Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 2018.01.14 13:23, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:01:23 -0500, Jack wrote: > Chromium frequently takes over 24 hours to compile on my system, > although the last two emerges were about 11 hours each. My last > firefox emerge was just under two hours, with the last ten or so all > taking under three and a half hours. Is it swapping? Good call, but only some - I'm pretty sure it's not to the point of thrashing. Even so, with if I had enough RAM to totally avoid swapping, I don't think chromium would drop by a factor of 5 or 6. (I don't generally sit and watch - I generally try to emerge chromium overnight.) However, the few times I've been trying to use the system while chromium compiles, it's been slow, but not totally unresponsive. In addition - I think the huge memory use is only for a small part of the total chromium compile. Jack
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:01:23 -0500, Jack wrote: > Chromium frequently takes over 24 hours to compile on my system, > although the last two emerges were about 11 hours each. My last > firefox emerge was just under two hours, with the last ten or so all > taking under three and a half hours. Is it swapping? -- Neil Bothwick WWW: World Wide Wait pgpAbmiA_kujq.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 2018.01.14 01:51, victor romanchuk wrote: On 01/14/2018 07:17 AM, tu...@posteo.de wrote: Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? Yes it is possible; to achieve that you just have to use www-client/firefox, e.g compile it from source Due to dependencies (now ff is boud with dev-lang/rust which subsequently requires llvm and clang) compilation time is comparable to chromium Chromium frequently takes over 24 hours to compile on my system, although the last two emerges were about 11 hours each. My last firefox emerge was just under two hours, with the last ten or so all taking under three and a half hours. Jack
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
Hello, On Sun, 14 Jan 2018, tu...@posteo.de wrote: >thanks a lot for all the input. > >I disabled pulseaudio via USE flag and recompiled the whole stuff. >And VOILA! : Sound without apulse and pulseaudio! NICE! BTW: I just rechecked, and it doesn't use an integrated copy too, I think: $ cd /usr/lib/firefox $ nm firefox-bin *.so |grep -i pulse|c++filt 021d7060 t mozilla::dom::GamepadHapticActuator::Pulse(double, double, mo 05a62c50 d mozilla::dom::GamepadHapticActuatorBinding::pulse_methodinfo 01edb4e0 t mozilla::dom::GamepadHapticActuatorBinding::pulse_promiseWrap&) 05aa20b0 d mozilla::sCannotInitializePulseAudio 02f1d6a0 t decode_pulses 02f1de00 t encode_pulses 02f31b80 t silk_decode_pulses 02f32660 t silk_encode_pulses 049a1cd4 r silk_max_pulses_table 049a1b60 r silk_pulses_per_block_BITS_Q5 049a1c20 r silk_pulses_per_block_iCDF Using strings similiarly yields e.g.: libpulse.so.0 ,libpulse %s cannot-initialize-pulseaudio MediaCannotInitializePulseAudio Linux PulseAudio is *not* supported => ALSA APIs will be utilized instead and ldd does not show any dep. So at _most_ it might try to dlopen libpulse and if that fails maybe log the above "error". Yay! -dnh -- There is, however, a strange, musty smell in the air that reminds me of something...hmm...yes...I've got it...there's a VMS nearby, or I'm a Blit. -- Larry Wall in Configure from the perl distribution
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 01/14 12:11, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:36:23 +, Mick wrote: > > > With each job taking up to 1.2G of RAM you can quickly exhaust > > available memory on older PCs and swapping can start grinding the box > > to a halt. Since the move to profile 17.0 I found my old laptop comes > > to its knees on compiling larger packages like Chromium. If you also > > find swapping starts thrashing your drive and emerge moves nowhere fast > > as it becomes I/O bound, you should consider reducing the number of > > jobs with MAKEOPTS="-jX" where X is a lesser number than previously > > used and also reducing the --load-average to a low(er) number. > > I have 8GB in this laptop (not expandable) and Chromium is currently > swapping away with -j4. With -j2 it didn't so I'll try -j3 next time. > > You can set it on a per package basis: > > % cat /etc/portage/package.env/chromium > www-client/chromium disk-tmpdir.conf j3.conf > > % cat /etc/portage/env/j3.conf > MAKEOPTS="-j3" > > % cat /etc/portage/env/disk-tmpdir.conf > PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/mnt/scratch" > > The last one is needed because TMPDIR is on a tmpfs normally. > > > -- > Neil Bothwick > > If at first you don't suceed, try the switch marked "Power" Hi, thanks a lot for all the input. I disabled pulseaudio via USE flag and recompiled the whole stuff. And VOILA! : Sound without apulse and pulseaudio! NICE! Cheers! Meino
