Re: I feel so vindicated.
However wrong or right you are or were, Jon, the place you site is clearly written by a box of rocks. At 11:58 PM 1/29/03 -0800, you wrote: http://www.freeroller.net/page/ara_e/20021214 I think we are going to see more and more of this over the coming year as the economy gets worse and worse and people are expected to produce real working applications. People are going to start to clue in to the fact that EJB sucks. JSP sucks. JCP sucks. Struts sucks. JSTL sucks. People are going to start to look for real solutions to their problems. Not just marketing hype and bullshit business practices. I feel so vindicated. How many years have I been saying the same thing over and over again? =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns, anthrax, etc.? At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court that decides whether to recount the votes... decides everything. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software . strategy . design http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Open ThunderGraph in Jakarta ?
Good dialogue. At 04:32 PM 1/28/03 +0100, you wrote: I have reservations: Let's go... 1) It's definitely a GUI focused project. Jakarta as a project has not yet made any moves to support Java projects which do not have some form of server aspect. Just as DB based Java projects are going into db.apache.org, I think there ought to be a gui.apache.org [better name needed] for this kind of thing. TG is not 100% GUI oriented since it could be used to produce graphics in a server side environment, and as such works great with tomcats. 2) This is a bit like a company looking at using Product X. If Jakarta is inviting projects in, what are the criteria. Why is ThunderGraph better than the alternatives? There is alternative, like JOpenGraph, but they don't want to switch from GPL/LGPL to BSD/ASF, which is a pre-requisite ;) Rather than digesting ThunderGraph into Jakarta, it'd be nice to see Apache backing some form of ASF-way-like community for gui'd components, ie) gui taglibs [we currently do quite abstract taglibs], components, applets etc. How can it be realised ? ASF umbrella is very attractive to developpers and there is a great community which may find interesting to be involved in gui projects. Couldn't we have TG and others GUI related projects under jakarta-commons or in a related structure, ie jakarta-guis ? If we're 'acquiring projects', I think we need some rules of acquisition. Sorry for such a negative reply, I'll live with it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Amen, Brother. Kill this thread! At 01:50 AM 12/14/2002 +1100, you wrote: Brian McCallister wrote: On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 09:18, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice? Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change. -Brian I think this thread has lost its way :-) Conor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
To suggest that Sun [t]here's nothing 'open' about Sun is not very insightful. Compare them to Microsoft, for example. You need to speak in ways that at least pass the laugh test. Sun deserves one hell of a lot of credit. At 02:44 AM 12/14/2002 +, you wrote: On 13/12/02 20:00 Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:42:36PM +0200, mohammad nabil wrote: support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. That's why the Foundation is working to fix that... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
I opened up WindoZ Word for WindoZ once to open the games that are hidden by the unhappy employees in there. You guys played the flying (space travel) games inside Word? At 07:59 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: But EVERYONE knows Word is only used on emails and simple love letters (with viri) under 4 pages. Why would you use anything else? Scott PS I do use Windows at work, and I even once had Excel open with 4 (yes four) workbooks at one time... -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:00 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Yeah... Maybe they can make it not crash for reasonable sized files... That would be compliant.. -Andy Scott Sanders wrote: Just like the news had Office 10, 9, 8, and 7 will all these XML compliance features? Office 11 will be closer than anything before, but I might be inclined to drop java if what they see is the same as what they do :) Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
At 04:31 PM 12/6/2002 +, you wrote: Being involved with the JCP quite closely, yes, I tend to agree... And since now C# is also available for OS/X, well, I'm game! :-) Me too. Not much else to do to protect oneself actually. I don't buy into all the talk that Sun is being stupid, since I don't know what I would do either, but I do know that learning C# cannot hurt. Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
