Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 10:17 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: And finally, I think that alll init systems are going to become very irrelevant in the next few years, as what they provide, can be passed from a *personal cluster* to any and all hardware, dymanically. That's what the cell phones (smart phones) do now. What do you mean? (Android has its own init and iOS has launchd.)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 02:39:53 AM Mark David Dumlao wrote: Why do I get the feeling that this is another episode of the i hate LennartSoft(tm) too circlejerk on the gentoo mailing list? Why do I get the feeling you just want another flamewar? I don't see any mention of systemd or anything else written by Lennart, apart from your comment. this mailing list used to be about gentoo. It still is. On Dec 3, 2014 1:38 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I'm not suggesting that /usr types of systems are going away. I'm just pointing out that they're not really the focus of CoreOS (hosting them inside containers is, but not running these kinds of applications in the host itself). I do not intend to follow the CoreOS commercial path. It intend to mod gentoo to achieve those attractive attributes back into my gentoo proper. tftp, pxe, dhcp, uefi and many other tools give us a path to running the least (embedded) to the most (complex traditional server) as an extension (compliment) to the cluster. So as was pointed out, I'm merely lifting form CoreOS what they lifted from their predicessors; no more no less. I see the gentoo admins being able to move hardrware in and out of the cluster, dynamically and being able to run many sorts of gentoo systems (embedded to fulls server) on a myriad of hardware they own and control. You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. YES!, I want Gentoo to CRUSH CoreOS because we can and our goal is not to deceptively move users to a rent the binary jail. OK? think many of us would love to see that, and I've been an advocate of paring down at system for just this reason. I just wouldn't use the term CoreOS with that as this is going to lead to confusion. CoreOS is a specialized distro intended to host containers, no more, no less. OK, we see CoreOS differently. For me it was an Epiphany moment of where I'm been trying to end up, with the aforementioned Gentoo twists. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. CoreOS will never be in my critical path. Large corporations will turn computer scientist and hackers into WalMart type-employees. Conglomerates are the enemy, imho. I fear Conglomerates much more than any group of government idiots. ymmv. (warning digression) Just look at the entire net neutrality turf struggle. That sort of corner the market monopolistic behavior would not be possible, if we had just maintained the MAE precedence for network peering. Obama had little choice; but, putting networks under SS7 style telecom regulations is a deceptive and horrible idea. Conglomerates lobby congress and get very bad ideas written into law. All we needed is regulation to allow (force) all networks to peer with other networks. The entire concept of private peering is horseshit and it should be ended immediately. CoreOS and the Cloud lobbyist can easily get regulations passed to put an end to this linux experiment, imho. Differnt subject I know, but the tactics of conglomerates are always the same. Roll up competition and eliminate it, oh all in the name of better security and portecting our 1st amendment rights and our conglomerates. (sorry of the digression). But, again, I'm all for a more lightweight Gentoo profile that doesn't bundle stuff like openssh, or even an init implementation (since we have several to choose from now). Funny, ssh is one of a few things I would put into drastically reduce @system. ymmv, unless you are going to add something like netconsole.c back into the bundle. I do not see my vision of the cluster (CoreOS insprired) to be limiting to anyone at Gentoo. Not the embedded folks, not the mimalist, not any init-camp, not the devs, hackers, or wannabees. And certainly not the users. Is this a large undertaking? Certainly. Are the pieces mostly already in existence, just scattered about and transversing time? (methinks YES). It all depends on how your vision works. Being older, I see a return to massive diskless nodes being what CoreOS and the entire Cloud Vendor conglomerates want. Conversely, I see those cheap microP now accompanied by enormous amount of ram and SSD that is dirt cheap forming the building blocks for the Gentoo cluster paradigm shift. I see Gentoo smashing that Cloud-vendor CoreOS paradigm by provide what they offer and so much more (full /usr systems) out of the same core codebase. I see Gentoo keeping the rank and file computer scientists and hackers, gamefully employed. I see the CoreOS folks
