RE: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Steve Downey]

Here is the proposed settlement:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/trial/nov01/11-02settlement.asp

As near as I can make out, it does _not_ say that they can't extend any spec
or protocol, but that they must document and make the extensions available
in a reasonable and non-discriminatory manner.

It's not focused at servers at all, in any case, it's focused at "middleware
products", which contrary to what you might think means:

1. the functionality provided by Internet Explorer, Microsoft's Java Virtual
Machine, Windows Media Player, Windows Messenger, Outlook Express and their
successors in a Windows Operating System Product, and

2. for any functionality that is first licensed, distributed or sold by
Microsoft after the entry of this Final Judgment and that is part of any
Windows Operating System Product

a. Internet browsers, email client software, networked audio/video client
software, instant messaging software or

b. functionality provided by Microsoft software that - 

i. is, or in the year preceding the commercial release of any new Windows
Operating System Product was, distributed separately by Microsoft (or by an
entity acquired by Microsoft) from a Windows Operating System Product;

ii. is similar to the functionality provided by a Non-Microsoft Middleware
Product; and

iii. is Trademarked.


> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:25 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers
> 
> 
> Rhys Dixon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > from
> > 
> http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsnews/story.tmpl?table=n&cat=
51180&id=20011
> 1020851000104740
> what does this mean?
> 
> "The settlement would also require non-Microsoft Internet server software
to
> work with Windows on a personal computer just as well as Microsoft servers
> do."

That they can't go away from the HTTP spec, or extend it in any way so that
non-microsoft servers could not talk w/ Explorer... (Well, at that point
they would be screwed, because I don't know how many would give up Apache on
a nice IBM or SUN box to install IIS on an X86)...

Pier


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Pier Fumagalli]

Rhys Dixon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> from
> http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsnews/story.tmpl?table=n&cat=51180&id=20011
> 1020851000104740
> what does this mean?
> 
> "The settlement would also require non-Microsoft Internet server software to
> work with Windows on a personal computer just as well as Microsoft servers
> do."

That they can't go away from the HTTP spec, or extend it in any way so that
non-microsoft servers could not talk w/ Explorer... (Well, at that point
they would be screwed, because I don't know how many would give up Apache on
a nice IBM or SUN box to install IIS on an X86)...

Pier


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Rhys Dixon]

from
http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsnews/story.tmpl?table=n&cat=51180&id=20011
1020851000104740
what does this mean?

"The settlement would also require non-Microsoft Internet server software to
work with Windows on a personal computer just as well as Microsoft servers
do."

rhys



- Original Message -
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers


> On 10/31/01 1:57 PM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Any plans to do an open source Java implementation of it? :)
> >
> > Then we could do an open alternative to My Services. 'Open Services'
anyone?
> > :)
> >
>
> And maybe we could also hijack a top level domain, and put it as part of
our
> new .COM project...
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
>
>
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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 10/31/01 1:57 PM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Any plans to do an open source Java implementation of it? :)
> 
> Then we could do an open alternative to My Services. 'Open Services' anyone?
> :)
> 

And maybe we could also hijack a top level domain, and put it as part of our
new .COM project...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Chuck Murcko]

Sigh. 8^) And this is only one aspect of My Services.

I would not bet on seeing Trintech PayWare eIssuer (as it is currently 
named) in OS form anytime soon. 8^( eIssuer is a big win for Trintech, 
as it integrates nicely into all their back end systems, where the big 
lump sum money is. But they have not yet understood the advantage an OS 
version would be at the upper management level, because an OS version 
would not be a revenue source (even though it might just be a true 
Passport wallet killer).

Trintech is a good example of the thinking in the online transaction 
industry. Security, customer control, and getting a slice of the pie a 
la AmEx transaction fees are the guiding principles. OS doesn't do well 
here, except to be exploited. It's no surprise that .NET is M$'s first 
public foray into openness. But it's all about a special kind of open 
source, where you organize a community to make money for M$ without 
being paid. One could also argue that that's what the JCP really is for 
Sun. 8^)

Want to bet we're going to see some kind of Passport wallet transaction 
fee somewhere in the future? That's money that would flow directly to M$ 
since they plan to control the transaction gateway to the back end 
(where the CC companies and banks are). Same with anyone else's system 
currently. They all think that's where the next new revenue is for them. 
The staging will mirror that of ATM transaction fees, free for awhile, 
but only until everyone is sucked into using it.

