Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:32:28 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > > But harmless. The severe delays you noticed were the result of a > > broken modem/router failing to recognise that IPv6 was not available > > and trying to use it anyway. The usual fix for such a problem is a > > firmware update. > > It's more complex than that. How is the IPV6-enabled browser or media It's not the browser, its the resolver, the delays are caused by excessively long DNS lookups. > player supposed to know that my modem doesn't support IPV6 The modem tells it and the resolver falls back to IPv4. The problem occurs when the modem doesn't know that it doesn't support IPv6 (or even what IPv6 is, which is why a firmware update usually fixes it) so the resolver doesn't try IPv4 until the IPv6 request times out. Using 21st Century software with 20th Century hardware is asking for such problems :( -- Neil Bothwick I am McCoy of Bo...Damnit! I'm a doctor, not a collective! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 09:25:18AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote > But harmless. The severe delays you noticed were the result of a > broken modem/router failing to recognise that IPv6 was not available > and trying to use it anyway. The usual fix for such a problem is a > firmware update. It's more complex than that. How is the IPV6-enabled browser or media player supposed to know that my modem doesn't support IPV6 and neither does my ISP and neither do umpteen hops between me and the site I'm trying to connect to? See http://www.ipjforum.org/?p=378 > The technology in web browsers and operating systems involves doing > Domain Name System (DNS) queries for and A resource records and > then attempting to connect to the resulting IPv6 and IPv4 addresses > sequentially. If the IPv6 path is broken (or slow), this connection > can take a long time before it falls back to trying IPv4. This process > is especially painful on typical websites that retrieve objects > from different hosts-each failure incurs a delay. The combination of > operating system and web browser results in delays from 20 seconds to > several minutes if the IPv6 path is broken[2]. The typical message > flow of a TCP client is shown in Figure 1. Clearly, this delay is > unacceptable to users. Users avoid this delay by disabling IPv6[3] > or avoiding IPv6-enabled websites. The decision to enable IPV6 by default was a mistake. The only beneficial side effect was that it taught me not to do robo-updates any more . -- Walter Dnes
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 01:34:15 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > > Blaming the devs for your broken modem/router is rather unfair. If > > you'd known it was unable to handle IPv6 correctly, why didn't you > > set the flag accordingly? > > My ISP didn't support ipv6 at that time. They're now running a beta > for native ipv6 (no tunneling) but I don't have the time to play with > bleeding edge stuff. Regardless of the fact that my router/modem does > or does not support ipv6, if I don't have ipv6 service from my ISP (or a > tunnel broker) ipv6 is pointless. But harmless. The severe delays you noticed were the result of a broken modem/router failing to recognise that IPv6 was not available and trying to use it anyway. The usual fix for such a problem is a firmware update. I don't use -*, I did see the ipv6 flag pop up in emerge -uaD world, I disabled it. I supposed it comes down to how much you trust yourself and the devs. Incidentally, you are better off not using -v in this situation because then only changed flags are shown. I still have to get out of the habit of using it, gained years ago when portage didn't shown any use details when you didn't use -v. -- Neil Bothwick Definition of Trust: Two cannibals having oral sex. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
Walter Dnes wrote: So you see, I did learn from my "experience". I do check for stuff like this now. As an additional safety measure, I also begin the USE variable with "-*". I'm starting to like the way Walter thinks. LOL Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:21:33AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote > Blaming the devs for your broken modem/router is rather unfair. If > you'd known it was unable to handle IPv6 correctly, why didn't you > set the flag accordingly? My ISP didn't support ipv6 at that time. They're now running a beta for native ipv6 (no tunneling) but I don't have the time to play with bleeding edge stuff. Regardless of the fact that my router/modem does or does not support ipv6, if I don't have ipv6 service from my ISP (or a tunnel broker) ipv6 is pointless. > If you didn't know, HTH were the devs supposed to know? The devs *CHANGED AN EXISTING DEFAULT FLAG* from -ipv6 to ipv6. What percentage of the user base was running ipv6 a couple of years ago? Why couldn't they have left the default at -ipv6? Ever heard of "the principle of least surprise" aka "the principle of least astonishment"? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment Unnecessarily changing defaults violates that principle in the worst way. There's an old saying... * good judgement is the result of experience * experience is the result of bad judgement As a result of my "experience" with the ipv6 flag, I no longer robo-update. Note that in the first post of this thread, I said... > I normally... > > emerge -pv --deep --update world | less > > ...before updating, to check for booby-traps. So you see, I did learn from my "experience". I do check for stuff like this now. As an additional safety measure, I also begin the USE variable with "-*". -- Walter Dnes
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On 2010/11/18 06:25AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: > How does it differ from screen? Is it sufficiently better to relearn > keystrokes etc? The major difference is that you can split the screen into panes, showing multiple ptys at the same time (similar to vim's :[v]sp, layout wise). Besides that, I think they have mostly similar functionality.
