Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:29:38 -0700 kashani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hours Comcast was down last year: 140 (random outages) Clearly cable is pretty inconsistant; that having been said, mine hasn't ever gone out in the two years I've had it. Of course, I provided my own motorola cable modem. That might have a little to do with it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:00:37 -0700 Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That sounds awesome from a DIY perspective, but this server provides > 100% of my income and I feel like it should be hosted. Maybe I'm > wrong. Does anyone else house a money-critical server in their home? > > - Grant No, I wouldn't recommend this for production servers. I plan to do it soon, when I have 2 static IPs to assign to nameservers, but I don't think it's a particularly good idea unless you're in to that kind of thing. I agree with you, Grant. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:30:37 Grant wrote: > > > > So don't think that it's really expensive to have a do-it-yourself > > solution in your garage or something, at least not too quickly. > > That sounds awesome from a DIY perspective, but this server provides > 100% of my income and I feel like it should be hosted. Maybe I'm > wrong. Does anyone else house a money-critical server in their home? > > - Grant I love my home web server - its a great playground for me and the ~15 other people out there who access it. My business server is hosted. There is just no way I can provide the bandwidth or reliability the business demands in a home environment. ISP maintenance outages occur 2-3 times a year, and although I might not care if I can't access the web between 2 and 4am one wednesday night, clients and visitors from the US or Europe would have a legitimate problem. Unless you can put in the infrastructure to guarantee 99.99% uptime in your home (redundant internet connections from different providers, backup power generator, climate controlled room, backup systems that work when you go on holiday for a month, etc) you are taking a big risk with your livelihood going DIY. I've had the occasional issue with my host, but overall it is a very acceptable level of business risk and well worth the money. - Noven -- >-- Novensiles divi Flamen --< > Miles Militis Fons < -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
Grant wrote: That sounds awesome from a DIY perspective, but this server provides 100% of my income and I feel like it should be hosted. Maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone else house a money-critical server in their home? Hours Comcast was down last year: 140 (random outages) Hours my VPS was down last year: .5 (planned hardware upgrade) Available peak bandwidth outbound on Cable: 768 kb/s Available peak bandwidth outbound on VPS: > 100 Mb/s Cable statis IP on black lists: yes VPS Statis IP's on black lists: no Total outbound traffic possible on 768 kb/s cable in a month: 250 GB Total outbound traffic with my VPS plan: 2TB If you're hosting your own blog or other nonsense do it at home. If you're making money off your site or have reasons for it not to be down, don't host it at home. kashani -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > I have a dedicated server now and I'll never use a shared system > > again. I think the problem would be the internet connection. I've > > heard that most ISPs block port 80 so you can't run a webserver from a > > "home" connection. I think business connections are expensive. I'm > > only paying $75/month now. > > > > - Grant > > $75/month is more than it costs to get a business-level cable or > DSL line w/ a static ip in my area. The dsl guys couldn't guarantee > speeds better than 256k both ways, but Comcast was happy to sell me > loads of bandwith. Their package was around that for the 8mb down / > 768kb up , + a static IP. The only catch was the hefty > two hundred fifty dollar installation fee that was waived only with a 2 > year commitment. > > FWIW, many isp's also _don't_ block port 80. In fact, the DHCP ips of > both my friends on DSL and myself seem entirely open. One friend of > mine has configured his router with hosts.deny, and therefore he has no > true firewall; I can even get through on the finger port, telnet, smtp, > ssh -- everything. > > On my home server (comcast cable), I am > very happy to say that not only are all the ports open, but my > connection is actually pretty good for my very low traffic needs. > ( spore.ath.cx is being hosted from my linen closet; see the speed > yourself). If you want me to run a port map on your ip address, feel > free to send me your IP address. > > So don't think that it's really expensive to have a do-it-yourself > solution in your garage or something, at least not too quickly. That sounds awesome from a DIY perspective, but this server provides 100% of my income and I feel like it should be hosted. Maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone else house a money-critical server in their home? - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:54:36 -0700 Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a dedicated server now and I'll never use a shared system > again. I think the problem would be the internet connection. I've > heard that most ISPs block port 80 so you can't run a webserver from a > "home" connection. I think business connections are expensive. I'm > only paying $75/month now. > > - Grant $75/month is more than it costs to get a business-level cable or DSL line w/ a static ip in my area. The dsl guys couldn't guarantee speeds better than 256k both ways, but Comcast was happy to sell me loads of bandwith. Their package was around that for the 8mb down / 768kb up , + a static IP. The only catch was the hefty two hundred fifty dollar installation fee that was waived only with a 2 year commitment. FWIW, many isp's also _don't_ block port 80. In fact, the DHCP ips of both my friends on DSL and myself seem entirely open. One friend of mine has configured his router with hosts.deny, and therefore he has no true firewall; I can even get through on the finger port, telnet, smtp, ssh -- everything. On my home server (comcast cable), I am very happy to say that not only are all the ports open, but my connection is actually pretty good for my very low traffic needs. ( spore.ath.cx is being hosted from my linen closet; see the speed yourself). If you want me to run a port map on your ip address, feel free to send me your IP address. So don't think that it's really expensive to have a do-it-yourself solution in your garage or something, at least not too quickly. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > > Customer service in the Internet age :( > > > > > > I would find a new host, but that's just me. > > > > Any recommendations? > > Couldn't you host your own server in the loft or the garage, using an old box > for the job? A car battery + inverter for UPS (all second hand of course) > should see you good for not much more than the cheapest of most ISP packages > per year. The catch here is that access speed may not be as good as the more > centralised fiber optic data centers with their load sharing, 8 CPU monsters, > but as I assume that you are not running amazon or google you should be > OK. ;-) > > It may be worth checking with your domestic DSL/cable ISP that they do not > throttle traffic and that they allow you to run a server in their T&Cs. I have a dedicated server now and I'll never use a shared system again. I think the problem would be the internet connection. I've heard that most ISPs block port 80 so you can't run a webserver from a "home" connection. I think business connections are expensive. I'm only paying $75/month now. - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Grant wrote: > > > So much for that. [snip...] > > Customer service in the Internet age :( > > > > I would find a new host, but that's just me. > > Any recommendations? Couldn't you host your own server in the loft or the garage, using an old box for the job? A car battery + inverter for UPS (all second hand of course) should see you good for not much more than the cheapest of most ISP packages per year. The catch here is that access speed may not be as good as the more centralised fiber optic data centers with their load sharing, 8 CPU monsters, but as I assume that you are not running amazon or google you should be OK. ;-) It may be worth checking with your domestic DSL/cable ISP that they do not throttle traffic and that they allow you to run a server in their T&Cs. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > So much for that. > > > > "I understand sir. Unfortunately I'm about out of rope in this > > situation. The only > > thing I can really provide to you at this point, is the oppertunity to > > flag this for > > the management team, and allow them to speak with you directly. > > > > I'll move forward and make sure this gets marked correctly for them. > > > > Please understand that as they work M-F 9 AM - 5 PM CST, it could > > be some time > > before you are able to get a response from them. Your patience and > > cooperation is > > greatly appreciated." > Customer service in the Internet age :( > > I would find a new host, but that's just me. Any recommendations? - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Sep 24, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Grant wrote: So much for that. "I understand sir. Unfortunately I'm about out of rope in this situation. The only thing I can really provide to you at this point, is the oppertunity to flag this for the management team, and allow them to speak with you directly. I'll move forward and make sure this gets marked correctly for them. Please understand that as they work M-F 9 AM - 5 PM CST, it could be some time before you are able to get a response from them. Your patience and cooperation is greatly appreciated." Customer service in the Internet age :( I would find a new host, but that's just me. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too > > > > much? > > > > > > > > - Grant > > > > > > Would it be unreasonable to tell us who this host is? I want to make > > > sure I don't host any sites on their system; if they can't secure their > > > work tickets, what makes anybody think they can secure anything else? > > > > I'm taking a guess it's these guys: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/19/layered_technologies_breach_disclosure/ > > > > - Noven > > Bingo. They sent me another message with an offer that could be what > I asked for. It was vague. So much for that. "I understand sir. Unfortunately I'm about out of rope in this situation. The only thing I can really provide to you at this point, is the oppertunity to flag this for the management team, and allow them to speak with you directly. I'll move forward and make sure this gets marked correctly for them. Please understand that as they work M-F 9 AM - 5 PM CST, it could be some time before you are able to get a response from them. Your patience and cooperation is greatly appreciated." - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too > > > much? > > > > > > - Grant > > > > Would it be unreasonable to tell us who this host is? I want to make > > sure I don't host any sites on their system; if they can't secure their > > work tickets, what makes anybody think they can secure anything else? > > I'm taking a guess it's these guys: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/19/layered_technologies_breach_disclosure/ > > - Noven Bingo. They sent me another message with an offer that could be what I asked for. It was vague. I replied and lookie here: - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors - "|/usr/local/sbin/cerberus /usr/local/etc/config.xml FATAL /var/log/cerberus.log" I guess that means they're working on the system. I'll try to send again. - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 02:24:04 Dan Farrell wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:37:23 -0700 > > Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too > > much? > > > > - Grant > > Would it be unreasonable to tell us who this host is? I want to make > sure I don't host any sites on their system; if they can't secure their > work tickets, what makes anybody think they can secure anything else? I'm taking a guess it's these guys: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/19/layered_technologies_breach_disclosure/ - Noven -- >-- Novensiles divi Flamen --< > Miles Militis Fons < -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
