Re: [VOTE] Release Candidate JMeter 2.3 RC1 - abandoned

[Dion Gillard]

From looking at Struts SVN, I'm guessing that they're built and then tagged

from a revision of trunk and then that tag is voted on for quality.

Maybe one of the Struts/Tomcat committers can explain how they do it? Ted,
Don?

On 7/9/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 09/07/07, Dion Gillard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> sebb,
>
> one of the things I find useful about the build process that httpd,
Struts,
> Tomcat etc use is that it means anyone can do a build and then call for
a
> vote on it's quality.
>
> If this process is streamlined enough, it means feedback can be
extracted
> from people more often and issues discovered earlier.
>
> I know this isn't how things are done ATM with jakarta, but it's worth
> thinking about.

I have been making regular nightly builds available, however it was
only when I created a formal build and called for a vote that various
issues surfaced.

So yes, it could be useful in future.

Do these quality check builds have to be tagged in SVN?
Or can they just be built from the current code line?

> On 7/9/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 04/07/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I've created JMeter 2.3 RC1 in the directory:
> > >
> > > http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/dist
> > >
> > > Site/Docs are here:
> > > http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/site
> > >
> > > All feedback welcome.
> > >
> > > [ ]+1 - the release candidate looks OK, proceed with full release
> > > [ ]-1 - there is a problem (please indicate what it is)
> >
> > Various problems have been found in the release, so I won't be
> > proceeding with it.
> >
> > Thanks for all the feedback so far, which has been very useful.
> >
> > I have been able to fix most of the reported problems, but there are
> > still some outstanding.
> >
> > > sebb AT apache DOT org
> > >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> dIon Gillard
> Rule #131 of Acquisition: Information is Profit.
>

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Re: [VOTE] Release Candidate JMeter 2.3 RC1 - abandoned

[Dion Gillard]

sebb,

one of the things I find useful about the build process that httpd, Struts,
Tomcat etc use is that it means anyone can do a build and then call for a
vote on it's quality.

If this process is streamlined enough, it means feedback can be extracted
from people more often and issues discovered earlier.

I know this isn't how things are done ATM with jakarta, but it's worth
thinking about.

On 7/9/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 04/07/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've created JMeter 2.3 RC1 in the directory:
>
> http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/dist
>
> Site/Docs are here:
> http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/site
>
> All feedback welcome.
>
> [ ]+1 - the release candidate looks OK, proceed with full release
> [ ]-1 - there is a problem (please indicate what it is)

Various problems have been found in the release, so I won't be
proceeding with it.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, which has been very useful.

I have been able to fix most of the reported problems, but there are
still some outstanding.

> sebb AT apache DOT org
>

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Re: [VOTE] Release Candidate JMeter 2.3 RC1

[Dion Gillard]

Sebb,

Just checking is this a vote to release 2.3RC1 from this location or to
release 2.3 from this bundle?

On 7/4/07, sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I've created JMeter 2.3 RC1 in the directory:

http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/dist

Site/Docs are here:
http://people.apache.org/~sebb/jmeter-2.3/site

All feedback welcome.

[ ]+1 - the release candidate looks OK, proceed with full release
[ ]-1 - there is a problem (please indicate what it is)

sebb AT apache DOT org

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Re: Announce: Commons-IO 1.3.2

[Dion Gillard]

Woohoo! Thanks for all the hard work Jochen.

On 7/4/07, Jochen Wiedmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,

the Jakarta Commons Team (or Apache Commons Team, nowadays) is glad to
announce the release of Commons IO 1.3.2. Commons IO is a library of
low-level utilities to assist with developing IO functionality. This
is a bug fix release with the following changes:

- Some tests, which are implicitly assuming a Unix-like file system,
are now skipped
  on Windows. Fixes IO-115.
- Created the FileCleaningTracker, basically a non-static version of
the FileCleaner,
  which can be controlled by the user. Fixes IO-116.
- EndianUtils - both readSwappedUnsignedInteger(...) methods could
return negative
  numbers due to int/long casting. Fixes IO-117. Thanks to Hiroshi Ikeda.

Commons-IO 1.3.2 is available from

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/downloads/downloads_commons-io.cgi

Jochen

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

[Dion Gillard]

Stephen,

I think Sebb does have a valid point.

Using CLI as an example, I'm not sure that there is a shared sense of
responsibility for it.

CLI 1.x has had an issue open against it since 2006-03 with only
recent activity on it, and Henri's comment in that issue from 2007-03
("CLI is still pretty much a dead commons component. No one's actively
working on it.")  is damning evidence.

On 5/23/07, Stephen Colebourne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

- Original Message 
From: sebb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Do all the Commons sub-projects have sufficient numbers ot committers
> to justify them remaining in Commons? For example CLI has not even had
> a formal release yet and has been far less active than JMeter, but is
> still protected by being in Commons.

Commons components are not the equivalent of Jakarta sub-projects.

That is a key factor as to why commons can continue to function, when Jakarta 
has died.

The difference is that everyone is responsible for everything in Commons, 
whereas in Jakarta people only take responsibility for their own area. Now, 
thats not to say that every Commons developer cares equally about every Commons 
component, but there is a strong sense of shared responsibility. Anyone can 
review/support/oppose a commit/idea/release.

Thus, your original question re CLI doesn't really apply in the same way.

Stephen





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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

[Dion Gillard]

On 5/23/07, Niall Pemberton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 5/23/07, Dion Gillard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think  there's another issue here.
>
> Many of those who voted +1, aren't on the initial list of committers
> in the proposal.
>
> Also, many current commons committers aren't on the proposed list.

Yup thats disappointing.


Maybe not all of them follow general@ - I'm crossposting.


> It seems that we're not voting on that specific proposal, rather just
> the idea to move, and that a lot of people are being disenfranchised
> by not being listed.

Its down to people to add themselves to the TLP resolution (they were
invited to do so) - if people are disenfranchised then its their own
choice.


I don't know about that. It seems that a discussion and proposal
taking place on a different list isn't being as inclusive as we should
be.


> Wouldn't it be better if the initial list came from the svn acl?

Would seem wrong to put people on the list without their consent.


It would also seem wrong to 'remove' someone's commit access to the
code by moving it to a TLP without at least keeping the dev list
informed.



Niall

> On 5/23/07, Niall Pemberton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 5/8/07, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sadly a bit too late to make the next board meeting I suspect.
> > >
> > > However, here's a vote for Commons to officially request that it move to 
TLP.
> > >
> > > http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-commons/TLPResolution
> > >
> > > Please add your name if you're a Commons developer and haven't added
> > > your name yet.
> > >
> > > [ ] +1 I support the proposal
> > > [ ] +0 I don't care
> > > [ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...
> > >
> > > Voting will close in one week.
> >
> > Quick summary of this thread 28 Votes for (23 binding), 4 against (3
> > binding). Seems to me that those objecting don't seem to have
> > pursuaded people to change their vote. At what point do we decide on a
> > result?
> >
> > Votes +1 (* indicates binding)
> > 
> > 1.  Henri Yandell(*)
> > 2.  Dennis Lundberg(*)
> > 3.  Mladen Turk(*)
> > 4.  Torsten Curdt(*)
> > 5.  Oliver Heger(*)
> > 6.  Robert Burrell Donkin(*)
> > 7.  Stephen Colebourne(*)
> > 8.  Daniel F. Savarese(*)
> > 9.  Martin Cooper(*)
> > 10. Mark Thomas(*)
> > 11. Niall Pemberton(*)
> > 12. Stefan Bodewig(*)
> > 13. Phil Steitz(*)
> > 14. Jörg Schaible(*)
> > 15. Jean-Frederic(*)
> > 16. Henning Schmiedehausen(*)
> > (conditional on The TLP proposal matching the template)
> > 17. Nick Burch
> > 18. Davanum Srinivas(*)
> > 19. Thomas Vandahl
> > 20. Oliver Zeigermann(*)
> > 21. Rony G. Flatscher(*)
> > 22. Scott Eade(*)
> > 23. Yegor Kozlov
> > 24. Luc Maisonobe
> > 25. Mario Ivankovits(*)
> > 26. Roland Weber(*)
> > 27. Andrew Oliver(*)
> > (think this was a vote for, voted -1 to Commons=Jakarta)
> > 28. Jesse Kuhnert
> >
> > Added themselves to the TLP Proposal but didn't vote(?)
> > 
> > 1.  Jochen Wiedmann
> > 2.  Martin van den Bemt(*)
> > 3.  Matt Benson
> > 4.  Rory Winston(*)
> > 5.  Joerg Pietschmann
> >
> > Objections / Votes -1
> > =
> > 1.  Petar Tahchiev
> > - sees no direct benfits for Commons
> > 2.  Ted Husted(*)
> > - Strike Java from resolution or don't hijack "Commons" Name
> > 3.  Simon Kitching(*)
> > - Will erect walls we took down
> > - like Ted doesn't want java to monopolise "commons" name
> > 4.  Danny Angus(*)
> > - preserve the Jakarta brand
> > - Wants Jkarata==Jakarta Commons
> > - thinks Commons should sort out Jakarta problems
> >
> > Bile & Nonsense
> > ===
> > Jean Carlo Salas

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

[Dion Gillard]

I think  there's another issue here.

Many of those who voted +1, aren't on the initial list of committers
in the proposal.

Also, many current commons committers aren't on the proposed list.

It seems that we're not voting on that specific proposal, rather just
the idea to move, and that a lot of people are being disenfranchised
by not being listed.

Wouldn't it be better if the initial list came from the svn acl?

On 5/23/07, Niall Pemberton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 5/8/07, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sadly a bit too late to make the next board meeting I suspect.
>
> However, here's a vote for Commons to officially request that it move to TLP.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-commons/TLPResolution
>
> Please add your name if you're a Commons developer and haven't added
> your name yet.
>
> [ ] +1 I support the proposal
> [ ] +0 I don't care
> [ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...
>
> Voting will close in one week.

Quick summary of this thread 28 Votes for (23 binding), 4 against (3
binding). Seems to me that those objecting don't seem to have
pursuaded people to change their vote. At what point do we decide on a
result?

Votes +1 (* indicates binding)

1.  Henri Yandell(*)
2.  Dennis Lundberg(*)
3.  Mladen Turk(*)
4.  Torsten Curdt(*)
5.  Oliver Heger(*)
6.  Robert Burrell Donkin(*)
7.  Stephen Colebourne(*)
8.  Daniel F. Savarese(*)
9.  Martin Cooper(*)
10. Mark Thomas(*)
11. Niall Pemberton(*)
12. Stefan Bodewig(*)
13. Phil Steitz(*)
14. Jörg Schaible(*)
15. Jean-Frederic(*)
16. Henning Schmiedehausen(*)
(conditional on The TLP proposal matching the template)
17. Nick Burch
18. Davanum Srinivas(*)
19. Thomas Vandahl
20. Oliver Zeigermann(*)
21. Rony G. Flatscher(*)
22. Scott Eade(*)
23. Yegor Kozlov
24. Luc Maisonobe
25. Mario Ivankovits(*)
26. Roland Weber(*)
27. Andrew Oliver(*)
(think this was a vote for, voted -1 to Commons=Jakarta)
28. Jesse Kuhnert

Added themselves to the TLP Proposal but didn't vote(?)

1.  Jochen Wiedmann
2.  Martin van den Bemt(*)
3.  Matt Benson
4.  Rory Winston(*)
5.  Joerg Pietschmann

Objections / Votes -1
=
1.  Petar Tahchiev
- sees no direct benfits for Commons
2.  Ted Husted(*)
- Strike Java from resolution or don't hijack "Commons" Name
3.  Simon Kitching(*)
- Will erect walls we took down
- like Ted doesn't want java to monopolise "commons" name
4.  Danny Angus(*)
- preserve the Jakarta brand
- Wants Jkarata==Jakarta Commons
- thinks Commons should sort out Jakarta problems

Bile & Nonsense
===
Jean Carlo Salas

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Re: [VOTE] Move Turbine to TLP

[Dion Gillard]

On 4/29/07, Scott Eade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The Turbine project has been discussing a proposal to the board that the
Turbine projects leave the Jakarta umbrella and become their own top
level project.  We are now at the point in the process that calls for a
vote to take place.

The proposal is available at:
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-turbine/TLPTurbine

For the interested, most of the discussion took place in the following
thread:
http://www.nabble.com/-DISCUSS--TLP--tf3574436.html

Here are the vote options:
[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...

Voting will close in one week.


+1 From me.



