Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Monday 05 April 2010 21:51:34 Nathan Zachary wrote: > On 05/04/10 11:07, Jon Portnoy wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: > >> Just replying randomly. > >> > >> On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: > >>> I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important > >>> questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented > >>> relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the > >>> quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I > >>> just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. > >> > >> I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so > >> demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a > >> single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the > >> exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to > >> see where I missed. It is not that long. > > > > Agreed... > > > > I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we > > originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try > > to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the > > entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a "suggestion" from > > Daniel). > > > > As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful > > in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to > > even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, > > unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, > > but I've seen this often. > > > > IMO, those "boring" "too much like high school" quizzes serve one > > extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player > > (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the > > Greater Good) > > > > If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is > > working as it should? :) > > My problem with the quizzes is not that they have to be done, but rather > the way they are structured. I have read through the dev manual (which > is excellent in explaining some things, and a little rough in others), > but it would be much more enlightening to me to work on creating ebuilds > while working one-on-one with a mentor. For instance, in a recent > ebuild I wrote, the application installed successfully but yielded > sandbox errors. By jumping on IRC and chatting with a few people, I > readily found a solution to that problem. Later, it was brought to my > attention that there were other problems with the ebuild. I would have > never known about these issues solely from the information presented in > the devmanual. Therefore, I think the most valuable aspect of the > recruitment process is "hands-on" time with ebuilds, commits, et cetera > WHILE working with a mentor. > > --Zach This is why it is good to train "wanna-be" developers in our overlays. Studying and blindly answering the quizzes is not enough. They have to work on actuall ebuilds, dealing with as many eclasses as possible and handle all kind of bugs in our bugzilla. In other words, recruitment must not be one- dimensional but it has to cover all aspects of gentoo development -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05-04-2010 18:26, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 04:07:01PM +, Jon Portnoy wrote: > There should be a process of weeding out developers that bitch and/or whine, > but if most of the teams are understaffed then there has to be done something > about it. > The way I see it there are two options: > a) Scale down the size of the operation, reduce packages offered, and if > there are more packages wanted, let the users maintain them. > b) Look at an effective way of making the process of become a developer (and > being a developer for that matter) more attractive. > > The first option could be somewhat simple, we already have overlays so those > could simply be used. The second option (which would be the best IMO) is a > fair bit harder. The first thing that needs to be done is find out why people > don't want to become developers. I've heard a few users mention the quiz, but > it seems that the thing keeping most people away from becoming developers are > all the flame wars that have occured, and the fact that it (to us users) > seems like the council isn't doing much of anything about it. > So while I believe that improving (and/or updating) the recruitment process > is important, I think there would be more success if it seemed like a nice > place to be a part of, and that bad behaviour is dealt with. The Council has a very important role in Gentoo, but if everyone keeps turning to them to do everything, nothing will get done and they'll get swamped trying to do anything. Bad behaviour in the mailing lists is something that all of us have an obligation to prevent and help fix - including every developer and all interested community members. If and when someone violates Gentoo's Code of Conduct[1] and or exhibits a repetitive abrasive behaviour, please contact either the User Relations[2] or the Developer Relations[3] teams in case of an user or a developer. As Petteri already replied, developers who chose to focus in their "corner" are free to ignore most of the mailing lists and have no requirement to participate or even read the flames. In other words, if you'd like to become a developer but have kept away because of the flames, don't worry as you don't have to get involved on them. However and despite all the recent complaints about flames in the mailing lists, as someone that has been following the mailing lists for a while, the amount and level of flames has been substantially reduced in the last 2 years or so. We still have flames, but nothing like we used to have before. Also noteworthy, the number of people involved in the flames is very small and the majority is well known. [1] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml [2] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/userrel/ [3] - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/ - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJLupmUAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPXzgQAISLb1K8s4Fa2ORYK4+Lef/Y YeAYiM5xzNPl6kTi6rJF1IoQwDuaS0G/YfRRtzDYeibcYBE0GLVQL0cAyQDTF371 EvgQblvMpTpay8hiNmtdNAb0X6Bm5WUhZoTeY+ayrh6Yih+cniGP5K+zP70550vQ vvI0y9AdebwZzWrjedeEkUutaxNoBrED7IOfdixDpgD2110NuRcBHpdiBqen0exr Q2iBdG2ynfdEzYyYAgGHvHcjibtlboLe9DWkQ/APW5uOJHCt0M5QW8HtF7eaPvNf DS27KNwzoV1VLKxSD5I6cLFz5+NTikI7htZrxqvqjJx0zdk3X+whDOZBXT+7Amv3 2Jaiym4VCsmVXu2hWtZTlbhh0hp07ybx3NmLqNiRkNXX2636A5dCg6fwAUy/CC/g bmCIMtkTe7oXj+m23AVB1tU5zQuaBMhuV6BucRl3on2bAkSr53Hg0dFbGwwCdiMc FDULTNrXI1c1P5AKrqFWY6wHj6HW+m6rOVPowXHkuMEmde+T152jci0XYVOCj4v4 YjwKvDyQphk2rzb4S7hLTHpiMIzmM3cbt2/u0zfeviRkMueeT+zfIl8PMi3IN+5W fvwbTPEq3Eh1JfEaTDDhcYXeIZjrLFx1Es2MYgBKOVzRXCZm9z1Lm15A0LgjpP9O e09KPDVHG33o/pVc/pqA =AdOw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Nathan Zachary wrote: > [...] but it > would be much more enlightening to me to work on creating ebuilds while > working one-on-one with a mentor. The whole purpose of the training period between the ebuild quiz and the end quiz (see [1]) is exactly this. If your mentor isn't doing that with you then look for another one who will mentor your properly. Don't blame the system when it's not used. Denis. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/mentor.xml