M$ clearly has financial motives. What they are should be clarified. At 08:16 AM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote: it is for free Mr.Colombo Holmez :) why not?!! ;) There are other free email accounts (like yahoo! - running on FreeBSD) Don't you think that there is a correlation between the number of msn.com users and how much M$ charges for ads on its msn.com website, and reselling your address so that you can receive more spam ? Don't you think it's _helping_ M$? If you don't like M$, don't use their products. Even if they are free. M$ never gives things for free anyway. -Vladimir -- Vladimir R. Bossicard www.bossicard.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Sometimes I just cannot figure out how some peoples' minds work. Yes, Steve, there is nothing wrong with earning a living. You have a safe haven with that opinion. And, our salaries do have to come from somewhere. That too is correct. If anyone disagrees, don't pay attention to them. We STILL need, however, to clarify what is going on, or we will be as little mice getting eaten by the cat. I personally am a bit adrift in understanding what M$ is up to here. I would really appreciate learning more from the insights of people on this list, so that I can have nothing wrong with me earning a living WITH SOME INTELLIGENCE behind my decisions. That is the point. You probably knew that, however. I encourage people to speak up with their opinions about the present situation, so that I can make a better judgment about what to do. M$ is not looking out for me, that I am sure about. At 02:10 PM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote: Thank you. Is there anything wrong with earning a living? As software developers, our salaries have to come from somewhere. --Steve - Original Message - From: Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way M$ clearly has financial motives. What they are should be clarified. You are saying that as if Sun does not. Any business will ALWAYS have financial motives, and Sun is near the top of the list, along with M$. Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
That is funny James. I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we are so dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying. God, some people! Micael At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote: the number 1 selling OS In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to Windows 2000. -- James Mitchell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous that some people think that companies that use the open source groupies to generate thier income are not just as minipulative as the proprietary ones. clip. M$ is not looking out for me, that I am sure about. clip. neither is Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,... I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to themselves. Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS. Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one. Aaron Manns -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] RE: Ben Franklin and Open Source:
I like that thinking, James. I think, however, that the extrinsic works of Plato are the first, i.e. the dialogues. Do you know that the original Greek for the Platonic dialogue commonly called the Symposium means Booze Party? The sym means with (sym-biotic, sym-phony) and the posium means intoxicant. That should be something for a certain Friday guy in this list to think about, eh? At 03:12 PM 11/20/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, I believe the spirit of the Open Source movement dates back to Martin Luther..but that's just my $.02 James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or 1024 chickens? - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of V. Cekvenich Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ben Franklin and Open Source: Repost from SVLUG: Bill Kendrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I was listening to Marketplace (which plays on KXJZ at 6:30pm weekdays; http://www.marketplace.org/ ) and at one point they were talking about an upcoming PBS show on Benjamin Franklin. They briefly spoke with one Mr. Walter Isaacson, chairman and CEO of CNN [*], as he also happens to be writing a book on Franklin. At one point, Isaacson mentioned that Franklin never sought any patents on what he invented. To my surprise [**], Marketplace's host, David Brancaccio, pointed out the similarity between that and the Open Source movement. Isaacson responded Yes!, and stated that if Franklin were alive today, he'd probably be very much part of that movement. :^) Pretty neat. :^) -bill! [*] I believe. He's _something_ at CNN. Best I can find Google'ing is that he _was_ fairly recently. [**] Maybe I'm thinking like it's 1999, and nobody knows what Lie-nicks is. ;^) I guess it's hard to get used to. We, the Open Source community, really _are_ famous and important and note-worthy. Woo-hoo! ___ svlug mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.svlug.org/lists/listinfo/svlug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Let the games begin...
