Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Henri Yandell]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> Agreed. On the same topic. Has anyone noticed following on the
> marc.theaimsgroup.com [1]?
>
> * Apache * Projects of the Apache
> Server Foundation

Might be good to tell them that the Jakarta mail lists should go under
'Apache' and not under 'Java' too.

Hen


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Vadim Gritsenko]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
that would bring to the attention of [that] they should infact
use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.
 

 

If you want to raise awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't
do it in a "java only" place like Jakarta.
   

An Apache Software Foundation newsletter, as an outgrowth from the great
work on the Jakarta newsletter, would provide an overall picture of the
scope of the ASF's projects, and should help to naturally dispel the Apache
== Apache HTTPD image.
Agreed. On the same topic. Has anyone noticed following on the 
marc.theaimsgroup.com [1]?

* Apache * Projects of the Apache 
Server Foundation

We should notify them about ASF acronym...

[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=apache-announce&r=1&w=2

Vadim



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Noel J. Bergman]

> > What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
> > that would bring to the attention of [that] they should infact
> > use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.

> If you want to raise awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't
> do it in a "java only" place like Jakarta.

An Apache Software Foundation newsletter, as an outgrowth from the great
work on the Jakarta newsletter, would provide an overall picture of the
scope of the ASF's projects, and should help to naturally dispel the Apache
== Apache HTTPD image.

As a matter of trademark law, I believe that Apache needs to be used as an
adjective not a noun.  See http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/#10 and
following passages.  Arguably, the footer on ASF web pages should have a
link to a similar page; at least to the licensing FAQ:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html#Marks.

See also:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=trademark+use+adj
ective

--- Noel


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Santiago Gala]

Erik Price escribió:


Stephen Haberman wrote:

Much agreed, and ideally we could rebrand the HTTPD project as just
that, 'HTTPD'. No Apache prefix, as you're right, none of the other
projects use the Apache prefix (maybe because it's already taken by
HTTPD?).


Wasn't that the name of the original NCSA web server?

True, and when heavily patched, it became "A-patchy HTTPD", or so the 
legend says.
http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~laird/thoughts/Apache_intro.html
http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/00mar/2330.html

Erik

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
Santiago Gala
High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Erik Price]

Stephen Haberman wrote:

Much agreed, and ideally we could rebrand the HTTPD project as just
that, 'HTTPD'. No Apache prefix, as you're right, none of the other
projects use the Apache prefix (maybe because it's already taken by
HTTPD?).


Wasn't that the name of the original NCSA web server?

Erik

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Stephen Haberman]

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 06:50:34PM +0200, Santiago Gala wrote:
> The reverse of this is that I don't often see Jakarta, Tomcat,
> Ant, Velocity, Xerces or Xalan referenced as Apache XXX. So, it
> looks like the people cannot stick two words together and still be
> a brand.
>
> Side Note: It reminds me of the GNU/Linux stuff (or even GNU
> Emacs). It simply doesn't stick.

Much agreed, and ideally we could rebrand the HTTPD project as just
that, 'HTTPD'. No Apache prefix, as you're right, none of the other
projects use the Apache prefix (maybe because it's already taken by
HTTPD?).

I thought of proposing this rename to just HTTPD, but could see it
getting even more backlash than the 'Apache' -> 'Apache HTTPD'
rename. If we went straight 'Apache' -> 'HTTPD', then there'd be a
hard conversion for, say, system admins scrolling through install
screens (or the FreeBSD ports collection) looking for 'Apache
1.x/2.x' and not seeing anything.

Think of all the confusion renaming something like 'apachectl' to
'httpdctl' or just 'httpd' would cause. In theory, I'm all for it,
and the purist side of me really likes it, but I was trying to be a
bit more pragmattic.

With the 'Apache HTTPD' rename, I think it'd easier politically to
get the change through in places like Redhat, FreeBSD ports
collection, etc.

> I copy community (on political principles). If you want to raise
> awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't do it in a "java
> only" place like Jakarta.

Makes sense; I had forgotten this 'general' was at
'jakarta.apache.org' instead of just 'apache.org'.

Actually, I think I'd like to get support for this before taking it
to community. If people here at Jakarta don't want to go ahead with
pursuing a rebranding effort, then I wouldn't bother raising it on
community.

Also, thinking about the strict 'Apache' -> 'HTTPD' rename, just
'HTTPD' sounds rather clunky (to me, perhaps being naive). If the
HTTPD community doesn't like being called just httpd, what if we did
an even more drastic rename? A la the Mozilla Phoenix -> Mozilla
Firebird rename. It might actually work better, because if it's a
bigger deal then just 'Apache' -> 'Apache HTTPD', we could get lots
of publicity on slashdot and other tech sites to inform end users of
the change and hopefully avert some of the backlash on 'apache' no
longer being in ports/installers/paths/etc.

- Stephen

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Santiago Gala]

Stephen Haberman escribió:
On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 12:58:17AM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:

I'd do it when they'll donate Python itself ;-) Does wishful
thinking work?
Believe me, I suggested that years ago. The Python Software
Foundation was started instead (Dick Hardt and I crafted the PSF
bylaws based on the ASF's bylaws). The main backers of a PSF
effort thought that the ASF was still too confusingly tied to the
Apache HTTP Server (despite my protests). I think if we asked
again, today, that the answer would be that Apache stands for much
more. But the PSF has got its own momentum now, so there wouldn't
be much benefit for them to fold up and merge the Python assets
into the ASF.