Thanks,

Scott

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Re: [VOTE] Move Velocity to TLP

[Dion Gillard]

+1.

On 9/16/06, Nathan Bubna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The Velocity project has for some time now been making plans for a
proposal to the board that the Velocity projects leave the Jakarta
umbrella and become their own top level project.  Martin has asked us
to hold a vote on the proposal here before he passes it along to the
board.  So...

The proposal is available for your perusal at:
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/TLPVelocity

For the interested, most of the discussion took place on the following thread:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=11553094014&r=1&w=2

And the vote happens here:
[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...

Thanks!

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Re: [VOTE] Move Jakarta Cactus/JMeter to new Testing TLP

[Dion Gillard]

+1.

It could also be a home to latka, which is out of place here in
jakarta-commons.

On 4/21/06, Martin van den Bemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The options are:
> >
> > [X] +1 I am favorable to the move and would like to contribute to the
> new TLP
> > [  ] +1 I am favorable to the move but would not be participating in the
> new TLP
> > [  ] +0 it does not matter to me
> > [  ] -1 I am against it because 
> >
>
> Same motivation as Yoav and Rahul..
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
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Re: Jakarta embracing the JCP?

[dion]

Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/03/2004 08:52:35 AM:

[snip]
> We already effectively have Expert Groups, we call them the PMC. Project
> Leads, aka active-voice on the project/component. I'm not sure it hurts
> for us to have a project-lead on things, in fact I think it's something
> Apache should have. Defined responsibility.

I've seen this 'defined responsibility' drive people away from projects.

I've also seen projects with a strong leader wallow as their leader has 
gone off and started something new and more fun. Bugs lie unfixed and the 
software stagnates.

Having multiple people share the load is a far better model, IMHO.

> People view this as anti-community, but I think it's pro-community. Who 
is
> responsible to the community for Tomcat 3 at the moment? The community?
> That seems like we're kidding ourselves. The ASF-way merely means that
> it's easy to fill a project-lead gap, or to join in. Not that the
> project-leads don't exist.

[snip]
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Re: [ANN] Tapestry 3.0 rc1 released

[dion]

Was there a vote for it?
--
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Harish Krishnaswamy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 17/03/2004 
11:55:38 PM:

> Tapestry 3.0 Release Candidate 1 has been released.
> 
> -Harish
> 
> 
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Re: [VOTE] HiveMind as a Jakarta sub-project

[dion]

Geir Magnusson Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/03/2004 01:58:41 AM:

> [X] +1  I support this proposal
> [ ] -1  I don't support this proposal
> [ ]  0  I abstain from voting for or against this proposal
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RE: Proposal: Jakarta HiveMind Project

[dion]

"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/03/2004 10:50:44 AM:

> Howard,
> 
> To be clear, this is a proposal to move HiveMind out of Commons Sandbox 
into
> Jakarta proper?  Correct?
> 
> Just to address some of the infrastructure questions that will come up 
if
> this is approved:
> 
> > HiveMind represents a generous donation of code to the ASF by WebCT
> 
> > (3) Identify any Jakarta resources to be created
> > (3.1) mailing lists
> >   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Pretty standard fare.  We'll need some additional information, such as
> moderators, etc.  See 
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-creation-form.txt.
> 
> > (3.2) CVS repositories
> > The package shall use a root branch of the jakarta-hivemind CVS
> repository.
> 
> Not Subversion?

Is there a pressing reason to go subversion?

Are we svn 1.0 capable at this point? 

>From what I can tell the IDE tools (e.g. subclipse) haven't been updated 
for the 1.0 release yet.
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Re: Apache License 2.0 came into effect

[dion]

Martin van den Bemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 29/01/2004 02:02:05 AM:

> The ASF is the copyright holder..

Not exclusively. The original author also retains copyright to any works 
as well, AFAIK.

> Btw just moved a codehaus project to use v 2.0 :)
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 

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Re: Apache License 2.0 came into effect

[dion]

If all licenses must be updated by March 1st 2004, you'd better get us 
some "using" instructions really quickly, e.g.

what goes in  

Copyright [] [name of copyright owner]

for all our existing code? Will someone need to look up the original 
author and all updaters in CVS?
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Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 24/01/2004 12:01:01 PM:

> Hello, Jakarta-Folks,
> 
> Just a note (but very important)
> 
> ++ brief summary ++
> 
> > The Board has approved the new Apache License 2.0. For a copy of that
> > license, please see http://www.apache.org/licenses/.
> > 
> > The Board has also mandated that all ASF software must be switched to
> > the new license by March 1st, 2004. Please watch this space for
> > further instructions on how to "use" the new license.
> 
> -
> 
> ++ description ++
> 
> > The 2.0 version of the Apache License was approved by the ASF (The
> > Board has approved the new Apache License 2.0) in 2004. The goals of
> > this license revision have been to reduce the number of frequently
> > asked questions, to allow the license to be reusable without
> > modification by any project (including non-ASF projects), to allow
> > the license to be included by reference instead of listed in every
> > file, to clarify the license on submission of contributions, to
> > require a patent license on contributions that necessarily infringe
> > the contributor's own patents, and to move comments regarding Apache
> > and other inherited attribution notices to a location outside the
> > license terms (the NOTICE file [1]). 
> > 
> > The result is a license that is compatible with other open source
> > licenses, such as the GPL, and yet still remains true to the original
> > goals of the Apache Group and supportive of collaborative development
> > across both nonprofit and commercial organizations. 
> > 
> > All packages produced by the ASF will be implicitly licensed under
> > the Apache License, version 2.0, unless otherwise explicitly stated. 
> > 
> > For more information, see Apache Licenses Page [2]
> 
> [1] - http://www.apache.org/licenses/example-NOTICE.txt
> [2] - http://www.apache.org/licenses/
> 
> -
> 
> You can also read this above from here:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/elsewhere.html#20040121.1
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> -
> Tetsuya Kitahata --  Terra-International, Inc.
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.terra-intl.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Release of Commons HttpClient 2.0 Beta 1

[dIon Gillard]

Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

> Congratulations, Mike and all of HttpClient team.
> 
> When will it be relected to ibiblio?
It's now up there...

> And (IMHO) it is better to rewrite
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/downloads.html
> 
> 
> commons-httpclient
> 2.0-alpha3
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/
> 
> 
> to
> 
> 
> commons-httpclient
> 2.0-beta1
>     http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/
> 
> 
dIon



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Re: Jakarta-site access & PMC membership for howard lewis ship

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 30/05/2003 12:01:15 AM:

> I'd like to propose that Howard Lewis Ship be given jakarta-site access 
and
+1
> I hereby nominate him for the Jakarta PMC.
+1
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Re: .htaccess and Redirect's

[dion]

Stefan Bodewig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/03/2003 05:21:35 PM:

> On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have any ideas??
> 
> First, there is this here in the top-level .htaccess
> 
> RedirectMatch ^/maven(.*) http:
> //jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven$1

I've removed that line now.

> And then redirects seem to work better, if you leave of the trailing
> slash - well, not really better, it's just for the people who use
> jakarta.a.o/turbine/maven instead of jakarta.a.o/turbine/maven/ when
> typing the URL into the browser.

Done that one too, thanks. But still no cigar.

We don't need a server restart to pick up .htaccess changes do we?

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.htaccess and Redirect's

[dion]

The redirect in the /turbine directory for Maven's move to top level seems 
to be failing.

The .htaccess file contains this line:

Redirect permanent /turbine/maven/ http://maven.apache.org/

But requests to http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/ result in a 404.

Does anyone have any ideas??
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redirect for /turbine/maven to maven.apache.org/

[dion]

Does anyone know how/where this redirect can be set up?

I'm assuming it's in the httpd.conf of the web server on daedalus.

Is this even remotely close?
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Re: turbine cvs and mailing lists?

[dion]

Maven has now moved out of Turbine and Jakarta.

See http://maven.apache.org.

The cvs module is 'maven'.

The user lists are [EMAIL PROTECTED]

All this and more on the web site.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 26/03/2003 08:04:44 AM:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm sorry to bug you all about this but I can't seem to check out any of 
the
> turbine modules (maven was the one I was originaly after) from apache 
cvs
> server. I checked out lucene and ojb and tomcat just to be sure it 
wasn't just
> me. What's up?
> 
> The mailing list seems broken too. I keep getting this when I try to 
subscribe :
> 
> Return-Path: <>
> Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Received: (qmail 71814 invoked by uid 85); 25 Mar 2003 20:47:38 -
> Received: from daedalus.apache.org (HELO apache.org) (208.185.179.12)
>   by mail.cegep-ra.qc.ca with SMTP; 25 Mar 2003 20:47:37 -
> Received: (qmail 39453 invoked for bounce); 25 Mar 2003 20:41:59 -
> Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:41:59 -
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: failure notice
> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-10
> 
> 
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at apache.org.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following 
addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. (#5.1.1)
> 
> --- Below this line is a copy of the message.
> 
> Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Received: (qmail 39414 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2003 20:41:59 -
> Received: from mail.cegep-ra.qc.ca (206.167.23.164)
>   by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 25 Mar 2003 20:41:59 -
> Received: (qmail 71791 invoked by uid 85); 25 Mar 2003 20:47:26 -
> Received: from nat178-001.cegep-ra.qc.ca (HELO TGLMB) (206.167.178.1)
>   by mail.cegep-ra.qc.ca with SMTP; 25 Mar 2003 20:47:25 -
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "David Salib" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "David Salib" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: 
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:41:32 -0600
> Organization: Coll|ege de la region de l'Amiante
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-10
> X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
> 
> Does anybody know what's wrong?
> --
> David Salib
> 
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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

[dion]

Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/03/2003 10:24:53 AM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/03/2003 01:51:36 
AM:
> > 
> >>I nominate Sam Ruby whom I sometimes, often would be too strong of a 
> >>word, disagree with but always respect his integrity and belief in 
> >>community-based software development.  I too would like to see some 
> >>changes, but Sam has outlined, several times, most of the changes that 

> >>I'd actually like to see.  The remainder of which, I'm not certain 
that 
> >>the Jakarta community of the whole has control over.
> >>
> >>One change I do not wish to see are projects which specifically 
exclude 
> >>Apache/Jakarta members due to the cult of personality of one of its 
> >>participants, even its prinicipal participant.  Personally, I mark my 
> >>graduation from pre-pubescence not on any biological definition rather 

> >>the day that I learned to work in close quarters with those whom my 
> >>personality or personal philosophy disagreed with or to extract myself 

> >>from the situation rather than the other way around. 
> > 
> > Could you please elaborate on how these projects have achieved these 
aims 
> > under the current PMC?
> > 
> > I'm very interested in where Apache/Jakarta members have been/are 
> > currently excluded, and how the new PMC will stop this from happening.
> 
> Given the context, I can only presume that Andy was referring to emails 
> such as this one [1].  If I am incorrect, I expect Andy will correct me.

Given [2] and [3], I would have thought it reasonably obvious that this 
was not intended for public review, and that Jason was unusually stressed 
by family events.

This is the second time that particular email has been referenced without 
context, which I find a little inconsiderate to both Nicola and Jason, 
given the cirumstances.

But anyways, Jason is not a project (James is :) ), and, as on most other 
jakarta projects, one person doesn't make the decisions.

Personality conflicts and that one person doesn't 'get along' with another 
is something that we all learn to deal with in real life. That it happens 
@ Apache should be of no great surprise. I don't expect the Jakarta 
Project, or the ASF, to be perfect, and will work around the issues that 
crop up. Other people will do what they see as right.

> How will the new PMC stop this from happening?  I have not specified a 
> timetable for this change to occur (I am being very careful and 
> deliberate in the evolotion of the current structure of Jakarta to 
> conform to the wishes of the ASF board), but the direction Jakarta is 
> heading is to make the release votes of any software from Jakarta to be 
> the purvue of the PMC.  In other words, only PMC members can issue 
> binding votes on such matters.  Note that such votes are by design 
> majority votes, so are not subject to veto.
What does this mean, exactly? 
That if the Jakarta PMC doesn't like the behaviour of one person on a 
project, they will veto the release of software that the person was 
involved in creating? I'm hoping I misunderstand you on this.