I think it would be easier to get a set of transaction gateway standards 
that would allow any compliant ewallet to play, though it's hard to get 
around the qualification testing. The mindset of the CC industry has to 
change before anything can happen.

So I guess the real answer is, it depends on how good we are as  
evangelists over several generations. 8^) Otherwise OS can only be 
burned badly by playing this game, IMO.

Chuck

On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 01:57 PM, James Strachan wrote:

> Any plans to do an open source Java implementation of it? :)
>
> Then we could do an open alternative to My Services. 'Open Services' 
> anyone?
> :)
>
> James
> - Original Message -
> From: "Chuck Murcko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers
>
>
> We did, several years ago, at Trintech, for Visa, Mastercard, and Amex.
> They all use it. I think Brother International just adopted it. It even
> worked over WAP. 8^)
>
> But it is not getting all the hoopla that Passport is getting. And it
> was meant for users to select as a choice, from a website, not to be
> supplied to them as the default/only thing they can use.
>
> Chuck
>
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 06:39 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:
>>
>> | Paying for an online agenda? document storage? e-wallet? This looks
>> like the
>> | e-commerce flop on steroids.
>>
>> This is the stuff that will succeed:
>>   Microsoft Passport. Mix in Activation Code. Then pay for My Services.
>> And find yourself placed firmly within "MS World" with no other 
>> options.
>>
>>  - Be afraid. Be very afraid!
>>
>> In my opinion, the net does need some kind of ewallet stuff. It's just
>> that M$ is the last company in the world that should own it. Why hasn't
>> VISA and MasterCard and the like done this stuff ages ago?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mvh,
>> Endre
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:general-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>>
>>
>>
Chuck Murcko
Topsail Group
http://www.topsail.org/
>
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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[James Strachan]

Any plans to do an open source Java implementation of it? :)

Then we could do an open alternative to My Services. 'Open Services' anyone?
:)

James
- Original Message -
From: "Chuck Murcko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers


We did, several years ago, at Trintech, for Visa, Mastercard, and Amex.
They all use it. I think Brother International just adopted it. It even
worked over WAP. 8^)

But it is not getting all the hoopla that Passport is getting. And it
was meant for users to select as a choice, from a website, not to be
supplied to them as the default/only thing they can use.

Chuck

On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 06:39 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:
>
> | Paying for an online agenda? document storage? e-wallet? This looks
> like the
> | e-commerce flop on steroids.
>
> This is the stuff that will succeed:
>   Microsoft Passport. Mix in Activation Code. Then pay for My Services.
> And find yourself placed firmly within "MS World" with no other options.
>
>  - Be afraid. Be very afraid!
>
> In my opinion, the net does need some kind of ewallet stuff. It's just
> that M$ is the last company in the world that should own it. Why hasn't
> VISA and MasterCard and the like done this stuff ages ago?
>
>
> --
> Mvh,
> Endre
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:general-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:general-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
Chuck Murcko
Topsail Group
http://www.topsail.org/


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Chuck Murcko]

We did, several years ago, at Trintech, for Visa, Mastercard, and Amex. 
They all use it. I think Brother International just adopted it. It even 
worked over WAP. 8^)

But it is not getting all the hoopla that Passport is getting. And it 
was meant for users to select as a choice, from a website, not to be 
supplied to them as the default/only thing they can use.

