Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: I do not see why it is considdered hard for users to get involved. Users have at least two choices that I can think of right now, and probably a number that I cannot think of. 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. Sunrise should not really be about replacing current ebuilds, but offering some support for those packages that are useful for some, but that do not have enough usage that a developer wants to put it into the tree. 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer, I do not see why two quizzes is considdered an insurmountable task, the quizzes are specifically designed to ensure that people writing ebuilds understand what ebuilds can contain and what they cannot, I could not imagine a user wanting to install a package from an ebuild written by someone that does not know this. They first need to be invited to start the whole process. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpTSDLQV40v3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Wednesday 02 August 2006 15:27, Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. How does that help? User goes to bugzilla or User goes to sunrise User still has to go somewhere outside of the tree. Thanks -- Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 8/2/06, Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 02 August 2006 15:27, Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. How does that help? User goes to bugzilla or User goes to sunrise User still has to go somewhere outside of the tree. Thanks http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#ButBugzillaisactuallyeasier -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 02:53:58PM -0500, Alex Tarkovsky wrote: http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#ButBugzillaisactuallyeasier says: We do think that Sunrise is easier. [..] But in contrast to that it requires more knowledge and tools to get something into sunrise - more work for contributors. Also contributors have to get their ebuilds reviewed before committing - bugzilla is easier here. So perhaps some things are more complicated and each solution has their (dis-)advantages. Hence it's not always best to drop a line to a FAQ to prove a point. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpHxUNjJIVQu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Monday 31 July 2006 04:52, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. load up your browser and check out how many bugs are assigned to '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' This isn't the problem. We'll never can maintain all this stuff - given the number of people we're. We need more devs - just to clean up the current tree and maintain it properly at it's current size one- or two hundred (having fluctuation in mind) more guys wouldn't harm. The problem is more that we have devs who constantly add (arbitrary) stuff to the tree, instead cleaning out and caring for unmaintained stuff, before adding something new. opening a bug, putting together an ebuild/patches/etc..., and then watching it sit there and bitrot for weeks, months, and in the extreme case years certainly is anything but encouraging especially considering that by the time a developer gets an interest in the posted ebuild, the ebuild/patches/etc... are now bitrotted and need just as much work to get them up and working with the latest release This is still a community distro. That means we need people who want to become become devs to maintain more. That simple. Surise won't help in this regard. It's just an extended repository for lazy people, who don't care for security with the side effect of increased bug spam. plus the timeframe from saying hey i'd like to develop to actually getting your own commit access is heftier than many would like to undertake ... Is it? I got new devs on board within a few weeks. It could always be better, but I think that's reasonable. Do you have numbers? Has devrel a statistic? In my experience it's more that a lot of people moan, but don't want to become active. Carsten pgp3cv7QN61Oo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 10:50:31PM -0400, Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise. I know of only one developer who left. He left in a huff, in an emotional I'm taking toys, because I don't like them way, without actually raising any issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA. Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting place. Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus). At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people uneasy with the current sunrise project). Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting. I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's not really my point either. *This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to leave the project. Regards, Bryan Østergaard PS. Sorry genstef about picking at you but I don't know how you managed to forget everything that was agreed upon on our meeting. 21:56 @Koon Have all the reasonable objections been addressed ? 21:56 @Koon because you'll never satisfy those who want it dead anyway 21:56 +genstef I hope so. If you can point something more out to me I would love to hear it - our meeting ended up with some concerns that you even agreed to yourself by keeping sunrise unofficial. [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Friday 28 July 2006 01:55, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: So long and thank you for all the fish, Brix I really hate to return home from a long weekend to read these kind of emails. I'm very sad to see you go, you really improved alot on the wireless experience! Good luck with your future projects and I hope we'll share a beer some day:-) -- Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen Gentoo Linux Security Team pgpLDVwoMZRF0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Friday 28 July 2006 06:02, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? as the thread on gentoo-dev was named: sunrise, a temporary compromise looks to me like most people (rightly) thought of the meeting as resulting in a temporary solution I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. complete garbage if you arent reading the e-mails on the gentoo-dev list which were in reply to your own postings, then that is simply your own fault ... i was cc-ing you to make sure you saw those e-mails, and your reaction was: PS: There is no need to CC: me on replies. Please use reply-to-list. Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known same as above, complete garbage that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. reverting a temporary suspension ? what a crazy idea there were many threads asking for people to look at the latest Sunrise state and comment/complain/whatever with no more negative responses ... if developers arent posting negative feedback and issues appear to be resolved on gentoo-dev, then what else would you expect the Council to do ? -mike pgpRYVA6YVCsw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 17:51:09 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | then what else would you expect the Council to do ? Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. The council is, after all, supposed to serve as the last line of defence against people pushing through bad changes. Council members are supposed to be able to judge proposals based upon their merits, not the persistence of those trying to have them pushed through without following the proper process. There's no pawning the blame for this one off on arbitrary developers. Most of them don't have time to keep up with the kind of dirty tricks being used here. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 18:07, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. hard to address any sort of concerns here, so i guess i'll just regurgitate the council log to you it's hard for users to get involved in our development process ... i imagine some consider that a feature, but it leaves a large portion of our community out in the cold sunrise is attempting to fill that gap via some controversial methods ... in review, we deemed that the many concerns raised were pretty much addressed and any more requests for criticism and useful critiques either went unanswered or people piped up saying that they were happy with the latest state i (nor anyone else) cannot say whether this venture will succeed, only time will prove out the project ... sitting around and clamoring for more openness while killing every attempt at it gets us nowhere we take a risk with this project (like every single other project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we kill it, no big deal -mike pgpLtIN7EbqwQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 30 July 2006 18:07, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. hard to address any sort of concerns here, so i guess i'll just regurgitate the council log to you it's hard for users to get involved in our development process ... i imagine some consider that a feature, but it leaves a large portion of our community out in the cold I do not see why it is considdered hard for users to get involved. Users have at least two choices that I can think of right now, and probably a number that I cannot think of. 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer, I do not see why two quizzes is considdered an insurmountable task, the quizzes are specifically designed to ensure that people writing ebuilds understand what ebuilds can contain and what they cannot, I could not imagine a user wanting to install a package from an ebuild written by someone that does not know this. sunrise is attempting to fill that gap via some controversial methods ... in review, we deemed that the many concerns raised were pretty much addressed and any more requests for criticism and useful critiques either went unanswered or people piped up saying that they were happy with the latest state i (nor anyone else) cannot say whether this venture will succeed, only time will prove out the project ... sitting around and clamoring for more openness while killing every attempt at it gets us nowhere we take a risk with this project (like every single other project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we kill it, no big deal -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise. I know of only one developer who left. He left in a huff, in an emotional I'm taking toys, because I don't like them way, without actually raising any issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA. Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting place. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. load up your browser and check out how many bugs are assigned to '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' opening a bug, putting together an ebuild/patches/etc..., and then watching it sit there and bitrot for weeks, months, and in the extreme case years certainly is anything but encouraging especially considering that by the time a developer gets an interest in the posted ebuild, the ebuild/patches/etc... are now bitrotted and need just as much work to get them up and working with the latest release 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer our developer system does not cater to the one package per developer organizational style ... as such, would be maintainers need to learn a lot more about Gentoo than they may ever actually need plus the timeframe from saying hey i'd like to develop to actually getting your own commit access is heftier than many would like to undertake ... of course this system is by design to try and weed out flakes and make sure that people granted access to the whole tree can be pretty well trusted -mike pgpDecZZbjoMf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:35, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? trying to make everyone happy with every topic that comes up is just never going to happen -mike pgpiV3Yk4CfRM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 04:06 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis A user list of a channel doesn't actually say anything. Please elaborate. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
I am only a user and have been keeping out of this debate but I feel I need to at least express my thoughts. I have been folllowing the Sunrise thread(s) since it started. I have done a couple of ebuilds a long time ago and would love to have been able to contribute to Gentoo but due to time constraints - not enough of it G - I just can't. I have been a longtime Gentoo user and have loved it because A) it had no rpms (I had to write them for Caldera), B). It allowed me to configure a system for me quickly that ran well without bloat C) It was easy to keep updated - no hassling with Yast, yum, apt-get, etc. and D). it was dependable - you could download the x86 and know it would work with very few issues. However, I am going to be building a new system from scratch and this sunrise mess is causing me to revevaluate my choice of distro. My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. It's a BMG that's offical! My concern - for users - is that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when they don't - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer. Gentoo provides a means for people to participate on several levels. They can do as I did and do a few ebuild and submit them to bugzilla - if there's enough demand then they'll eventually get in portage. They can also take a quiz and do ebuilds on a more official level. Or they can work to be a developer. All of these paths ensure that we have proper QA and control. The sunrise people seem bent out of shape that ebuilds sit in bugzilla and don't get in the tree. One comment was that it's discouraging. Well, tough - the user who submitted it can get over it and realize that the application that is so precious to him is not that wonderful to anyone else. I did with mine - I understood that I did them to accomplish something I needed and I put them in bugzilla just in case anyone else had a need but I had no expectation of them going into portage. In fact one of my ebuilds was based on another ebuild someone put in portage for the same reason - the author had a need, wrote an ebuild and then shared it. If a user really wants his ebuild in portage he'll take the quiz and become a more official part of Gentoo - but he will have been tested and checked out. I administer systems (mainly Windows but also AIX and LInux - and Linux is my main home system!) at my job in IT Operations. Some of my systems can shutdown the business if I mess up. That's why I do things like run upgrades on test systems or use VMware to test out before I turn the changes loose. At home I also need my system to run and work. I won't be downloading Sunrise stuff but I UNDERSTAND the consequences - most users will not understand as they figure It's gentoo so it works. Look at the confusion with ~arch vs arch. People go with ~arch and then get upset when it breaks. I know I'm only one user but I'm really disappointed that the Council turned sunrise official. It gives me serious concern a bout Gentoo's reliablity and their reputation. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- Brett I. Holcomb -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 23:32, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. no, read the FAQ http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#Howareyouensuringthatthereisnob0rken/maliciuscodegettingintotheoverlay - for users - is that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when they don't - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer. i wont try and guess at what users will expect ... you can document everything and still there will be people who wont read them -mike pgpdkVXKoMlxU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:42, Seemant Kulleen wrote: OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- Brett I. Holcomb -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Brett I. Holcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Every single user-authored submission made available in the public overlay was placed there by existing Gentoo developers who've reviewed and approved them. When you check out Sunrise using layman for instance, you are getting what's known as the reviewed tree, not the tree that users commit directly to. If these facts still don't assuage your concerns then don't use the Sunrise overlay -- it's that simple. I suspect this myth perpetuates because its supporters haven't actually bothered to review the Sunrise procedures [2] already in place and in use. Another source of enlightenment which many, if not all, of the detractors don't seem to have indulged in is dropping by #gentoo-sunrise and watching the Sunrise process as it happens in practice. Please do your homework people, otherwise you're just spreading FUD. [1] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq [2] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/HowToCommit -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community. I always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo projects and become what Sunrise is today. The way I read you, your fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown number of people. Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site and their commit histories and changesets? They're not exactly dawdling. As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it characterised that way :) If it has that reputation, then it will actually take a lot to break that. I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't already break it. I agree that the official portage tree is a QA nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date -- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the outset, instead of as an afterthought. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. It's an exchange of ideas, there shouldn't be hard feelings on anyone's part. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 Alex Tarkovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 05:27 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? Is this sort of degeneration really necessary? Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? I think, again, people are not looking at Sunrise as a training ground. It's better to start teaching people QA, and doing so in an active rather than a passive medium. Again, I haven't yet seen a reason to kill Sunrise. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:36:36 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 05:27 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? | | Is this sort of degeneration really necessary? Considering how one of the major concerns about Sunrise is the QA aspect, I'd say that the ability of those in charge of its QA is extremely relevant... -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:42:52 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What, honestly, are people worried about with Sunrise? Partly, the part where it's run by people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA, who will be taking code from people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA and giving it to other people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA. Partly, the way it's bypassing the normal herd system and allowing unqualified developers to push code related to things they don't understand. Partly, the way it's being pushed through without proper discussion and without following the proper processes that're used to reduce the risk of major screwup. Sunrise is the wrong solution to a misrepresented problem being run by the wrong people. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 Alex Tarkovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? I'm not certain what you're insinuating here, but yes, I'm a Sunrise contributor so I work with these Gentoo devs and watch them interact with everyone daily. They're quite competent, hard-working, friendly and helpful. Thanks largely in part to their efforts, 4 regular Sunrise contributors have already decided to increase their involvement by becoming trusted committers, and they may very soon become full-fledged Gentoo developers (the traditional way of course). Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? Sunrise only became functional about a month ago. Give it time. It's true there are only 4 Gentoo devs *currently* presiding, but they only oversee the ~150 ebuilds that are currently in Sunrise. As Sunrise succeeds (and all indications are it's working quite well so far), more Gentoo devs will no doubt choose to participate. Also note that it isn't Sunrise's goal to move every single maintainer-wanted/maintainer-needed ebuild into the overlay, so it's not fair to judge the project's capabilities against such a lofty standard. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:50:40 -0400 Brett I. Holcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Continue with *top-posting* as it is. Does Gentoo gives more choises to users or not? With the freedom/choise comes the responsibility (if anything breaks). Gentoo is known not to be for *everybody* (unless he/she is willing to learn quite stubborn to use it). These ebuilds *are* already in Bugzilla, and for some there're people interested in maintaining/improving them. IMHO this is better then an ebuild/s which seats for 2-3 years and is of *outstanding quality*. The world is in motion not static. The overall concern (for me) with 'sunrise' similar is the availability (in advance) of some *good/understandable* information about some consequences in using such project/s. Just a warning no more. All this on main docs page (to be visible). E.g. some of the current *semi/official* overlays mess with the versions in the *main tree* so i have to mask/unmask things to do what i want (i accept this). Just my point of view, no more. Rumen My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:42, Seemant Kulleen wrote: OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. No big deal, though. Best of luck to all of you, including the people behind Project Sunrise. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgp0KqzyafX8t.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Fri, 2006-07-28 at 12:02 +0200, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? Apparently they changed their minds, as Mike did state (as well as genstef) in that thread. I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. Err, I miss to comprehend above??? You saw the item on the meeting agenda, made vague complaints, but yet did not know about this? Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. Ditto, same again as above. I cannot see how you can state you did not know about it when you did actually complain about re-evaluating it. No big deal, though. Best of luck to all of you, including the people behind Project Sunrise. Do not get me wrong, the little I worked with you was not unpleasant or anything, and I really have no need or want to see you go, but your reasoning just do not add up. Anyhow, good luck whichever way you choose to go. Regards, -- Martin Schlemmer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users, On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote: To my fellow Gentoo developers and users, In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of the overlay: Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer. Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll miss you guys and gals. I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there. I can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] should anybody have any questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them. I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step up and finish it. So long and thank you for all the fish, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpehjJjlZS3n.pgp Description: PGP signature