[2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104448423329090&w=2
[3] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104448469829716&w=2
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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/03/2003 01:51:36 AM:

> I nominate Sam Ruby whom I sometimes, often would be too strong of a 
> word, disagree with but always respect his integrity and belief in 
> community-based software development.  I too would like to see some 
> changes, but Sam has outlined, several times, most of the changes that 
> I'd actually like to see.  The remainder of which, I'm not certain that 
> the Jakarta community of the whole has control over.
> 
> One change I do not wish to see are projects which specifically exclude 
> Apache/Jakarta members due to the cult of personality of one of its 
> participants, even its prinicipal participant.  Personally, I mark my 
> graduation from pre-pubescence not on any biological definition rather 
> the day that I learned to work in close quarters with those whom my 
> personality or personal philosophy disagreed with or to extract myself 
> from the situation rather than the other way around. 

Could you please elaborate on how these projects have achieved these aims 
under the current PMC?

I'm very interested in where Apache/Jakarta members have been/are 
currently excluded, and how the new PMC will stop this from happening.

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Re: Another unused import statement report is out...

[dion]

Tom, how are you working out the LOC for Maven?

I count approx 280 .java files in the source tree and at 4066 loc, that 
makes approx 15 loc per file. Either we're really efficient, or there's 
something being missed.
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"Tom Copeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 27/02/2003 06:57:50 AM:

> unused imports are down 40% since last November, crikey!
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/~tcopeland/jakarta_bad_imports.htm
> 
> Past reports can be found here - http://cvs.apache.org/~tcopeland/, and
> mad props to the xml-xalan project, who went from 1421 unused imports to
> 2 in the last month.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Tom Copeland
> InfoEther
> 703-486-4543 
> 
> 
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RE: [RESULT] Release 2.3

[dion]

"Howard M. Lewis Ship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 24/02/2003 12:46:21 AM:

> I'd love to do it this way, but its not clear to me how.  Things have 
NOT
> been happening in terms of incubation.  Bug list has not been set up. 
The
> procedures for being a Jakarta project aren't written down ... it seems 
to
> be e-oral tradition.
I'll agree there's not a lot written down and documented. But there are 
lots of people who've been 'Release Manager' recently who are contactable 
via email and lists.

There's also this: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guides.html

Maybe we should start with a list of things to do from the 
incubation-not-happening angle.

A bugzilla or Scarab admin is needed, yes? 

>From http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TapestryToDo, there 
appear to be quite a few issues to be resolved before a release, including 
the distribution of mckoi gpl jars from CVS (
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-tapestry/lib/ext/mckoidb-0.94h.jar )

> I'm also waiting to find out about Maven; we may want to reorganize our
> directory structure to support Maven in the short term and Forrest (for
> Tapestry site documentation) in the medium term.  with Maven we'd have
> nightly builds, and there would be no reason to create so many alpha 
builds.

Gump is also on the todo list, for nightly build processing.

I can help with Maven reorg.

I'm not sure what happened with incubation, but lets get this back on 
track.

> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:33 AM
> > To: Tapestry development
> > Subject: Re: [RESULT] Release 2.3
> > 
> > 
> > It's my understanding that the primary distribution site for 
> > all Jakarta 
> > project releases is to be Jakarta, not sourceforge.
> > 
> > 
> > Give tapestry.sf.net now redirects to Jakarta, shouldn't the 
> > release be 
> > done 'the apache way'?
> > --
> > dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> > Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
> > Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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Licensing again.

[dion]

Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 06/02/2003 03:53:47 AM:

[snip] 
> Code under the ASF License is clearly OK.  As is the IBM Public License
> (the pre-Jakarta BSF, for example) and the MPL (Rhino).  The following
> public domain components are also approved: Antlr and Doug Lea's
> concurrency package.
> 
> Licenses clearly not conforming to the ASF's policies for distribution:
> LGPL, GPL, Sun's Binary Code License.

Could you please explain why ibiblio cannot distribute L/GPL and other 
opensource binaries as long as the license conditions are met?

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Licensing questions

[dion]

For each ASF jar file distributed, we need to distribute the 
license/copyright and conditions from the source of that jar.

e.g. for ant, we need ants LICENSE, for jelly Jelly's license.

Until ASL v2, when all the licenses become the same text, I understand 
that we need a license for each binary distribution of ASF code. Is this 
correct?
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Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 06/02/2003 03:53:47 AM:

> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> > 
> >>Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> >>
> >>>In short, the answer is no, and this applies to any software with
> >>>copyright of The Apache Software Foundation. 
> >>
> >>which brings up a very good point that may have been overlooked:
> >>this applies to anything on ibiblio or elsewhere that is copyright
> >>the asf.  it does not apply strictly to the repositories on the asf
> >>machines, but to the asf *code*.
> 
> This issue has come up before.  This time, let's flatten it.
> 
> In two weeks, there is a board meeting.  At that time, I would like to
> be able to report that the contents of the Maven repository conforms to
> the policies of the Apache Software Foundation.
> 
> Code under the ASF License is clearly OK.  As is the IBM Public License
> (the pre-Jakarta BSF, for example) and the MPL (Rhino).  The following
> public domain components are also approved: Antlr and Doug Lea's
> concurrency package.
> 
> Licenses clearly not conforming to the ASF's policies for distribution:
> LGPL, GPL, Sun's Binary Code License.
> 
> Please direct any questions or comments (including new licenses to be
> considered) to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Some we can resolve for
> ourselves (e.g., the specific public domain packages above).  Others
> I'll batch up and forward to the board and/or licensing folk.
> 
> By the board meeting after that (3rd week in March), I'd like to have
> the infrastructure issues resolved (where should this data should be
> hosted, mirrored, etc).
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
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> ForwardSourceID:NT000AD6BE 

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Re: ASL in non ASF code.

[dion]

Stefan,

do u know where the ant-contrib license is? I can't find it in their 
CVS....
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Stefan Bodewig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 07/02/2003 09:33:23 PM:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Are non-Apache open source projects, e.g. ant-contrib on
> > sourceforge, allowed to be licensed using the ASL?
> 
> I think ant-contrib uses a modified Apache Software License.  It uses
> the same terms but a different copyright holder.
> 
> > From reading the license, how can people assign copyright to the
> > ASF.
> 
> I don't think this is possible and stems from confusion on "people"'s
> side.  Like people copying the (old) BSD license and requiring
> redistributors to give credit to Berkeley.
> 
> Stefan
> 
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ASL in non ASF code.

[dion]

I'm not sure who to address this to, so I figured here would be as good a 
place as any.

Are non-Apache open source projects, e.g. ant-contrib on sourceforge, 
allowed to be licensed using the ASL?

>From reading the license, how can people assign copyright to the ASF. 
Doesn't it need to accept the code?
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

[dion]

"Steve Downey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 07/02/2003 
01:13:24 PM:

> One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
> ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy 
way
> for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of 
the
> license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar 
licenses.
> No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We 
do
> also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
> redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show 
up
> without supporting documentation.
This would better belong on the Maven list.

We are attempting to work out a way of specifying acceptable license 
usage.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

[dion]

news <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 07/02/2003 06:00:32 AM:

> I am talking about this in the context of the other discussions on 
> having an apache repository ( and use the apache mirroring system, etc).
> Also in the context of having a common policy on how releases will
> be distributed and structured - to fit well in such a repository. And 
> the set of tools and conventions that are needed to access the 
repository.

The 'apache repository' and the ones maven can use (note that maven can 
have multiple repositories) are not necessarily one and the same thing. We 
have a 'repository' at a customer site I work on, as well as one at the 
office. Apache hosting its own (of whatever format is agreed) would be a 
good idea, IMHO. Having it mirrored would also be good.

> I agree moving maven to a top level ( apache or jakarta ) is the best 
step,
> but the common repository must be common to apache, and not maven 
specific.
> ( I know that everyone can use maven repository already )
> 
> 
> BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
> includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
> will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
> downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
> lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.

Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution? 
Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we 
all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to 
work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.

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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

[dion]

Costin,

what's a 'maven-only' repository?
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news <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 07/02/2003 04:53:05 AM:

> Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> > Those that care to participate, please indicate your interest by 
posting
> > to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.
> 
> It's up to the board members to decide - but as with Nicola's proposal, 
I'll
> strongly opose ( by not participating :-) a repository/CJAN/etc project 
that
> is not open to all apache committers ( like gump for example ).
> 
> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes. 
> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only 
repository -
> I hope at least some board members will vote -1. 
> 
> Costin
> 
> 
> > 
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
> > Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
> > From: Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Organization: Zenplex
> > Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
> > ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A 
top-level
> > project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an 
SCM
> > package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
> > 
> > I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
> > db.apache.org.
> > 
> > There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
> > agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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Illegal distribution of binaries by Gump

[dion]

I've noticed that Gump distributes (via gump.covalent.net)  several jar 
files which appear to violate the license agreements found in the 
projects.

- xmlunit: The license requires:
"* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
   copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following
   disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided
   with the distribution.
"

- Various xdoclet jars:
"Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, 
this
list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation 
and/or
other materials provided with the distribution."

- Werkz:
" 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the
above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the
following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other
materials provided with the distribution."

I'm sure there are many more.

Can someone please comment?
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Re: [Proposal] Jakarta Ruper

[dion]

Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 06/02/2003 08:53:20 AM:

> Costin Manolache wrote, On 05/02/2003 22.14:
> > I am not very happy with the maven layout - which includes only jars. 

This is not correct. The maven repository structure includes many 
deliverable types, not just jars.

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Re: [DRAFT1] Jakarta Newsletter - January 2003

[dion]

Rob,

do you want updates emailed to you, posted to the list, entered in the 
wiki??
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Jeffrey Dever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/02/2003 11:24:27 AM:

> Commons HttpClient
> 
> Release 2.0 Alpha 2!
> After many months and a great resurgence of developers, the new build of 

> /HttpClient/ is finally here. The new group of developers has done 
> extensive refactoring to move the project along the new vision. The code 

> base has reached a significant level of maturity and we expect that 
> another released build (possibly a beta) will be ready near the end of 
> February
> 
> Also check out the new /HttpClient/ logo on the website created by Jeff 
> Dever with the Gimp!  http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/
> 
> 
> 


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Re: The Jakarta Site Was: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[dion]

Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 02:28:59 PM:

[snip]
> However, a consistent skin might actually be the best way to get a
> consistently labelled and functional site together.
> 
> Now I get to disagree with Dion :) His list of important things, the 
ones
> Maven produce, are by and large not important. The important things are
> the ones the user cares about:
They're important to me as a developer. As a user, yeah it's a different 
list.

How about we give these items some names:

> 1) Where do I download?
Downloads
> 2) Has their been a release?
Release Notes
> 3) Where are the tutorials/documentation?
Documentation
> 4) How do I complain about a bug?
Bugs
> 5) Where do I ask a question?
Mailing Lists

> and then more minor questions like:
> 
> 6) So who is behind Project X?
Team Members
> 7) What Apache community does Project X belong to?
What's an Apache community? Do you mean 'top-level project'?

[snippage]
> Those who can't do, complain. But I'm happy to be a member of both sets. 
I
> believe the first step is to actually try to cross-manage the site. Tbh, 
I
What's cross-management?

> Once a site-wide contract for labelling and minimum functionality is
> ironed out, each particular look and feel, project and generational tool
> are free to enhance it as much as they want, as long as they:
> 
> eg) Provide a link called 'Download nightly build'  or whatever.
Cool.

Let's take a stab at it then.

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Re: [Discussion] (Fake)Forrest for Jakarta!

[dion]

Content of the site is far more important to me than the skin.

I'd much rather we had all projects/sites listing a common, agreed upon 
set of information that is useful. For example, the set of reports maven 
produces under the heading Project Info (see 
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/project-info.html ), along with 
source cross reference and javadocs, cvs activity reporting, unit test and 
'style conformance'.

Skins are secondary for me. If we could get consistent content across 
Jakarta, having a consistent look and feel would be the next step. But 
having everything look pretty but be incomplete is not much of a step up.