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Look up. the very first post contrastd coreos' systemd as opposed to openrc, bringing words like evilution into the park. later on we hear that coreos is stealing gentoo's ideas and hope that it is CRUSHED. but why? its its own frigging distro now. not gentoo by a long shot. On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 02:39:53 AM Mark David Dumlao wrote: Why do I get the feeling that this is another episode of the i hate LennartSoft(tm) too circlejerk on the gentoo mailing list? Why do I get the feeling you just want another flamewar? I don't see any mention of systemd or anything else written by Lennart, apart from your comment. this mailing list used to be about gentoo. It still is. On Dec 3, 2014 1:38 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I'm not suggesting that /usr types of systems are going away. I'm just pointing out that they're not really the focus of CoreOS (hosting them inside containers is, but not running these kinds of applications in the host itself). I do not intend to follow the CoreOS commercial path. It intend to mod gentoo to achieve those attractive attributes back into my gentoo proper. tftp, pxe, dhcp, uefi and many other tools give us a path to running the least (embedded) to the most (complex traditional server) as an extension (compliment) to the cluster. So as was pointed out, I'm merely lifting form CoreOS what they lifted from their predicessors; no more no less. I see the gentoo admins being able to move hardrware in and out of the cluster, dynamically and being able to run many sorts of gentoo systems (embedded to fulls server) on a myriad of hardware they own and control. You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. YES!, I want Gentoo to CRUSH CoreOS because we can and our goal is not to deceptively move users to a rent the binary jail. OK? think many of us would love to see that, and I've been an advocate of paring down at system for just this reason. I just wouldn't use the term CoreOS with that as this is going to lead to confusion. CoreOS is a specialized distro intended to host containers, no more, no less. OK, we see CoreOS differently. For me it was an Epiphany moment of where I'm been trying to end up, with the aforementioned Gentoo twists. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. CoreOS will never be in my critical path. Large corporations will turn computer scientist and hackers into WalMart type-employees. Conglomerates are the enemy, imho. I fear Conglomerates much more than any group of government idiots. ymmv. (warning digression) Just look at the entire net neutrality turf struggle. That sort of corner the market monopolistic behavior would not be possible, if we had just maintained the MAE precedence for network peering. Obama had little choice; but, putting networks under SS7 style telecom regulations is a deceptive and horrible idea. Conglomerates lobby congress and get very bad ideas written into law. All we needed is regulation to allow (force) all networks to peer with other networks. The entire concept of private peering is horseshit and it should be ended immediately. CoreOS and the Cloud lobbyist can easily get regulations passed to put an end to this linux experiment, imho. Differnt subject I know, but the tactics of conglomerates are always the same. Roll up competition and eliminate it, oh all in the name of better security and portecting our 1st amendment rights and our conglomerates. (sorry of the digression). But, again, I'm all for a more lightweight Gentoo profile that doesn't bundle stuff like openssh, or even an init implementation (since we have several to choose from now). Funny, ssh is one of a few things I would put into drastically reduce @system. ymmv, unless you are going to add something like netconsole.c back into the bundle. I do not see my vision of the cluster (CoreOS insprired) to be limiting to anyone at Gentoo. Not the embedded folks, not the mimalist, not any init-camp, not the devs, hackers, or wannabees. And certainly not the users. Is this a large undertaking? Certainly. Are the pieces mostly already in existence, just scattered about and transversing time? (methinks YES). It all depends on how your vision works. Being older, I see a return to massive diskless nodes being what CoreOS and the entire Cloud Vendor conglomerates want. Conversely, I see those cheap microP now accompanied by enormous amount of ram and SSD that is dirt cheap forming the building blocks for the Gentoo cluster paradigm shift. I see Gentoo
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Mark David Dumlao madum...@gmail.com wrote: but why? its its own frigging distro now. not gentoo by a long shot. I think it is actually a compliment to the flexibility of Gentoo that these derivatives are so different. Gentoo is a somewhat-generic linux distro overall - in its default install it isn't too different from Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Arch on the surface and in terms of typical package selection. However, ChromeOS and CoreOS are very non-traditional linux distros. When people ask me what Gentoo is good for I of course talk about enthusiasts who care about both understanding their systems and having a high degree of control, but I also talk about projects where you're trying to blaze new trails and departing significantly from the typical linux desktop or LAMP box. If all you want is a stable LAMP box then honestly you're probably better off with the likes of Debian/CentOS/etc. However, if you're doing something embedded, or trying to change the world, then starting with Gentoo gives you a lot more flexibility to blaze new ground while not having to build EVERYTHING from scratch. So, when people use Gentoo to do things that we personally don't find useful, I think it is just a testimony to the fact that we've actually accomplished one of our core missions: empowering our users to make their own choices. -- Rich
[gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Mark David Dumlao madumlao at gmail.com writes: Look up. the very first post contrastd coreos' systemd as opposed to openrc, bringing words like evilution into the park. That refers to the concept of conglomerates vs the people. Systemd is only mentioned in passing. If it offends you, ignore it, OK? I did not see any of the openrc camp chime in. Besides, as was pointed out later on we hear that coreos is stealing gentoo's ideas and hope that it is CRUSHED. That references my long history with large corporations, like the MAE system that worked fine until the US congress gave the (US) internet to the conglomerate Telcos; and I issued a warning about that rant. It was only to substantiate what conglomerates do to otherwise wonderful open source projects, imho. but why? its its own frigging distro now. not gentoo by a long shot. Many have stated that CoreOS is a gentoo (certainly inspired) derivative. The focus of MY THREAD is the ideas and technologies that CoreOS has lifted from Gentoo and my search for a robust Clustering paradigm that is gentoo centric and thusly landed squarely where CoreOS is. I have found many legacy codes that did the same thing as what CoreOS is doing, but for one reason or another they were abondoned. On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 02:39:53 AM Mark David Dumlao wrote: Why do I get the feeling that this is another episode of the i hate LennartSoft(tm) too circlejerk on the gentoo mailing list? Why do I get the feeling you just want another flamewar? I don't see any mention of systemd or anything else written by Lennart, apart from your comment. This is correct, but, very sad. Since Gentoo is openly supporting OpenRC, I'm staying with Gentoo. If I want a thread on Systemd, I'll be sure to put it in the title. If systemd is casually mentioned, please don't get your panties in a bunch, EVERYONE, as systemd is going to fine and the other init centric folks will be fine too. this mailing list used to be about gentoo. It still is. AGREED. I do not intend to follow the CoreOS commercial path. I intend to mod gentoo to achieve those attractive attributes back into my gentoo proper. Boy, this and many other theme sentences pretty much spell out my interest in this thread. If anyone researches gentoo's history there was a rich environment on HPC, distributed, and clusters; somehow it all was allowed to atrophy and I do not find any valid reasons. My science/math needs dictate to me a need for a robust cluster based on Gentoo. My embedded needs dictate a need for a gentoo cluster. The deprecation of Tinderbox at Gentoo strongly suggests a need for a gentoo cluster. My routine admin needs dictate a need for a Gentoo Cluster. My girlfriend likes the idea of a Gentoo cluster. CoreOS is nothing more than something where I can robb original gentoo thunder from, for my gentoo cluster. Other than that, I do see CoreOS and it's primary sponsers, as *EVIL* OK? ymmv. And finally, I think that alll init systems are going to become very irrelevant in the next few years, as what they provide, can be passed from a *personal cluster* to any and all hardware, dymanically. That's what the cell phones (smart phones) do now. That is what the NSA has been doing for over a decade now. In fact that is what most all major nation states have been doing for a very long time. It's been game set match at the transistor level and with numerous back doors in the Rf domain, hidden deeply in the Rf noise domain for decades. Historically it was called signal intercept. Do your research or find an accomplished EE with a few decades of experience in Rf and listen to them. It's old hat. Get real. Systemd is a piss_ant and is irrelevant, IMO! Openrc is not in my critical path either, although I have a very, very strong affection to it. It's called loyalty and much of the symbiotic relational world is build upon loyalty. Some do not understand this, and I cannot help those folks that do not understand loyalty. So, let's focus on modernizing Gentoo, shall we? OK? (focus dude, focus). hth, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Rich Freeman wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Mark David Dumlao madum...@gmail.com wrote: but why? its its own frigging distro now. not gentoo by a long shot. I think it is actually a compliment to the flexibility of Gentoo that these derivatives are so different. Gentoo is a somewhat-generic linux distro overall - in its default install it isn't too different from Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Arch on the surface and in terms of typical package selection. However, ChromeOS and CoreOS are very non-traditional linux distros. When people ask me what Gentoo is good for I of course talk about enthusiasts who care about both understanding their systems and having a high degree of control, but I also talk about projects where you're trying to blaze new trails and departing significantly from the typical linux desktop or LAMP box. If all you want is a stable LAMP box then honestly you're probably better off with the likes of Debian/CentOS/etc. However, if you're doing something embedded, or trying to change the world, then starting with Gentoo gives you a lot more flexibility to blaze new ground while not having to build EVERYTHING from scratch. So, when people use Gentoo to do things that we personally don't find useful, I think it is just a testimony to the fact that we've actually accomplished one of our core missions: empowering our users to make their own choices. +1 more power to you Rich. thanks Saifi.
[gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: ChromeOS is most definitely a Gentoo derivative [2,3,4], even though that fact is not really well known (and not really publicised). Thanks for the links. I did not see that bit of history... Interesting. Talk about a march of init systems. You have Gentoo which defaults to openrc and supports systemd, to ChromeOS which only supports upstart, to CoreOS which uses systemd. I have always maintained that init system, is only critical choices, because the cloud/cluster technologies are not yet mature. What you get from these init system, can easily be established with a few files at boot time (PXE and many others methods), that is what CoreOS is doing, just in an updated fashion. In any case, the whole point of both ChromeOS and CoreOS is that they're hosts for running applications completely outside of the usual unix-y approach of sticking stuff in /usr. Applications on ChromeOS are Chrome extensions and the like, and applications on CoreOS are containers. The whole point of both is to abstract away all the guts of how the OS operates, so the choice of init really shouldn't matter much to anybody using either. If you really want to stick stuff in /usr and interact with host processes directly, then you really should find a distro which isn't designed to be a black box in this regard. Yes, your are correct, that is what the cloud vendors are striving for. I see a much deeper future, that leverages their ideas to invigorate Gentoo. In the good old days, it was very common for folks to build up minimized gentoo sytems, by starting of with -* in the USE settings of make.conf. Sure now that sort of thing is frowned upon by the devs, but it was and is a very valid method to minimize the size and complexity of a system. I still have running gentoo sytems with just a few flags set and with -* in the USE settings. I do not sync them, but update them selectively in a manual process. This yeilds a linux system, usually for a special purpose, that is so minimized it's very close to a stipped/optimized embedded system. WE seem to have lost the embedded focus here at gentoo. Gentoo-embedded, as a discussion/sharing group seems to be dead; but I think it is because most are slobberingly working on 64 bit arm offerings. Minimized sytems can be delivered via something like CoreOS and then the other codes (binaries whatever) can be added dynamically to yield a very focused target system, a replacement system, or a parallel system to handle a dynamic resource loading problem, jus to name a few reason for the CoreOS approach to building up a cluster. I do not see the /usr types of systems (like a current gentoo workstation or server) going away any time soon. What I hope WE can pull off at Gentoo is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I was just very surprised to stumble across CoreOS; as it is what my hopes (vision?) of Gentoo are to be, beside continuing the traditional linux progression (/var/usr/local/home/etc. )type of unix derivative OS. I do believe that this traditional linux (what's left of unix) belongs to the masses and force feeding of systemd was a very, very poorly made decision. I do see the Cloud vendors eating away at the Microsoft and Apple user base and large companies with masses of clerical employees. So, to sum this up, in my view, is to say that CoreOS (ideas) offers us a pathway to be able to build (via dynamic downloads) any system we want from a minimized linux state machine on a 16 bit core, to a -* minimized gentoo system or a full gentoo linux workstataion or server. Substitute cluster controlled by user for cloud and I really like the CoreOS vision. I think they have stolen the Gentoo Grand Unification Theory from us, because we are napping here at Gentoo. Just so folk know, a minimize system is far easier to keep secure, and replace dynamically for whatever the failure reason is. I guess that CoreOS is just building up clusters from derivatives ot TFTPboot.. That is what's old (farts) is new again, as it appears we are returning full circle. YiPe! James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:35 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: I do not see the /usr types of systems (like a current gentoo workstation or server) going away any time soon. What I hope WE can pull off at Gentoo is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I'm not suggesting that /usr types of systems are going away. I'm just pointing out that they're not really the focus of CoreOS (hosting them inside containers is, but not running these kinds of applications in the host itself). You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. I think many of us would love to see that, and I've been an advocate of paring down @system for just this reason. I just wouldn't use the term CoreOS with that as this is going to lead to confusion. CoreOS is a specialized distro intended to host containers, no more, no less. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. But, again, I'm all for a more lightweight Gentoo profile that doesn't bundle stuff like openssh, or even an init implementation (since we have several to choose from now). -- Rich
[gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I'm not suggesting that /usr types of systems are going away. I'm just pointing out that they're not really the focus of CoreOS (hosting them inside containers is, but not running these kinds of applications in the host itself). I do not intend to follow the CoreOS commercial path. It intend to mod gentoo to achieve those attractive attributes back into my gentoo proper. tftp, pxe, dhcp, uefi and many other tools give us a path to running the least (embedded) to the most (complex traditional server) as an extension (compliment) to the cluster. So as was pointed out, I'm merely lifting form CoreOS what they lifted from their predicessors; no more no less. I see the gentoo admins being able to move hardrware in and out of the cluster, dynamically and being able to run many sorts of gentoo systems (embedded to fulls server) on a myriad of hardware they own and control. You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. YES!, I want Gentoo to CRUSH CoreOS because we can and our goal is not to deceptively move users to a rent the binary jail. OK? think many of us would love to see that, and I've been an advocate of paring down at system for just this reason. I just wouldn't use the term CoreOS with that as this is going to lead to confusion. CoreOS is a specialized distro intended to host containers, no more, no less. OK, we see CoreOS differently. For me it was an Epiphany moment of where I'm been trying to end up, with the aforementioned Gentoo twists. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. CoreOS will never be in my critical path. Large corporations will turn computer scientist and hackers into WalMart type-employees. Conglomerates are the enemy, imho. I fear Conglomerates much more than any group of government idiots. ymmv. (warning digression) Just look at the entire net neutrality turf struggle. That sort of corner the market monopolistic behavior would not be possible, if we had just maintained the MAE precedence for network peering. Obama had little choice; but, putting networks under SS7 style telecom regulations is a deceptive and horrible idea. Conglomerates lobby congress and get very bad ideas written into law. All we needed is regulation to allow (force) all networks to peer with other networks. The entire concept of private peering is horseshit and it should be ended immediately. CoreOS and the Cloud lobbyist can easily get regulations passed to put an end to this linux experiment, imho. Differnt subject I know, but the tactics of conglomerates are always the same. Roll up competition and eliminate it, oh all in the name of better security and portecting our 1st amendment rights and our conglomerates. (sorry of the digression). But, again, I'm all for a more lightweight Gentoo profile that doesn't bundle stuff like openssh, or even an init implementation (since we have several to choose from now). Funny, ssh is one of a few things I would put into drastically reduce @system. ymmv, unless you are going to add something like netconsole.c back into the bundle. I do not see my vision of the cluster (CoreOS insprired) to be limiting to anyone at Gentoo. Not the embedded folks, not the mimalist, not any init-camp, not the devs, hackers, or wannabees. And certainly not the users. Is this a large undertaking? Certainly. Are the pieces mostly already in existence, just scattered about and transversing time? (methinks YES). It all depends on how your vision works. Being older, I see a return to massive diskless nodes being what CoreOS and the entire Cloud Vendor conglomerates want. Conversely, I see those cheap microP now accompanied by enormous amount of ram and SSD that is dirt cheap forming the building blocks for the Gentoo cluster paradigm shift. I see Gentoo smashing that Cloud-vendor CoreOS paradigm by provide what they offer and so much more (full /usr systems) out of the same core codebase. I see Gentoo keeping the rank and file computer scientists and hackers, gamefully employed. I see the CoreOS folks migrating computer scientists and hackers to the Walmart model of underemployment at a few conglomerates. Gentoo provides an excellent set of choices and a very bright future for me (cluster). Other can pick their own poison peace, thanks James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Why do I get the feeling that this is another episode of the i hate LennartSoft(tm) too circlejerk on the gentoo mailing list? this mailing list used to be