failure - Turbine

[Conor MacNeill]

> > 3) Developers can't/don't test other projects.
> >This is particularly relevant to ant, but also to some of the XML
> > and (soon) commons modules.
> >A number of build failures have been due to changes in ant.
> >Ant should continue to be free to change things as needed to make
> > ant better, and that will continue to break projects that rely
> > on specific ant features/bugs.
> >Unless the developers are going to rebuild all the dependant
> > projects everytime they make a change, then this will keep
> > happening.
> >
>
> Interesting topic : like any other released package/project/tool with
> users, does Ant ensure that it is backwards compatible with itself, at
> least on major version boundaries?
>
> (I think it should be...)
>

I think the Ant team take backward compatability very seriously.
Nevertheless, sometimes a change is introduced, which, although unintended,
does cause compatability issues. We track Gump closely to catch these
unintended problems and try to resolve them as quickly as practical.

Sometimes we make a change which will flush out problems in build files. Is
that a backward compatability issue? The recent copying of non-existent
files is an example. A number of builds broke because Ant tightened up one
of its checks. What level of backward compatibility are we looking for.
Should we preserve bugs so that nobody ever has to change a build file. I'd
be interested in viewpoints there. Sometimes, even deprecating things in Ant
causes complaints :-)

As Gump is using CVS snapshots we should expect Gump to fail - this is its
benefit. We should be happy when it fails :-)

Conor


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Re: Vacation - Sam Ruby

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: Vacation - Sam Ruby


> If that is the case, there is nothing we can do until Sam gets back, as
> I know that Gump does a cvs update prior to the build process every time.
>
> Scott Sanders
>

Is Sam the only one with access to the Gump checkout directory. Perhaps Sam
checked out a particular version or date which is now sticky?

Conor



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Re: Proposed dirlayout document

[Conor MacNeill]

Ceki,

+1

I agree. Too much optionality in a standard means there is nothing standard
about it. I raised some issues about the original layout. These were just
raising what I thought was the common Jakarta approach to some of these
things.

So, lets have a single approach with little optionality. It should be
non-binding with a goal to move current projects to this standard.

I don't think Ant should dictate the structure. I'm confident it will be
able to support anything reasonable.

Bring it on ...

Conor

- Original Message -
From: "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:13 PM
Subject: Proposed dirlayout document



Hi everyone,

Having recently looked at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/dirlayout.html, my
impression was that it allowed  too many alternatives on a large number of
points rendering the document somewhat confusing (useless?). I am against
making the dirlayout document an exhaustive list of all possible layout
structures. A guideline document should be a bit more assertive.

With your permission I would like to eliminate some of the alternatives.
This is surely going upset some people. I am asking for the permission to
make some potentially controversial  changes. Let me repeat that I do not
consider myself as an expert in ANT or to know the optimal directory
structures.  As such, you are strongly encouraged to make suggestions.

In order to avoid endless discussion, I am willing to cede my role if
anyone volunteers to take up the responsibility for the document. Best
regards, Ceki



--
Ceki Gülcü


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RE: New Subprojects

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Geir Magnusson Jr.
> 
> It also functions simply as a place to work - what goes on in the
> 'sandbox' doesn't have to be an Official Component (tm). 
> 

Sure enough, I guess.

Conor


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RE: New Subprojects

[Conor MacNeill]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Sent: Friday, 23 March 2001 3:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: New Subprojects
>
>
> Peter Donald wrote:
> > > Jon Stevens :
> > > >For #2: It certainly could start in the Commons.
> >
> > No it couldn't from what I understand. Commons won't allow
> imports directly
> > from turbine/avalon and to try to do such a complex system generic from
> > start may be a bit of a PITA at this stage. Especially when both
> > turbine/avalon already offer a lot of support.
>
> Why wouldn't the import be allowed?  That's one of the reasons for
> commons : to provide a place to collaborate across projects...
>

I guess it would depend on their level of coupling, wouldn't it. It is the
difference between a framework and a collection of common utility classes.
When you import framework classes, often it seems to be viral. To use that
one class you end up importing quite a few other supporting classes. That is
what makes the Commons a difficult project, there is often a natural desire
to make it into a framework. The alternative may be a lot of "insulating"
interfaces to allow the components to be plugged into a system without the
supporting framework.

Conor


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RE: Directory layout feedback

[Conor MacNeill]

Jon,

> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> I disagree. Documentation == website. All of the documentation
> for a product
> should be available on the website. The reason is simple...we are creating
> open source. Documentation is lacking in general as well as people to
> maintain it. So, whatever we have, we should make it readily accessible.
>

I think I would see that as website >= Documentation. There is stuff that I
want on the web
(Call for Ant 2 requirements & news, for example) that I don't think is
appropriate in the documentaion that ships with the build.