You probably were not asking _too_ much. If you are dependent upon the system for your livelihood, I'd find somewhere else to host, since these folks sound like bozos. IANAL, but if you have a contract with them there may be service level agreements that they're obligated to uphold, and they might not be upholding them. --- dcw On Sep 22, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Dan Farrell wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:37:23 -0700 Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello, As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then decided I needed to reinstall my system. I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn the old system over to them and continue with the new system. My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? - Grant Would it be unreasonable to tell us who this host is? I want to make sure I don't host any sites on their system; if they can't secure their work tickets, what makes anybody think they can secure anything else? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:37:23 -0700 Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too > much? > > - Grant Would it be unreasonable to tell us who this host is? I want to make sure I don't host any sites on their system; if they can't secure their work tickets, what makes anybody think they can secure anything else? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:31:03 -0500 Dale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That your Dad is a lawyer may be worth mentioning to them. Just don't > tell them it is NOT his area of practice. May help get that #1 deal. > > Dale > > :-) :-) Just be careful. Implying legal action could cause you a whole heap of trouble, since I assume you depend on their server for your livelihood. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
Grant wrote: >>> As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days >>> ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had >>> been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root >>> password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then >>> decided I needed to reinstall my system. >>> >>> I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 >>> days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn >>> the old system over to them and continue with the new system. >>> >>> My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? >>> >>> >> Information that was valuable leaked because they screw it, so, no >> matter what terms of service say, they must fix their own mistakes. If >> the machine crashes, the data center is burned down to the ground or >> the manager's kid pull the plug on the main server, that's a situation >> where they can say "not our fault, deal with it". But in your case >> their support system had a breach, and thus its their fault. They must >> provide you the means to ensure that YOUR information is safe, cause >> they caused the incident in the first place. You're unsure about your >> information, and information is money. >> >> If I were you I would be backing up my data by now, would then request >> a physical backup and after I get it: >> >> 1) Send them email about the actions I'm about to take. >> 2) Move away from their services and look for a better server. >> 3) Write a cool blog entry about their services and how secure they are. >> >> Of course they could answer the (1) email granting your requests and >> maybe you wouldn't have to take steps (2) and (3). Happened to me >> once. >> > > I couldn't agree more. It feels like I should have a legal recourse > in this situation. My Dad is a lawyer but has no knowledge of > technical matters. > > - Grant > That your Dad is a lawyer may be worth mentioning to them. Just don't tell them it is NOT his area of practice. May help get that #1 deal. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:06:40 Grant wrote: > > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? > > > > > > - Grant > > > > You are probably asking more than their terms of service *require* them > > to provide, especially if they don't believe the leaked information was > > used for any nefarious activity. > > However a reasonable webhost who accepts responsibility for its mistakes > > and values its customers would probably grant such a request as a gesture > > of goodwill - unless they were worried about opening the floodgates for > > every customer to request such treatment, a scenario which would likely > > leave them unable to comply even if they wanted to. > > As a side note, although I agree with all the comments about 'never been > > sure' a system is still clean, did you check whether there was actually > > any root logins to your server not from your IP since the breach? If I > > was in your situation and could confirm that no root logins occurred (via > > ssh, ftp, cpanel, whatever else is running) from other ip's I'd probably > > rest easy just changing my password. > > Wouldn't it be trivial for them to edit the logs though? > Good point, that comes down to how your server is set up. My server logs get sent to a dedicated logging host - primarily to agregate logs from half a dozen domains, with the happy side effect of securing logs from webserver breaches. My final comment was a presumptive leap based on my own setup and is invalidated if your logs are kept on the