Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On 30 June 2011 04:47, Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? -mike Why can't we just split up functions.sh into /lib/output.sh containing the init script independent (but often gentoo specific) output stuff, and have functions.sh source this. Output.sh would be provided by a separate package (why not baselayout) and the packages using those would rewrite their stuff to use the right location. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Researcher Mail: paul.devri...@gmail.com Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 08:58, Paul de Vrieze wrote: Why can't we just split up functions.sh into /lib/output.sh we're not changing the file name containing the init script independent (but often gentoo specific) output stuff, and have functions.sh source this. Output.sh would be provided by a separate package (why not baselayout) and the packages using those would rewrite their stuff to use the right location. we're not splitting the source trees. the reasons have already been detailed in the bug open on the topic. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Jun 30, 2011 11:06 AM, Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: we're not splitting the source trees. the reasons have already been detailed in the bug open on the topic. -mike I think we're generally aiming for perfection when we should be pragmatic. The proposed solution isn't ideal, but is workable and I think that further improvement should wait until systemd/etc is mainstream (if ever). There is a similar tendency in the tags thread to aim for the revolutionary and elegant solution for everything when we basically just need some search keywords to get started... Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:47:42 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? Have you even heard the word called 'context'? It might be too short for your taste. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 17:14, Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:47:42 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? Have you even heard the word called 'context'? It might be too short for your taste. perhaps if you focused less on being snarky and more on the thread content, you'd realize that the context here is providing /etc/init.d/functions.sh support for non-openrc users. that was the point of William's e-mail that is at the start of this current context. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:16:14 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 17:14, Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:47:42 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? Have you even heard the word called 'context'? It might be too short for your taste. perhaps if you focused less on being snarky and more on the thread content, you'd realize that the context here is providing /etc/init.d/functions.sh support for non-openrc users. that was the point of William's e-mail that is at the start of this current context. And if you focused more on reading what others write, you'd realize that the whole citation here mentions only installing init.d scripts and /etc/runlevels? -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:30:51PM +0200, Michał Górny wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:16:14 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 17:14, Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:47:42 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? Have you even heard the word called 'context'? It might be too short for your taste. perhaps if you focused less on being snarky and more on the thread content, you'd realize that the context here is providing /etc/init.d/functions.sh support for non-openrc users. that was the point of William's e-mail that is at the start of this current context. And if you focused more on reading what others write, you'd realize that the whole citation here mentions only installing init.d scripts and /etc/runlevels? We are trying to hash out a way to make /etc/init.d/functions.sh available to all users, regardless of the init system they are using. The issue is that right now /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a symbolic link owned by OpenRC which points to /lib/rc/sh/functions.sh. Also, /lib/rc/sh/functions.sh in openrc really isn't much of a script, most of the e* functions are part of the /sbin/rc binary which is a multi call binary. We have some gentoo base functions which should be available on all gentoo systems built into the OpenRC init system. This was fine in the day when OpenRC was the only init system we used, but now it isn't fine because it is requiring everyone to have OpenRC and sysvinit installed even if they do not want to use them. I do not want to deprecate *any* gentoo base functions. I just want to make them all available in a way that does not force a dependency on OpenRC and sysvinit. The discussion on the bug has now evolved to having a separate package, gentoo-base-functions, that provides these base functions. William pgpodFV8Q0eeX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 17:30, Michał Górny wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:16:14 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 17:14, Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:47:42 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? Have you even heard the word called 'context'? It might be too short for your taste. perhaps if you focused less on being snarky and more on the thread content, you'd realize that the context here is providing /etc/init.d/functions.sh support for non-openrc users. that was the point of William's e-mail that is at the start of this current context. And if you focused more on reading what others write, you'd realize that the whole citation here mentions only installing init.d scripts and /etc/runlevels? umm, no. that's actually the opposite of what William said. the ultimate direction is exactly as i described, and William is hashing out different ways to get there. so yes, focus less on snarky and more on contributing something useful. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 01:48:16 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 01:48:16 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. So... Gentoo's base system can never change, and hence new init systems are not welcome. Okay. Got it. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:07:52 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. Is it documented and specified? If not, can it be? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:12, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 01:48:16 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. So... Gentoo's base system can never change, and hence new init systems are not welcome. Okay. Got it. you really should refrain from inserting words into other people's mouths. at no point did i ever make this statement. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:14, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:07:52 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. Is it documented and specified? If not, can it be? the file path ? or the API that it provides ? -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
2011/6/28 Olivier Crête: As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. systemd is limited (acknowledged by its author and encoded in its basic design) in what it supports. the set of systems that openrc supports is significantly larger and simpler (by design). i really cant see it being replaced by systemd. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:36:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:14, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:07:52 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. Is it documented and specified? If not, can it be? the file path ? or the API that it provides ? Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 01:48:16 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. So... Gentoo's base system can never change, and hence new init systems are not welcome. Okay. Got it. What is this I don't even... Let's try this again: Michał said Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. Mike then said except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo and then further explained what he meant. So... wtf? Matt
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:38, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:36:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:14, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:07:52 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. Is it documented and specified? If not, can it be? the file path ? or the API that it provides ? Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? i'm not sure where this could be documented other than openrc itself. but if that appeases people, then that should be trivial to take care of. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
probably not worth getting into -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:47:36 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? I seem to recall duplicating the colours stuff for Eselect too. But the variable names seem to be different there, and the 'portageq' call screws around with things, so perhaps by now things have diverged to the extent that it's easier to just keep similar but different code around. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:53, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:47:36 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? I seem to recall duplicating the colours stuff for Eselect too. But the variable names seem to be different there, and the 'portageq' call screws around with things, so perhaps by now things have diverged to the extent that it's easier to just keep similar but different code around. the env var names should be the same as they've always been, but this wasnt generally something i focused on. i dont think PMS does either. although in looking and some scripts which use it, they sometimes leverage the env vars directly, so i guess encoding it should be simple enough. just documenting what has always been. openrc's functions.sh doesnt call portageq, so i'm not sure what you're referring to there. the func names and behavior between openrc shouldnt have diverged from what portage/PMS does. if it has, probably should open a bug for it. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? eselect also uses other functions from it, like rc_runlevel(). Ulrich
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On 06/29/11 03:07, Olivier Crête wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. We tolerate the systemd madness as long as it doesn't interfere with other things. But as OpenRC has some rare features (being able to start and stop stuff and being reasonably fast among them) and there's no replacement at the moment I see no reason to add a convoluted mess of insanity just to feel good. -- Patrick Lauer http://service.gentooexperimental.org Gentoo Council Member and Evangelist Part of Gentoo Benchmarks, Forensics, PostgreSQL, KDE herds