Additionally, in Ant, we don't have the generated API docs in CVS (or the
web site), which we do have in the distributions.

Perhaps your suggestion of docs/site is the way to go. I'll think about that
for Ant.

> > build directory
> > 
> > Many of the Jakarta projects put the build files in the project's root
> > directory and use the build directory for build results, such as build
> > classes which will be jarred up into the distribution
>
> Right and we are saying it should be "dist/classes" for that directory.

But classes are not part of the "dist" image, if you know what I mean. If
you look at this message,
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=98018389428408&w=2, you will see
that some others also view dist  as an image of the binary distribution and
build as a build area. The idea is to be able to use this dist in-situ as
you are developing (by setting ANT_HOME, in the case of Ant).

Personally, I can live with dist not being a distribution image but I was
just reflecting what I thought was the current common practice. If it is not
the common view, then I would certainly try to move Ant into  line.

>
> > build/lib
> > ==
> > If this is a non-binding recommendation, I don't see why it supports two
> > locations to put the binary jars. It should either be lib or build/lib,
> > IMHO.
>
> The reason is to allow easy *.jar separation of files needed for building
> and files need for running. For example, I do not need ant.jar to run
> Velocity.

Ok, that is clear now. I think this page should make that distinction clear
(yes, I will change the XML :-))

>
> Personally, I like bin/classes. :-) Compromise is a bitch eh? :-)

Indeed.


>
> > Other
> > ==

I'll make some changes to the XML tonight to cover the structure of the
generated distribution (wherever it may end up living) :-)

Conor


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Directory layout feedback

[Conor MacNeill]

Ceki,

I would like to give you some feedback on the common directory layout
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/dirlayout.html

This is mostly from my Ant perspective and somewhat from my impression of
some other common practices in the Jakarta sub-projects. I do realize that
these are just recommendations.

docs directory
=
I have noticed a trend to put the sub-project's web pages into this area. I
wonder is that is a good thing since the web pages and the user
documentation are two different things, IMHO. The web pages are potentially
much more ephemeral than the product documentation that accompanies a
release. When you build a release, it may not make much sense to include
that ephemeral information (such as sub-project news) with the project docs.

For Ant, I made a separate directory for the webpages (webpage). I had to do
this anyway since there was already an index.html file in the Ant docs
directory, although I have subsequently moved that.

build directory

Many of the Jakarta projects put the build files in the project's root
directory and use the build directory for build results, such as build
classes which will be jarred up into the distribution

build/lib
==
If this is a non-binding recommendation, I don't see why it supports two
locations to put the binary jars. It should either be lib or build/lib,
IMHO.

dist
=
I believe this should be a distribution "image" and it is therefore not
really appropriate to place the distribution binaries (.zip, .gz files) in
this location. For Ant, I create the distributions into a directory called
distribution. It contains the source and binary distributions, the latter
being equivalent to the dist directory.

dist/classes
=
I don't believe we want generally want raw classfiles in the dist directory.
Many projects put this into build/classes and place just jars in the dist
directory.

Other
==

I think that there should be a recommendation that any file/dir not under
CVS control should go into the .cvsignore file.

Do we want to make recommendations about the structure of the dist
directory? This is what end-users will actually use and there may be
benefits in a common approach here too. In Ant, for example, we create a
dist/bin directory to contain scripts and executables useful for running
Ant. we also place all generated jars in the dist/lib directory. Perhaps
they are similar or the same as these recommendations.

Cheers
Conor



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RE: Where is the path

[Conor MacNeill]

Andy,

The path to enlightenment lies on the tomcat-user mailing list.

Conor


> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Cole [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2001 1:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Where is the path
>
>
> Hi. Hope that someone can enlighten me. Thanks in advance.
> I tried to understand the coding in the HelloWorldExample for the servlet
> testing..
> In the helloworld.html, it has a code to locate the
> HelloWorldExample class
> file from
> ref="../servlet/HelloWorldExample. This actually redirects to the folders
> for ../WEB-INF/classess/HelloWorldExample.. May I know which file actually
> map ../servlet to ../WEB-INF/classes/?
>
>
> ---
> FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
> Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com
>
>
>
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>
>


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> At 09:50  10/3/01 -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third
Wednesday
> >> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be
fed
> >> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding
Fridays
> >> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.
> >
> >Wed/Thu/Fri 19.00 - 20.00 GMT works for me.
>
> Ouch - 5am ;) I could do that I guess - sucks being the only Aussie ;)

Just keep coding until the meeting starts... :-)


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Re: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> I support the notion of standardization, but some of the Sun conventions
> are just awful, particularly the bit about ending the method declaration
> with a '{'

+1, but I fear it is too widely used in the Java world now :-(

Getting rid of the tabs is a start, though.