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 05/04/10 11:07, Jon Portnoy wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: > >> Just replying randomly. >> >> On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: >> >>> I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important >>> questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented >>> relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the >>> quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I >>> just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. >>> >> I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so >> demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a >> single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the >> exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to >> see where I missed. It is not that long. >> >> > Agreed... > > I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we > originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try > to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the > entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a "suggestion" from Daniel). > > As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful > in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to > even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, > unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, > but I've seen this often. > > IMO, those "boring" "too much like high school" quizzes serve one > extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player > (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the > Greater Good) > > If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is > working as it should? :) > > My problem with the quizzes is not that they have to be done, but rather the way they are structured. I have read through the dev manual (which is excellent in explaining some things, and a little rough in others), but it would be much more enlightening to me to work on creating ebuilds while working one-on-one with a mentor. For instance, in a recent ebuild I wrote, the application installed successfully but yielded sandbox errors. By jumping on IRC and chatting with a few people, I readily found a solution to that problem. Later, it was brought to my attention that there were other problems with the ebuild. I would have never known about these issues solely from the information presented in the devmanual. Therefore, I think the most valuable aspect of the recruitment process is "hands-on" time with ebuilds, commits, et cetera WHILE working with a mentor. --Zach
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Jon Portnoy wrote: > Which is all well and good -- the "you wrote some ebuilds so here's > your commit privs and @gentoo.org" approach to recruitment worked great > when Gentoo had a few dozen developers. > > Today QA is a bit more important, and development is often rather more > complex than "new version, bump the ebuild" -- it's important that new > developers have a firm understanding of ebuild complexities. That's a very important point. On one side there are developers and would-be developers who want an easier way to recruit people. Most ideas revolve around lowering the technical/social barriers. On the other side there's QA and a bunch of other developers who want fewer people screwing up the tree. Those are proponents of being stricter during the recruiting process (i.e. in the end recruiting fewer people) and firing more devs. None of them though help the poor guys in the middle. Those are the recruiters who could swing completely one way or the other for simplicity, or be more subtle and try and make the best out of the situation and resources. When you're all done barking, and in case you really consider helping here are two things you can do: - join the recruiters - actually *mentor* people to become developers. And by that I don't mean passing them your quiz answers, but really training them and preparing them to become good and well behaved developers. When people ask me how to go about that my usual answer is do as you were teaching your son/little brother how to fly fish (or replace fly fishing with what you do best). Start from the start, progress from there, don't overlook any aspect of the art (there's more to being a dev than writing ebuilds), and be ready to spend hours explaining and re-explaining. If your recruit doesn't get it then it can only be your fault, so try harder. Before you replace/change a system you should first try and make it work. > II don't even like resurfacing to post to -dev. > Just here to offer some insight on why we originally kept the quiz system. Hi Jon, long time no see. Thanks for doing that. Denis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 05:50:49PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: > That assumes the system is working perfectly and the whole fact that > we are having this discussion would go against that. > > From what i've read in the community, lots of people would have no > problems helping out maintaining packages, they just don't want the > baggage that comes with it. > > You could say they're lazy or they're not the "type of developers > you want" but at the end of the day they're just different > developers, most of whom probably just want to make sure the > packages they like are in the tree and updated. Which is all well and good -- the "you wrote some ebuilds so here's your commit privs and @gentoo.org" approach to recruitment worked great when Gentoo had a few dozen developers. Today QA is a bit more important, and development is often rather more complex than "new version, bump the ebuild" -- it's important that new developers have a firm understanding of ebuild complexities. I have no dog in this fight, I don't even like resurfacing to post to -dev. Just here to offer some insight on why we originally kept the quiz system.