Chuck

On Wednesday, October 31, 2001, at 06:39 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:
>
> | Paying for an online agenda? document storage? e-wallet? This looks 
> like the
> | e-commerce flop on steroids.
>
> This is the stuff that will succeed:
>   Microsoft Passport. Mix in Activation Code. Then pay for My Services.
> And find yourself placed firmly within "MS World" with no other options.
>
>  - Be afraid. Be very afraid!
>
> In my opinion, the net does need some kind of ewallet stuff. It's just
> that M$ is the last company in the world that should own it. Why hasn't
> VISA and MasterCard and the like done this stuff ages ago?
>
>
> --
> Mvh,
> Endre
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:    [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
Chuck Murcko
Topsail Group
http://www.topsail.org/


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:

| Paying for an online agenda? document storage? e-wallet? This looks like the
| e-commerce flop on steroids.

This is the stuff that will succeed:
  Microsoft Passport. Mix in Activation Code. Then pay for My Services.
And find yourself placed firmly within "MS World" with no other options.

 - Be afraid. Be very afraid!

In my opinion, the net does need some kind of ewallet stuff. It's just
that M$ is the last company in the world that should own it. Why hasn't
VISA and MasterCard and the like done this stuff ages ago?


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Sam Ruby]

Jonathan Reichhold wrote:
>
> If you develop software you need to test it against production
> boxes for compatibility.  As soon as you want to test a program
> you need to pay Microsoft.  Sure the development kit is free

The development kit includes code that enables you to run your own server
and test for compatibility.  In fact, you can even host your own "private"
intranet "MyServices" with it.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Jonathan Reichhold]

The assertion that this isn't a toll on development is not correct.  If you develop 
software you need to test it against production
boxes for compatibility.  As soon as you want to test a program you need to pay 
Microsoft.  Sure the development kit is free, but as
soon as I want to test out some nifty functionality (and test for bugs) I have to pay 
$1000/year and $250 per application.  MS could
easily set up development versions of the servers and give developers free access to 
test against them.  I really don't feel I
should pay for testing against an automated system unless I'm putting a severe burden 
on that system (say a load test or calling for
support).

If you actually read the article it doesn't state that the fee is for production code 
to use the servers.  It is reasonable to
charge for accessing servers in production environments, but charging developers for 
things they may never release publicly is a tax
on development.

How many "nifty" open source projects will never happen if .NET succeeds?  Which open 
source project has this kind of money to spend
for Microsoft programs?

Jonathan

- Original Message -
From: "Avi Cherry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers


> At 2:41 PM -0700 10/24/01, Jon Stevens wrote:
> >Why am I not surprised?
> >
> >The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
> >(better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
> >for this stuff!
> >
> >We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
> >AIDS research or some other worthy cause.
>
> (Disclaimer:  I don't develop for Microsoft platforms.  I barely know
> anything about .Net.  I'm personally rather unfond of Microsoft)
>
> Sorry, Jon, if you bothered to even read the story that you
> referenced (http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html) you
> would know the headline [...the cost of signing up as a developer to
> .Net Entry level is $1,000...] is simply untrue.  These costs are to
> have your applications listed on the .Net My Services.  Basically, if
> you want your application listed and hosted by Microsoft, this is the
> fee that you have to pay.  Anybody can download the .Net SDK and use
> whatever tools they want to create .Net applications.  This story has
> been going around ALL of the 'usual sources' (slashdot, etc...).
> Personally, I don't think I will touch .Net unless I get very
> desperate, but I feel I need to set the record straight when I hear
> people spread untruths like this, even when it's about something I
> consider the 'opposition'.
>
> Avi



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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Kevin A. Burton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
> (better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay for
> this stuff!
> 
> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.


How about the EFF?? I would think this is the best cause epecially for this
community.

The EFF has a paypal account setup and they have a CGI based API for doing this
type of purchase.  At the end it would redirect to the download page of your
choice.

Kevin

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   Need a good Engineer?  Hire me!  ( Java | P2P | XML | Linux | Open Source )

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RE: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Steve Downey]

While MS does a lot of things wrong, this isn't one of them. The $1000 fee
is for a business to use Microsoft's ".Net My Services", their web services,
not for doing .NET development. 