Conor




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Re: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

+1 to all your changes





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Re: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

[Conor MacNeill]

Ted,

Let me give my counter point and then I will say no more.

IMHO, for a list to be useful it needs to have a certain critical mass of
subscribers. When there aren't enough people to get a discussion going,
people stop posting. If the messages are few and far between, the list
tends to atrophy altogether. You need community and you need
cross-fertilization of ideas from that community. Maybe it is like the gene
pool - if there aren't enough people participating, it doesn't work.

If there was one list for the commons, more people will be exposed to each
component of the commons. It will make the components more well known.
People may not need a component now but they may remember later a
discussion about some capability. I feel that one of the keys to the
success of the commons will be how well its components are known, because
only then will they be reused.

Conor

- Original Message -
From: "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] The Commons


> Conor MacNeill wrote:
> >
> > Ted,
> >
> > Sounds good to me. I think it would be better to start with one mailing
list
> > so ensure there is enough "mass" in discussions.
>
> I feel strongly that there should be a combined user/dev list for each
> package, and I personally stand by the statement in the FAQ.
>
> --
>
> Why is there a separate mailing list for each package?
>
> It's possible that many users or developers may be interested in a
> single package or two. We feel that if we do not keep the list traffic
> separate, it may be much harder for people to focus on the packages they
> care about. Since this is a volunteer effort, we must be very sensitive
> to the time constraints and attention spans of our developers and users.
> People who have a wider interest can just subscribe to additional lists.
> If this doesn't work out, it would be a simple matter to merge the
> subscription lists later.
>
> --
>
> I believe that if "the unit of reuse is the unit of release", then it
> should also be the unit of subscription.
>
> -Ted.
>
> -
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>
>


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RE: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

[Conor MacNeill]

> Resources:
> May I suggest that the Java coding documentation be amended to require
> *NOT* having tabs in the files. The reason it simple: tabs make it
> nearly impossible to read the CVS commit logs because emails don't
> format properly with tabs.

+1.

I think this should be Jakarta wide, which may be what you meant.



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RE: [PROPOSAL] The Commons

[Conor MacNeill]

Ted,

Sounds good to me. I think it would be better to start with one mailing list
so ensure there is enough "mass" in discussions. Also, I am a bit dubious
about the name "commons" (Don't know if there has been much discussion about
that). The concept of a Commons is often used as an example of things that
get abused because there is no ownership. If the name is up for discussion,
can I suggest the name "substrate"?

Conor



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Re: Action regarding umbrella PMCs

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Roy is not overriding the PMC bylaws, he is simply describing the
original
> intent of the board.
>
> That being said, I agree with Roy.
>

Oh, I agree too. I am just wondering how all this fits together. For
example the recent vote by PMC members on PMC nominees. Is that superceded
by this statement? What is the plan from here?

Conor



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Re: Action regarding umbrella PMCs

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Roy T. Fielding" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> That is, the PMC is supposed to be
> elected by the committers on the project, or include all of the
committers
> on the project, because that's pretty much the only way to ensure that
> what we do remains a true collaboration and doesn't degrade into some
sort
> of consortium or a mirror of our real jobs.
>

This statement would seem to be in conflict with the PMC bylaws.

"New members may be elected to the PMC. In order to be elected, a person
must have served as a Committer and be nominated by a PMC Member. Once
nominated, all of the PMC will vote and those receiving a 3/4 positive vote
will become a member."

Is the ASF board overriding the PMC bylaws just in this instance or does
this principle hold for all PMC appointments? If it is the latter, then do
the bylaws need to be amended to that effect?

Conor



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[PATCH] site news

[Conor MacNeill]

The attached patch adds a news item for the Ant 1.3 release and also
changes the bug database address from betaversion.org to apache.org..

Conor



? patch.txt
Index: site/bugs.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/bugs.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.5
diff -u -w -r1.5 bugs.xml
--- site/bugs.xml   2001/02/08 22:23:17 1.5
+++ site/bugs.xml   2001/03/04 12:57:19
@@ -13,7 +13,7 @@
 
 
 Pier Fumagalli has set up the http://nagoya.betaversion.org/bugzilla/">Apache Bug
+href="http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/">Apache Bug
 Database. Please use this database report bugs and suggest new
 features. To suggest a new feature, set the severity of the bug to
 "enhancement". In case of problems with the Apache Bug Database,
Index: site/news.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/news.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.17
diff -u -w -r1.17 news.xml
--- site/news.xml   2001/02/12 00:57:04 1.17
+++ site/news.xml   2001/03/04 12:57:21
@@ -10,6 +10,17 @@
 
   
 
+03-03-01 - Ant 1.3 Release
+
+
+   The latest release of Ant, version 1.3, is now available for download
+   at the
+   http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/ant/release/v1.3/">Jakarta web site.
+   This release contains many new tasks and a number of bug fixes. 
+
+
+
+
 02-11-01 - James Project Migrated
 
 



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cleaning old addresses

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

I recently sent the Ant 1.3 release announcement to the announcements
mailing list and received a "I do not work here anymore" reply from a user.
How can I (or should I) clean this address out of the mailing list?