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/05/2010 09:26 PM, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote: > > The first option could be somewhat simple, we already have overlays > so those could simply be used. The second option (which would be the > best IMO) is a fair bit harder. The first thing that needs to be done > is find out why people don't want to become developers. I've heard a > few users mention the quiz, but it seems that the thing keeping most > people away from becoming developers are all the flame wars that have > occured, and the fact that it (to us users) seems like the council > isn't doing much of anything about it. So while I believe that > improving (and/or updating) the recruitment process is important, I > think there would be more success if it seemed like a nice place to > be a part of, and that bad behaviour is dealt with. > Developers are not required to be subscribed to any of the mailing lists where the huge threads happen so if they want they can just ignore them and go about maintaining their packages. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 05/04/2010 17:07, Jon Portnoy wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: Just replying randomly. On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to see where I missed. It is not that long. Agreed... I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a "suggestion" from Daniel). As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, but I've seen this often. IMO, those "boring" "too much like high school" quizzes serve one extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the Greater Good) If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is working as it should? :) That assumes the system is working perfectly and the whole fact that we are having this discussion would go against that. From what i've read in the community, lots of people would have no problems helping out maintaining packages, they just don't want the baggage that comes with it. You could say they're lazy or they're not the "type of developers you want" but at the end of the day they're just different developers, most of whom probably just want to make sure the packages they like are in the tree and updated.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 04:07:01PM +, Jon Portnoy wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: > > Just replying randomly. > > > > On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: > > > I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important > > > questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented > > > relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the > > > quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I > > > just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. > > > > I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so > > demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a > > single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the > > exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to > > see where I missed. It is not that long. > > > > Agreed... > > I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we > originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try > to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the > entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a "suggestion" from Daniel). > > As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful > in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to > even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, > unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, > but I've seen this often. > > IMO, those "boring" "too much like high school" quizzes serve one > extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player > (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the > Greater Good) > > If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is > working as it should? :) > There should be a process of weeding out developers that bitch and/or whine, but if most of the teams are understaffed then there has to be done something about it. The way I see it there are two options: a) Scale down the size of the operation, reduce packages offered, and if there are more packages wanted, let the users maintain them. b) Look at an effective way of making the process of become a developer (and being a developer for that matter) more attractive. The first option could be somewhat simple, we already have overlays so those could simply be used. The second option (which would be the best IMO) is a fair bit harder. The first thing that needs to be done is find out why people don't want to become developers. I've heard a few users mention the quiz, but it seems that the thing keeping most people away from becoming developers are all the flame wars that have occured, and the fact that it (to us users) seems like the council isn't doing much of anything about it. So while I believe that improving (and/or updating) the recruitment process is important, I think there would be more success if it seemed like a nice place to be a part of, and that bad behaviour is dealt with. -- Zeerak Waseem pgpEY8rDY73LF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: > Just replying randomly. > > On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: > > I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important > > questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented > > relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the > > quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I > > just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. > > I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so > demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a > single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the > exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to > see where I missed. It is not that long. > Agreed... I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a "suggestion" from Daniel). As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, but I've seen this often. IMO, those "boring" "too