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers
> 
> 
> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with 
> all the free
> (better?) alternatives that are out there, people will 
> actually still pay
> for this stuff!
> 
> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and 
> donate the money to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- Forwarded Message
> 
> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
> Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
> Topic: ms, 153 comments
> 
>from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
>matsh writes: "Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of 
> signing up as a
>developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
>Custom support will cost even more."
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html
> 
> -- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>This electronic mail transmission
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RE: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Title: RE: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers





I don't understand the business model behind .NET. The article mentions developers paying to develop and deploy services, but also users paying to use them.

Paying for an online agenda? document storage? e-wallet? This looks like the e-commerce flop on steroids.


Un saludo,


Alex.


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: miércoles 24 de octubre de 2001 23:41
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers
> 
> 
> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with 
> all the free
> (better?) alternatives that are out there, people will 
> actually still pay
> for this stuff!
> 
> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and 
> donate the money to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- Forwarded Message
> 
> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
> Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
> Topic: ms, 153 comments
> 
>    from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
>    matsh writes: "Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of 
> signing up as a
>    developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
>    Custom support will cost even more."
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html
> 
> -- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 

Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Matt Egyhazy]

unfortunately, there is an entire class of developer that can only build
software using microsoft tools.

microsoft has moved into .edu territory and is giving away their tools for
free.  the kids are becoming attached to them.

matt

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:41 PM
Subject: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers


> Why am I not surprised?
>
> The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
> (better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
> for this stuff!
>
> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money
to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.
>
> -jon
>
> -- Forwarded Message
>
> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
> Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
> Topic: ms, 153 comments
>
>from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
>matsh writes: "Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of signing up as a
>developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
>Custom support will cost even more."
>
> References
>
>1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html
>
> -- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[James Strachan]

Agreed. I've also been suprised by the recent rise in FUD thats coming our
way...

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-2001/jw-1019-iw-netvsjava.html?

A nice MS marketting strategy seems to be comparing .Net to EJBs rather than
to Java (or Servlets or JAXM or whatnot). Hardly a fair or useful
comparison. .Net still seems to use COM under the covers anyways so COM v
EJB or .NET v. Java seems more sensible but then I suppose thats the point
of FUD afterall.

James
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers


> Why am I not surprised?
>
> The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
> (better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
> for this stuff!
>
> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money
to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.
>
> -jon
>
> -- Forwarded Message
>
> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
> Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
> Topic: ms, 153 comments
>
>from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
>matsh writes: "Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of signing up as a
>developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
>Custom support will cost even more."
>
> References
>
>1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html
>
> -- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Pier Fumagalli]

Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
> AIDS research or some other worthy cause.

That would be a good idea...

Pier


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Re: [OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Avi Cherry]

At 2:41 PM -0700 10/24/01, Jon Stevens wrote:
>Why am I not surprised?
>
>The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
>(better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
>for this stuff!
>
>We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
>AIDS research or some other worthy cause.

(Disclaimer:  I don't develop for Microsoft platforms.  I barely know 
anything about .Net.  I'm personally rather unfond of Microsoft)

Sorry, Jon, if you bothered to even read the story that you 
referenced (http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html) you 
would know the headline [...the cost of signing up as a developer to 
.Net Entry level is $1,000...] is simply untrue.  These costs are to 
have your applications listed on the .Net My Services.  Basically, if 
you want your application listed and hosted by Microsoft, this is the 
fee that you have to pay.  Anybody can download the .Net SDK and use 
whatever tools they want to create .Net applications.  This story has 
been going around ALL of the 'usual sources' (slashdot, etc...). 
Personally, I don't think I will touch .Net unless I get very 
desperate, but I feel I need to set the record straight when I hear 
people spread untruths like this, even when it's about something I 
consider the 'opposition'.

Avi

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[OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

[Jon Stevens]

Why am I not surprised?

The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
(better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
for this stuff!

We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
AIDS research or some other worthy cause.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message

Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
Topic: ms, 153 comments

   from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
   matsh writes: "Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of signing up as a
   developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
   Custom support will cost even more."

References

   1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html

-- End of Forwarded Message


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