Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 >>> Even self-destructive behavior is in the vast majority of >>> cases engaged in with the *intention* of profit. Best example I >>> can think of would be a drug addict/alcoholic. When they >>> use/drink, they 'profit' in that the feel better (albeit >>> temporarily), regardless of the ultimate result. > >> I wasn't really talking about drug addicts. > > You said 'self-destructive', so I just used the best > 'self-destructive' reference I could think of... It was not the best. > >> If you are interested in real self-destructive behaviour, talk >> to someone who has worked in an asylum which is only one >> interesting environment that can make you think very different >> about "people". > > Ok, well, I wasn't talking about the truly *insane*, and it is > disingenuous to use them as any kind of example in comparison to > 'the rest of us'... > That is just one example and those are not few people. Ruling them out in your generalization is invalid and just proves that you are trolling. "The rest of us" is as well defined as your "profit intention" stuff. Meh. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTB/ZWAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzO8UIAJHAVyQCrpMp/bW0yKbAnHSK yvW+15teMgbQZQdru34OYjXHpiLFgjnKF+OwGgOE8+vA908Kawc5Fme2aazYGtC1 gnqFlnnFkMiE37hNvGmef7Jpzl/q1UuZPJHDeh6m0kAJ0QjoxbANxNayQThd1QNX UrlJEpzOr6LwDrjkTnnwcwzNLymr9EB8NAehqd4B5/jsf0ZFoUo7Zn9DOhlv8olp PqdnjkVuIgrtVxhd6OBeQ3OVPsE7qyI5ZTfJUDYYef38WJ6PDj2Nc7jEblJKPsxS NWnZKfS/1w7oIUqnzwS36mKf+PhWrGqefJcIfE3E68DeW+2kxpZlvSCnFMM/sX4= =eRGW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:35:39 + hasufell wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Tanstaafl: > > On 2014-02-21 12:17 PM, hasufell wrote: > >> Then you ignore self-destructive behaviour which is a common > >> thing in this world. It can even be intentional, causing no > >> emotional, financial, social or intellectual profit. Maybe you > >> have never met such a person or have never been in such an > >> environment. > > > > You are confusing 'intent' with 'result'. > > No. You are confusing yourself with the rest of the world. :-) > > Even self-destructive behavior is in the vast majority of cases > > engaged in with the *intention* of profit. Best example I can think > > of would be a drug addict/alcoholic. When they use/drink, they > > 'profit' in that the feel better (albeit temporarily), regardless > > of the ultimate result. > > > > I wasn't really talking about drug addicts. > > If you are interested in real self-destructive behaviour, talk to > someone who has worked in an asylum which is only one interesting > environment that can make you think very different about "people". > > There are even people who are not driven by anything, not even > self-destruction. Pure apathy. > > Another interesting thing... talk to a trial lawyer who has been in > that business for 10+ years. I really doubt that many of those will > support your "profit intention" concept. Most of the time it's about > short-cut reactions that are merely following instincts or emotional > impulses. Strong emotions can make someone lose control and do all > sorts of weird things without any hope or intention of > improving/gaining anything for living it out. > It's chemistry, it changes your consciousness. "Profit" is a bit more > complex and requires a minimum amount of reflection, even if it is > subconscious, short sighted and follows false assumptions. > > So these are just 3 points why your generalization does not work, like > most of those "all people..." phrases. Unless you hack on the > definition until it suits your interpretation, like redefining "profit > intention" to "intention". Thank you for the wonderful answer! > This reminds me of "the user" in computer science papers. Well, which > one. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTB6qKAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzD5MH/3qVBSactWRWng+x1bT29eP/ > Vsd3pSdP5GJ5JkH8Vj2LAhRJy9feRselI/TnZuXOOT+gTzAT+ip1fgqmIHTkaLEx > Z1a4L5WXEQxTq9aSoaBFzxstont0zb6LWHfW+c8H+V6UTXPUv6ZdGqP+PlLMLpYO > az0KiB09PMa/a3LOzPjhACQ6s1aRo5d4mUqOG91rxh3bOljt6WlMJ61ZEATQGwZt > iZJff4sO0qG9p6YeoZED0ep6QvH4UGkfl3yboiVf08uf9mbGSTnOffe5GSJqeBKo > 9uGK/tJJ4vkYqcEG60pZaqBuIguobzh84rwWg8DGs++Nv9dWbXi7Focpdse/OaU= > =8l+x > -END PGP SIGNATURE- >
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:56:31 -0500 Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2014-02-21 10:28 AM, Gevisz wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:03:47 -0500 > > Tanstaafl wrote: > > > >> On 2014-02-21 8:54 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > >>> If you think all profit is the same, then we are talking on two > >>> different wavelengths. > >> > >> I didn't say that. I said that *everyone* operates under the profit > >> motive. > > > > And that is simply not true. > > Yes, it is, but you may be confused about the meaning of 'profit'. > > Even someone who volunteers in the local soup kitchen feeding the > homeless is doing so under the profit motive. The things is, the > 'profit' involved (may) only involve(s) a 'warm fuzzy good feeling'. > > If you read my previous words Yes, I did. But now, I stop to do so just as have done with Canek before.