much like high school" quizzes serve one extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the Greater Good) If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is working as it should? :)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/05/2010 03:48 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 03:33:52 +0200 Tobias Heinlein wrote: 3) Questions that aren't that important at all and would just be "nice to know". [snip] Examples for these: 5. What is wrong with using $(somecommand) or `somecommand` or $ARCH inside SRC_URI, DEPEND, etc? [Devmanual, Caching] How the heck is this not important? Anyone who doesn't immediately know the answer to this has absolutely no business touching any ebuild that might end up being given to someone else. My concern with these kinds of questions is that there really isn't any page where we have key gotchas consolidated like "don't execute external programs in global scope." Sure, it is in the devmanual, and if you read the whole thing then maybe you might remember that one bit in particular. I agree that somebody who doesn't know this particular fact shouldn't be committing ebuilds. My concern is that we don't really have any way to make people aware of that particular fact. Honestly, I think it would be just as effective to simply write up a single webpage with thou shalt not's, and not make people go hunting all over the place to figure out the whys. By all means have a link on each thou shalt not to the reason. There are lots of people who would be perfectly capable of doing many developer activities who might not come in knowing about the metadata cache. They don't need to know the nuts and bolts of how it works, just what they need to do to avoid problems with it. In any case, giving hints as to the location of the answer in this kind of a question seems fine to me. The important thing is that the candidate dev learn about the potential problem - not that they figure it out 100% on their own. Still, the socratic method is a good approach to teaching, so I'm not opposed to the Q&A format of the quiz in general. We just need to let candidates know that we're there to help them succeed and the quiz is a tool - the goal isn't to eliminate any potential contributor who doesn't come to the table knowing as much about Gentoo as any seasoned dev. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/05/2010 05:36 AM, Alistair Bush wrote: >> On 4/3/10 3:40 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: >>> Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? >> >> The idea appeared before, but I think it's worth noting. >> >> Either merge the ebuild and end quizzes, or make the split actually >> meaningful. In my case I just finished both at the same time, but was >> confused why they are separate. I think I've seen similar comments from >> other developers. >> >> I think I'd rather prefer merging the quizzes. > > One thing i've noticed is that the ebuild quiz is far more difficult than the > eom quiz. We seem to have the biggest hurdle first. > > What I would like to see is either the quizzes be merged or > > An "easier" first quiz that covers the basics which after being answered the > user can become a gentoo developer ( ie @gentoo.org email, ssh access to > d.g.o, etc) but no access to push directly to the tree. Instead all commits > must be pushed thru their mentor, who is responsible for qa'ing and giving > advice. Currently I don't think mentors really have much of a role. There > is > certainly no requirement for a mentor to qa their charges commits, but if > they are the ones pushing to the tree the mentor has all the responsibility. > This might just make mentors more responsible for the quality of recruits. > Yeah would be easy to implement if we get git some day. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:48:08AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 03:33:52 +0200 > Tobias Heinlein wrote: > > 3) Questions that aren't that important at all and would just be "nice > > to know". > > [snip] > > Examples for these: > > > > 5. What is wrong with using $(somecommand) or `somecommand` or $ARCH > > inside SRC_URI, DEPEND, etc? > > [Devmanual, Caching] > > How the heck is this not important? Anyone who doesn't immediately know > the answer to this has absolutely no business touching any ebuild that > might end up being given to someone else. That question really needs chunking up offhand- there are valid usages of $(), but the question doesn't really ask when it's not explicitly. You see it, I see it, so lets skip getting into it further lest someone have a very easy google answer on it ;) Either way, file a bug re: it for wording improvements if you'd like. ~harring pgpWfiRITo8We.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 03:33:52 +0200 Tobias Heinlein wrote: > 3) Questions that aren't that important at all and would just be "nice > to know". > [snip] > Examples for these: > > 5. What is wrong with using $(somecommand) or `somecommand` or $ARCH > inside SRC_URI, DEPEND, etc? > [Devmanual, Caching] How the heck is this not important? Anyone who doesn't immediately know the answer to this has absolutely no business touching any ebuild that might end up being given to someone else. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
Just replying randomly. On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: > I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important > questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented > relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the > quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I > just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to see where I missed. It is not that long. What is demotivating is a) lack of response from your mentor/proxy-maintainer etc. It is demotivating when you have to wait for days for each question you ask. b) infighting and name calling one sees on irc, gentoo-dev etc. "Do I really want to be a part of this?" pops into mind. Suggestions: 1. Bring your responsibilities in line with your capabilities. If you are always falling behind, either increase the time you spend on Gentoo or decrease your responsibilities. It is no fun playing catch-up. 2. Streamline the recruitment process so that existing devs do not spend too much time and effort during mentoring. Objective is to make recruitment not a burden on the dev, i.e streamline for the dev not for the candidate. 3. Take it down a notch in gentoo-dev, irc. No ad hominem attacks and no flame wars please. You are supposed to enjoy this. Easier said than done I suppose. -- Eray
