Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On 5/20/06, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 20, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:I like to be one of the good guys. I'm not always sure what that means in particular cases, so I'm going to ask what I should do here. Opinions welcome. Flames somewhat less so. I got a 30-day trial license for vmware, thinking to replace my aging Win4Lin. It seems to work (thanks to folks on this list). But I notice that now that I've created my VMs, I may not need workstation any more. I could do very well with the player, which is free.I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... There is this which fits your budgethttp://www.parallels.com / Yes, the price is right, but when I tried it I could not make it work. ++ kevin -- Kevin O'Gorman, PhD
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Kevin O'Gorman wrote: On 5/20/06, *Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC* [EMAIL PROTECTED] I like to be one of the good guys. I'm not always sure what that means in particular cases, so I'm going to ask what I should do here. Opinions welcome. Flames somewhat less so. I got a 30-day trial license for vmware, thinking to replace my aging Win4Lin. It seems to work (thanks to folks on this list). But I notice that now that I've created my VMs, I may not need workstation any more. I could do very well with the player, which is free. I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... There is this which fits your budget http://www.parallels.com http://www.parallels.com/ Yes, the price is right, but when I tried it I could not make it work. ++ kevin I am using VMware 4.x workstation. The workstation performance is better than the free versions. I use Linux for my main desktop, however I do MS Win C# programming for a living so I couldn't just ditch WinXP. I find using VMWare very acceptable performance-wise, about 90% of my AMD64 3200+ speed, with 2GB I don't even notice I am running WinXP in a virtual machine. However, the 4.x version is getting a little outdated, and doesn't have the cleanest install on a 2.6 kernel. From time to time, I get sound locking issues, or the VMware kernel modules won't load even though I didn't change my kernel. So I went to look to upgrade/purchase the 5.x version and it is a little costly for home use. It is dirt cheap for corporate use though. Thanks for the link to Parallels. The price is great. I will go give it a test and and report back. I would think that Parallels works on Gentoo. They have a screenshot of it running on Gentoo with a Fedora VM. http://www.parallels.com/files/upload/ecomfedora_gentoo.gif Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
JimD wrote: Kevin O'Gorman wrote: Yes, the price is right, but when I tried it I could not make it work. ++ kevin I am using VMware 4.x workstation. The workstation performance is better than the free versions. I use Linux for my main desktop, however I do MS Win C# programming for a living so I couldn't just ditch WinXP. I find using VMWare very acceptable performance-wise, about 90% of my AMD64 3200+ speed, with 2GB I don't even notice I am running WinXP in a virtual machine. However, the 4.x version is getting a little outdated, and doesn't have the cleanest install on a 2.6 kernel. From time to time, I get sound locking issues, or the VMware kernel modules won't load even though I didn't change my kernel. So I went to look to upgrade/purchase the 5.x version and it is a little costly for home use. It is dirt cheap for corporate use though. Thanks for the link to Parallels. The price is great. I will go give it a test and and report back. I would think that Parallels works on Gentoo. They have a screenshot of it running on Gentoo with a Fedora VM. http://www.parallels.com/files/upload/ecomfedora_gentoo.gif Jim OK, I have WinXP installed in a Parallels VM. Parallels was *very* easy to install. They have an official Gentoo ebuild on their download page! I grabbed the ebuild and extracted it to /usr/local/portage. It put the ebuild in app-emulation/parallels-workstation. Now just do: sudo emerge app-emulation/parallels-workstation It downloads a tar.gz file and installs everything. Next run: sudo parallels-config This sets up the main vm options and compiles kernel mods. It took a few seconds with no errors. Now as a regular user just run the app: parallels A nice wizard walks you through setting up your VM. I need to do a lot more testing and usage to give a better opinion. However, I will give what I think so far. The price is great! The overall speed is right up there with VMware IMO. I use VMware workstation 4.x 8 hours a day Mon-Fri to do dev work. VM performance is important to me. Make sure you install the parallels tools inside of the VM to get better performance. I have noticed two negatives so far. 1. The video performance is not as fast as VMware 4.x. In VMware 4.x I really don't notice I am using an OS in a VM. With Parallels I have noticed that the mouse can jerk a little if you move the mouse a lot, especially on a web page with a Javascript rollover graphic. 2. The full screen support in VMware 4.x doesn't work for me. So I maximize the window and then use the VMware option to set the guest to fill the scree. I like it this way because I get the largest possible guest resolution while still being able to quickly get to my Linux apps without having to switch from full screen. Full screen support in parallels worked perfectly. However, I haven't found an option to make the guest fit to the host window size. While not a major issue, it is an annoyance to me because I want my guest OS to be as large as possible without being in full screen mode. For now I set the parallels VM to 1152x864. If parallels can speed up the video a little, it could be a real killer to VMware workstation. VMware workstation has great all around performance, however the price puts it out of reach of home users/developers. I will keep doing some more testing. I still have to install Visual Studio 2005, SQL Server 200 Dev and IIS/.Net. I have all of these running in VMware, so I want to see the performance of the same setup in parallels. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 11:52 -0600, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... I have doubts about the performance of a VM on that hardware. I've got a mini and it's not fast (at least running Linux). Usable for general-purpose stuff but it feels pretty sluggish if I ask it to do anything heavy. I don't know any benchmarks, but if I had to give you a feel describing it, I'd put it on par with a 1GHz PIII with a slow drive and not *quite* enough memory. In short, it's great for doing testing on or just day-to-day stuff, but I think running a VM may be out of its league. If you can, replace the disk with a 5400RPM drive which will help a lot. Regards, Cliff -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Cliff Wells wrote: On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 11:52 -0600, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... I have doubts about the performance of a VM on that hardware. I've got a mini and it's not fast (at least running Linux). Usable for general-purpose stuff but it feels pretty sluggish if I ask it to do anything heavy. I don't know any benchmarks, but if I had to give you a feel describing it, I'd put it on par with a 1GHz PIII with a slow drive and not *quite* enough memory. In short, it's great for doing testing on or just day-to-day stuff, but I think running a VM may be out of its league. If you can, replace the disk with a 5400RPM drive which will help a lot. Regards, Cliff Do you have the old mini with a G4 and the dog slow 4200 RPM drive? If so that would explain a lot. The new Intel based ones have a much faster processor and a much better hard drive. The difference is night-and-day. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On May 21, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Cliff Wells wrote: On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 11:52 -0600, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... I have doubts about the performance of a VM on that hardware. I've got a mini and it's not fast (at least running Linux). Usable for general-purpose stuff but it feels pretty sluggish if I ask it to do anything heavy. I don't know any benchmarks, but if I had to give you a feel describing it, I'd put it on par with a 1GHz PIII with a slow drive and not *quite* enough memory. In short, it's great for doing testing on or just day-to-day stuff, but I think running a VM may be out of its league. On a 1.66ghz Core Duo Intel Mac Mini? Or are you talking the 1.42ghz single CPU G4 Mac Mini, the older Mini? The Intel Core Duo is a worthy chip. Obviously I am going to hike the memory up. Lots of people have already given a thumbs up to Parallels in a Core Duo mini with extra RAM added for normal non-gaming use. I just need to run Windows for tax SW, testing web pages in IE, etc. My old Athlon box is starting to develop some disk issues and is old and cranky :-) Chad If you can, replace the disk with a 5400RPM drive which will help a lot. Regards, Cliff -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list --- Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Your Web App and Email hosting provider chad at shire.net -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On Sunday 21 May 2006 15:35, JimD wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 11:52 -0600, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... I have doubts about the performance of a VM on that hardware. I've got a mini and it's not fast (at least running Linux). Usable for general-purpose stuff but it feels pretty sluggish if I ask it to do anything heavy. I don't know any benchmarks, but if I had to give you a feel describing it, I'd put it on par with a 1GHz PIII with a slow drive and not *quite* enough memory. In short, it's great for doing testing on or just day-to-day stuff, but I think running a VM may be out of its league. If you can, replace the disk with a 5400RPM drive which will help a lot. Regards, Cliff Do you have the old mini with a G4 and the dog slow 4200 RPM drive? If so that would explain a lot. The new Intel based ones have a much faster processor and a much better hard drive. The difference is night-and-day. Wot? They're using Intel in the mini too? Hmmm... time to rethink my next linux server appliance... Thank you for the heads up. Jerry -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On May 21, 2006, at 2:55 PM, Jerry McBride wrote: On Sunday 21 May 2006 15:35, JimD wrote: Cliff Wells wrote: On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 11:52 -0600, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives... I have doubts about the performance of a VM on that hardware. I've got a mini and it's not fast (at least running Linux). Usable for general-purpose stuff but it feels pretty sluggish if I ask it to do anything heavy. I don't know any benchmarks, but if I had to give you a feel describing it, I'd put it on par with a 1GHz PIII with a slow drive and not *quite* enough memory. In short, it's great for doing testing on or just day-to-day stuff, but I think running a VM may be out of its league. If you can, replace the disk with a 5400RPM drive which will help a lot. Regards, Cliff Do