So, how about getting some consistency in our navigation and content as 
part of the process?
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Glen Stampoultzis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/01/2003 12:44:53 
PM:

> Hi.  I think this is important and I would love to see some unification 
of 
> skins on Apache.  While we may choose to use different tools to build 
our 
> sites but I think we should push to make the look of the project 
> consistent.  The current mess of different skins makes the site look 
sloppy.
> 
> Agree/disagree?  Lets hear your opinion.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Glen Stampoultzis
> 
> 
> At 08:42 AM 30/01/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> >Hi all!
> >
> >I saw the "Tapestry" discussion, and this remindet me, that I wanted to
> >"carry" FakeForrest to Jakarta!
> >
> >So what is it? Simple: It's a set of 2 Velocity/Anakia template-files 
and
> >some images. The Velocity templates are build upon the Jakarta-ones and
> >follow the Jakarta-Anakia-DTD!
> >
> >What does it? It renders Anakia-build websites with the (current - with 
some
> >small modifications - see below) Forrest skin.
> >
> >Where can I find it? We currently use this to build the
> >http://ant.apache.org website so you can preview the result there and 
the
> >sources are in the Ant-cvs
> >http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/xdocs/stylesheets/.
> >
> >Why should we use it? IMHO it is the FASTEST way to provide a nice,
> >functional and consistent look of the entire xxx.apache.org website!
> >
> >Are there any limitations? Yes: Currently there are no multiple tabs 
for
> >menues on the left side, but this can easyly be solved by allowing 
multiple
> >menu-sections in the proect.xml
> >
> >Additionally: We (Conor ;)) recently fixed some incompatibilities with 
the
> >HTML 4.01 standard so it now generates validatable HTML 4.01 code! It's
> >proved, it works, it's nice ;).
> >
> >Remark: I do not see Fake-Forrest as the final solution, but its a nice 
and
> >fast way in moving to a nice new, consisten etc. look of the Apache 
website,
> >as I said before!
> >
> >Thoughts?
> >Christoph
> >
> >-
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: Forum Software.

[dion]

Ick,

I don't want a forum unless it also is a mailing list....
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Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 23/01/2003 03:41:27 AM:

> 
> So the suggestion is:
> 
> All Users lists become forums.
> Developer lists stay.
> 
> 
> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as 
much
> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
> 
> 
> Hen
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> 
> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton
> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> >
> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists
> > for forum software.
> >
> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> >
> > -- Robert Simmons
> 
> 
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Re: Incubator home page (was Tapestry)

[dion]

Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 05/01/2003 10:47:30 PM:

> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 05/01/2003 09:00:24 
PM:
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>>This is one of my least favourite features of this forrest skin. 
> >>
> >>Look at this version, which is a modified forrest skin, if it's 
better:
> >>http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/
> >>
> >>I took all the suggestions from users like this one and made that skin 

> >>from the Forrest one. We will evaluate what users prefer from this one 

> >>for the next CSS-only Forrest skin version coming out soon.
> > 
> > I can't tell from that page if the left menu will grow to the right 
> > forever or not if there are some long names.
> > 
> > That's my main beef with the previous one.
> 
> Look at this them:
> http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/manual/howTo-startProject/module.html

Better,  but I'd prefer they were wrapped rather than concatenated.

> Long ones are truncated.
> 
> Smaller fonts + truncation looks like a solution for me, no?

As above. Smaller fonts + truncation would be my second choice.

> > Like Jon has said, that left nav bar chewing 30+% of the page is a 
killer 
> > from a usability angle.
> 
> Exactly why I made this other version.
> So, is it better?
Yep, definitely better. Still not 'good', but it's acceptable.
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Re: Incubator home page (was Tapestry)

[dion]

Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 05/01/2003 09:00:24 PM:

> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > This is one of my least favourite features of this forrest skin. 
> 
> Look at this version, which is a modified forrest skin, if it's better:
> http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/
> 
> I took all the suggestions from users like this one and made that skin 
> from the Forrest one. We will evaluate what users prefer from this one 
> for the next CSS-only Forrest skin version coming out soon.

I can't tell from that page if the left menu will grow to the right 
forever or not if there are some long names.

That's my main beef with the previous one.

Like Jon has said, that left nav bar chewing 30+% of the page is a killer 
from a usability angle.
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Incubator home page (was Tapestry)

[dion]

This is one of my least favourite features of this forrest skin. 
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Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 05/01/2003 10:57:21 AM:

> on 2003/1/4 2:54 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Please subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you are interested
> > in participating in the Tapestry incubation process.
> > 
> > Thank you,
> > 
> > Andy
> > 
> 
> What is up with the left hand side of the layout taking up ~45% of the 
page?
> 
> http://studioz.tv/huge-margin.pdf
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
> StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
> 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
> http://studioz.tv/
> 
> 
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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[dion]

And if you're really interested in getting Java code running on .NET, a 
friend of mine in the Netherlands has a JDK running on .NET that will run 
James from Jakarta, and is now trying Eclipse....
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James Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 06/12/2002 12:00:44 PM:

> > >The Question I have for everybody here is does anyone have any 
interest in 
> > >Porting any of the other jakarta projects to C# so that they may 
> be able to 
> > >run on Mono/Linux/windows & .Net/Micorsoft ?
> > >
> > what this sppose to mean
> > ppl, why want you to support C#!
> 
> Sticky issue, but from one perspective you could say that C# / CL* have
> more potential to be an open platform than java at the moment,
> considering that Microsoft has submitted most of the base platform to
> ECMA, while Sun still has a strangle-hold on Java...
> 
> > ok, if so, then long live Mr.Miscro$of and make me suffer for paying 
you 
> > extra money for buggy software :(
> > 
> > by the way, don't forget to change it
> > from "Apache Software Foundation"
> > to ".Net Apache Software Foundation " :P
> 
> The foundation is platform and language agnostic already, they own /
> steward projects written in C / Java / Perl / Python / ... and that run
> on many many platforms.
> 
> > i will leave Apache system if you used any Micro$oft products.
> > when you support Micro$oft you help in KILLING an open source project 
:'(
> 
> To be fair, it may be possible to implement CL* version of various
> projects without using or requiring any Microsoft product. Especially
> the many useful server side components that live at Jakarta. You might
> look at NLucene as an example.
> 
> I'd investigate the relationship between Microsoft and the pieces of the
> .NET platform before becoming too upset about this. You might be
> surprised (or I might be =)
> 
> But really, as long as someone is interested in doing the work, more
> quality software that gives more people more options is not a bad thing.
> 
> --jt
> 
> 
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Re: IDE Developers' guide

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 26/11/2002 02:12:07 AM:

> >
> >
> >>
> >> I'm not familiar enough with Maven's recent developments to write on 
> >> this.  Perhaps you could contribute?  I'm also not sure how many 
> >> projects there are that are currently using Maven, however, since 
> >> this seems to be expanding I suspect it would be worthwhile.
> >
> >
> > Ok, I'll try to get something down in the next couple of days - I've 
> > got a release today. I'm afraid I've been using Maven as an excuse to 
> > switch back to Emacs from NetBeans - they play together well - but I 
> > am actually meant to be writing up something like this anyway, for 
> > folk in my company; we're trying a few small, new projects with Maven. 

> > Wouldn't stuff like this be better in the Ant/Maven docs though?
> 
> 
> Perhaps it would.  What do you think?
I'm happy to put the documentation into Maven. Just pop it into 
turbine-maven-user, or into the bug tracking system, or email me, or... :)
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Re: IDE Developers' guide

[dion]

Brian Ewins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 25/11/2002 
11:03:32 PM:

> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 
> > One of the things I find most frustrating is dealing with "IDE 
> > Developers", meaning those "developers" who cut their teeth on
> > Microsoft tools and never learned how to even set their PATH let alone 

> > their classpath. 

And why the heck should they? Any decent software worth it's salt doesn't 
make the user touch their classpath :)

> Actually using Ant (or Maven) from an IDE is easy enough. The tricky bit 

> is getting the IDE to see the same classpath that the build script uses, 

> for code completion and the like. I noticed the Maven to Eclipse 
> integration for example tries to work by allowing you to generate a file 

> containing the classpath - seems like a decent approach; if all IDEs 
> supported something like this - and Ant scripts were written to support 
> it - life would be easy.

Have you seen the Maven eclipse integration that adds all the maven goals 
into the IDE and runs them background, rather than modally?

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Re: cvs commit: jakarta-site/docs/site idedev-rdtomcat.html

[dion]

Shouldn't this be in the tomcat docs, rather than in site??
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 25/11/2002 07:26:31 AM:

> acoliver2002/11/24 12:26:31
> 
>   Added:   xdocs/site idedev-rdtomcat.xml
>docs/site idedev-rdtomcat.html
>   Log:
>   instructions for making tomcat remote debuggable
> 
>   Revision  ChangesPath
>   1.1  jakarta-site/xdocs/site/idedev-rdtomcat.xml
> 
>   Index: idedev-rdtomcat.xml
>   ===
>   
>   
> 
> 
>   Andrew C. Oliver
>   IDE Developer's Guide - Setting up Tomcat for Remote 
> Debugging
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>  
>   So you're ready to take the leap?  You're going to edit a batch 
file! 
>   Take a deep breath, now go to http://vim.sourceforge.net
> ">VIM Online and download "vi for windows" so that you have a 
> decent editor to use...
>   I'm only kidding.  (You should know this guide is written using 
vim but
>   your computer, your choice ;-)).  We'll step you through the 
basics and 
>   what to stick in the file (its really simple) and you just use
> your favorite
>   editor to edit the file.  Just ensure that your editor saves 
> the file back
>   in text format and doesn't adorn it with markup or special 
> characters, etc.
>  
> 
> 
>  
>   Make sure Tomcat isn't running as a service.  I don't think 
> you can remote
>   debug a service, and running it this way isn't too useful for 
> development.
>   Goto Start->Settings->Control Panel->Administrative 
Tools->Services
>   (in each version of Windows these move around so you may have to 
look
>   for them).  Look for "Apache Tomcat" or "Tomcat" or something 
> to that effect
>   and stop it.  Open its properties and switch it to "Manual" if it 
is 
>   currently loading Automatically.  Once your done, close all that 
stuff.
>  
> 
> 
>  
>   Make sure that Tomcat isn't running already.  Presumably, you've 
shut it
>   down as a service, and know how to shut it down as a shell script 
if you
>   started it that way. 
>  
>  
>   Open the Windows Explorer (not Internet Explorer.  Open the 
> thing you use
>   to move files and folders around).  Navigate to where you 
installed 
>   Tomcat.  (Probably C:\Program files\Apache Tomcat...)  Now 
> navigate under
>   it to the "bin" subdirectory and edit a file called "catalina.
> bat" in your
>   favorite editor.  Scroll down to the line that says: 
>   "rem Guess CATALINA_HOME if not defined" and just before it 
> add this line
>   via cut and paste (don't worry, you don't need to know what most 
of this
>   means...I sure as heck don't!): 
>   "SET CATALINA_OPTS=-server -Xdebug -Xnoagent -Djava.
> compiler=NONE -Xrunjdwp:transport=dt_socket,server=y,suspend=n,
> address=8000" minus the quotes of course.
>   Save and exit.
>  
>  
>   So what did that do for you?  Well later on in the script the 
> contents of
>   CATALINA_OPTS are passed to the "java" command.  You could also 
enable
>   remote debugging for other programs by making sure the contents of 
this
>   after the equal sign were passed to the "java" command.  These
> options tell
>   the java command not to run the http://java.sun.
> com/products/hotspot/">HotSpot compiler, enable the remote 
> debugging, and most importantly to
>   communicate with your IDE on port 8000 (that last part is the 
> thing you're
>   most likely to change so note that!).  If something else is 
> already running
>   on port 8000, change this to something a little higher or lower 
(but not
>   8080 because thats probably where tomcat is running you know). 
>  
> 
> 
>  
>   So now you're ready to start tomcat as a shell script. 
> Provided you have 
>   TOMCAT_HOME and JAVA_HOME defined already you can probably 
> double click the
>   "startup.bat" (which later runs catalina.bat), if not then you 
should 
>   probably define those by right clicking on "My Computer" (from
> the desktop)
>   and clicking "properties" then the "advanced" tab and 
> "environment variables". 
>  
>

Re: Mozilla mail filters

[dion]

This is cool Pier, thanks!

Let me/us know when it does move over. This is a *load* better than 
futzing with email
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Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 15/11/2002 01:02:20 PM:

> On 15/11/02 0:50 "Stéphane MOR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I think we could link to the file from the "Mailing Lists" section
> > of jakarta-site2.
> > 
> > Any thoughts ?
> 
> Yes, start using news.betaversion.org (which will move to 
news.apache.org
> once I'm over my friggin deadline), which works with mozilla and filters
> messages for you (and expires them after one month so that you won't 
clog up
> your local cache)...
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
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Re: New Jakarta logo to push live

[dion]

Is there a version with a transparent background?
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Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 07/11/2002 12:24:22 AM:

> 
> To make the Jakarta Logo more evident in the affiliation to Apache, and 
> to make it nicer, we've made a new version of it, similar to the one on 
> www.apache.org.
> 
> There have been comments on the general list about it, and I've 
> committed the results, which it seems we all agree on, in the 
> jakarta-site2 CVS module.
> 
> There is a normal version (gif&svg), a special blue-background version 
> for Maven sites (gif&svg), and png version with trasparent background.
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/jakarta-
> site2/xdocs/images/jakarta-logo.gif?rev=HEAD&content-type=image/gif
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/jakarta-
> site2/xdocs/images/jakarta-logo-blue.gif?rev=HEAD&content-type=image/gif
> 
> Can someone please push it live?
> 
> -- 
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> -
> 
> 
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Re: Adding Lists to EyeBrowse - how?