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 07:38:45 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:36:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 02:14, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:07:52 -0400 Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). it isnt going anywhere, and painting it as something in flux at this point is disingenuous. Is it documented and specified? If not, can it be? the file path ? or the API that it provides ? Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. I'm not sure if it is a good idea to source a script mangling PATH there. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On 06/29/2011 05:08 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: On 06/29/11 03:07, Olivier Crête wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. We tolerate the systemd madness as long as it doesn't interfere with other things. But as OpenRC has some rare features (being able to start and stop stuff and being reasonably fast among them) and there's no replacement at the moment I see no reason to add a convoluted mess of insanity just to feel good. Hi Patrick, I started the madness :) But it wasn't because I didn't prefer openrc over all other init systems, but because I wanted to create minimal chroot environments without any init system whatsoever. In addition to opening up the choice for our users, this also avoids ugly DEPENDs in our ebuilds, like eix or gentoolkit which, strictly speaking, should depend on openrc to provide functions.sh and don't currently. -- Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D. Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened] E-Mail: bluen...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 8040 5A4D 8709 21B1 1A88 33CE 979C AF40 D045 5535 GnuPG ID : D0455535
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: We tolerate the systemd madness as long as it doesn't interfere with other things. I'd say that welcome is a better word than tolerate - after all, Gentoo is about choice. :) Still, I do agree that we should avoid disruptive changes to existing system packages for the sake of packages that are still fairly experimental on Gentoo. The most elegant solution is probably to split up openrc, but the original suggestion was to just make an openrc-lite of some sort and that seems like a much safer interim solution until systemd has some kind of critical mass around it. By then there might be a few other experimental init systems floating around and any serious changes might be more informed than anything we do now. The advantages and disadvantages of any particular init system, desktop environment, or text-editor/OS-combo aren't terribly relevant to this issue. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
В Срд, 29/06/2011 в 07:53 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh пишет: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:47:36 -0400 Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: Both. There's code in Paludis that duplicates a bunch of that stuff simply because I wasn't sure what I could and couldn't rely upon. the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? I seem to recall duplicating the colours stuff for Eselect too. But the variable names seem to be different there, and the 'portageq' call screws around with things, so perhaps by now things have diverged to the extent that it's easier to just keep similar but different code around. Having single location for this functions allows system wide customization of colors... Personally I'd like to have this functions in separate package. What if we'll provide two tarballs from the single openrc sources, e.g. efunctions.tar.bz2 and openrc.tar.bz2, and correspodingly two packages? openrc tarbal will have code for efunctions included but its installation will be disabled in ebuild. This way we'll have full openrc sources for those who need it and in Gentoo we'll have separate package with efunctions for other packages to depend on. -- Peter.
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 2011-06-29 at 11:08 +0200, Patrick Lauer wrote: On 06/29/11 03:07, Olivier Crête wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. We tolerate the systemd madness as long as it doesn't interfere with other things. But as OpenRC has some rare features (being able to start and stop stuff and being reasonably fast among them) and there's no replacement at the moment I see no reason to add a convoluted mess of insanity just to feel good. I think you're missing how systemd is above and beyond OpenRC (and all other init systems). It has stuff like using cgroups to guarantee that all the processes associated with a service have stopped (openrc doesn't do that), it provides very fast boot (openrc doesn't do that), it can activate services on demand (openrc doesn't do that), etc.. And you also underestimate the amount of momentum that Lennart has managed to amass behind systemd. I expect that much sooner than you think, we won't have a choice but to switch to systemd as many core components will start depending on it. -- Olivier Crête tes...@gentoo.org Gentoo Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On 06/29/11 17:14, Olivier Crête wrote: On Wed, 2011-06-29 at 11:08 +0200, Patrick Lauer wrote: On 06/29/11 03:07, Olivier Crête wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. We tolerate the systemd madness as long as it doesn't interfere with other things. But as OpenRC has some rare features (being able to start and stop stuff and being reasonably fast among them) and there's no replacement at the moment I see no reason to add a convoluted mess of insanity just to feel good. I think you're missing how systemd is above and beyond OpenRC (and all other init systems). It has stuff like using cgroups to guarantee that all the processes associated with a service have stopped (openrc doesn't do that), I've started playing around with it. Pretty tiny feature, I expect it to end up as 200 lines of shell. Once I finish that openrc will support it too, but without the Lennartizing that makes people so very joyful happy. it provides very fast boot (openrc doesn't do that), Hmm, the comparisons I've seen are very mixed, with the performance difference between 0 and 50% in favour of OpenRC. I haven't seen anything catch OpenRC yet, but at least there's now an equivalent for rc-status ... it can activate services on demand (openrc doesn't do that), etc.. What's the usecase for that? Sounds more like an antifeature (either it's started or not, determinism rocks), and then there's things like xinetd that tend to get deprecated and rediscovered every 5 years ... What