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 04:46:16 +, Stroller wrote: > If you're not using a GUI terminal emulator with a scrollbar, then may > I respectfully suggest you install `tmux` (a replacement for GNU > `screen`) and use it. It takes a little while to get familiar with it, > and with its keybindings and stuff, and perhaps even to get into the > habit and mindset of using it, but it really is brilliant, How does it differ from screen? Is it sufficiently better to relearn keystrokes etc? -- Neil Bothwick If you think talk is cheap, try hiring a lawyer. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 19:20:25 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > Because I don't want a repeat of the ipv6 fiasco where I had an almost > non-functional browser, mediaplayer (for internet files), etc, etc. Hardly non-functional - desperately slow maybe but far from non-functional. Blaming the devs for your broken modem/router is rather unfair. If you'd known it was unable to handle IPv6 correctly, why didn't you set the flag accordingly? If you didn't know, HTH were the devs supposed to know? Bear in mind the current thread discussing Gentoo following upstream closely and setting suitable defaults. Upstream include IPv6 support, Gentoo provides an option to turn this off, you missed it. That's a very poor performance for a control freak (speaking from a personal perspective). -- Neil Bothwick A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On 18/11/2010, at 12:20am, Walter Dnes wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 01:41:45PM +, Stroller wrote > >> It's probably fixed in one of the updates! Why are you posting before >> you checked that!?!? > > It started happening suddenly And yes, I did search bugzilla, > although I admit my searches aren't always perfect. And if "emerge > --sync" output ends up telling me there is a portage update, I do run > it first. You can't properly check if your bug is fixed in the updates by checking bugzilla. You need to check by *applying* the updates. In your previous message you didn't tell us that you'd upgraded Portage to the latest before getting this error on 115 remaining updates, and if you did actually do that, it doesn't really matter, because you still need to run the other updates first. If you phoned HP or Dell tech support and said you had a problem, they would ask if you had the latest version(s) of the software on your machine. They might well expect you to run system update to ensure all system packages are up to date, too. You shouldn't expect more support effort from the list than you would from a company you're paying for help! You might *get* more support effort from the folks here on the list, but that's because we're nice people (well, we all are except me and Alan) - make it easier for us! I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but I think it's daft to ask the list for help when your system isn't up to date. It might not fix the problem on this occasion, but don't sneer at me if that's the case because plenty of times it will. You've got more than one easy workaround that will overcome this problem and allow you to review the `emerge --pretend` output for the duration of this emerge. The effort of writing an email asking for help (and giving all the information) is so much more than that of just running the update, that even if the update doesn't fix the problem 95% of the time, it's still less effort cumulatively to always update the system before looking into the problem! Incidentally: in your original message you stated that you pipe the output of `emerge -pv --update` to less. This will remove colour from the output, cause it to be rendered in black and white, and make it harder to read. I have one machine that doesn't do terminal colours - I don't use it that much, so I'm not sure that it's worth fixing, but only the other day I was marvelling at how much easier it is to read stuff on my Gentoo boxes with with syntax highlighting sprinkled throughout my terminal. For instance I use `export MANPAGER="/usr/bin/most"`. If you're not using a GUI terminal emulator with a scrollbar, then may I respectfully suggest you install `tmux` (a replacement for GNU `screen`) and use it. It takes a little while to get familiar with it, and with its keybindings and stuff, and perhaps even to get into the habit and mindset of using it, but it really is brilliant, and it will allow you to page through output of `emerge --pretend` whilst retaining the colours that portage applies to the USE flag information. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
Apparently, though unproven, at 02:20 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Walter Dnes did opine thusly: > Because I don't want a repeat of the ipv6 fiasco where I had an almost > non-functional browser, mediaplayer (for internet files), etc, etc. And > I also had to run "emerge --newuse --update world" and inspect the > output from "emerge -pv --depclean" and remove additional stuff, and > then revdep-rebuild to clean up the resulting extra "goodies". If I > don't use "-*" what's the next flag that the devs will add? And how many > of my current packages will link against it? emerge -avuND world will show you, in colour, USE flags that have changed. You can then decide what to do about them. Your way, you have to explicitly add back in all the flags you want. You will not receive the benefit of seeing changed defaults (and there might be a good reason for the change, but now you will miss them). You also just trashed most of the usefulness of profiles and have to manually tracked all default USE changes yourself. The usual way (not to do what you do) still lets you control as much as you want but