you have the old mini with a G4 and the dog slow 4200 RPM drive? If so that would explain a lot. The new Intel based ones have a much faster processor and a much better hard drive. The difference is night-and-day. Wot? They're using Intel in the mini too? Hmmm... time to rethink my next linux server appliance... Yes, the mini was upgraded a few months ago. $599 gives you a 1.5ghz Core Solo, 512mb, etc and $799 gives you a 1.66ghz Core Solo, 512mb, etc. You can go up to 2GB. They have a mediocre intel inegrated graphics of some sort (something 950) but for the price it is fine. I ordered a refurb $1.66ghz Core Duo Mini for $699 and had a $200 Apple Store coupon from their Aperture price reduction rebate, so it ended up being $499. Can't complain about that. :-) (I plan on leaving OS X on it but you could probably run Linux on it as well. I have a Cocoa OS X app I developed that I need to make run on Intel OS X) http://www.apple.com/macmini/ Google should help you find folks running Linux on them and how they did it. best Chad Thank you for the heads up. Jerry -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list --- Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Your Web App and Email hosting provider chad at shire.net -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: Yes, the mini was upgraded a few months ago. $599 gives you a 1.5ghz Core Solo, 512mb, etc and $799 gives you a 1.66ghz Core Solo, 512mb, That would be the Duo ;) etc. You can go up to 2GB. They have a mediocre intel inegrated graphics of some sort (something 950) but for the price it is fine. I ordered a refurb $1.66ghz Core Duo Mini for $699 and had a $200 Apple Store coupon from their Aperture price reduction rebate, so it ended up being $499. Can't complain about that. :-) (I plan on leaving OS X on it but you could probably run Linux on it as well. I have a Cocoa OS X app I developed that I need to make run on Intel OS X) Where can you find the refurbs? That sounds like a very good deal. Did it come with a 5200 RPM SATA drive? I have one of those in my laptop and they are pretty speedy. Not as fast as my 7200 RPM SATA II, but much, much better than the old 4200 IDE laptop drives. http://www.apple.com/macmini/ Google should help you find folks running Linux on them and how they did it. best Chad Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On May 21, 2006, at 6:50 PM, JimD wrote: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: Yes, the mini was upgraded a few months ago. $599 gives you a 1.5ghz Core Solo, 512mb, etc and $799 gives you a 1.66ghz Core Solo, 512mb, That would be the Duo ;) Yes, sorry. etc. You can go up to 2GB. They have a mediocre intel inegrated graphics of some sort (something 950) but for the price it is fine. I ordered a refurb $1.66ghz Core Duo Mini for $699 and had a $200 Apple Store coupon from their Aperture price reduction rebate, so it ended up being $499. Can't complain about that. :-) (I plan on leaving OS X on it but you could probably run Linux on it as well. I have a Cocoa OS X app I developed that I need to make run on Intel OS X) Where can you find the refurbs? Go to the Apple Store online and in the right most column about 2/3rds of the way down is a bright red sale tag that says SAVE. Click on that :-) That sounds like a very good deal. Did it come with a 5200 RPM SATA drive? The specs page Complete Specifications as seen from the link for the mini below says that it has (the Duo) an 80gb 5400rpm SATA drive I have one of those in my laptop and they are pretty speedy. Not as fast as my 7200 RPM SATA II, but much, much better than the old 4200 IDE laptop drives. http://www.apple.com/macmini/ Google should help you find folks running Linux on them and how they did it. best Chad Jim --- Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Your Web App and Email hosting provider chad at shire.net -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On 5/20/06, Kevin O'Gorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like to be one of the good guys. I'm not always sure what that means in particular cases, so I'm going to ask what I should do here. Opinions welcome. Flames somewhat less so. I got a 30-day trial license for vmware, thinking to replace my aging Win4Lin. It seems to work (thanks to folks on this list). But I notice that now that I've created my VMs, I may not need workstation any more. I could do very well with the player, which is free. I'm using VMware to virtualize my old Win98 that used to run on a predecessor of the current host. On this, I run Quicken and I may decide to run some games as well. I'd just go ahead and buy Workstation except for the ~$200.-- price tag. But somehow it seems more like a $50.00 item for what I'm doing with it. I just feel a bit cheap using and ditching a trial version, since I'm definitely getting a benefit from it I could not have gotten otherwise (unless I could prevail on someone else to build the VM for me). On that point, what are the ethics of building VMs for others? What does VMware say about this? -- Kevin O'Gorman, PhD Hi Kevin, VMware configurations and disks can be created manually Windows XP: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2005/10/26/vmware-player-windows-xp.html Linux: http://www.linuxforums.org/applications/using_vmware_player_to_test_linux_distributions.html Even, you can create online version of you VMX file, with VM Builder: http://www.consolevision.com/members/dcgrendel/vmxform.html And then create the disk with qemu-create. Or download empty images and then start the installation in VMware Player: http://www.ffnn.nl/pages/articles/linux/vmware-player-image-creation.php Well, then. If you want to create