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
> On 4/3/10 3:40 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: > > Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? > > The idea appeared before, but I think it's worth noting. > > Either merge the ebuild and end quizzes, or make the split actually > meaningful. In my case I just finished both at the same time, but was > confused why they are separate. I think I've seen similar comments from > other developers. > > I think I'd rather prefer merging the quizzes. One thing i've noticed is that the ebuild quiz is far more difficult than the eom quiz. We seem to have the biggest hurdle first. What I would like to see is either the quizzes be merged or An "easier" first quiz that covers the basics which after being answered the user can become a gentoo developer ( ie @gentoo.org email, ssh access to d.g.o, etc) but no access to push directly to the tree. Instead all commits must be pushed thru their mentor, who is responsible for qa'ing and giving advice. Currently I don't think mentors really have much of a role. There is certainly no requirement for a mentor to qa their charges commits, but if they are the ones pushing to the tree the mentor has all the responsibility. This might just make mentors more responsible for the quality of recruits. Some of this could be done regardless of whether there are separate quizzes or not obviously. But I think it creates a nice workflow. - Alistair.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
I'd first like to extend the idea of bug #312977. It's basically about a different level of detail for each question. I think the quiz questions can be divided into different groups: 1) Questions that are fun to answer. People should either already know the answer, know where to look, or be willing to figure the answers out themselves without a hint to specific docs. 2) Questions about stuff that people NEED to know for day-to-day development, but that aren't much fun to answer. Petteri's proposed level of detail would be appropriate here. 3) Questions that aren't that important at all and would just be "nice to know". These are the ones that make people give up on the quizzes because they are boring and the answers hard to find. Most people would like to see this kind of questions dropped entirely, but recruiter's point is that people should know about them, even though they aren't fun. This is why for these I'd add a more exact pointer to the docs, similar to the way we do in the interviews when a recruit doesn't know an answer. This way they won't be demotivated because they won't have to search for too long, yet know the answer and remember it when they need it someday. Examples for these: 5. What is the Gentoo Foundation? How does one apply for membership and who are eligible? [Gentoo Foundation Bylaws, "Members"] 5. What is wrong with using $(somecommand) or `somecommand` or $ARCH inside SRC_URI, DEPEND, etc? [Devmanual, Caching] I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the "some important questions are too hard to answer" dilemma that can be implemented relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. As soon as we have implemented that, we can think about how to make the ebuild-related questions more interesting by using tasks and example ebuilds. I guess this part will take a longer time. basile wrote, on 04/04/2010 05:16 PM: > The learning flow should go something like this: > [..] I like that idea. However, I would combine writing the example ebuild (i.e. "doing the task") and answering questions. There's no need to show twice what you have learnt. Also, some of our questions could pretty easily be replaced by doing a task, some cannot.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 4 April 2010 11:43, Petteri Räty wrote: > Mentors can already suggest their students to do them in reverse order. > As always patches to separate technical and organizational stuff to > their own quizzes are accepted. My time on recruiting is quite maxed out > already. Doing this means just not fixing the quizzes but bringing all > the recruiting documentation up2date. We do realize that recruiters are already stretched to their limits. So I propose a few other people form a team to design an improved recruitment process, including any curriculum and documentation materials needed. Obviously this team would confer with recruiters and incorporate their feedback into its work. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 04/03/10 21:00, Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek) wrote: > >>Maybe if we could find the way to make the knowledge found in >> quizzes be more "exciting" to new devs, then we could still have a >> strong recruitment process without the burden of completing the >> quizzes. So, what I propose is to transform the "quizzes" part of the >> process into a list of tasks the prospect should complete in order to >> gain the necessary ability to "pass". This ability could be measured >> in points or just by task completed. >> > > Nice idea! > > > I am a dev in training. My mentors are now looking over my end quiz. I am also an IT professor and teach software engineering. The learning process was somewhat lacking in that I found myself often just searching for answers rather than performing some exercise. It would help if we had exercises where the prospective dev is guided through writing some ebuild and then commits it to some "play" overlay. He/she can do this over and over until the ebuild works, and then answers quiz questions. I effectively did this -> I wrote some helloworld-xxx.tgz tarballs with various issues and then wrote ebuilds to build/install the package, committed them to a git overlay I set up, etc. Also, when I asnwered the quiz questions, I documented the references where I found the answers and I documented a link to my ebuilds on my git repo. The learning flow should go something like this: 1) Read this documentation, eg. http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ section on Eclass Writing and Tool References 2) Write an ebuild/eclass to do something, with skeleton howto steps, eg. name transformation like versionator (don't worry if its already been done) 3) Commit to the play overlay 4) Test