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-21 2:35 PM, hasufell wrote: Tanstaafl: On 2014-02-21 12:17 PM, hasufell wrote: Then you ignore self-destructive behaviour which is a common thing in this world. It can even be intentional, causing no emotional, financial, social or intellectual profit. Maybe you have never met such a person or have never been in such an environment. You are confusing 'intent' with 'result'. No. You are confusing yourself with the rest of the world. Not really, but whatever... Even self-destructive behavior is in the vast majority of cases engaged in with the *intention* of profit. Best example I can think of would be a drug addict/alcoholic. When they use/drink, they 'profit' in that the feel better (albeit temporarily), regardless of the ultimate result. I wasn't really talking about drug addicts. You said 'self-destructive', so I just used the best 'self-destructive' reference I could think of... If you are interested in real self-destructive behaviour, talk to someone who has worked in an asylum which is only one interesting environment that can make you think very different about "people". Ok, well, I wasn't talking about the truly *insane*, and it is disingenuous to use them as any kind of example in comparison to 'the rest of us'... There are even people who are not driven by anything, not even self-destruction. Pure apathy. I guarantee they are driven by more than that... often something as simple as 'comfort' (they would only get up in arms if you take away their TV and potato chips)... Another interesting thing... talk to a trial lawyer who has been in that business for 10+ years. I really doubt that many of those will support your "profit intention" concept. Most of the time it's about short-cut reactions that are merely following instincts or emotional impulses. Strong emotions can make someone lose control and do all sorts of weird things without any hope or intention of improving/gaining anything for living it out. Again, you ignore the different meanings of 'profit' and 'intent'. Following instincts or emotional impulses is *still* operating on the same principle. The profit (benefit) they get may be as simple as 'less pain', but it is still a benefit (profit). It's chemistry, it changes your consciousness. "Profit" is a bit more complex and requires a minimum amount of reflection, even if it is subconscious, short sighted and follows false assumptions. Not at all. A bull 'profits' by moving when the cattle prod is jammed up his ass. So these are just 3 points why your generalization does not work, Actually, they all serve to *support* my generalizations... if you are in fact honest enough to admit it.