They must be getting a bit worried. This should be fun for developers. I am going to enjoy every minute. At 11:40 AM 11/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/downloads/sample.asp?ur l=/MSDN-FILES/027/002/097/msdncompositedoc.xml Note that it runs on OSX. Also note that the latest version of OSX has a journaled filesystem option which is enabled on an existing disk by simply typing 'sudo diskutil enableJournal /'. That brings OSX up to high end server OS capabilities and with the cool Xserve hardware... Now only if the prices fell through the roof... Things seem to be moving quite well for Apple now. -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Bingo! At 10:55 AM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote: Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-) (and there is my theme) ;-) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 10:42, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-) Well put, not only this last part, but the whole... True, XML is a good approach from a technical point of view, but unusable from some others (don't ask me to teach XSLT to our web guys, please!). JSPs can work for some, but they definitely introduce drawbacks when thinking how they are implemented (they destroy my servlet container). Velocity is simple, doesn't mess around with my servlets, but it's interpreted. Tea is fast, quite easy, but again the syntax is bad... There is _no_optimal_ solution... Just the one that works for you... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
I think we can all agree that there are varying issues here. For some environments, especially those that allow htmlers (which we all are) to dink with backend code, jsp probably is not the best solution. For other environments, it is a boon. At 01:21 AM 10/8/2002 +0100, you wrote: On 8/10/02 1:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than #if (..) #end in Velocity...? I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what templates are ! :-) Dude, we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-) Definitely templating is not an elegant approach, but it works. At least Tea and Velocity are not compiled straight into Java Code (therefore killing all HTMLers who thought they can code in Java, but in fact only producing tons of OutOfMemoryExceptions). More than separation of concerns using something better compared to JSP is a headache wonder (go and try to figure out where an OutOfMemoryException comes from, just to discover that in one of your 5000 JSPs you have an idiot playing around with Sessions, or why your database is hosed, and find out that some other lame creep is forgetting to call connection.close()... Arrrggghh)... JSPs are the root of all evil because HTMLers think to have the power (and obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler
I don't care for the flame war, but I am interested in this project and appreciate you making it available, Michael. At 09:36 AM 2/27/02 +0200, you wrote: Jon, you wrote that you don't care about how helpful project might be. I hope that you didn't mean that you don't care if Jakarta projects could be improved by it. You do care about Jakarta, don't you? :) -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Pan Subject: Re: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler It really bothers me that people think that this is a forum for announcing their new OSS efforts...*especially* ones that are under the GPL. I don't really care how helpful their project might be...this isn't the forum for it. Totally un-cool. Don't abuse this resource. general@jakarta isn't freshmeat. -jon on 2/26/02 4:16 AM, Michael Pan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My name is Michael Pan and I'd like to announce about the Heap Usage Profiler (HUP) project, which I wrote as a part of my M.Sc. HUP is profiling tool that allows the exploration and reduction of heap space consumption in Java applications. The space saving is based on the fact that some of the allocated objects not immediately used (or not used at all) in the application code. Also, there are objects, which are no longer in use, but remain in memory. The HUP tool allows a programmer to locate and remove memory bottlenecks, which are caused by unused objects. Non of the commercial Java profiling tools provide this functionality. I've successfully applied HUP on Tomcat web server under load test. Now I'm looking for people who are interested in running their projects with HUP to find out memory bottlenecks in these projects. The HUP tool is freely available on http://sourceforge.net/projects/hup/ and was tested on SUN and IBM JVMs on Windows 2000 operating system. I'll be glad to assist anyone who is interested in trying HUP. Michael Pan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler
This does not work with Linux/Unix? At 09:36 AM 2/27/02 +0200, you wrote: Jon, you wrote that you don't care about how helpful project might be. I hope that you didn't mean that you don't care if Jakarta projects could be improved by it. You do care about Jakarta, don't you? :) -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Pan Subject: Re: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler It really bothers me that people think that this is a forum for announcing their new OSS efforts...*especially* ones that are under the GPL. I don't really care how helpful their project might be...this isn't the forum for it. Totally un-cool. Don't abuse this resource. general@jakarta isn't freshmeat. -jon on 2/26/02 4:16 AM, Michael Pan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My name is Michael Pan and I'd like to announce about the Heap Usage Profiler (HUP) project, which I wrote as a part of my M.Sc. HUP is profiling tool that allows the exploration and reduction of heap space consumption in Java applications. The space saving is based on the fact that some of the allocated objects not immediately used (or not used at all) in the application code. Also, there are objects, which are no longer in use, but remain in memory. The HUP tool allows a programmer to locate and remove memory bottlenecks, which are caused by unused objects. Non of the commercial Java profiling tools provide this functionality. I've successfully applied HUP on Tomcat web server under load test. Now I'm looking for people who are interested in running their projects with HUP to find out memory bottlenecks in these projects. The HUP tool is freely available on http://sourceforge.net/projects/hup/ and was tested on SUN and IBM JVMs on Windows 2000 operating system. I'll be glad to assist anyone who is interested in trying HUP. Michael Pan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler
I would love to try it, but have no urgent demand. I do think that Linux will have a lot more users in this context than the Evil Empire. At 09:53 AM 2/27/02 +0200, you wrote: HUP does not work on Linux, but it could be easily ported to Linux. I have planed to do it in one of the nearest HUP versions, but if you have urgent demand for it I could revisit my priorities. Michael -Original Message- From: Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:33 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler This does not work with Linux/Unix? At 09:36 AM 2/27/02 +0200, you wrote: Jon, you wrote that you don't care about how helpful project might be. I hope that you didn't mean that you don't care if Jakarta projects could be improved by it. You do care about Jakarta, don't you? :) -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Pan Subject: Re: HUP - Heap Usage Profiler It really bothers me that people think that this is a forum for announcing their new OSS efforts...*especially* ones that are under the GPL. I don't really care how helpful their project might be...this isn't the forum for it. Totally un-cool. Don't abuse this resource. general@jakarta isn't freshmeat. -jon on 2/26/02 4:16 AM, Michael Pan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My name is Michael Pan and I'd like to announce about the Heap Usage Profiler (HUP) project, which I wrote as a part of my M.Sc. HUP is profiling tool that allows the exploration and reduction of heap space consumption in Java applications. The space saving is based on the fact that some of the allocated objects not immediately used (or not used at all) in the application code. Also, there are objects, which are no longer in use, but remain in memory. The HUP tool allows a programmer to locate and remove memory bottlenecks, which are caused by unused objects. Non of the commercial Java profiling tools provide this functionality. I've successfully applied HUP on Tomcat web server under load test. Now I'm looking for people who are interested in running their projects with HUP to find out memory bottlenecks in these projects. The HUP tool is freely available on http://sourceforge.net/projects/hup/ and was tested on SUN and IBM JVMs on Windows 2000 operating system. I'll be glad to assist anyone who is interested in trying HUP. Michael Pan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code than Sun Microsystems? Hmmm? Guess I must have missed the banana boat on this one. I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more restrictive. Yah, that's the ticket. Why don't we get a dialogue going on why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter, if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background. Micael At 07:12 PM 2/25/02 +1100, you wrote: On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote: It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C# thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful??? mickysoft ? Hmmm ... The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not. Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an open platform but wont be because it is not. Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a bit premature don't you think? Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of other parts of these projects aswell. There is also external ports of other projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do. I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs. However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also do so. Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in. -- Cheers, Pete Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Thanx, Andy. There have been such rumours! ;-) At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote: Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole group! -Andy On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Sam, I always get a kick out of your droll submissions. Thanks for the quiet humor, which always includes informational content and never is too biting. Micael At 01:55 PM 2/5/02 -0500, you wrote: Scott Sanders wrote: Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual. As soon as a java2c# porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on... Doesn't need to be to C#. The bytecodes are language independent. You can write one class in Java, subclass it in VB, and call the result from Perl. On the other hand the porting tool already exists. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/. Yet the hordes still remain. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
Thanks, Jon. You are a legend. At 12:19 PM 2/1/02 -0800, you wrote: Hey all, I just wanted to say that I'm not going to accept my Jakarta PMC nomination and do not want to be included in the voting for the next election. I have been involved with Java Apache/Jakarta since Sept 1996 and I think that it is time for me to move on from being politically responsible for this group. Honestly, I'm jaded and burned out on it all. That said, I recently signed a 10 year lease on a prime event space in downtown San Francisco and I am moving towards spending more time being a big time night club owner than working on Jakarta. More info: http://www.studioz.tv/ (p.s. that site is built with Anakia smile) I also just released Scarab 1.0b1 and am focused primarily on making Scarab the best issue tracking tool around. Expect to see more great developments on this project. It is by far, one of the best designed, largest and most complex pieces of software that I have ever had the pleasure of helping develop. It will be around for a very long time and will eventually put Bugzilla out of business. More info: http://scarab.tigris.org/ thanks, -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: J2EE considered harmful
Are you just talking about creating a new language, or what? What is your idea? I cannot tell. At 12:38 PM 1/31/02 -0800, you wrote: Amusingly enough, I've been considering writing an article with this exact same title. I've implemented two medium-sized systems using EJBs (http://www.similarity.com and http://mav.sourceforge.net/pig) and I've been haunting the ejb-interest list for more than a year. I was never ecstatic about the technology, but now I'm starting to feel downright disillusioned with it. Ok, enough whining. What to do about it? I really like the idea of an Apache community building a truly free competitor to J2EE. I don't like being tied to technologies owned by a single company, so I'm already pretty nervous by the stranglehold that Sun has on Java and (especially) J2EE. But it's not enough to build a marginal improvement over the existing system, even with Apache's mindshare. Besides, who wants to copy a mediocre idea? :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More abuse of coding styles...