systemd can't do is run more than one command for a service, so ... hmm ... that's a rather funny riddle. And it hides things behind an opaque layer, so as soon as you need to edit internals (which I tend to do about 2-3 times a year with OpenRC) you're going to have to stab around in bad C instead of changing a simple shell script. But - having seen the horrors that others do in shell I *understand* why some people still think that shell-free startup is a good idea. It's not. Leg-free humans are a good way to avoid broken toes ... And you also underestimate the amount of momentum that Lennart has managed to amass behind systemd. I expect that much sooner than you think, we won't have a choice but to switch to systemd as many core components will start depending on it. You underestimate the amount of positive feelings that Lennart has managed to create. Also for almost everyone else it adds functionality, but we've had that for a long time. I mean, Upstart is still unable to reliably start, stop or restart services. So migrating to systemd is good. OpenRC has been doing that since the beginning, so we don't gain anything. We just lose our flexible human-readable init scripts for no gain at all - hey, why doesn't that sound like a bonus to me? And you can bet that if anyone is so, how to say this politely, retarded to think that depending on systemd is a good idea will discover that people will patch around the stupid very fast. Plus there's some of us that will never be able to use systemd because it has artificial limitations in the kernels it supports. That's not a good idea. As much as I like your optimism, it's pretty much misguided and trying to make my life more difficult. I hope you don't mind if I try to stop you from creating work for me :) -- Patrick Lauer http://service.gentooexperimental.org Gentoo Council Member and Evangelist Part of Gentoo Benchmarks, Forensics, PostgreSQL, KDE herds
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:31:43 +0200, Patrick Lauer wrote: On 06/29/11 17:14, Olivier Crête wrote: Stop polluting the thread with $init vs $init2, please. -Jeremy
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:14:22 -0400 Olivier Crête tes...@gentoo.org wrote: And you also underestimate the amount of momentum that Lennart has managed to amass behind systemd. I expect that much sooner than you think, we won't have a choice but to switch to systemd as many core components will start depending on it. Ah, are we talking about the GNOME Operating System here? If so, I'd rather see Gentoo drop Gnome than force everyone to switch to using DistributionKit... -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 03:38, Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Mike Frysinger wrote: /etc/init.d/functions.sh has existed for the last decade, and was long ago decided as the canonical public entry point for scripts external to baselayout (as opposed to a path in /sbin/). the file should provide the classic e* output funcs that we've all grown to love, and are now enshrined in PMS. it has had other functions come and go over the years, but i think things have settled on just the output helpers. was there anything other than the output helpers you were interested in ? eselect also uses other functions from it, like rc_runlevel(). yes, but in this case, eselect is closely bound to what version (baselayout-1 vs openrc vs ...) is installed so that it can manage the init.d scripts and runlevels. as soon as the init code changes drastically, then the eselect module does as well. i think this is a different beast than what most every other external script is using it for. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 06:05, Michał Górny wrote: I'm not sure if it is a good idea to source a script mangling PATH there. the mangling makes sure the system paths are present and come first. it doesnt remove any elements. it probably could be redone to only prepend elements, but i'm not sure the resulting behavior would be quite right when talking about / vs /usr vs /usr/local. also, the preference seen here is the same as provided by /etc/profile. to be sure, PATH handling in the script is ancillary to the general topic at hand. -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 12:56:32PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:57, William Hubbs wrote: The third option is for openrc to not install the symbolic link at /etc/init.d/functions.sh since the code is actually at /lib/rc/functions.sh or /libexec/rc/functions.sh on the bsds. If I do that in openrc, that would mean that baselayout or another package would have to provide either a symbolic link in /etc/init.d/functions.sh or a script there that provided the functions if openrc was not available. this sounds bad on multiple levels Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Thoughts? William pgpa6lm6LlVwb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:14:22 -0400 Olivier Crête tes...@gentoo.org wrote: And you also underestimate the amount of momentum that Lennart has managed to amass behind systemd. I expect that much sooner than you think, we won't have a choice but to switch to systemd as many core components will start depending on it. Ah, are we talking about the GNOME Operating System here? If so, I'd rather see Gentoo drop Gnome than force everyone to switch to using DistributionKit... Yes, I agree. We should be like Slackware which dropped GNOME in 2005. What an excellent decision they made and it helped them retain so many users too... -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