your own Images, besides all the information above, you *still* can download at no charge, VMware Server and create in the server environment your own VMware images, that can be opened with VMware Player. For me, VMware as a company, is opening for real the virtualization for home and students users. (and testing in office environments) The real business now is in other areas of Virtualization, as VMware ESX Server, and server consolidation. BTW, Microsoft and Virtual PC are free now too...but that's a different story. :) regards Andres -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On May 20, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:I like to be one of the good guys. I'm not always sure what that means in particular cases, so I'm going to ask what I should do here. Opinions welcome. Flames somewhat less so. I got a 30-day trial license for vmware, thinking to replace my aging Win4Lin. It seems to work (thanks to folks on this list). But I notice that now that I've created my VMs, I may not need workstation any more. I could do very well with the player, which is free.I have not used it though I plan on getting the OS X version once my Mac Mini arrives...There is this which fits your budgethttp://www.parallels.com/Chad ---Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLCYour Web App and Email hosting providerchad at shire.net
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
I'd just go ahead and buy Workstation except for the ~$200.-- price tag. But somehow it seems more like a $50.00 item for what I'm doing with it. I just feel a bit cheap using and ditching a trial version, since I'm definitely getting a benefit from it I could not have gotten otherwise (unless I could prevail on someone else to build the VM for me). On that point, what are the ethics of building VMs for others? What does VMware say about this? What you're doing is absolutely legit. You did download the trial version, you don't need it more. You created a VM? Fine. You can use it as much as you like it, I guess. I know there is people distributing VM of free operating systems, so it's perfectly fine to redistribute them to everyone else. They're files, after all. Just output. It wouldn't have been different if you had a program to compose and play music, with a free player and a trial composer. You did compose your For Eliza during the trial, and now you can play it freely. Don't feel in guilt for proprietary software houses. They sure know their business -if you can do what you've done respecting their licenses, fine, it was their choice. If you still feel in guilt, give the money you'd spend on Workstation to the free QEMU project. This way perhaps no one will need a proprietary VMWare Workstation. :D m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Kevin O'Gorman wrote: I'd just go ahead and buy Workstation except for the ~$200.-- price tag. There's also VMware Server, which is available free of charge. Do you need the additional features of VMware Workstation? If not, then just switch to Server. Alexander Skwar -- Do you know the difference between a yankee and a damyankee? A yankee comes south to *_visit*. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Andres Moore wrote: information above, you *still* can download at no charge, VMware Server and create in the server environment your own VMware images, What do you mean with In the server environment? BTW, Microsoft and Virtual PC are free now too...but that's a different story. :) And I suppose that's why VMware Server is available for free. Alexander Skwar -- All Finagle Laws may be bypassed by learning the simple art of doing without thinking. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
Kevin writes: I got a 30-day trial license for vmware, thinking to replace my aging Win4Lin. It seems to work (thanks to folks on this list). But I notice that now that I've created my VMs, I may not need workstation any more. I could do very well with the player, which is free. [...] On that point, what are the ethics of building VMs for others? What does VMware say about this? According to an article I just read in the german computer magazine c't (1/2006, I'm a little behind), VMware knows well about this and tolerates private users getting more out of VMware player this way. Even after the 30-day trial time, the demo version still allows creation of VMs. VMware states that this is not really covered by the license agreement, but they will not take legal acts against. Their plan might be to get more users of VMware, and they think that commertial users will pay the price. There are even sites that create VMs intended to run in the player, like http://www.consolevision.com/members/dcgrendel/vmxform.html or on http://petruska.stardock.net/software/VMware/index.html. Alex -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Ethics of vmware use
On 5/20/06, Alexander Skwar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andres Moore wrote: information above, you *still* can download at no charge, VMware Server and create in the server environment your own VMware images, What do you mean with In the server environment? Well, its was misplaced the server environment thing. I mean, I use VMware Server in a proper server, (SCSI - 4GB ram - Raid1), not on my personal pc. Thats why I writed server environment. BTW, Microsoft and Virtual PC are free now too...but that's a different story. :) And I suppose that's why VMware Server is available for free. Thats more a Microsoft reaction over VMware first decision Alexander Skwar -- All Finagle Laws may be bypassed by learning the simple art of doing without thinking. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