At 07:07 PM 1/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
People who repeatedly forget to type this represent a minority and
should perhaps look to exercise a different profession.
Agreed.
The problem with
public void setSomething(Object something){
this.something = something;
}
is
public void setSomethingComplicated(Object sometingComplicateed){
this.somethingComplicated = somethingComplicated;
}
There's only possibility of problem there when you don't copy and
paste your variable names.
On the one hand, arrogance is never helpful, if you mean to be helpful. If
you want to show off how smart you are, on the other hand, it is a great
tool. The difference is whether you want to talk about yourself or the
subject-matter.
- micael
--
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Re: crushed
At 03:44 PM 1/7/02 -0500, you wrote: Guys, This whole experience has become a bit disheartening. Craig McClanahan who is like an idol of mine said this: What I like most about Craig is that he is concise and accurate. - micael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]
At 10:40 AM 1/5/02 -0500, you wrote: I would also like to personally commend Jon with his efforts to better document Jakarta. He has put a lot into the Web site (probably 90%), and we all owe him a great debt. -Ted. Despite Jon's candid remarks, as you put it, Ted, I too would like him to know that I join a throng in saying thanks. - Micael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna
At 02:40 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: When studying subcultures, the first rule is to not abuse them. This request is inconsistent with the tenets of this culture. - micael Why do you say that, Micael? It would be inconsistent to post this to all the USER or DEV lists, but, as a matter of fact, I invited Sari to post this to the General list, and Pier tossed the idea a +1 as well. Sari originally sent a private message to the people with addresses listed on our contact page, but I suggested it would be better to do this openly on the General list, where the exchange would be archived -- in accordance with our tenets. I believe the General list is a place where we can talk about ourselves. If anything, discouraging open communication about who we are and what we do would be inconsistent with our tenets. Well, Ted, guess you the man! The vote is in your pocket. Discussing who we are and what we do is now a part of these postings. A surprise to me, but what the hay, I am open to change. I don't think that I would discourage open communication on anything. I would discourage discussing Viet Nam during a wedding, but not discourage talking about it period. Get the distinction? Anyway, I think it is inappropriate, but I accept the vote, if that is the fact. Bye. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna
At 09:30 PM 12/29/01 +0100, you wrote: Micael i am aware of the fact that this is for sure true for you right now. from my point of view it looks a little different right now - over the last year i have developed theoretical research on this topic one aspect in it iso the concept (by E. Schein 1992) of levels of culture: artefacts: visible - but need to be interprated values: half invisible half visible basic assumptions: which are invisible and unconscious this questions belong to the basic assumtions - which you are may be not aware of . . . . . and am for sure not at all dont knowing this culture! and qualitative researches on the other hand sugest that you should ask that way - controvers to asking smart questions by Raymond. ted thanks for your support :-) sari I had no idea there was a vote saying it was okay to study us in this medium. You certainly followed the rules. What Ted did, I have no idea. And no say. Good luck with your studies. I used to travel near you and present each year in the 80s at the Annual Wittgenstein Symposia in Kircheberg am Wechsel. Are you aware of that? Want to discuss that in here? lol. I guess that would be appropriate. ;-) I wish you had prefaced your question with the fact that someone had given you permission to raise the issue in here. As it was, it was a surprise to me, and perhaps to others. Sort of like having people show up in your office to study you unannounced. (I guess if you bawked at that Ted would think you were closed to open communication too?) I hope you understand that being out of the loop in your own environment is a bit disconcerting. As I said, good luck with your study, and I see you were not the person at fault, if anyone was at fault. micael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations - qualitative research at university of vienna
At 07:59 PM 12/29/01 +0100, you wrote: I'm studying international business administration at the University of Vienna. My majors are organization and planning. Currently I´m writing my thesis on organizational culture in virtual organizations. At the beginning of this work (spring or summer 2001) I had to answer two questions: 1. What is a virtual organization? 2. How will I be able to measure culture? The first question was answered by defining a specific form of virtual organization, which structure looks very much like apache and all its sub-projects. The second question could not be answered - so I decided to go for a qualitative research - trying to describe a special type of culture rather than measure it. To generate data from the field, qualitative researches offer and recommend to use multiple methods and techniques to gain a wide view of several aspects: a) Group discussion - which can be done here = the questions following below should serve as startingpoint. the ones with the * are even more optional. b) Observations - which will be done on the interface of the organization - during the last days i read a lot :-) also part of the archives ted! 1. Could you shortly characterize the environment you are working in? 2. How did you start to work on this project? Is there an anecdote which everybody remembers? 