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:36:23 +, Mick wrote: > With each job taking up to 1.2G of RAM you can quickly exhaust > available memory on older PCs and swapping can start grinding the box > to a halt. Since the move to profile 17.0 I found my old laptop comes > to its knees on compiling larger packages like Chromium. If you also > find swapping starts thrashing your drive and emerge moves nowhere fast > as it becomes I/O bound, you should consider reducing the number of > jobs with MAKEOPTS="-jX" where X is a lesser number than previously > used and also reducing the --load-average to a low(er) number. I have 8GB in this laptop (not expandable) and Chromium is currently swapping away with -j4. With -j2 it didn't so I'll try -j3 next time. You can set it on a per package basis: % cat /etc/portage/package.env/chromium www-client/chromium disk-tmpdir.conf j3.conf % cat /etc/portage/env/j3.conf MAKEOPTS="-j3" % cat /etc/portage/env/disk-tmpdir.conf PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/mnt/scratch" The last one is needed because TMPDIR is on a tmpfs normally. -- Neil Bothwick If at first you don't suceed, try the switch marked "Power" pgp3CKE1VbCIE.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On Sunday, 14 January 2018 05:51:57 GMT tu...@posteo.de wrote: > On 01/13 11:39, Dale wrote: > > tu...@posteo.de wrote: > > > Hi Dale, > > > > > > one problem here is, that I am using firefox-bin, because compiling > > > firefox gave me compile errors in the past. > > > > > > One dependency of firefox-bin ispulseaudio. > > > > > > Currently I am trying to compile firefox and will see how far it > > > goes... > > > > > > Short question: What timezone you are? > > > > > > Cheers > > > Meino > > > > I'm on CST here in the USA. May be around a little longer. Before you > > compile Firefox, make sure of your USE flags. No point compiling that > > monster and then realizing a USE flag is wrong. > > > > I suspect you can make this work with a compiled version. Just a > > feeling. > > > > Dale > > > > :-) :-) > > Hi Dale, > > I am on UTC+1 here... > > Thanks for the USEful :) hint! > Will see how far it goes. Currently rust is compiling and is > periodically > eating all my memory and my box starts swapping... > > This will take a while. > As soon I have further results, I will be back! > > Cheers! > Meino With each job taking up to 1.2G of RAM you can quickly exhaust available memory on older PCs and swapping can start grinding the box to a halt. Since the move to profile 17.0 I found my old laptop comes to its knees on compiling larger packages like Chromium. If you also find swapping starts thrashing your drive and emerge moves nowhere fast as it becomes I/O bound, you should consider reducing the number of jobs with MAKEOPTS="-jX" where X is a lesser number than previously used and also reducing the --load-average to a low(er) number. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
Hello, On Sun, 14 Jan 2018, tu...@posteo.de wrote: >Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? >If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? Just compile with USE="-pulseaudio". Apparently, since 57.x, FF can be built directly against alsa again. I have neither apulse nor pulseaudio installed and audio e.g. on youtube "just works". HTH, -dnh -- PC's are designed by a committee of people who are in different companies in different countries and who never talk to each other. -- Derick Siddoway And nobody speaks the same language and they hate each other... -- Chris Adams
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 01/14/2018 07:17 AM, tu...@posteo.de wrote: > Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? > If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? Yes it is possible; to achieve that you just have to use www-client/firefox, e.g compile it from source Due to dependencies (now ff is boud with dev-lang/rust which subsequently requires llvm and clang) compilation time is comparable to chromium
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 01/13 11:39, Dale wrote: > tu...@posteo.de wrote: > > Hi Dale, > > > > one problem here is, that I am using firefox-bin, because compiling > > firefox gave me compile errors in the past. > > > > One dependency of firefox-bin ispulseaudio. > > > > Currently I am trying to compile firefox and will see how far it > > goes... > > > > Short question: What timezone you are? > > > > Cheers > > Meino > > > > I'm on CST here in the USA. May be around a little longer. Before you > compile Firefox, make sure of your USE flags. No point compiling that > monster and then realizing a USE flag is wrong. > > I suspect you can make this work with a compiled version. Just a feeling. > > Dale > > :-) :-) > Hi Dale, I am on UTC+1 here... Thanks for the USEful :) hint! Will see how far it goes. Currently rust is compiling and is periodically eating all my memory and my box starts swapping... This will take a while. As soon I have further results, I will be back! Cheers! Meino
