Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Feb 3, 2004, at 9:55 PM, TriKster Abacus wrote: That is pretty damn funny.. MacOS X! Talk about insert foot into mouth! mac os x supports alpha blending. i use translucent terminals quite often. You can set transparency using Eterm, aterm.. and probably a lot more too.. (I only use Eterm) unless eterm has changed dramatically in 0.9.2 i doubt it has the kind of transparency he's talking about. however, i believe there are certain engines for kde and possibly also gnome that support real (fake) transparency. though i'm afraid the kind of transparency that os x does is beyond what xfree can currently render. there was a fellow who wrote an opengl hardware layer hack to xfree... google for 'transluxent' if you're interested. j. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Feb 4, 2004, at 4:34 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw some of gentoo screenshots! I haven't used Linux on the desktop in a while, but I thought it was possible, too. and what do you mean of MacOS X? MacOS X theme of X windows or real MacOS X? even we can use transparency feature in MS windows... I think Norro is kidding you on... Mac OS X's windows manager is years ahead of other o/s in terms of eye-candy, and supports transparency in a way others do not. I think that on Linux Windows any transparent window has to fake it - I believe it does this by looking at what should be behind itself, and mixing the transparency itself to paint as it's own background. On Mac OS X the transparency is handled by the o/s, and is hence a lot more efficient. Mac OS X also supports arbitrary transformations upon windows which may not sound very exciting until you actually see what it means. Check out: http://compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org/Mac/Genie1.jpg http://compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org/Mac/Genie2.jpg http://compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org/Mac/Genie3.jpg http://compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org/Mac/Genie4.jpg Notice the way that the video *keeps playing* whilst the window is minimised (you can see that Billy is looking downwards in the first screenshot towards the camera in the 2nd one). Stroller. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:50:10 + Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I think Norro is kidding you on... Mac OS X's windows manager is years | ahead of other o/s in terms of eye-candy, and supports transparency in | a way others do not. I think that on Linux Windows any transparent | window has to fake it - I believe it does this by looking at what | should be behind itself, and mixing the transparency itself to paint | as it's own background. On Mac OS X the transparency is handled by the | o/s, and is hence a lot more efficient. Uh, you mean like how fdo Xserver gives true translucency on linux with the XCOMPOSITE stuff? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail:ciaranm at gentoo.org Web: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, I want to use a transparent terminal. I tried gnome terminal and eterm (Eterm -O). They support transparency feature but not actually transparent! I couldn't see the background and can just see the background picture of terminal or background of transparent tone colors. Is there any actually transparent terminal??? How can I use that? I saw many guys using that... Fresco[1] window system provides the alpha transparency, but it's still under heavy devolopment. However it's in portage. [1] http://fresco.org -- Regards, Nickolay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I want to use a transparent terminal. I tried gnome terminal and eterm (Eterm -O). They support transparency feature but not actually transparent! I couldn't see the background and can just see the background picture of terminal or background of transparent tone colors. It seems the kde and gnome terminals only support blending in the background image (of the terminal or desktop). I haven't seen or heard of a really transparent terminal so far. Is there any actually transparent terminal??? How can I use that? I saw many guys using that... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Arne Vogel wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I want to use a transparent terminal. I tried gnome terminal and eterm (Eterm -O). They support transparency feature but not actually transparent! I couldn't see the background and can just see the background picture of terminal or background of transparent tone colors. It seems the kde and gnome terminals only support blending in the background image (of the terminal or desktop). I haven't seen or heard of a really transparent terminal so far. Is there any actually transparent terminal??? How can I use that? I saw many guys using that... i m using Eterm and aterm, both can be transparent... (tested with: blackbox, fluxbox and KDE 3.x) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- = Fraunhofer Institut Sichere Telekooperation (SIT) Infrastructure Management (ITM) Richard Sammet [e-axe] Tel.: +49 6151 869 60027 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Feb 4, 2004, at 11:03 am, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:50:10 + Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I think Norro is kidding you on... Mac OS X's windows manager is years | ahead of other o/s in terms of eye-candy, and supports transparency in | a way others do not. I think that on Linux Windows any transparent | window has to fake it - I believe it does this by looking at what | should be behind itself, and mixing the transparency itself to paint | as it's own background. On Mac OS X the transparency is handled by the | o/s, and is hence a lot more efficient. Uh, you mean like how fdo Xserver gives true translucency on linux with the XCOMPOSITE stuff? Uh, I have no idea. I don't use X-windows. Please note I said I think and I believe. If my understanding is flawed I'd be delighted if you could post some references to simple explanations. Stroller. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:52:51 + Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uh, you mean like how fdo Xserver gives true translucency on linux | with the XCOMPOSITE stuff? | | Uh, I have no idea. I don't use X-windows. | | Please note I said I think and I believe. If my understanding is | flawed I'd be delighted if you could post some references to simple | explanations. fdo Xserver is an alternative to xfree that can do real transparency. Screenie: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm/screenshots/raindrop-2003-11-17b.png Ebuilds: http://dev.gentoo.org/~spyderous/overlay-freedesktop/ Linkage: http://freedesktop.org/Software/xserver Right now it's pretty unstable and doesn't really work with nvidia cards. But it's chock full of eye candy if you don't mind the occasional segfault :) -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail:ciaranm at gentoo.org Web: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
i m using Eterm and aterm, both can be transparent... (tested with: blackbox, fluxbox and KDE 3.x) There seems to be a confusion: Most modern terminal programs (aterm, Eterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, etc.) plus some others (Kopete, gdesklets, etc.) implement pseudo-transparency. This is achieved by the program grabbing the chunk of background underneath its window, and redisplaying it as its own background. The effect is that of a transparent (or translucent) window, but it is not really transparent: if your transparent window is on top of some other window, it will still show the background image, and not the window underneath. Real transparency, or alpha blending, is a more profound feature that makes it possible to have any object have transparency. Because it's implemented by the graphics or window engine (e.g. X11, or Quartz in MacOS X), it allows any application to have transparency, and it is true transparency: if you place a transparent window over another window, the back window shows through the transparent one, even as it updates. Real transparency does not exist in standard X11. Some other systems, as the aforementioned Fresco, implement it, but are not very stable yet. See number 2 in http://wiki.fresco.org/FrescoVsX. I understood the original poster was asking about true transparency, and the answer is you can't, not in standard XFree86. What you have seen in the screenshots are pseudo-transparent terminals (which work mostly OK most of the time, and look nice). --Diego -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Uh, I have no idea. I don't use X-windows. Please note I said I think and I believe. If my understanding is flawed I'd be delighted if you could post some references to simple explanations. Only issue I had with what you said (since I don't use Macs) was your comment that the transparency was handled by the O/S. I have a fairly limited definition of O/S when it comes to issues like this. It's either kernel space or user space. You are still talking about an application that lives in user space -- it's just handled outside of the individual application. Windows XP also supports the alpha blending that you are referring to. I have run Trillian in transparent mode. I find it somewhat less than useful for most things because then my eyes have more to look at. Certainly it's a powerful tool for graphics applications but not so terrific for most user apps. Ric -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Diego Zamboni wrote: i m using Eterm and aterm, both can be transparent... (tested with: blackbox, fluxbox and KDE 3.x) There seems to be a confusion: Most modern terminal programs (aterm, Eterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, etc.) plus some others (Kopete, gdesklets, etc.) implement pseudo-transparency. This is achieved by the program grabbing the chunk of background underneath its window, and redisplaying it as its own background. The effect is that of a transparent (or translucent) window, but it is not really transparent: if your transparent window is on top of some other window, it will still show the background image, and not the window underneath. Right, I just emerged Eterm, and it only supports the background image pseudo-transparency. Nice feature anyway, but not true alpha blending. It's also not updated immediately, so the image hops when moving the window. As for Fresco, you said it's not stable yet? For the moment I'll rather stick with a stable XFree86 4.3.0 than sacrifice stability for some rather superfluous special FX. Would be good for bragging to one's (Windoze-using) friends, though! ;-) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Arne Vogel wrote: | Diego Zamboni wrote: | | i m using Eterm and aterm, both can be transparent... (tested with: | blackbox, fluxbox and KDE 3.x) | | | | There seems to be a confusion: | | Most modern terminal programs (aterm, Eterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, | etc.) plus some others (Kopete, gdesklets, etc.) implement | pseudo-transparency. This is achieved by the program grabbing the | chunk of background underneath its window, and redisplaying it as its | own background. The effect is that of a transparent (or translucent) | window, but it is not really transparent: if your transparent window | is on top of some other window, it will still show the background image, | and not the window underneath. | | | Right, I just emerged Eterm, and it only supports the background image | pseudo-transparency. | Nice feature anyway, but