Also, it is interesting to note that the announcements list does not set
the ReplyTo header which is the common practice on the other lists. Was
that intentional?

Thanks
Conor



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Re: Proposed Update to the Guidelines

[Conor MacNeill]

Ted,

- Original Message -
From: "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Originally, the Apache Group provided that they could brevet a
> Developer (using our terms) to Committer status for a particular vote,
> so, in that case, a Developer could cast a binding +1 vote. Since
> Committer status is easier to earn here, we have already discussed
> striking that provision, and so should now also strike the word
> "binding" as redundant.

Not sure why you see binding as redundant. Even removing the concept of a
breveted developer, anyone is allowed to vote but only a committer's vote
is binding.

Also, in the paragraph below, does "more +1 votes than -1 votes" imply only
binding +1/-1 votes. For example say there is a vote and 3 committers vote
+1 and four non-committers vote -1, what would happen?

"An action item requiring majority approval must receive at
least 3 binding +1 votes and more +1 votes than -1 votes (i.e., a
majority with a minimum quorum of three positive votes)."

Perhaps we should rewrite the guidelines as a piece of code, so we can all
understand it. We could just run it to sort out any ambiguities :-)

Conor



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What is reuse

[Conor MacNeill]

Continuing the "What is ..." theme.

I don't have a stake in the current DB Connection pooling argument. I don't
use either pool in my day to day work or within Ant. However, I have found
the discussion interesting, especially as I have just read Richard
Gabriel's "Patterns of Software". He deals with reuse a little and I think
he makes some interesting points:

"First you need a central repository of code. It doesn't help if developers
have to go around to other developers to locate code you might be able to
use"

"Second, there has to be a means of locating the right piece of code, which
usually requires a good classification scheme. It does no good to have the
right piece of code if no one can find it."

"Third, there must be good documentation of what each piece of code in the
repository does."

"For a lot of pieces of code it is just plain simpler to write it yourself
than to go through the process of finding and understanding reusable code".

I think this last point is particularly strong in open source projects
where a lot of people want to implement things themselves.

Anyway, what all this says to me is that if we want strong reuse across
Jakarta projects, we need to make reuse easier. We need a way to find code
that can be reused. If we are to have a utility project, then it must
produce not only the code, but a code catalog which facilitates reuse. I
think such a group could range over all the Jakarta projects, looking for
code that can be packaged for reuse. I would prefer to see modules with
little coupling rather than a framework approach. Building such components
can be hard. If we don't want a centralized project to own the code,
another idea could be to have a central catalog maintained across the
Jakarta projects. The Turbine folks, Struts folks, etc could "advertise"
all the modules they provide. There would be implications for how projects
package their software.

So now we have connection pooling code in two places. Duplication isn't
great but it happens, and sometimes it even happens in the same project. It
is a refactoring opportunity. Now that we have recognized that, surely we
can find the best solution, find somewhere for it to live (which may be
where it already lives) and increase our reuse going forward. The bigger
issue is to improve our communications, cataloging, etc so reuse is easier,
going forward.

This seems to me to be exactly the sort of cross-project issue the PMC is
designed to handle. Perhaps the PMC should consider whether to adopt a
policy of reuse across Jakarta projects, what that policy might be, whether
the policy should be promoted through a library subproject, etc.

I can recommend Gabriel's book. It is a fascinating and very different book
about software.

That is my 2 cents worth. Back to releasing Ant 1.3 ...

Conor




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[PATCH] Minor date change on legal page

[Conor MacNeill]

Hi,

I have just converted the Ant webpage to the standard look and feel. I was
checking links and just noticed this minor date update required..

Conor

Index: legal.xml
===
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/legal.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.1
diff -u -w -r1.1 legal.xml
--- legal.xml   2000/11/25 22:59:16 1.1
+++ legal.xml   2001/02/05 12:45:28
@@ -11,7 +11,7 @@
   

 
-All material on this website is Copyright © 1999-2000, The Apache
+All material on this website is Copyright © 1999-2001, The Apache
 Software Foundation
 




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