the ebuild/eclass 5) Answer ebuild questions 6) Go back to step 1 and address the next issue. -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Chair of Information Technology D'Youville College Buffalo, NY 14201 USA (716) 829-8197 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/04/2010 12:48 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 04/03/10 21:00, Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek) wrote: >>Maybe if we could find the way to make the knowledge found in >> quizzes be more "exciting" to new devs, then we could still have a >> strong recruitment process without the burden of completing the >> quizzes. So, what I propose is to transform the "quizzes" part of the >> process into a list of tasks the prospect should complete in order to >> gain the necessary ability to "pass". This ability could be measured >> in points or just by task completed. > > Nice idea! > > >>This doesn't address them either. But I really don't think this is >> the main issue that causes the problem :) So I guess these questions >> could remain in one "easy" quiz. > > While you mention the non-technical part: I imagine a gain out of moving > that part to the very end of recruiting: to when people know they almost > made it. Especially putting up these questions first, turns some people > away too: The problem is they get the wrong impression that being will > be about these boring things later on, but it isn't. > > Betelgeuse, what do you think? > Mentors can already suggest their students to do them in reverse order. As always patches to separate technical and organizational stuff to their own quizzes are accepted. My time on recruiting is quite maxed out already. Doing this means just not fixing the quizzes but bringing all the recruiting documentation up2date. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/03/10 21:00, Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek) wrote: >Maybe if we could find the way to make the knowledge found in > quizzes be more "exciting" to new devs, then we could still have a > strong recruitment process without the burden of completing the > quizzes. So, what I propose is to transform the "quizzes" part of the > process into a list of tasks the prospect should complete in order to > gain the necessary ability to "pass". This ability could be measured > in points or just by task completed. Nice idea! >This doesn't address them either. But I really don't think this is > the main issue that causes the problem :) So I guess these questions > could remain in one "easy" quiz. While you mention the non-technical part: I imagine a gain out of moving that part to the very end of recruiting: to when people know they almost made it. Especially putting up these questions first, turns some people away too: The problem is they get the wrong impression that being will be about these boring things later on, but it isn't. Betelgeuse, what do you think? Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/03/10 16:05, Petteri Räty wrote: > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ > > I don't know if developers know that this page is autogenerated from > individual project pages these days so it's easy for any developer to > get stuff there. Has anyone every tried to read that page? It's such a pain to that I doubt it. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
Hi guys, On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: > On 3 April 2010 13:33, Richard Freeman wrote: >> I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. Right >> now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a Gentoo dev >> and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have great people, >> but not many of them. > > I agree. So what can we do to improve this process? > > I myself am not fond of the quizzes, and from what I've seen most > recruits find them tedious as well. It can be quite demotivating, > maybe because it reminds one too much of highschool or something. > I took a long time myself to finish them, and that wouldn't have > been necessary, as my mentors ensured me I was ready to become a > dev. And I see the same thing happening with some of my own recruits. > They can be ready, but just find the quizzes a chore. > I understand that quizzes serve a purpose and IMHO, are a good way to face common issues when writing ebuilds. On the other hand, I understand that quizzes are lengthy and could become a blocker in the recruitment process (I have met at least two prospects drop out due to the inability to finish them, being for lack of time to concentrate or because they got bored by the chore.) Maybe if we could find the way to make the knowledge found in quizzes be more "exciting" to new devs, then we could still have a strong recruitment process without the burden of completing the quizzes. So, what I propose is to transform the "quizzes" part of the process into a list of tasks the prospect should complete in order to gain the necessary ability to "pass". This ability could be measured in points or just by task completed. Then it gets interesting for them and for us. Those tasks could be to tackle problems from the quizzes but in real ebuilds (prepared by us for this, much as when recruiters ask us to clean some ebuild) or could be tasks created by teams to specifically address common issues in their domain if the prospect is trying to join them or shows an interest on helping this specific team. > Of course this doesn't address the organizational side of things, so > we need to come up with something else for that. This doesn't address them either. But I really don't think this is the main issue that causes the problem :) So I guess these questions could remain in one "easy" quiz. > -- > Ben de Groot > Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer > > If I can be of any assistance in this, I'll gladly help. -- Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek) Gentoo Python Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 03/04/2010 15:05, Petteri Räty wrote: On 04/03/2010 04:53 PM, George Prowse wrote: Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited knowlege to help out http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ I don't know if developers know that this page is autogenerated from individual project pages these days so it's easy for any developer to get stuff there. Looking at that page it seems clear that that is not a comprehensive list. Maybe if all herds posted who and what they require like this: Java Herd 2 people needed - Essential: Java knowlege Recommended - Javascript and ebuild writing If no-one is willing to put a plan forward then I might acquiesce to do it.