[dion]

Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 31/10/2002 10:10:35 AM:

> When you got some time... Andy managed without Eyebrowse for ever, he 
can
> manage another few days! :-)
> 
> As a sidenote, guys, when you have problems with infrastructure and 
mail,
> please, keep posted also the infrastructure@apache or apmail@apache 
mailing
> lists... There are a lot of more people having a clue over there and not
> just me... (And I'm talking about _real_ unix admins! :-)

Will do, and thanks again for your time and effort Pier.
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Apache Jakarta BSF

[dion]

I believe BSF has been approved for inclusion as part of the Jakarta 
Project.

Is there anything I can do to help this happen? February is a long time in 
the past, and as a past user of BSF, and a Jakarta committer I'd be happy 
to help where I can.

Also, have mailing lists etc been setup? I haven't seen them anywhere...?
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- Forwarded by dIon Gillard/Multitask Consulting/AU on 30/10/2002 
07:16 PM -

"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 30/10/2002 06:52:44 PM:

> Dion,
> 
> For BSF?  IBM originally raised the subject on the BSF mailing list in 
June
> of 2001, and it was officially approved by the ASF during the Feb 27, 
2002
> Board Meeting.
> 
> ref: 
http://www-124.ibm.com/pipermail/bsf-discussion/2001-June/000271.html
> 
> 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_02_
> 27.txt
> 
> I been talking with Chuck Murcko, who is doing the repository setup.  He
> told me today that he expects to be good to go within the next couple of
> days.
> 
>--- Noel
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:dion@;multitask.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:35
> 
> Noel,
> 
> do you know when/where the Jakarta nominations have taken place?
> 
> I'm fairly involved there and haven't seen it..
> 
> "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 30/10/2002 08:41:09 AM:
> 
> > Robert,
> >
> > Tomcat is the primary hosting engine (behind apache), although we 
still
> > have sites that need to migrate from GNUJSP.  I haven't tried putting 
up
> any
> > EJB (e.g., EJBoss) support.  On the other hand, we'll be running 
Tomcat 5
> as
> > soon as it looks stable.  I want JSP v2 support.
> >
> > Python is installed (not mod_python, yet) but no one is using it, 
unlike
> > perl.
> >
> > FWIW, I also came across something called Spyce, which is essentially 
an
> > attempt to clone JSP using Python as the language.  Reading his 
project
> > rationale, it occured to me what a widespread myth it is that Java is
> > THE programming language for JSP pages.  More engines really ought to
> pickup
> > BSF and deploy multiple scripting languages.  Hopefully that will 
happen
> > after BSF appears as a Jakarta project.  It is supposed to happen by 
Nov
> 1. Of
> > course, they first talked about moving it in Jun 2001 ... Meanwhile
> > incredible hours are wasted on deadend projects that could be invested
> > in integrating a new language into JSP.
> >
> >--- Noel
> 
> 
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
> Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/JjlUgA/vN2EAA/kG8FAA/saFolB/TM
> -~->
> 
> 
> http://www.bobrow.net/kimberly/JavaSummit for info on 
> subscribing/unsubscribing 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
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> 
> 

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Re: Adding Lists to EyeBrowse - how?

[dion]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 30/10/2002 06:32:31 PM:

> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Yeah...  Like POI... sniff...
> 
> I heard you the first time (of course I just read it a few minutes
> ago).  ;)  I will do it when I have time.

If there's anything I can do, just let me know.

> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > EyeBrowse is a great facility - how do we add other Apache mailing
> > > lists to it?
> 
> It would be one hell of a lot easier if all the mailing lists were
> actually hosted on nagoya.  Addition of lists and indexes is a manual
> process, handled via commandline programs.  A while back, I sent mail
> to Jason van Zyl outlining the steps for inclusion into the
> infrastructure documentation for nagoya, but I'm not certain whether
> it ever made it (can't remember where that page is in CVS).  Adoption
> of a SourceCast-based infrastructure would automate all of this.

If you dig this up and just want a command line slave, I'm happy to 
volunteer.

> *sigh*
> 
> I'm actually working on updating nagoya to the latest Eyebrowse code
> and schema, which contains some bug fixes and drastically increases
> the performance of the ViewLists servlet.
Cool.

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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

It'd be a piece of cake to add a velocity tag to Jelly....
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/10/2002 05:22:30 AM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM:
> > 
> > > Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > 
> > > > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it 
produces 
> > the
> > > > best code for the long term.
> > > > 
> > > > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces 
the
> > > > crappiest code for the long term.
> > > 
> > > mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> > > clever balance between the two.
> > > 
> > > > XML IS NOT A PROGAMMING LANGUAGE.
> > > 
> > > For certain!  This is one of my biggest issues with Ant and
> > > Jelly/Maven -- working with them is just ... icky.
> > 
> > So use the script tag in Ant/Jelly.
> 
> Don't I then have to rely on an external scripting system -- Jython,
> for instance?
> -- 
> 
> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
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Re: Dear incubator

[dion]

Since the discussion was initiated here on general@jakarta, I'd prefer we 
kept it here until there is a way forward via incubator, rather than move 
it off to yet another list.


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"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 27/10/2002 11:30:10 AM:

> Dear incubator,
> 
> I feel like I'm speaking to the wizard of Oz posting to a list I can't 
> see ;-)
> 
> Tapestry (tapestry.sourceforge.net) is a web app framework similar in 
> use and scope to Velocity/turbine and JSP/Struts, but certainly very 
> different in approach.
> 
> dIon Gillard and I have both agreed to help with the transition. 
> However we both feel the first step is for the tapestry community 
> (to whom's mail list I am now subscribed) to adopt apache voting rules (
> http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html) before joining.  once 
> they've demonstrated this transition and identified 3 core 
> committers, we should identify whether they go through some new 
> process or identify the new incubator process.  Whatever the case 
> they should not be unduely lubricated through the guidelines, nor 
> unduely inhibited by the transition.  I think we're all up to this 
> challenge and this could (hopefully) set a very nice precident.
> 
> To this end and to the ends of providing more interaction between 
> the various elements here at apache, I would like to suggest Ken 
> Coar whom I have approached as the "member sponsor" and "advisor" of
> the project and has stated his interest.  His experience and 
> abillities will be an asset to this transition as well as provide 
> greater insight to the rest of the Apache community on the goings on
> of a Java/Jakarta project.
> 
> I'd like to start a conversation on what the process/guidelines for 
> accepting Tapestry should be at the same time and what its path for 
> acceptance as either a Jakarta project or top level apache project 
should be.
> 
> I would suggest that this discussion happen on the community at 
> apache list and move to the general at jakarta list if deemed 
> appropriate as dion and I cannot participate in the pmc@incubator 
> list nor can the project principals.
> 
> Thanks for your support,
> 
> Andrew C. Oliver
> committer POI, Lucene
> contributer Cocoon, JAMES
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Apache reorganization.... make all XML projects top level... future ofXML.apache.org unknown

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 25/10/2002 
11:04:45 PM:

> >
> >
> >> u seen eyebrowse:
> >>
> >> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ViewLists
> >>
> >> It holds all the xml lists. It has a format for a list like this:
> >> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=47 
though.
> >
> No it doesn't.  It says 0 for POI there have certainly been more 
> than 0 posts
> :-(

So let's get it fixed
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Adding Lists to EyeBrowse - how?

[dion]

EyeBrowse is a great facility - how do we add other Apache mailing lists 
to it?
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Re: [Fwd: Re: [eclipse-dev] Java compiler defaults changed]

[dion]

Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 24/10/2002 09:21:02 AM:

> on 2002/10/23 2:24 PM, "Tom Copeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Speaking of mass source code analysis, here's some of the Sourceforge
> > projects and their unused code stats (unused locals, unused fields,
> > etc):
> > 
> > http://pmd.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/webpmd.pl
> > 
> > I thought about doing a similar page for Jakarta projects - just use 
the
> > anonymous CVS access for each Jakarta project, run PMD on it, pipe the
> > output to a file, and link it all together - but perhaps that would be
> > annoying
> > 
> > Yours,
> > 
> > Tom
> 
> Maven uses various plugins to essentially produce this same data (and 
more).
Just in case you didn't know, Jon, PMD is available as a Maven plugin.

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Re: Naming issues

[dion]

> > Therefor I still think Jakarta Commons should fix their naming scheme.
> > But that will have to be brought up there, not here.
> 
> It's completely impractical, and will hurt Jakarta immensely.
> 
> Oh, well, now that I think of it, this is only for projects that have 
> already been released...
> 
> Other opinions?

Has everyone forgotten that it's not just commons that uses 
org.apache. as their java package name within Jakarta.

Ant is org.apache.tools.ant
Turbine is org.apache.turbine
Velocity is org.apache.velocity
Struts is org.apache.struts
etc.

I don't see a realistic proposal being made that renames all of the 
Jakarta Project source code.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

Vic,

I'm acutely aware of Tiles and they are inscrutable to the average user. 
There are also lots of issues with Tiles fitting in with Struts 1.1 beta 
from memory.

It's telling that the documentation you give is from outside of the struts 
doc

news <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 21/10/2002 11:00:48 AM:
> Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
> and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
> advanced capabilities.
> http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
> and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
> where).
> 
> .V
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

John McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/10/2002 04:29:17 AM:

[snip] 
> As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
> development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
> technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
> conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
> well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
> only usable within the framework?

No, and that's where tapestry is different. Tapestry is a component 
framework, not a template engine. Think Swing components as an example.

> Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
> reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
> overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
> Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
> within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
> offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
> original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.

I've looked @ Tapestry in quite a bit of detail, and it does offer 
something different to Struts and Turbine, in that it focusses squarely on 
components and reuse.

There is a dearth of reusable components for Struts, simply because the 
JSP model doesn't lend itself to components very well, hence JSPTL and 
JSFaces.

Turbine has good component support for non-GUI components, but the 
template engine again doesn't lend itself to component embedding and 
reuse.

My 2c Aus
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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM:

> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces 
the
> > best code for the long term.
> > 
> > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> > crappiest code for the long term.
> 
> mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> clever balance between the two.
> 
> > XML IS NOT A PROGAMMING LANGUAGE.
> 
> For certain!  This is one of my biggest issues with Ant and
> Jelly/Maven -- working with them is just ... icky.

So use the script tag in Ant/Jelly.

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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

Scott Eade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 10:12:33 AM:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > #if (..)
> > #end
> > 
> > in Velocity...?
> > 
> >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 
AM:
> >> 
> >> <% 
> >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
> >>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> >> } 
> >> %>
> 
> But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer 
(non-programmer)
> than the JSP.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

I really shouldn't have replied before, but since i did

we've been over this a million times before, and the ymtd document has 
some glaring inconsistencies I've pointed out years ago wrt the struts 
version of things. Using it as a prop in these arguments is a major 
woftam.

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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

[dion]

And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than

#if (..)
#end

in Velocity...?
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"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:

> Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
> nastiness of it.
> 
> <% 
> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
> } 
> %>
> 
> -Andy
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me...  ;-) (I 
just
> > > couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
> > 
> > It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy 
Gonzales"
> > version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> > libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! 
:-)
> > 
> > Plus it has its own editor, Kettle, (kinda Goofy, but far from being a 
cheap
> > Scrooge version of an IDE), and it's BSD (thanks to our Brian "Donald"
> > Behlendorf who lured them into believing that Open Source is a "good
> > thing").
> > 
> > Quack
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> -- 
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java 
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
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Re: [Poll result] Committers, who are we?

[dion]

I was there for 6 months over 10 years ago, does that count? I don't think 
Sydney, Australia could be considered California-based though :)
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Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 05/10/2002 11:44:19 AM:

> On 4/10/02 14:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I'd be more interested to hear statistics on how many people are
> > California-based versus non-California based.  (It would help me with 
my
> > research into Apache cultures and cliches ;-) for a paper I'm writing 
)
> 
> More than "being" in CA, I would say, how many of us have "been there" 
and
> did the "Silicon Valley" thing... I'm saying that because I spent 2 
years in
> CA, and feel strongly related to that environment... Only thing is now I
> live in London (UK)...
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
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Re: Jakarta.apache.org and Spam or junk mail threshold

[Mr Dion Gillard]

Thanks Pier,

--- Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 29/9/02 10:49 am, "Mr Dion Gillard"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > -
> > SMTP Protocol Returned a Permanent Error 553 Spam
> or
> > junk mail threshold exceeded. See
> > http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1)
> > -
> > 
> > Searching their database results in a 500 http
> > response :-(
> 
> (quoting)
[snip flame.org quoting]

Yep, read it all, and checked my mail logs. Nothing
funny happening AFAICT.