same host. - Noven -- >-- Novensiles divi Flamen --< > Miles Militis Fons < -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? > > > > Information that was valuable leaked because they screw it, so, no > matter what terms of service say, they must fix their own mistakes. If > the machine crashes, the data center is burned down to the ground or > the manager's kid pull the plug on the main server, that's a situation > where they can say "not our fault, deal with it". But in your case > their support system had a breach, and thus its their fault. They must > provide you the means to ensure that YOUR information is safe, cause > they caused the incident in the first place. You're unsure about your > information, and information is money. > > If I were you I would be backing up my data by now, would then request > a physical backup and after I get it: > > 1) Send them email about the actions I'm about to take. > 2) Move away from their services and look for a better server. > 3) Write a cool blog entry about their services and how secure they are. > > Of course they could answer the (1) email granting your requests and > maybe you wouldn't have to take steps (2) and (3). Happened to me > once. I couldn't agree more. It feels like I should have a legal recourse in this situation. My Dad is a lawyer but has no knowledge of technical matters. - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On 9/21/07, Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? > Information that was valuable leaked because they screw it, so, no matter what terms of service say, they must fix their own mistakes. If the machine crashes, the data center is burned down to the ground or the manager's kid pull the plug on the main server, that's a situation where they can say "not our fault, deal with it". But in your case their support system had a breach, and thus its their fault. They must provide you the means to ensure that YOUR information is safe, cause they caused the incident in the first place. You're unsure about your information, and information is money. If I were you I would be backing up my data by now, would then request a physical backup and after I get it: 1) Send them email about the actions I'm about to take. 2) Move away from their services and look for a better server. 3) Write a cool blog entry about their services and how secure they are. Of course they could answer the (1) email granting your requests and maybe you wouldn't have to take steps (2) and (3). Happened to me once. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
> > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? > > > > - Grant > > You are probably asking more than their terms of service *require* them to > provide, especially if they don't believe the leaked information was used for > any nefarious activity. > However a reasonable webhost who accepts responsibility for its mistakes and > values its customers would probably grant such a request as a gesture of > goodwill - unless they were worried about opening the floodgates for every > customer to request such treatment, a scenario which would likely leave them > unable to comply even if they wanted to. > As a side note, although I agree with all the comments about 'never been sure' > a system is still clean, did you check whether there was actually any root > logins to your server not from your IP since the breach? If I was in your > situation and could confirm that no root logins occurred (via ssh, ftp, > cpanel, whatever else is running) from other ip's I'd probably rest easy just > changing my password. Wouldn't it be trivial for them to edit the logs though? - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 07:07:23 Grant wrote: > Hello, > > As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days > ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had > been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root > password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then > decided I needed to reinstall my system. > > I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 > days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn > the old system over to them and continue with the new system. > > My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? > > - Grant You are probably asking more than their terms of service *require* them to provide, especially if they don't believe the leaked information was used for any nefarious activity. However a reasonable webhost who accepts responsibility for its mistakes and values its customers would probably grant such a request as a gesture of goodwill - unless they were worried about opening the floodgates for every customer to request such treatment, a scenario which would likely leave them unable to comply even if they wanted to. As a side note, although I agree with all the comments about 'never been sure' a system is still clean, did you check whether there was actually any root logins to your server not from your IP since the breach? If I was in your situation and could confirm that no root logins occurred (via ssh, ftp, cpanel, whatever else is running) from other ip's I'd probably rest easy just changing my password. - Noven -- >-- Novensiles divi Flamen --< > Miles Militis Fons < -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] {OT} Opinions on Host's Decision Please
Hello, As I have previously posted about, my host sent me an email a few days ago stating that support tickets for 5,000-6,000 of their clients had been broken into. I checked my records and found that my root password had previously been submitted in a support ticket. I then decided I needed to reinstall my system. I requested that my host allow me access to a second machine for 2-5 days while I switch over to a clean system, after that I would turn the old system over to them and continue with the new system. My request was denied! I'm blown away by this. Was I asking too much? - Grant -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