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Tanstaafl: > On 2014-02-21 12:17 PM, hasufell wrote: >> Then you ignore self-destructive behaviour which is a common >> thing in this world. It can even be intentional, causing no >> emotional, financial, social or intellectual profit. Maybe you >> have never met such a person or have never been in such an >> environment. > > You are confusing 'intent' with 'result'. No. You are confusing yourself with the rest of the world. > > Even self-destructive behavior is in the vast majority of cases > engaged in with the *intention* of profit. Best example I can think > of would be a drug addict/alcoholic. When they use/drink, they > 'profit' in that the feel better (albeit temporarily), regardless > of the ultimate result. > I wasn't really talking about drug addicts. If you are interested in real self-destructive behaviour, talk to someone who has worked in an asylum which is only one interesting environment that can make you think very different about "people". There are even people who are not driven by anything, not even self-destruction. Pure apathy. Another interesting thing... talk to a trial lawyer who has been in that business for 10+ years. I really doubt that many of those will support your "profit intention" concept. Most of the time it's about short-cut reactions that are merely following instincts or emotional impulses. Strong emotions can make someone lose control and do all sorts of weird things without any hope or intention of improving/gaining anything for living it out. It's chemistry, it changes your consciousness. "Profit" is a bit more complex and requires a minimum amount of reflection, even if it is subconscious, short sighted and follows false assumptions. So these are just 3 points why your generalization does not work, like most of those "all people..." phrases. Unless you hack on the definition until it suits your interpretation, like redefining "profit intention" to "intention". This reminds me of "the user" in computer science papers. Well, which one. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTB6qKAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzD5MH/3qVBSactWRWng+x1bT29eP/ Vsd3pSdP5GJ5JkH8Vj2LAhRJy9feRselI/TnZuXOOT+gTzAT+ip1fgqmIHTkaLEx Z1a4L5WXEQxTq9aSoaBFzxstont0zb6LWHfW+c8H+V6UTXPUv6ZdGqP+PlLMLpYO az0KiB09PMa/a3LOzPjhACQ6s1aRo5d4mUqOG91rxh3bOljt6WlMJ61ZEATQGwZt iZJff4sO0qG9p6YeoZED0ep6QvH4UGkfl3yboiVf08uf9mbGSTnOffe5GSJqeBKo 9uGK/tJJ4vkYqcEG60pZaqBuIguobzh84rwWg8DGs++Nv9dWbXi7Focpdse/OaU= =8l+x -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-21 12:17 PM, hasufell wrote: Then you ignore self-destructive behaviour which is a common thing in this world. It can even be intentional, causing no emotional, financial, social or intellectual profit. Maybe you have never met such a person or have never been in such an environment. You are confusing 'intent' with 'result'. Even self-destructive behavior is in the vast majority of cases engaged in with the *intention* of profit. Best example I can think of would be a drug addict/alcoholic. When they use/drink, they 'profit' in that the feel better (albeit temporarily), regardless of the ultimate result.
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Tanstaafl: > On 2014-02-21 11:23 AM, hasufell wrote: >>> Even someone who volunteers in the local soup kitchen feeding >>> the homeless is doing so under the profit motive. The things >>> is, the 'profit' involved (may) only involve(s) a 'warm fuzzy >>> good feeling'. >>> >>> If you read my previous words, I said it wasn't always (though >>> I think it is usually) some kind of 'financial' profit. > >> You didn't say it, but it feels like you are talking about >> "personal profit". If not, then your definition of "profit" is so >> broad, that it is almost meaningless. > > Not at all. The fact is, there are many different ways someone can > 'profit'. > > Another fact is, there has been a concerted effort by some people > to poison the meaning, twisting the meaning of financial profit > into being something bad, as opposed to what it really is - a very > *good* thing (it is a good thing, without it you would DIE). > > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit?sourceid=mozilla > > Take your pick... they are all valid with respect to my comments, > although the one that subtley attempts to create a negative meaning > 'to take advantage: to profit from the WEAKNESS of others' bugs me > no end... > > People can engage in good (ethical, honest, etc) or bad > (unethical, dishonest, etc) behavior in their pursuit of profit, > but it is the *behavior* (ethical/honest or unethical/dishonest) > that is good or bad, not the result (profit). > Then you ignore self-destructive behaviour which is a common thing in this world. It can even be intentional, causing no emotional, financial, social or intellectual profit. Maybe you have never met such a person or have never been in such an environment. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTB4oUAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzKwkH/jZMgmx20pvKBJBSHBzVgzYn GCEo4y6OVLKR4MkOMFPbgDh0OiPyLAGwj9A2QJmstTO2UN9LVwdkZLZIT1V4/kK9 3UGoxz5Q/vgLawnJxKesBmq0Qq1acwaEXojT/tngBpLStYvOcNU3Mq4kDlzAcOJ3 tDVoUpxV7fvsAjJZ7hd4LXVWN3vYC/8AYnAfO6K9Cb+VlGIkGDZ6bYDs0k8Wflxn jdEYdsh0k1Bbr5aDZGXRO9pZl7scLRr8SJha0DJwIhc5ZuazyXrX9R8SNw+QSjN8 NiGUIRWMjvwKuziFqRWCGyOJVpbyoaJkg1fxcOHlWvOyHHcOM9TSHHhhGL7Bg3E= =U4Qh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-21 11:23 AM, hasufell wrote: Even someone who volunteers in the local soup kitchen feeding the homeless is doing so under the profit motive. The things is, the 'profit' involved (may) only involve(s) a 'warm fuzzy good feeling'. If you read my previous words, I said it wasn't always (though I think it is usually) some kind of 'financial' profit. You didn't say it, but it feels like you are talking about "personal profit". If not, then your definition of "profit" is so broad, that it is almost meaningless. Not at all. The fact is, there are many different ways someone can 'profit'. Another fact is, there has been a concerted effort by some people to poison the meaning, twisting the meaning of financial profit into being something bad, as opposed to what it really is - a very *good* thing (it is a good thing, without it you would DIE). http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit?sourceid=mozilla Take your pick... they are all valid with respect to my comments, although the one that subtley attempts to create a negative meaning 'to take advantage: to profit from the WEAKNESS of others' bugs me no end... People can engage in good (ethical, honest, etc) or bad (unethical, dishonest, etc) behavior in their pursuit of profit, but it is the *behavior* (ethical/honest or unethical/dishonest) that is good or bad, not the result (profit).
Re: OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Tanstaafl: > On 2014-02-21 10:28 AM, Gevisz wrote: >> On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:03:47 -0500 Tanstaafl >> wrote: >> >>> On 2014-02-21 8:54 AM, Daniel Campbell >>> wrote: If you think all profit is the same, then we are talking on two different wavelengths. >>> >>> I didn't say that. I said that *everyone* operates under the >>> profit motive. >> >> And that is simply not true. > > Yes, it is, but you may be confused about the meaning of 'profit'. > > Even someone who volunteers in the local soup kitchen feeding the > homeless is doing so under the profit motive. The things is, the > 'profit' involved (may) only involve(s) a 'warm fuzzy good > feeling'. > > If you read my previous words, I said it wasn't always (though I > think it is usually) some kind of 'financial' profit. > You didn't say it, but it feels like you are talking about "personal profit". If not, then your definition of "profit" is so broad, that it is almost meaningless. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTB32KAAoJEFpvPKfnPDWzvssIALcVgrXn/XGTx5ZmXJjuUpIq eN6m6pBQ8b8oO5ujZpx9/l2rMt5zNzwaLpHhF5UEZiZXEEqt9+NSOP62vEuGHn2y Xk5JUDNngIuQaz4geKJXs9YcyA2ZV1MFhZYaxDBOq4DZ4+j75e0FiHuh3jGHfr1+ qUkZWxyWAxoIGb3CUWTedgpr6HqzMJWycL8BDutItfp7dpCobGoY2DSRKX3iSH73 1jtfOx+Ec2QScAmy+fi7sVN9yp5sSSlM4YVmzS5nSw2zemsYVmfqhrTNdPAcy2QE k1xlalMzoIY2EGi68ThjRniXrAQoH2R7kfQsavFSVfratbjjuvdDHxa4sNnbjAE= =V8cT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
OT: 'profit motive' - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-21 10:28 AM, Gevisz wrote: On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:03:47 -0500 Tanstaafl wrote: On 2014-02-21 8:54 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: If you think all profit is the same, then we are talking on two different wavelengths. I didn't say that. I said that *everyone* operates under the profit motive. And that is simply not true. Yes, it is, but you may be confused about the meaning of 'profit'. Even someone who volunteers in the local soup kitchen feeding the homeless is doing so under the profit motive. The things is, the 'profit' involved (may) only involve(s) a 'warm fuzzy good feeling'. If you read my previous words, I said it wasn't always (though I think it is usually) some kind of 'financial' profit.