about gentoo. On Dec 3, 2014 1:38 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: is integration of the best of the CoreOS ideas into Gentoo proper. I'm not suggesting that /usr types of systems are going away. I'm just pointing out that they're not really the focus of CoreOS (hosting them inside containers is, but not running these kinds of applications in the host itself). I do not intend to follow the CoreOS commercial path. It intend to mod gentoo to achieve those attractive attributes back into my gentoo proper. tftp, pxe, dhcp, uefi and many other tools give us a path to running the least (embedded) to the most (complex traditional server) as an extension (compliment) to the cluster. So as was pointed out, I'm merely lifting form CoreOS what they lifted from their predicessors; no more no less. I see the gentoo admins being able to move hardrware in and out of the cluster, dynamically and being able to run many sorts of gentoo systems (embedded to fulls server) on a myriad of hardware they own and control. You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. YES!, I want Gentoo to CRUSH CoreOS because we can and our goal is not to deceptively move users to a rent the binary jail. OK? think many of us would love to see that, and I've been an advocate of paring down at system for just this reason. I just wouldn't use the term CoreOS with that as this is going to lead to confusion. CoreOS is a specialized distro intended to host containers, no more, no less. OK, we see CoreOS differently. For me it was an Epiphany moment of where I'm been trying to end up, with the aforementioned Gentoo twists. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. CoreOS will never be in my critical path. Large corporations will turn computer scientist and hackers into WalMart type-employees. Conglomerates are the enemy, imho. I fear Conglomerates much more than any group of government idiots. ymmv. (warning digression) Just look at the entire net neutrality turf struggle. That sort of corner the market monopolistic behavior would not be possible, if we had just maintained the MAE precedence for network peering. Obama had little choice; but, putting networks under SS7 style telecom regulations is a deceptive and horrible idea. Conglomerates lobby congress and get very bad ideas written into law. All we needed is regulation to allow (force) all networks to peer with other networks. The entire concept of private peering is horseshit and it should be ended immediately. CoreOS and the Cloud lobbyist can easily get regulations passed to put an end to this linux experiment, imho. Differnt subject I know, but the tactics of conglomerates are always the same. Roll up competition and eliminate it, oh all in the name of better security and portecting our 1st amendment rights and our conglomerates. (sorry of the digression). But, again, I'm all for a more lightweight Gentoo profile that doesn't bundle stuff like openssh, or even an init implementation (since we have several to choose from now). Funny, ssh is one of a few things I would put into drastically reduce @system. ymmv, unless you are going to add something like netconsole.c back into the bundle. I do not see my vision of the cluster (CoreOS insprired) to be limiting to anyone at Gentoo. Not the embedded folks, not the mimalist, not any init-camp, not the devs, hackers, or wannabees. And certainly not the users. Is this a large undertaking? Certainly. Are the pieces mostly already in existence, just scattered about and transversing time? (methinks YES). It all depends on how your vision works. Being older, I see a return to massive diskless nodes being what CoreOS and the entire Cloud Vendor conglomerates want. Conversely, I see those cheap microP now accompanied by enormous amount of ram and SSD that is dirt cheap forming the building blocks for the Gentoo cluster paradigm shift. I see Gentoo smashing that Cloud-vendor CoreOS paradigm by provide what they offer and so much more (full /usr systems) out of the same core codebase. I see Gentoo keeping the rank and file computer scientists and hackers, gamefully employed. I see the CoreOS folks migrating computer scientists and hackers to the Walmart model of underemployment at a few conglomerates. Gentoo provides an excellent set of choices and a very bright future for me (cluster). Other can pick their own poison peace, thanks James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:37 PM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: You seem to be wanting a minimalist profile of Gentoo, not CoreOS. YES!, I want Gentoo to CRUSH CoreOS because we can and our goal is not to deceptively move users to a rent the binary jail. OK? Gentoo and CoreOS really target different uses. I certainly could see one being installed more than the other just as there are no doubt more tubes of