not true alpha blending. It's also not updated | immediately, so the image | hops when moving the window. | | As for Fresco, you said it's not stable yet? For the moment I'll rather | stick with a stable | XFree86 4.3.0 than sacrifice stability for some rather superfluous | special FX. Would be good for | bragging to one's (Windoze-using) friends, though! ;-) A few points here... XFree86 does NOT support true transparency YET. This is a limitation of X not window managers or terminals. A workaround is to use faked transparencies. gnome-terminal, aterm, Eterm, and others support these faked transparencies. All they do is allow your background (wallpaper) to show through. It is really cool, I use it myself, but however if you have a transparent terminal on top of an application you cannot see the application behind it, only the background shows through. Mac OS X and Windows XP do support true transparency. If this makes you jealous, mad, sad, etc. YOU can do something about it. XFree86 is OPEN SOURCE. If you don't like it, you can HELP fix it. That is why Linux is better than the rest in the first place. We don't have to wait for some big corporation to implement a cool feature, we can do it ourselves. Good Luck, Lonnie -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFAIRpAV/MhEP5B7SYRAvltAJ43xUj7wU3q3ZScyUzkNqp3J08erwCgutps A81d1s0nMpOt2dm0ftgXcZM= =V1Zo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On February 4, 2004 11:13 am, Lonnie Olson wrote: Mac OS X and Windows XP do support true transparency. If this makes you jealous, mad, sad, etc. YOU can do something about it. XFree86 is OPEN SOURCE. If you don't like it, you can HELP fix it. That is why Linux is better than the rest in the first place. We don't have to wait for some big corporation to implement a cool feature, we can do it ourselves. what's xfree written in? i only ask 'cause i'd like to help on the project but only know a few web languages (perl/php etc.) is it c? or c++? how experienced does someone need to be to actually help xfree support true transparencies? -- often it does seem a pity that noah and his party did not miss the boat. - mark twain -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
XFree is written in C. It's a large beast. I think Keith Packard's X Serve has true transparency: http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ Look at it at: http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/xserver I seem to recall that ebuilds exists for this project. However, doesn't work with the NVidia binary drivers :( Canek On Wed, 2004-02-04 at 12:55, gabriel wrote: On February 4, 2004 11:13 am, Lonnie Olson wrote: Mac OS X and Windows XP do support true transparency. If this makes you jealous, mad, sad, etc. YOU can do something about it. XFree86 is OPEN SOURCE. If you don't like it, you can HELP fix it. That is why Linux is better than the rest in the first place. We don't have to wait for some big corporation to implement a cool feature, we can do it ourselves. what's xfree written in? i only ask 'cause i'd like to help on the project but only know a few web languages (perl/php etc.) is it c? or c++? how experienced does someone need to be to actually help xfree support true transparencies? -- Boy, life takes a long time to live. -- Steven Wright signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
begin quote On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:55:50 -0500 gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On February 4, 2004 11:13 am, Lonnie Olson wrote: Mac OS X and Windows XP do support true transparency. If this makes you jealous, mad, sad, etc. YOU can do something about it. XFree86 is OPEN SOURCE. If you don't like it, you can HELP fix it. That is why Linux is better than the rest in the first place. We don't have to wait for some big corporation to implement a cool feature, we can do it ourselves. what's xfree written in? i only ask 'cause i'd like to help on the project but only know a few web languages (perl/php etc.) is it c? or c++? how experienced does someone need to be to actually help xfree support true transparencies? The official XFree86 development is hell to get involved with, which is mainly why Keith Packard forked and is now doing work at the freedesktop.org (where you can commit quite easily as I understood it.) http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ http://xserver.freedesktop.org/ //Spider -- begin .signature This is a .signature virus! Please copy me into your .signature! See Microsoft KB Article Q265230 for more information. end pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Feb 4, 2004, at 5:40 pm, Ric Messier wrote: Uh, I have no idea. I don't use X-windows. Please note I said I think and I believe. If my understanding is flawed I'd be delighted if you could post some references to simple explanations. Only issue I had with what you said (since I don't use Macs) was your comment that the transparency was handled by the O/S. I have a fairly limited definition of O/S when it comes to issues like this. It's either kernel space or user space. You are still talking about an application that lives in user space -- it's just handled outside of the individual application. Fair enough call, I see that I said: On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:50 am, Stroller wrote: ...On Mac OS X the transparency is handled by the o/s, and is hence a lot more efficient. But I also said: On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:50 am, Stroller wrote: ... Mac OS X's windows manager is years ahead of other o/s in terms of eye-candy, and supports transparency in a way others do not. So I do know the difference, honest! Actually I think a lot of the Quartz stuff is hardware accelerated on later Macs, but I have no idea how that works