3. Why are you working in an Open Source Project? 4. What do you understand by the term organizational culture? 5. Could you characterize the organizational culture of the project you are working in by using six terms? 6. Could you imagine using the term to dock in combination with the term culture? 7. If yes, could you describe the connection between these terms? 8. Which factors are making the working process easier? 9. Is there a slogan for your work? 10. Could you describe a situation where you didn't trust the person you were talking to online? *11. Do you think trust between strangers is possible or do people need to know each other to build up trust? *12. Do you think frequent communication improves trust or do you think that there is no relation between communication and trust? 13. Which influence does experiences in virtual worlds have on your work? *14. How many hours is your daily online time on average? *15. Do you think online communication is easier with people who have the same experiences as you, or do you think that experiences do not influence the understanding between people? *16. Do you think online communication needs to be learned like a new language or do you believe that everybody is instantly able to communicate online? 17. Why are you getting involved into new projects? *18. Life is learning - do you consider this as true? *19. Do you think people who work in virtual organizations tend to have fun while learning, or do they learn the same way as people working in normal work environments? 20. Which kind of risks do you usualy take in your workplace - could you shortly describe? *21. Do you think risk can be taken at workplace or should the work environment be a secure place? *22. Do you think working at new technologies involves risk for you or do you think the risks you take are the same as working in an old fashion business? 23. What do you think about information - and knowledge sharing? How far would you go? *24. Do you think people who actively share information are getting more knowledge by communicating with people who also actively share information? *25. Does the sharing of information need to be a 1:1 relationship - giving and getting information is equal between 2 persons or is it not important that you receive information in return of giving information to another person? The interpretation of the generated data will be done over during Christmas and New Year - Im realy late i know. This wokrk will be finished on 01.05.02 and be presented on 01.16.02 at University of Vienna. After this I would like to translate the results into English for all of you. It would make me happy if some of you could answer some oft the questions. Sari -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When studying subcultures, the first rule is to not abuse them. This request is inconsistent with the tenets of this culture. - micael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Coding style addition
At 04:53 PM 12/15/01 -0800, you wrote: The most entertaining flamewars I've ever seen are atempts to gain consensus on whether to use tabs or not, and then how many characters an indent is :-). Kevin Craig McClanahan If you think the topic of indent spacing is a joke, then you are sick, pal. ;-) -- micael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea
I agree with you people. Good soil to till. -Original Message- From: Bob Jamison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, July 15, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Project idea Cory L Hubert wrote: I think it's time for it as well. Oracle, DB2, Sybase are planning on cashing in even bigger now. The .com crazy is over and people are going to start to develop and market information rich websites and services that reach out to cell phones/PDA's etc. There hasn't been much innovation going on in the Relational DB world. It'd be nice to see an Open Source project catch up, innovate, and outperform the Big Name DB vendors. An Open Source java DB by a trusted Open Source Name (Apache) would allow anyone to have a high end database solution without being a big money making enterprise. Obviously I think this is a good idea. Why don't we create a list for Open Source DB's to evaluate? Also some criteria. I've already mentioned. 1. Object or Object/Relational DB. 2. Support for SQL/OQL 3. Support for the SUN JDO spec. -Original Message- From: David Duddleston [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 11:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Project idea There is a pretty good Java SQL Relational DB called Mckoi, but the darn thing is GPL and I have sent about 6 emails trying to get them to change the license to an ASL or equivalent, but I have had no luck. They won't even change to LGPL. hsql Database on sourceforge has a good license and works well for small projects, but I don't know if I would trust it for anything important. Hopefully it will pick up some momentum. I know Jetspeed (a Jakarta project) uses Hypersonic SQL (now hsql Database), or at least used it the last time I check which was a long time ago. I would love to see a solid Java RDBMS under a business friendly license. Maybe someday ;-) -david -Original Message- From: Tal Dayan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 5:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Project idea Does Jakarta has anything close to an embedded pure Java relational data base ? If not, a project like that will be a great addition to the Jakarta family. Tal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey, maybe take a look at http://www.lutris.com/products/projects/instantDB They have been hinting about making it open for a long time now, and maybe they could use some help doing so. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