> > Any suggestions?
> 
> Write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for those kind of stuff,
> and it'll be better to
> see also a message with full headers

Will send one ASAP.

Thanks again.

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Jakarta.apache.org and Spam or junk mail threshold

[Mr Dion Gillard]

Today I started getting email bouncing (from my
[EMAIL PROTECTED] address) from jakarta.apache.org
with the following message:

-
SMTP Protocol Returned a Permanent Error 553 Spam or
junk mail threshold exceeded. See 
http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1)
-

Searching their database results in a 500 http
response :-(

I checked MAPS RBL and we're not listed there.

I successfully emailed @ 1:30pm my time, and the
messages started bouncing @3:24 my time.

Any suggestions?


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More documentation tools

[dion]

And now for another tool producing documentation @ Apache...
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- Forwarded by dIon Gillard/Multitask Consulting/AU on 06/20/02 05:24
AM -
   

Andy Clark 

 cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Subject: [Announce] CyberNeko Tools for 
XNI 2002.06.18 Available  
06/18/02 10:15 

PM 

Please respond 

to general 

   

   





When I made the announcement a few days ago about the
first version of the CyberNeko Tools for XNI, I was
busy working on another tool. At the time, it wasn't
quite ready for release so I pushed out the first
collection of tools without it. But now it's ready! :)

I am pleased to announce the 2002.06.18 release of
NekoXNI! This release adds a new tool to the lineup:
the CyberNeko Style Processor, version 0.1.

NekoStyle is an XML batch processing framework that
is similar to the StyleBook tool we've been using for
several years to generate documentation of XML projects
here at Apache.

Why have I chosen to create yet another XML batch
processing framework? Because I wasn't happy with the
other ones. Because I like doing things *my* way.
Because I could. Because we just don't have enough of
them. ;) Because of a million reasons... Take your pick.

But before you decide whether it was worthwhile to
write in the first place, check out the web page[1],
download the code[2], and try it out for yourself.
You may find that you like it! Or not. Either way,
it works extremely well for what I need to do. :)

NekoStyle offers the following features:

   * simple, flexible, and extensible framework for
 automating XML processing
   * JAXP/TrAX compliant
   * parses HTML documents (using NekoHTML) as well
 as XML documents
   * dynamic pipelines
   * an Ant task for executing within build scripts
   * small size (the Jar is only 25K!)

and perhaps the most important is:

   * DOCUMENTATION! :)

One of the primary reasons I delayed the initial
release was so that I could write more documentation
about how it works. I hate writing docs as much as
the next person but I knew it was important for
people to understand the framework.

In fact, the HTML documentation included with NekoStyle
is actually generated *by* the NekoStyle processor at
build time. So this is a good way to learn how the
system works in practice.


Most of the content is written in DocBook and then
transformed to the HTML output. However, there are
some files that are written using custom DTDs so that
they can keep the semantic meaning behind the data.
These files (e.g. the change log) are first converted
to DocBook and then to HTML.

(This is one of my first attempts at using DocBook so
you'll have to excuse me if I used it incorrectly in
certain places. That grammar is HUGE! ;)


The real reason that I wrote NekoStyle was that I
needed specific features for other things that I'm
working on. So that's what I designed it for. There
are a few limitations and things I want to improve
but I think it's a nice little system for performing
XML processing. And I already have plans for features
to add in subsequent versions.

The most important feature I want to add is a
template processor that people can use to write the
output HTML. This would allow them to change the
design of the output without needing to edit XSLT
stylesheets. *And*, using NekoHTML, these templates
can be written in standard, "dirty" HTML much like
the templating functionality in other systems (e.g.
PostNuke, etc). This would alleviate a lot of the
trouble in maintaining documentation and adapting
the old docs to fit new requirements.

Anyway, if you need a small library to automate
batch XML processing, then NekoStyle may be what you
need. So check it out and let me know what you think.
You can also download all of the NekoXNI tools in a
single package[3] if you don't already have NekoHTML
or NekoDTD.

Enjoy

Re: Scarab

[dion]

There are some old bug reports for maven that I haven't looked at in a long
time that maybe worth keepingcan we export the old data out and
reimport?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   

Jason van Zyl  

  cc:   

 Subject: Scarab   

06/13/02 08:12 

AM 

Please respond 

to "Jakarta

General List"  

   

   





Hi,

Does anyone have anything critical they want saved in the old Scarab
installation on nagoya?

I'm ready to install a new version of Scarab so that it's available for
everyone but just wanted to check before blowing the old install away.

--
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://tambora.zenplex.org


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Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002

[dion]

Cool Great effort...thanks.
--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


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Re: new volunteer

[dion]

As part of Latka, I did stylesheets to convert from DocBook to Anakia. If
they'd help, just let me know.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
Ian Atkin  
   
  cc:
   
Subject: new volunteer 
   
05/17/02 10:24 PM  
   
Please respond to  
   
"Jakarta General   
   
List"  
   
   
   
   
   




i'd like to volunteer a sizeable chunk of my time to apache

i've 3 years java, xml, etc most of which was spent benefitting from
apache code without the time to contribute (or was it willingness?)

i'd like to improve my technical writing (partly as an employment move)
so I thought apache could do with my labour - which, what, when, where?

I'm committed to DocBook and XSLT so how could this fit with Anakia?

would an apache  DocBook customisation (doctype or scripts) be of use?
has one been done?

Ian


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Re: [Actual Action Taken] Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[dion]

If the point of this page is to stop posting of project specific products,
e.g. Struts IDE, Ant editors, Maven plugins to the project lists, I think
it's misguided.

Why? From a project perspective, you will subscribe only to those lists you
are interested in. If someone updates vendor.html, noone on the mailing
lists will notice, so there will still be a need to post to the mailing
list to ensure the project users know.

If it's a list of vendors using jakarta or selling services, fine. But
let's be clear about what it is. Up until now, I think Struts is the only
project that lists external resources/consultants/companies that support
the product.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   

 To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 cc:   

05/15/02 06:49   Subject: Re: [Actual Action Taken] Re: 
Advertisement using Apache 
AMlists

Please respond 

to "Jakarta

General List"  

   

   






Is this for any vendor who wants free ads, or only for companies that
support Apache projects ( and pay the salary for apache commiters ) ?

I think it would be fair and nice if projects would include such a page
in the releases, maybe next to the list of commiters who wrote the code.

Costin


On 14 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> Please see:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/vendors.html
>
> If this is acceptable (this is the best I could do on my lunch break ;-)
> ) -- I'll go ahead and update the site and I'll supply a patch for
> mail.html that asks that folks don't post commercial ads to the mail
> lists rather supply a patch for the vendor page to be applied at
> jakarta-site2 committer discretion.
>
> If you have minor suggestions for this, please supply them in the form
> of commits or patches that correct any minor errors or improve things.
> I'm not interested in creating the "vendor superpage".
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Andy
>
> PS I realize www.superlinksoftware.com is down at the moment.  Its
> undergoing upgrades.  It'll be back up at the end of the week.
>
>
> On Mon, 2002-05-13 at 09:32, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > +1 from me.
> >
> > While it's nice to see committers who are able to commercially work
with
> > the experience they gain/use here, it would be very demeaning to the
list
> > for every company who are using jsp/servlets/other to post their
> > consultant services to the general list.
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > On 13 May 2002, Leo Simons wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to all of that.
> > >
> > > - Leo
> > >
> > > > Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java companies"  -- lets
"innovate"
> > > > it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and
folks who
> > > > support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make
a
> > > > rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what
they
> > > > are there for.
> > > >
> > > > This does a few things:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta
Software
> > > > (not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several
people
> > > > here including myself as I like working with GOOD software)
> > > >
> > > > 2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta,
> > > > won't annoy people who might otherwise use them.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on.
> > > >
> > > > 4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter entries will one day
> > > > reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on.
> > >
&

[EGO] Re: Project Activity

[dion]

FWIW, there is no 'ranking' in the cvs activity report, unless you 
consider alphabetical order ranking. But I'm not going to complain about 
people who would otherwise do nothing doing some of the 'cosmetic' stuff 
like documentation/javadoc etc.

And everyone seems to have ignored the file activity report - which helps 
to find code that is unstable.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/14/02 01:33 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Project Activity


On Mon, 13 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:

> On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit 
the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
> 
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you 
get 
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push 
their 
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much 
the 
> same reason.

Breaking one big commit into many commits is not bad.
It makes things easier to review, the commit comment can describe much
better what has been done in the file.

Putting a 'ranking' on commiter's activity is however very bad.
Some are working full time ( as part of their job ), some are using
the little free time they find ( or sleep less ). I think the 
second category deserves a lot of apreciation, even if they may have 
fewer commits. 

Costin

> I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 

> localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count 
the 
> commits and note the committer style approach.
> 
> 


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Re: Project Activity

[dion]

"Many commits without description and many cosmetic changes."
Hey now, my commits are coming through with no message because of a bug in 
NetBeans. It's got nothing to do with the stats.

Some of those 'cosmetic' changes like checkstyle issues are LONG overdue.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 10:00 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Project Activity


From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit
the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
>
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you 
get
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push
their
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much 
the
> same reason.

This is exactly what has happened to turbine-maven just after the 
statistics
were made.
Many commits without description and many cosmetic changes.

Measuring how well a project is doing with these stats is nonsense.
There is no semantics in numbers.

Say you are having tons of letters from angry users that claim that your
product sucks.
Is the number of posts still a health indicator?
Maybe of the mailing list software ;-)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[dion]

Jeff,

AFAIK announce@ is for Jakarta announcements, not external projects.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




Jeff Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: Jeff Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 10:13 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Advertisement using Apache lists


On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that 
> >support
> >Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
> 
> I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and 

> other OSS software.
> 
> I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a 
top 
> level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's 
> company, or to advertise that you need support.

I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
everyone still cc's announcements to general@.

Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

--Jeff

> I'm not a committer on any projects so can anyone else try to get this 
> going? It shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> Alex
> 

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RE: Project Activity

[dion]

And sometimes it's on IRC channels. Talk is cheap...c'mon, lets see you 
guys implement some of your suggestions.

If you think it's mailing lists, plug it into EyeBrowse and the shared 
mboxes here.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 08:17 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:RE: Project Activity



Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

d.

> This makes me think of all the projects on SourceForge that shoot up
> high into the project ratings, with a high activity percentile, just
> because they turn the news function into a message board.


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[dion]

|
| In these days I've seen messages from [EMAIL PROTECTED] advertising
| commercial support for Apache software on this list
| (http://www.multitask.com.au/default.html?page=mtSOS) and on individual
| project lists
|
http://sos.multitask.com.au/QuickPlace/sos/main.nsf/h_Toc/07633801fb8c6459ca

| 256bb3001722b1/?OpenDocument .
|
| I think that this is a very nice thing, since IMHO commercial support is
| vital for Apache software.
|
| I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that
support
| Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
I've just been taking the tack that I'd place any announcements where there
most appropriate - e.g. tomcat stuff on the tomcat lists etc.

| Are there any special guidelines on this?
|
| Are there any suggestions on this topic?
I'd love to know more too...

--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


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Project Activity

[dion]

Back in mid March there was a discussion around the jakarta overview ( 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/overview.html ) and what / wasn't a good 
measure of project activity. My comment back then was commits on a project 
are a good indicator.

So anyway, I've added this reporting into the cvs head of maven. For a 
sample, see: http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/maven-reports.html

In particular the change log, developer activity and file activity.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers

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RE: Maven is growing

[dion]

C'mon guys personal attacks aren't worth our time.

Communities have a diverse range of people.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Sale, Doug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/04/02 05:12 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: 'Jakarta General List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:RE: Maven is growing


agreed.  the swearing
(http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jakarta.apache.org/msg05130.html),
self-congratulating web page (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html), and
general attitude is disheartening.

most of us don't need others to step in and defend our 'nice-guy' status.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:18 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Maven is growing
> 
> 
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> 
> > well, just yesterday we had:
> > 
> > [daedalus] 10:56am ~ > grep -c "/maven/" 02
> > 7546
> > 
> > Looks like the *entire* life of your project has been around 9500...
> > 
> > OhhA
> 
> My english vocabulary is too limited to express what I feel 
> reading this...
> 
> Maybe ashamed to be in the same 'community' with this kind of
> person. 
> 
> Costin
> 
> 
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> 




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Re: [ANN] in-house mail archive...