I can understand that they think the general perception is that
Apache == HTTPD. Perhaps measures are already in place to help
educate people on the distinction, e.g. you think if Apache asked
Python to merge with it again today, they would accept, but perhaps
active marketting measures need to be taken to enhance/protect the
Apache brand?
Perhaps I'm getting too commercial or what not, but I've seen just
'Apache' in many places where they meant 'Apache HTTPD' so I can
certainly understand the Python community's hestitation.
E.g. the FreeBSD ports collection, the 'Powered by Apache 2.0' logo
on my FreeBSD port-installed HTTPD server (is there a 2.0 version of
the foundation?). Other things that come to mind are distro
installers like RedHat, or even cygwin, let me install 'apache-xxx'.
Even the Apache HTTPD FAQ, which I just checked to see how it
handles the definitions, the first question, is:
Q: "What is Apache?"
A: "The Apache httpd server"
The entire thing refers to "Apache" as synonymous for the HTTPD
server project.
And I'm sure this happens elsewhere on the net, as well. E.g.
anytime a news site mentions it. Even slashdot had the other day
'Software Code Quality of Apache Analyzed', which was where some
commercial code quality compared compared the HTTPD 2.0 code to some
commercial web server.
(The front page of the httpd.apache.org site also refers to itself
as 'Apache HTTP Server', which is a little misleading, as there is
another HTTP server, Tomcat, and you don't see it masquerading as
the 'Apache HTTP Server' which it can claim, history of the HTTPD
project asside, just as legitimately. Perhaps this opens up a can of
political worms, but I think strictly branding HTTPD as HTTPD and
not 'Apache' or even 'Apache HTTP Server' is a good idea.)
The reverse of this is that I don't often see Jakarta, Tomcat, Ant, 
Velocity, Xerces or Xalan referenced as Apache XXX. So, it looks like 
the people cannot stick two words together and still be a brand.

Side Note: It reminds me of the GNU/Linux stuff (or even GNU Emacs). It 
simply doesn't stick.

I usually say: I work in Jetspeed, an Apache Jakarta project. But even 
so, people loose track easily.

What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
that would bring to the attention of people who get this wrong, e.g.
news articles, older articles around the Apache/HTTPD site, the
FreeBSD ports collection, the distro makers, etc., that they should
infact use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.
It might be good preparation for the next X project that comes along
but still things the general public/developer things Apache == HTTPD
(because they do, IMHO, even if it's better than before) and so we
lose the opportunity.
In the spirit of 'submit a patch,' I'd volunteer to at least be a
part of this watchdog group; I'm a little leery of the political
side of what it would take to get it formed and the respect for
people to listen to it. But if people think its a good idea and
higher ups in ASF like it, I'm willing to tag along and help out.
I copy community (on political principles). If you want to raise 
awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't do it in a "java only" 
place like Jakarta.

- Stephen

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
Santiago Gala
High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)

[Stephen Haberman]

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 12:58:17AM -0700, Greg Stein wrote:
> > I'd do it when they'll donate Python itself ;-) Does wishful
> > thinking work?
>
> Believe me, I suggested that years ago. The Python Software
> Foundation was started instead (Dick Hardt and I crafted the PSF
> bylaws based on the ASF's bylaws). The main backers of a PSF
> effort thought that the ASF was still too confusingly tied to the
> Apache HTTP Server (despite my protests). I think if we asked
> again, today, that the answer would be that Apache stands for much
> more. But the PSF has got its own momentum now, so there wouldn't
> be much benefit for them to fold up and merge the Python assets
> into the ASF.

I can understand that they think the general perception is that
Apache == HTTPD. Perhaps measures are already in place to help
educate people on the distinction, e.g. you think if Apache asked
Python to merge with it again today, they would accept, but perhaps
active marketting measures need to be taken to enhance/protect the
Apache brand?

Perhaps I'm getting too commercial or what not, but I've seen just
'Apache' in many places where they meant 'Apache HTTPD' so I can
certainly understand the Python community's hestitation.

E.g. the FreeBSD ports collection, the 'Powered by Apache 2.0' logo
on my FreeBSD port-installed HTTPD server (is there a 2.0 version of
the foundation?). Other things that come to mind are distro
installers like RedHat, or even cygwin, let me install 'apache-xxx'.

Even the Apache HTTPD FAQ, which I just checked to see how it
handles the definitions, the first question, is:

Q: "What is Apache?"
A: "The Apache httpd server"

The entire thing refers to "Apache" as synonymous for the HTTPD
server project.

And I'm sure this happens elsewhere on the net, as well. E.g.
anytime a news site mentions it. Even slashdot had the other day
'Software Code Quality of Apache Analyzed', which was where some
commercial code quality compared compared the HTTPD 2.0 code to some
commercial web server.

(The front page of the httpd.apache.org site also refers to itself
as 'Apache HTTP Server', which is a little misleading, as there is
another HTTP server, Tomcat, and you don't see it masquerading as
the 'Apache HTTP Server' which it can claim, history of the HTTPD
project asside, just as legitimately. Perhaps this opens up a can of
political worms, but I think strictly branding HTTPD as HTTPD and
not 'Apache' or even 'Apache HTTP Server' is a good idea.)

What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
that would bring to the attention of people who get this wrong, e.g.
news articles, older articles around the Apache/HTTPD site, the
FreeBSD ports collection, the distro makers, etc., that they should
infact use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.

It might be good preparation for the next X project that comes along
but still things the general public/developer things Apache == HTTPD
(because they do, IMHO, even if it's better than before) and so we
lose the opportunity.

In the spirit of 'submit a patch,' I'd volunteer to at least be a
part of this watchdog group; I'm a little leery of the political
side of what it would take to get it formed and the respect for
people to listen to it. But if people think its a good idea and
higher ups in ASF like it, I'm willing to tag along and help out.

- Stephen

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]