2011/6/29 Olivier Crête tes...@gentoo.org: systemd is where the innovation is today and we, Gentoo, should get on board or be left behind. Certainly agree that systemd is innovative. I think this whole thing is becoming a bit moot. The openrc maintainer is already planning to add use flags to allow for clean comingling of the two init systems. Why don't we let everybody play around with and generally improve both, and then let the market sort it out as it were? I'd rather read planet.g.o articles about neat things being done with either systemd or openrc than a lot of bickering about which one is better on a mailing list. Give the users a choice, and then the distro can go with whatever proves to be stronger. As has long been a tradition in Gentoo we can also help to improve both upstream experiences while we're at it. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 12:56:32PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:57, William Hubbs wrote: The third option is for openrc to not install the symbolic link at /etc/init.d/functions.sh since the code is actually at /lib/rc/functions.sh or /libexec/rc/functions.sh on the bsds. If I do that in openrc, that would mean that baselayout or another package would have to provide either a symbolic link in /etc/init.d/functions.sh or a script there that provided the functions if openrc was not available. this sounds bad on multiple levels Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Thoughts? Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 22:19:09 Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:46:13 -0500 William Hubbs wrote: Ok, the option that I'm looking at now is to set up openrc so that the init scripts are optional and whether or not they are installed is controlled by a use flag which I will default to on in IUSE. Most people would leave this flag alone, but if you want to use something like systemd and do not want the init scripts or the /etc/runlevels directory on your system, you would just re-emerge openrc with this flag disabled. For now this flag will just control init scripts installation, but I will also look into taking it further and not installing other parts of openrc, such as binaries, man pages, etc which are only used if you are working on init scripts. Wouldn't it be better to just leave these people with INSTALL_MASK? USEflag means needless rebuilds just for the benefit of one file. so you're saying the solution for systemd users is to setup INSTALL_MASK and we shouldnt worry about tweaking openrc at all ? -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
All, the reason for this email is http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373219 and the bugs that currently depend on it. I'm sure there will be more of those. The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. William pgp8kHkUnVT18.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. -- Olivier Crête tes...@gentoo.org Gentoo Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
Hi, On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 09:07:12PM -0400, Olivier Crête wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 17:10 -0500, William Hubbs wrote: The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. As long as we have Gentoo-style init scripts in the tree, we will need these functions to be available. So yes, they should probably be in a separate package from openrc itself to ease the transition to the bright systemd future. I'm not advocating killing openrc; I think that the sysvinit/openrc system we have is going to be our default init system for some time It isn't init scripts that I'm worried about. The problem is that scripts other than init scripts are using the code in /etc/init.d/functions.sh, so some how that code, or something similar to it needs to be available on systems so that someone, like yourself, who is not using openrc, can run emerge --unmerge sysvinit openrc and have a working system. Right now, things like revdep-rebuild and eix will break if you remove openrc. For the short term I can see it as a subset of openrc, but ultimately I think if you aren't using openrc's init system it should not be required on your system. Any other thoughts? William pgp2KCLgV0LMi.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:10:42 -0500 William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: the reason for this email is http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373219 and the bugs that currently depend on it. I'm sure there will be more of those. The background is that /etc/init.d/functions.sh is a link to /lib/rc/functions.sh, which is part of openrc. Other init systems, like systemd, are coming along which completely replace sysvinit and do not use openrc's init scripts at all. However, since things other than init scripts are using /etc/init.d/functions.sh, all gentoo users are forced to have openrc on their systems whether they use its init scripts or not. As you can see in the bug, I am working on creating a minimalist version of openrc that can be installed to allow users to have access to the functions that are in functions.sh regardless of whether or not they are using openrc's init system. I'm not convinced that this is the best approach, so any input would be greatly appreciated. Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. Say, if OpenRC decided to switch into some kind of internal output flow, einfo and friends would stop working for all those external scripts. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo Say, if OpenRC decided to switch into some kind of internal output flow, einfo and friends would stop working for all those external scripts. this idea is pure ridiculousness -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: should openrc be mandatory on all gentoo systems?
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Mike Frysinger vap...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wednesday, June 29, 2011 00:04:57 Michał Górny wrote: Honestly, I think a better solution would be to provide a convenience function library, independent of OpenRC. Sourcing random internal scripts of a random package is just broken by concept. except it hasnt been random and has clearly been defined by having existed since the beginning of Gentoo I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