[dion]

I'm sure someone else will manage it but some of the lists have zero 
entries, e.g. turbine-maven-dev
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/04/02 04:34 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:[ANN] in-house mail archive...


Thank to Daniel Rall, we finally have an in-house mail archive for
JAKARTA.APACHE.ORG, with all our history so far.

The baby is running on Tigris' EyeBrowse and can be accessed here:

http://nagoya.apache.org/


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Gee thanks Costin. How to alienate a group of people in one easy lesson.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
 To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 cc:   
   
05/03/02 10:55   Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




On Thu, 2 May 2002, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite
iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just
not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

And, to give Jon credit where it deserves, he manages to build communities
and get people involved.

Many times I (seriously) considered Jon is playing some sophisticated
psychological games - by beeing so 'inpolite' ( to say the least )
and unreasonable he can get people who wouldn't give a damn about
the whole issue to become involved and symphatise with Jon's target.

So Centipede people should thank him - he built awarness and support for
them, while discrediting Maven and making maven commiters look bad,
by association.


Costin


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Namespaces and Transforms

[dion]

Sam,

I hear you. I understand where you're coming from. I can also see that
there are diverging ideas on project descriptors which have been solved in
two ways:
1) Augment with namespace definitions, and
2) Generate from different document.

The bottom line is that as long as they both work, who cares how the end
result is achieved.

I'd imagine most people who've written code generators have never written a
java compiler.

I'd hope from these exchanges it's clear that we're simply not ignoring the
work. We're working with Gump. If it turns out one descriptor is a simple
transformation of the other, then it'll be easy to adopt Gumps descriptor,
if not, we can propose the changes back to Gump/Alexandria. It may be that
Gump and Maven don't have the same need for the project information, since
they do different things with a 'project', e.g. look @ Ant's 'project
descriptor'.

At the moment, we've not gone the extend with namespaces way, but it really
shouldn't matter.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
"Sam Ruby" 
   
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]   To: "Jakarta General List" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
com> cc:   
   
 Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
05/03/02 12:42 
   
PM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




dIon Gillard wrote:
>
> I don't see how we can be more accomodating other than downloading,
> installing and running our own Gump. From talking to Vincent on that,
it's
> not a simple process, hence we are relying on the Gump developers to tell
> us where we're going wrong.

Look at it from my perspective for a moment.

I took initiative.  I build a working system.  I provided some
documentation.  I've responded when people have asked for features like the
ability to control their own descriptors.  I've asked for feedback.  I've
quickly given commit access to anybody who even expresses the slightest
interest and has even some minimal competency.

What feedback do I get?

> We've chosen to generate a descriptor rather than use namespaces, but
other
> than that, I can't tell why you're complaining - throw us a bone

Imagine somebody writing a code generator, never having installed a
compiler.

Let's be clear - I am not asking anybody sully their hands by actually
running Gump, but there must have been a reason why a different DTD was
chosen than Gump's.  I made an effort to document the Gump data definitions
and there certainly is plenty of instance data to look at.  Tell me what to
change, tell me what's wrong, or simply tell me they suck.  All I ask is
that you don't continue to ignore this work.

Let me be clear: I don't give a rat's behind whether the project
definitions are processed using XSLT, DVSL, or C#.  But is it too much to
ask that somebody showing at least some token interest in converging on the
data definitions?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Sam,
> His experience suggests that the Krysalis, Centipede, and Forrest have
been
> very accommodating, so the ideal situation would be for an active
developer
> on Maven to step forward.
Sam, I asked yesterday or the day before on this list what needs to be
done. I'm waiting on you for a reply. I'm an active developer on maven.
Yesterday we added the nag tags in that were requested.

Again, what is needed?

I don't see how we can be more accomodating other than downloading,
installing and running our own Gump. From talking to Vincent on that, it's
not a simple process, hence we are relying on the Gump developers to tell
us where we're going wrong.

We've chosen to generate a descriptor rather than use namespaces, but other
than that, I can't tell why you're complaining - throw us a bone

--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


[snip]

His experience suggests that the Krysalis, Centipede, and Forrest have been
very accommodating, so the ideal situation would be for an active developer
on Maven to step forward.

It goes without saying that this definition should neither presume nor
preclude any technology beyond an XML parser.

 = = = = = =

So, who wants to be the next contestant?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

'D'
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"Andrew C. 
   
Oliver"  To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
   
   
05/03/02 10:45 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




My understanding is that the Maven guys are totally against merging and
collaborating.  So it isn't just jon.

-Andy


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:57, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > [snip]
> > As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to
know
> > where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see
the
> > Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
> >
>
> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite
iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just
not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
   - fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

So much so that there have been no replies to my post on
krysalis-developers.

If you guys are so serious, how about continuing the discussion where it's
appropriate.
--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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  Oddly the centipede side supports collaboration


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:53, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > > I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
>
> 
> I can't help sitting here thinking about how the committers on projects
> being told to "MERGE MERGE MERGE" must feel like two young adults whose
> parents want them to get married (and have kids), but they don't even
know
> if they like each other yet ...
> 
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
   - fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

And he has such a good straight man in Andrew.
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"Craig R.  
   
McClanahan"  To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
   
   
05/03/02 09:57 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   






On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> [snip]
> As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
> where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
> Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
>

As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

Craig


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Berin Writes:

| Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
| >
| > It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
| > "everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential
users
| > (i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements
are,
| > before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
| > that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
| > throats.
|
| Which gets back to one of my first points.
|
| General build improvement issues should be discussed on General so that
| we know what we want.

Talk is cheap and almost useless, as we've all heard the last two days.
Code/Docs are far more valuable. I believe the usual way is to start with a
cohesive proposal.

As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
Maven developers have been fairly balanced.

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

> I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
How about we all stop the windbagging and start the code. If you've got an
itch scratch it - lets take this dicsussion to Krysalis-dev, as it's
completely OT here.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends blah blah blah

[dion]

I find the diagram @
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/org/apache/poi/hssf/record/uml-Record.html

to be way too detailed to be very useful. Is there another way to generate
them without the detail on methods/fields etc?
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"Andrew C. 
   
Oliver"  To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and 
Friends blah blah blah  
   
   
05/02/02 10:12 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




>
> In mavens case: http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/tasks.html short
> term and http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/musings.html long term.
> I haven't seen anything similar for centipede but I hope documentation
> is at the top of that list because... I haven't seen anything similar.
> Looking forward to seeing the UML generation, happy to steal that if it
> turns out well.
>

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/org/apache/poi/hssf/record/AreaRecord.html


click up on the upper right hand corner where it says "UML" and you see
the class diagram.

The colors are uglybut *shrug*  My wife picks out my clothes for me
and tells me which ones match so who am I to criticize ;-)

> -- jt
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
   - fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications

[dion]

| Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary.  Basically it gets
| set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications
| going...joins.

| What I'm most interested in is *would you join*.

| How bout it Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scottgang?
Can't we just join general@xml anyway, esp. since someone said it was
reasonably low traffic. That'd be my preferred option.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends blah blah blah

[dion]

Sam writes:

> If it is obvious, then don't be shy.

> More history.  Once upon a time, Gump descriptors were project centric.
[snip]
> Then, Jason decided to normalize them
[snip]

>Centipede opted to build upon this work.  I really would like to
converge
> the efforts, if even only on the project definition syntax.
I'm not sure that's possible. From my limited understanding of both
projects, Centipede puts project build functionality into the descriptor,
e.g.  (right, Nicola??), whereas Maven is keeping the build
functionality separate from the project descriptor, and placing them in
'pluggable' ant resources (build files, properties files etc).

So with Centipede, you declare you're using forrest. With Maven, you don't.
You could just run the maven:forrest target, if it existed, and the forrest
plugin would understand what that means.



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convertall your projects to maven!))

[dion]

JAKARTA-GUMP: +0 I'm not involved in Gump enough to make a call on this
one.
JAKARTA-ALEXANDRIA: +0 see above
CENTAVEN: -1

Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches
are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one
etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision to get
past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that works and
is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.

I'm also a little worried about the size/vocality of the centipede
developer community. Krysalis lists (in the archive) total 53 posts. Maven
dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151.
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 To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 cc:   
   
05/02/02 08:15   Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and 
Friends (was Re: You make the   
AMdecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your 
projects to maven!))  
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




+1

I would go even further and propose a top level project that will
host all project-management tools, including Gump.

While gump doesn't have a very big community of developers ( I wish
I had more time), it is an essential tool for jakarta, and
I think 'it is the real thing'.

There are many solutions for the same problem - and it seems
Centipede is based on Cocoon and XSLT, which would make it
my preference ( if I would need such a tool ).
I know other people dislike xslt - and I think it's fair to
have a choice.

Having a single repository and top level project, with possible
common components ( while preserving the important choices
of each project ) is a good solution, and until this happen
I don't consider either of the 2 projects 'mature' enough.

Costin

On Wed, 1 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

>
>   WHY KRYSALIS
>
>
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > I've no problem with that if Ken is given committer access, the
> > community agrees and comes up with a plan to integrate the two and all.
> >  I just figured it made more sense to have a project specifically for
it
> > rather than a subproject of a subproject that has nothing to do with it
> > in general.
>
> This is why Centipede came up on Krysalis instead of Apache.
>
> I followed the discussion we had here on if/how to accept projects at
> Apache, and about why Jakarta is not Sourceforge.
> Krysalis came up with the goal of pursuing Apache-style projects out of
> Apache itself, till they mature to a level at which they can honestly
> propose themselves on this list.
>
> Personally, I have already tried to collaborate with Maven on the
Alexandria
> list, even only at the descriptor level, and unfortunately have miserably
> failed (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10171340802&r=1&w=2)
>
> This is why Maven and Centipede have different descriptors.
>
> BTW, the Centipede module.xml descriptor is an enhanced Gump descriptor,
and
> works OOTB with Gump itself.
>
>**
>   CENTAVEN?
>**
>
> > But there has to be a sincere effort not just a "squash
> > centipede by saying yes to the proposal then -1ing the implemnetation".
> >  I just want the "to".
>
> I just want a build system that gives you the possibilities of Centipede,
> which Maven still lacks.
>
> That said, I don't care where the project resides. My decision of putting
it
> on Krysalis was taken to abide as much as possible to Jakarta standards

Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects tomaven!)

[dion]

FWIW, I have CrossOver installed too, but not Excel installedso ya got 
me.
--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/02/02 02:10 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your 
 projects 
to maven!)


eeww you're right...that sucks.  I kinda think I know where this came 
from then.  I have CrossOver Office installed with Excel 97.  (Used for 
testing HSSF).  I'll betcha I got the TrueType fonts that came with it. 
 So that would make sense why the page would look fine for me and not 
you.  (BTW OT but Office loads faster on Linux than on Windows and is way

Mr. Nicola Ken uses a sorry excuse of an operating system and is 
complacent in the fight against the forces of evil.  Or maybe he just 
LIKES rebooting a lot.  So he'd not notice that he used improper fonts. 
;-)  We'll work on fixing this.  Thanks for volunteering to help us out 
in testing.

-Andy

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The packagelist stylesheet says: lucida, verdana, arial, sans-serif; 
>
>Looking at Lucida on my box, I have an 8 and a 10. 8 is disgustingly 
>small, and 10 is fine...and that 9 point is probably somewhere in 
>between..
>
>Let me know when it's doneI'm happy to play average user.
>--
>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>
>
>
>
>"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>05/02/02 01:44 AM
>Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
>
> 
>To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc: 
>Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert 
all your  projects 
>to maven!)
>
>
>Dude thats definitely your fonts.  I'll look at changing the fonts used 
>in that stylesheet and see if we can't convert to ones that display 
>better for you.  I must have picked up a font package somewhere that 
>fixed it for me.  I think you're right though that its important we use 
>fonts that work on all Linuices (Linuxes?).  I'll let you know when its 
>done if you wouldn't mind testing it. 
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Andy
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>I'm attaching screen shots. The source code page is much worse than 
>>the javadocs. I'm at 1024x768.
>>
>>
>>--
>>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>>
>>
>>*"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*
>>
>>05/02/02 01:20 AM
>>Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
>>
>>
>>To:Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>cc: 
>>Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! 
>>convert all yourprojects to maven!)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Nope.  Perhaps your font settings differ from mine or perhaps Redhat or
>>Ximan package different fonts? 
>>
>>And I'm at 1600x1200 so well... dunno what the story is.  Is anyone else
>>having trouble with this?
>>
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any feedback & assistance.
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>>You mean it doesn't suck on Mozilla in your browser? The fonts are tiny
>>>and squished beyond readability in mine, is that clearer for you?
>>>--
>>>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>>>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>>>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>05/02/02 12:46 AM
>>>Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
>>>
>>>
>>>   To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>   cc:
>>>   Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! 
>>>
>>convert all your  projects
>>
>>>to maven!)
>>>
>>>
>>>Gee thanks.  thats really constructive.  I'd like to have heard
>>>something more like "X page has X on the wrong line" or something
>>>useful.  Or even more precise aesthetic criticisms.  And I like the
>>>javadoc page...   *shrugs* (of course I think the feat

Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects tomaven!)