with the minimum effort as opposed to the maximum effort. You will only need to make a decision when a decision needs to be made. Why are you making more work for yourself? Portage is software, let it do what software is good at - removing drudge work from your life so you can get on with the important things, stuff that needs thought -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 01:41:45PM +, Stroller wrote > It's probably fixed in one of the updates! Why are you posting before > you checked that!?!? It started happening suddenly And yes, I did search bugzilla, although I admit my searches aren't always perfect. And if "emerge --sync" output ends up telling me there is a portage update, I do run it first. > > The main quirk on my mcahines is that I start USE with "-*" on all my > > machines. This goes back to when the developers "in their infinite > > wisdom", decided to make ipv6 a default USE flag. > > Why not just use -ipv6 as a global USE flag!?!? > > I have to admit that the Gentoo devs have in the past made decisions > which have caused me to be suspicious of their sanity. But if I > disagree with them over a USE flag I just add it to make.conf. Because I don't want a repeat of the ipv6 fiasco where I had an almost non-functional browser, mediaplayer (for internet files), etc, etc. And I also had to run "emerge --newuse --update world" and inspect the output from "emerge -pv --depclean" and remove additional stuff, and then revdep-rebuild to clean up the resulting extra "goodies". If I don't use "-*" what's the next flag that the devs will add? And how many of my current packages will link against it? On occasion, "emerge -pv --deep --update world" will complain that a certain USE flag is required for my config. At that time, I will decide if I really want the package that requires the flag, and if so, whether to enable the flag globally or one-off in /etc/package.use OK, so I'm a control freak. That's one reason I left Windows. I want to be in charge of my machine. -- Walter Dnes
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
On 17/11/2010, at 12:25am, Walter Dnes wrote: > I have a main machine and a backup machine. The main machine is 64-bit > and the backup is 32-bit, but otherwise very similar setup. I > haven't updated the backup (32-bit machine) for a while, > ... there are > 151 lines of output in file x and output is going to stderr. This > happens on only the backup machine, not the main machine. It's probably fixed in one of the updates! Why are you posting before you checked that!?!? Use `screen` or `tmux` in place of `less` if you need to scroll back over the results of --pretend before running the emerge. > The main quirk on my mcahines is that I start USE with "-*" on all my > machines. This goes back to when the developers "in their infinite > wisdom", decided to make ipv6 a default USE flag. Why not just use -ipv6 as a global USE flag!?!? I have to admit that the Gentoo devs have in the past made decisions which have caused me to be suspicious of their sanity. But if I disagree with them over a USE flag I just add it to make.conf. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
> do so today (115 packages emerge). I normally... > > emerge -pv --deep --update world | less > > ...before updating, to check for booby-traps. Today, the output on the > backup machine blasted to screen, and did not stop until finished. > Meanwhile, the bottom of the screen shows "lines 1-4/4 (END) ". > Actually, it's 151 lines of output. Similarly... > > emerge -pv --deep --update world > x > > ...shows only 4 lines in file x, while the output blasted to the screen. > > emerge -pv --deep --update world > x 2>&1 > > ...does work, sending everything to file x. That's how I know there are > 151 lines of output in file x and output is going to stderr. This > happens on only the backup machine, not the main machine. It's not a > showstopper, and I can work around it. Having said that, I'd like to do > a proper fix. > My first guess would be different versions of emerge sending output to different places. Are the portage versions the same?
[gentoo-user] One machine sends "emerge" text output to stderr, not stdout
I have a main machine and a backup machine. The main machine is 64-bit and the backup is 32-bit, but otherwise very similar setup. I haven't updated the backup (32-bit machine) for a while, and decided to do so today (115 packages emerge). I normally... emerge -pv --deep --update world | less ...before updating, to check for booby-traps. Today, the output on the backup machine blasted to screen, and did not stop until finished. Meanwhile, the bottom of the screen shows "lines 1-4/4 (END) ". Actually, it's 151 lines of output. Similarly... emerge -pv --deep --update world > x ...shows only 4 lines in file x, while the output blasted to the screen. emerge -pv --deep --update world > x 2>&1 ...does work, sending everything to file x. That's how I know there are 151 lines of output in file x and output is going to stderr. This happens on only the backup machine, not the main machine. It's not a showstopper, and I can work around it. Having said that, I'd like to do a proper fix. The main quirk on my mcahines is that I start USE with "-*" on all my machines. This goes back to when the developers "in their infinite wisdom", decided to make ipv6 a default USE flag. It was not fun watching Firefox and mplayer sit for 45 seconds until the IPV6 contact attempt time out, before contacting remote sites with IPV4. The machine is a bog-standard Dell D530 dual core. /proc/cpuinfo shows > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 15 > model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU2140 @ 1.60GHz > stepping: 2 Any ideas? -- Walter Dnes