WRT kernel user-space. ...I have run Trillian in transparent mode. I find it somewhat less than useful for most things because then my eyes have more to look at. Certainly it's a powerful tool for graphics applications but not so terrific for most user apps. Yeah, I agree. One of the first things I did after I installed iTerm was turn the default transparency off, and I haven't tried it with anything else, because I was quite uncomfortable with it. The transparency on icons in the dock is rather sweet, but I haven't seen any applications of it that I've found really useful. I do like the screenshots of the clock at the link Claran posted (http://freedesktop.org/Software/xserver), however. That's really quite lovely. Arbitrary transformations OTOH, *is* really useful, now that Apple have developed the Exposé concept. It may seem like simple blatant eye-candy, but when you use it you really start to appreciate it. Stroller. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
On Feb 4, 2004, at 5:06 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:52:51 + Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uh, you mean like how fdo Xserver gives true translucency on linux | with the XCOMPOSITE stuff? | | Uh, I have no idea. I don't use X-windows. | | Please note I said I think and I believe. If my understanding is | flawed I'd be delighted if you could post some references to simple | explanations. fdo Xserver is an alternative to xfree that can do real transparency. Screenie: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm/screenshots/raindrop-2003-11-17b.png Ebuilds: http://dev.gentoo.org/~spyderous/overlay-freedesktop/ Linkage: http://freedesktop.org/Software/xserver Right now it's pretty unstable and doesn't really work with nvidia cards. But it's chock full of eye candy if you don't mind the occasional segfault :) Cool. I look forward to replacing the USE=X flag with USE=fdoX. ;-] Stroller. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: I seem to recall that ebuilds exists for this project. However, doesn't work with the NVidia binary drivers :( Yes, but does he have a useable NVidia driver like XFree? Ric -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Thank you for good answers :) really helpful... I am waiting for the real transparent stuff of (the next) X... now psedo-transparent terminal is workin' just FINE!!! thanks, guys i m using Eterm and aterm, both can be transparent... (tested with: blackbox, fluxbox and KDE 3.x) There seems to be a confusion: Most modern terminal programs (aterm, Eterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, etc.) plus some others (Kopete, gdesklets, etc.) implement pseudo-transparency. This is achieved by the program grabbing the chunk of background underneath its window, and redisplaying it as its own background. The effect is that of a transparent (or translucent) window, but it is not really transparent: if your transparent window is on top of some other window, it will still show the background image, and not the window underneath. Real transparency, or alpha blending, is a more profound feature that makes it possible to have any object have transparency. Because it's implemented by the graphics or window engine (e.g. X11, or Quartz in MacOS X), it allows any application to have transparency, and it is true transparency: if you place a transparent window over another window, the back window shows through the transparent one, even as it updates. Real transparency does not exist in standard X11. Some other systems, as the aforementioned Fresco, implement it, but are not very stable yet. See number 2 in http://wiki.fresco.org/FrescoVsX. I understood the original poster was asking about true transparency, and the answer is you can't, not in standard XFree86. What you have seen in the screenshots are pseudo-transparent terminals (which work mostly OK most of the time, and look nice). --Diego -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Hi, I want to use a transparent terminal. I tried gnome terminal and eterm (Eterm -O). They support transparency feature but not actually transparent! I couldn't see the background and can just see the background picture of terminal or background of transparent tone colors. Is there any actually transparent terminal??? How can I use that? I saw many guys using that... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any actually transparent terminal??? nope I saw many guys using that... really!!??? Perhaps they're using MacOS X. Regards, Norberto -- Linux 2.6.2-rc3-mm1 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 02:06:05 up 13:31, 2 users, load average: 4.34, 4.08, 3.87 pgp0.pgp Description: signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
Huh... I saw some of gentoo screenshots! and what do you mean of MacOS X? MacOS X theme of X windows or real MacOS X? even we can use transparency feature in MS windows... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any actually transparent terminal??? nope I saw many guys using that... really!!??? Perhaps they're using MacOS X. Regards, Norberto -- Linux 2.6.2-rc3-mm1 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 02:06:05 up 13:31, 2 users, load average: 4.34, 4.08, 3.87 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Using transparent terminal...
That is pretty damn funny.. MacOS X! Talk about insert foot into mouth! You can set transparency using Eterm, aterm.. and probably a lot more too.. (I only use Eterm) anyhow a simple transparency + [add your term here] will give you plenty of results. Enjoy Sincerely, -- TriKster Abacus irc.freenode.net #cllug #gentoo #linuxfriends irc.cotse.com #linux http://www.cllug.org http://www.trikster.homelinux.org http://www.trikster.homelinux.org/contact.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