[dion]

The packagelist stylesheet says: lucida, verdana, arial, sans-serif; 

Looking at Lucida on my box, I have an 8 and a 10. 8 is disgustingly 
small, and 10 is fine...and that 9 point is probably somewhere in 
between..

Let me know when it's doneI'm happy to play average user.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/02/02 01:44 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your 
 projects 
to maven!)


Dude thats definitely your fonts.  I'll look at changing the fonts used 
in that stylesheet and see if we can't convert to ones that display 
better for you.  I must have picked up a font package somewhere that 
fixed it for me.  I think you're right though that its important we use 
fonts that work on all Linuices (Linuxes?).  I'll let you know when its 
done if you wouldn't mind testing it. 

Thanks,

-Andy

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> I'm attaching screen shots. The source code page is much worse than 
> the javadocs. I'm at 1024x768.
>
>
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>
>
> *"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*
>
> 05/02/02 01:20 AM
> Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
>
> 
> To:Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> cc: 
> Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! 
> convert all yourprojects to maven!)
>
>
>
>
> Nope.  Perhaps your font settings differ from mine or perhaps Redhat or
> Ximan package different fonts? 
>
> And I'm at 1600x1200 so well... dunno what the story is.  Is anyone else
> having trouble with this?
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/
>
> Thanks in advance for any feedback & assistance.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >You mean it doesn't suck on Mozilla in your browser? The fonts are tiny
> >and squished beyond readability in mine, is that clearer for you?
> >--
> >dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> >Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> >Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >05/02/02 12:46 AM
> >Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
> >
> >
> >To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >cc:
> >Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! 
> convert all your  projects
> >to maven!)
> >
> >
> >Gee thanks.  thats really constructive.  I'd like to have heard
> >something more like "X page has X on the wrong line" or something
> >useful.  Or even more precise aesthetic criticisms.  And I like the
> >javadoc page...   *shrugs* (of course I think the feather on the maven
> >page hurts my eyes against that background but *shrug* taste is
> >subjective...)  this discussion is stupid.  Basically your 
disinterested
> >in my needs which are:
> >
> >1. Centaven
> >2. with GUMP
> >
> >And I think continued partcipation in this discussion is a waste of my
> >time.  I was hoping to see collaboration, but I think there is some
> >stupid partisanship between XML and Jakarta that is frustrating.  I 
have
> >my foot firmly set on BOTH and plan to keep it that way.   Having 
choice
> >is good, but sometimes the egotistical "gee we don't like your effort
> >lets not work with you" stuff gets kind of old.
> >
> >I look forward to seeing your alternative to POI.  It should be 
amusing.
> > I'm done now.
> >
> >-Andy
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >>The 'Source Code' link leads to a page that is butt ugly. The javadoc
> >>
> >page is also yeachh
> >
> >>--
> >>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> >>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> >>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>05/01/02 11:58 PM
> >>Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
> >>
> >>
> >>   To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> 

Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!

[dion]

Did you not see the smiley? Take a deep breath guys. It *is* being 
discussed on general@jakarta very early in it's lifespan - now...

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dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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Berin Loritsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/02/02 01:20 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to 
maven!


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Berin Writes:
> 
> 
> 
>>Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
>>list before it was even started.  That is something that somewhat
>>perturbs me about the Turbine projects.  SOmething with Maven's
>>scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
>>sneaking up on us.  When we get the message "convert all your
>>projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> 
> Well, given I don't subscribe to general@xml, Forrest was COMPLETELY 
> unknown to me. Maven was publicly discussed in the turbine-dev & 
> turbine-user lists. So from my perspective: What's Forrest :)

Of course missing the point completely.

The Forrest project was discussed on the GENERAL list for the main
project it belongs to (i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]).  Therefore,
for all people you are interested and support the XML.apache.org
project--they were included.

Such is not the case with Maven.  It was discussed in the Turbine
lists--not [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Therefore not everyone who
supports or are interested in JAKARTA.apache.org project knew about
Maven.

That is the key distinction.


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  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!

[dion]

Berin Writes:


> Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> list before it was even started.  That is something that somewhat
> perturbs me about the Turbine projects.  SOmething with Maven's
> scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> sneaking up on us.  When we get the message "convert all your
> projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
Well, given I don't subscribe to general@xml, Forrest was COMPLETELY 
unknown to me. Maven was publicly discussed in the turbine-dev & 
turbine-user lists. So from my perspective: What's Forrest :)



--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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Re: Reality Check (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)

[dion]

> Excellent post.  The issue I have is that it is not giving that 
information
>  for projects which have chosen to adopt Maven.  This issue is 
addressible.
Sure is...we're working on it, right? I'd love some help, and a reply to 
my email from before.

> Meanwhile, if a working Gump project descriptor - as generated by Maven 
-
> for projects which convert to Maven could be considered as a part of the
> virtual "checklist" for projects considering converting to Maven, then I
> would be happy.
You mean, like Latka has? There we've kept the original build.xml simply 
because of gump. It's not too hard to do in the meantime for projects 
'converting'.


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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects tomaven!)

[dion]

You mean it doesn't suck on Mozilla in your browser? The fonts are tiny 
and squished beyond readability in mine, is that clearer for you?
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/02/02 12:46 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your 
 projects 
to maven!)


Gee thanks.  thats really constructive.  I'd like to have heard 
something more like "X page has X on the wrong line" or something 
useful.  Or even more precise aesthetic criticisms.  And I like the 
javadoc page...   *shrugs* (of course I think the feather on the maven 
page hurts my eyes against that background but *shrug* taste is 
subjective...)  this discussion is stupid.  Basically your disinterested 
in my needs which are:

1. Centaven
2. with GUMP

And I think continued partcipation in this discussion is a waste of my 
time.  I was hoping to see collaboration, but I think there is some 
stupid partisanship between XML and Jakarta that is frustrating.  I have 
my foot firmly set on BOTH and plan to keep it that way.   Having choice 
is good, but sometimes the egotistical "gee we don't like your effort 
lets not work with you" stuff gets kind of old.

I look forward to seeing your alternative to POI.  It should be amusing. 
 I'm done now.

-Andy

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The 'Source Code' link leads to a page that is butt ugly. The javadoc 
page is also yeachh
>--
>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>
>
>
>
>"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>05/01/02 11:58 PM
>Please respond to "Jakarta General List"
>
> 
>To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>cc: 
>Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert 
all your  projects 
>to maven!)
>
>
>>
>>>>POI's
>>>>site under Linux, the stylesheets need some work :)
>>>>
>>>Now I'm intrigued.  What browser do you use? 
>>>
>>Mozilla 1.0 RC1 on Mandrake 8.2 under Gnome 1.4
>>
>Interesting.  We're using the same browser on roughly the same operating 
>system...  Can you give me some more specifics, I'd like to know exactly 
>what is appearing incorrectly for you?  I don't seem to be experiencing 
>any problems.  Thanks for your help.
>
>>>Andy= RHL 7.2, Ximian Gnome, Mozilla (whatever the latest release is), 
>>>kernel 2.4.17.
>>>(though my laptop is still windoze because Linux isn't supported on 
>>>laptops at work)
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>>
>
>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
>




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Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/02/02 12:08 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> >>Dude...you seriously need to get in line with GUMP.  You want to make 
> >>
> >I'm in line, I've had enough hassles with Gump over the last 3 weeks to 

> >grow new grey hairs. But hey, someone breaks Xerces, and it's *my* job 
to 
> >fix it? Things are still a bit skewiff there.
> > 
> But dude, thats good that it failed!  Valuable information was provided 
It'd be better if it didn't break, but then again, that's what it's early 
detection is for. I'd much prefer to have not wasted my time having flame 
wars with Nicola about how Latka's gump build has nothing to do with 
Maven, and have Gump list my dependency as xml-xerces, when it's actually 
using Xerces-J 2

> through the failure.  It may not be your job to fix Xerces, but next 
> time it may be a dependency on Xerces that breaks (due to say a changed 
> interface), in such case wouldn't you want to know so you could fix it 
> before it hits you in the nose when everyone says "gee this project 
> sucks it won't even work with the version of Xerces that ships with 
> Tomcat 4.0.5"  etc.  You REALLY need to read the fowler article.  Maybe 
I don't know why you don't think I haven't read the fowler article. I've 
used CruiseControl before, and understand where Gump is coming from. I'm 
just not fond of the process of a project I depend on breaking their code 
and I get to debug it

> you should put some heat on the Xerces folks "hey you're breaking the 
> build suckers" if it bothers you.
That's next, though. 

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers

Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects tomaven!)

[dion]

The 'Source Code' link leads to a page that is butt ugly. The javadoc page is also 
yeachh
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/01/02 11:58 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your 
 projects 
to maven!)


>
>
>>>POI's
>>>site under Linux, the stylesheets need some work :)
>>>
>>Now I'm intrigued.  What browser do you use? 
>>
>Mozilla 1.0 RC1 on Mandrake 8.2 under Gnome 1.4
>
Interesting.  We're using the same browser on roughly the same operating 
system...  Can you give me some more specifics, I'd like to know exactly 
what is appearing incorrectly for you?  I don't seem to be experiencing 
any problems.  Thanks for your help.

>
>>Andy= RHL 7.2, Ximian Gnome, Mozilla (whatever the latest release is), 
>>kernel 2.4.17.
>>(though my laptop is still windoze because Linux isn't supported on 
>>laptops at work)
>>
>
>
>
>--
>dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
>Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
>Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
>




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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!

[dion]

Andy writes:
[snip]
> I think I'd be resistant to trying an Apache project that wasn't 
> committed to working on GUMP.  Previous to GUMP most projects were known 

Ok, now who's spreading the 'D' in FUDMaven can generate a basic gump 
descriptor.

> to be painfully tied to particular versions of particular libraries. 
>  This has gotten a lot better since GUMP came on line.
[snip]
> So while I wish centipede and Maven would work together to create a 
> better project (like I said, I'm but a pebble in the avalanche), I don't 

> care which build a project uses.  But I do care if Maven has decided not 

> to build through GUMP as sooner or later I'm going to want to use a 
See previous comment. I've volunteered to get it working. I haven't yet 
had a reply from Sam though.

> project that uses Maven (assuming its successful) and boy I'll be ticked 

> if Maven causes dependancy problems that would have been self-resolving 
> had GUMP been properly used to test it.

> Am I volunteering, well no (I can't as continuous integration has to be 
> an active commitment by a community, and I'm not a part of that 
> community...partly because builds bore me), but I think I'll change my 
> position into actively dissuading Maven's use if it isn't integrated 
> with GUMP as it could have a cascading effect on creating dependency 
> problems for the projects that use it.
Gee thankswhat was that word again...FUDis this the 'F' or 'U'.

> And thats all I have to say about that,
> PS these points are more elegantly stated here:
> http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/continuousIntegration.html
Which funnily enough never mentions gump from memory

James Taylor wrote:
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Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!

[dion]

> Dude...you seriously need to get in line with GUMP.  You want to make 
I'm in line, I've had enough hassles with Gump over the last 3 weeks to 
grow new grey hairs. But hey, someone breaks Xerces, and it's *my* job to 
fix it? Things are still a bit skewiff there.

> sure Maven works and works with other Jakarta stuff, well GUMP + Junit 
> is "The Answer".  Trust me.  I don't feel its sam's job to fix 
> everyone's bugs for them.  Sam's pretty good, but  I don't think he's 
> that good, I think the rumors of him being omnipresent are exaggerated. 
>  Though its rumored that he can be in Redmond, NC and Apache all at once 
> ;-) (not a small feat).

> (so Sam is that worth those slides you promised?)

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