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/03/2010 04:53 PM, George Prowse wrote: > > Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a > willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them > to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo > wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified > developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited > knowlege to help out > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ I don't know if developers know that this page is autogenerated from individual project pages these days so it's easy for any developer to get stuff there. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 04/03/2010 04:40 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: > > Another problem I see is that our documentation seems to be scattered > all over the place. I propose that we make at least one portal page > for (prospective) developers that will link them to all the resources > they might need. It also means our existing documentation needs to > be brought and kept up to date. > As I said elsewhere I support adding information to each question about what piece of documentation has the answer. I will get to it eventually but patches get us there faster. https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312977 Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 03/04/2010 14:40, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 April 2010 13:33, Richard Freeman wrote: I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have great people, but not many of them. I agree. So what can we do to improve this process? I myself am not fond of the quizzes, and from what I've seen most recruits find them tedious as well. It can be quite demotivating, maybe because it reminds one too much of highschool or something. I took a long time myself to finish them, and that wouldn't have been necessary, as my mentors ensured me I was ready to become a dev. And I see the same thing happening with some of my own recruits. They can be ready, but just find the quizzes a chore. So I think we need to rethink how to do this. What I have found very helpful is to have my recruits working on actual ebuilds. The sunrise project is ideally qualified to mold ebuild editors into shape. Working on official overlays such as qting-edge and/or doing proxy maintenance is also very helpful. Recruiters (with some additional manpower) could make a list of technical issues that recruits need to be aware of, and then gather a number of ebuilds that display these problems and let recruits correct some of these, under guidance of their mentors. This may possibly be more fun and closer to the actual work that is required of developers. Of course this doesn't address the organizational side of things, so we need to come up with something else for that. Another problem I see is that our documentation seems to be scattered all over the place. I propose that we make at least one portal page for (prospective) developers that will link them to all the resources they might need. It also means our existing documentation needs to be brought and kept up to date. Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? I suggested a while ago that you should have recruitment drives and recruitment days. Set aside a day where a few devs can answer any questions about what it takes to be a developer - the skills required, the time that needs to be set aside, the behavior expected and goals that developers aspire to. Set up some threads on the forums, a channel on irc, a list like gentoo-recruitment and a FAQ on the front page of the website. Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited knowlege to help out "If you build it, they will come"
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 4/3/10 3:40 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: > Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? The idea appeared before, but I think it's worth noting. Either merge the ebuild and end quizzes, or make the split actually meaningful. In my case I just finished both at the same time, but was confused why they are separate. I think I've seen similar comments from other developers. I think I'd rather prefer merging the quizzes. Paweł Hajdan jr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 3 April 2010 13:33, Richard Freeman wrote: > I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. Right > now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a Gentoo dev > and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have great people, > but not many of them. I agree. So what can we do to improve this process? I myself am not fond of the quizzes, and from what I've seen most recruits find them tedious as well. It can be quite demotivating, maybe because it reminds one too much of highschool or something. I took a long time myself to finish them, and that wouldn't have been necessary, as my mentors ensured me I was ready to become a dev. And I see the same thing happening with some of my own recruits. They can be ready, but just find the quizzes a chore. So I think we need to rethink how to do this. What I have found very helpful is to have my recruits working on actual ebuilds. The sunrise project is ideally qualified to mold ebuild editors into shape. Working on official overlays such as qting-edge and/or doing proxy maintenance is also very helpful. Recruiters (with some additional manpower) could make a list of technical issues that recruits need to be aware of, and then gather a number of ebuilds that display these problems and let recruits correct some of these, under guidance of their mentors. This may possibly be more fun and closer to the actual work that is required of developers. Of course this doesn't address the organizational side of things, so we need to come up with something else for that. Another problem I see is that our documentation seems to be scattered all over the place. I propose that we make at least one portal page for (prospective) developers that will link them to all the resources they might need. It also means our existing documentation needs to be brought and kept up to date. Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