toothpaste sold in a year than there are iPhones sold in a year (or, at least I hope there are). That doesn't mean that toothpaste is crushing the iPhone. This isn't unlike Gentoo vs ChromeOS. You're comparing a general-purpose distro (and one that is even more general-purpose/customizable than a typical one) to a tool made to do exactly one job well. CoreOS is just about hosting containers. Sure, some of those containers might be rent the binary jails - but you could run Gentoo in one of those containers just as easily. CoreOS really competes with the likes of VMWare/KVM, or even OpenStack. If you don't want to run a bazillion containers, then sure it isn't something you're going to be interested in. It isn't intended as a starting point for embedded projects or such. Sure, maybe you could make it work, but sooner or later CoreOS will make some change that will make you very unhappy because they aren't making it for you. CoreOS will never be in my critical path. Large corporations will turn computer scientist and hackers into WalMart type-employees. Conglomerates are the enemy, imho. I fear Conglomerates much more than any group of government idiots. ymmv. Well, then don't run it! Large corporations are actually the least-progressive when it comes to adopting these kinds of technologies. I actually see thing being embraced by mid-sized companies first. The new way of doing these things lets you quickly scale up from development to production without a lot of manual configuration of individual hosts. I work for a big company and they're still doing lots of manual installation scripts that get signed and dated like it is still the 80s. It isn't Walmart-type work primarily because it is so error-prone we always need people to fix all the stuff that breaks. My LUG meets at a mid-sized VoIP company that uses the likes of Puppet/Chef for everything and I'm sure Docker is on their radar as something to think about next - they're hardly robots but they realize that they'd rather have their bright employees doing something other than dealing with botched updates on hosts that bring down 47 VMs at a time. Their customers like that they can just pay them for a VoIP account and get full service for a low cost, versus paying the kid next door to figure out how to custom-rig a PBX for them. And, yes, they use Asterisk. -- Rich
[gentoo-user] Re: Custom ebuilds for CoreOS
Rich Freeman rich0 at gentoo.org writes: To me, it appears that some forward looking folks have forked (stolen the best parts?) gentoo, made some fundamental (long overdue changes) and are all about creating a source_to_cluster platform. (h, vaguely sounds familiar...scratching head). It is a natural evilution for linux to take; or are we going to embrace some much needed change (new ideas) into gentoo? I have no idea if CoreOS is Gentoo-derived, but it is very much a special-purpose distro. The whole concept is that you put all the value-add in the containers, and then you just want a really standard and lightweight distro to host your containers in. Maybe you run CentOS in one container, and Gentoo in another container, and Debian in another container. Your first points are understood; and centos appear to be focused on the commercial cloud mentality of don't buy hareware, rent containers from us crowd. That, to me, is a fool's path. What I'm hoping for is that with the (gentoo) past of revolving devs, Hasufell ideas for distributed development by reducing the gentoo core; Flameyes takedown of tinderbox, my pursuit of clustering and many other issues (pid1) all seem to inidcate that many distros are fundamentally examining their path(s) forward. So, I think gentoo can have a minimize version that achieves what CoreOS is doing, but it is gentoo-bare-metal centric. I think Gentoo can robustly support systemd and openrc, containers and other key areas and new technologies, in a fundamentally unique way. I do think a fundamental update to the entire gentoo environment is a healthy ares for discussion. I do appreciate your insights on coreOS. I see it as a minimized embedded effort to bring resources into a cluster that is exclusively controlled by the owner. I have zero interest in the cloud as beside being a very dumb idea for too many reasons to innumerate, it removes folks from gaining knowledge of direct hardware experiences. I do love the way the cloud vendors find and collect up the very best ideas. I hate how the cloud vendors want to offer those best ideas, as a transient benefit via time-rented binaries. I strongly believe we are at a nexus (a vergence in the force) as many new technologies are converging very rapidly. Call it what you like, but, we are at the crossroads of some very unique opportunites, imho. If we had a gentoo cluster right now, something like tinderbox would have been running there all along. YMMV. James