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
tu...@posteo.de wrote: > Hi Dale, > > one problem here is, that I am using firefox-bin, because compiling > firefox gave me compile errors in the past. > > One dependency of firefox-bin ispulseaudio. > > Currently I am trying to compile firefox and will see how far it > goes... > > Short question: What timezone you are? > > Cheers > Meino > I'm on CST here in the USA. May be around a little longer. Before you compile Firefox, make sure of your USE flags. No point compiling that monster and then realizing a USE flag is wrong. I suspect you can make this work with a compiled version. Just a feeling. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 01/13 11:19, Dale wrote: > tu...@posteo.de wrote: > > On 01/13 10:29, Dale wrote: > >> tu...@posteo.de wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? > >>> If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? > >>> > >>> Thanks a lot for any help in advance! > >>> > >>> Cheers! > >>> Meino > >>> > >> I found this. > >> > >> https://codelab.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/firefox-drops-alsa-apulse-to-the-rescue/ > >> > >> > >> I read a bit and it may be interesting or may not but it seems to have > >> some sort of solution. If it doesn't, my Firefox is likely to be quiet, > >> whether it wants to or not. Then again, Palemoon may be a option if I > >> can get some addons to work. > >> > >> Let's hope that helps, both of us. :/ > >> > >> Dale > >> > >> :-) :-) > >> > > Hi Dale, > > > > thanks for the informations! > > > > I tried Palemoon some time ago. I checked its security and privacy > > feature with certain sites on the internet, which provide such > > services and found some issues, which I wanted to discuss on their > > forum. The answer was not to believe such sites and in result security > > would be a matter of how much I believe in a certain software. My > > understanding is, that security is no believe system but a matter of > > well done software engineering. Therefore I quit Palemoon and I am no > > longer interested in it. > > > > I looked into the linked page and interestingly the solution suggested > > is exactlu what makes me headaches now: I have a blocker: > > > > * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be > > * installed at the same time on the same system. > > > > (media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.1.5:0/0::gentoo, installed) pulled in by > > > > >=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?] > > (>=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_64(-)]) > > required by (media-sound/pulseaudio-11.1:0/0::gentoo, installed) > > media-plugins/alsa-plugins required by @selected > > > > (media-sound/apulse-0.1.10:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) > > pulled in by > > media-sound/apulse required by > > (www-client/firefox-bin-57.0.4-r1:0/0::gentoo, installed) > > > > > > ...and apulse is one of it. > > > > How can I get out of it? > > > > Cheers > > Meino > > > > I'm still on the older Firefox but I get this here: > > > root@fireball / # emerge -av apulse > > These are the packages that would be merged, in order: > > Calculating dependencies... done! > [ebuild N ] media-sound/apulse-0.1.10::gentoo ABI_X86="(64) -32 > (-x32)" 108 KiB > > Total: 1 package (1 new), Size of downloads: 108 KiB > > Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] n > > > If you are already on the newer Firefox, which I guess you are, then > that may be what makes it block things. So, I tried this: > > > root@fireball / # emerge -av apulse firefox > > These are the packages that would be merged, in order: > > > Calculating dependencies... done! > [ebuild N ] media-sound/apulse-0.1.10::gentoo ABI_X86="(64) -32 > (-x32)" 108 KiB > [ebuild R ~] www-client/firefox-56.0::x-portage [56.0::gentoo] > USE="dbus gmp-autoupdate nsplugin startup-notification system-harfbuzz > system-jpeg system-libevent system-libvpx system-sqlite -bindist > -custom-cflags -custom-optimization -debug -eme-free -hardened -hwaccel > -jack (-neon) -pgo -pulseaudio (-selinux) -system-icu {-test} -wifi" > L10N="-ach -af -an -ar -as -ast -az -bg -bn-BD -bn-IN -br -bs -ca -cak > -cs -cy -da -de -dsb -el -en-GB -en-ZA -eo -es-AR -es-CL -es-ES -es-MX > -et -eu -fa -ff -fi -fr -fy -ga -gd -gl -gn -gu -he -hi -hr -hsb -hu -hy > -id -is -it -ja -ka -kab -kk -km -kn -ko -lij -lt -lv -mai -mk -ml -mr > -ms -nb -nl -nn -or -pa -pl -pt-BR -pt-PT -rm -ro -ru -si -sk -sl -son > -sq -sr -sv -ta -te -th -tr -uk -uz -vi -xh -zh-CN -zh-TW" 249,404 KiB > > Total: 2 packages (1 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 249,512 KiB > > Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] > > > For some reason, it likes the idea. So, differences between us. I > notice you are on a newer version of alsa than I am. Here's mine: > > > [IP-] [ ] media-libs/alsa-lib-1.1.2:0 > [IP-] [ ] media-sound/alsa-utils-1.1.2:0.9 > > > Could it be that it doesn't like the newer version of alsa, yet at > least? Possible. > > Does that help any? Could you drop to that lower version of alsa and > see if it helps or is there a needed fix for you in that newer version? > > Dale > > :-) :-) > > P. S. Keep in mind, I'd like to get this to work here too later on. ;-) > Hi Dale, one problem here is, that I am using firefox-bin, because compiling firefox gave me compile errors in the past. One dependency of firefox-bin ispulseaudio. Currently I am trying to compile firefox and will see how far i
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
tu...@posteo.de wrote: > On 01/13 10:29, Dale wrote: >> tu...@posteo.de wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? >>> If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? >>> >>> Thanks a lot for any help in advance! >>> >>> Cheers! >>> Meino >>> >> I found this. >> >> https://codelab.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/firefox-drops-alsa-apulse-to-the-rescue/ >> >> >> I read a bit and it may be interesting or may not but it seems to have >> some sort of solution. If it doesn't, my Firefox is likely to be quiet, >> whether it wants to or not. Then again, Palemoon may be a option if I >> can get some addons to work. >> >> Let's hope that helps, both of us. :/ >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) >> > Hi Dale, > > thanks for the informations! > > I tried Palemoon some time ago. I checked its security and privacy > feature with certain sites on the internet, which provide such > services and found some issues, which I wanted to discuss on their > forum. The answer was not to believe such sites and in result security > would be a matter of how much I believe in a certain software. My > understanding is, that security is no believe system but a matter of > well done software engineering. Therefore I quit Palemoon and I am no > longer interested in it. > > I looked into the linked page and interestingly the solution suggested > is exactlu what makes me headaches now: I have a blocker: > > * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be > * installed at the same time on the same system. > > (media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.1.5:0/0::gentoo, installed) pulled in by > > >=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?] > (>=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_64(-)]) required > by (media-sound/pulseaudio-11.1:0/0::gentoo, installed) > media-plugins/alsa-plugins required by @selected > > (media-sound/apulse-0.1.10:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled > in by > media-sound/apulse required by > (www-client/firefox-bin-57.0.4-r1:0/0::gentoo, installed) > > > ...and apulse is one of it. > > How can I get out of it? > > Cheers > Meino > I'm still on the older Firefox but I get this here: root@fireball / # emerge -av apulse These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies... done! [ebuild N ] media-sound/apulse-0.1.10::gentoo ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 108 KiB Total: 1 package (1 new), Size of downloads: 108 KiB Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] n If you are already on the newer Firefox, which I guess you are, then that may be what makes it block things. So, I tried this: root@fireball / # emerge -av apulse firefox These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies... done! [ebuild N ] media-sound/apulse-0.1.10::gentoo ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 108 KiB [ebuild R ~] www-client/firefox-56.0::x-portage [56.0::gentoo] USE="dbus gmp-autoupdate nsplugin startup-notification system-harfbuzz system-jpeg system-libevent system-libvpx system-sqlite -bindist -custom-cflags -custom-optimization -debug -eme-free -hardened -hwaccel -jack (-neon) -pgo -pulseaudio (-selinux) -system-icu {-test} -wifi" L10N="-ach -af -an -ar -as -ast -az -bg -bn-BD -bn-IN -br -bs -ca -cak -cs -cy -da -de -dsb -el -en-GB -en-ZA -eo -es-AR -es-CL -es-ES -es-MX -et -eu -fa -ff -fi -fr -fy -ga -gd -gl -gn -gu -he -hi -hr -hsb -hu -hy -id -is -it -ja -ka -kab -kk -km -kn -ko -lij -lt -lv -mai -mk -ml -mr -ms -nb -nl -nn -or -pa -pl -pt-BR -pt-PT -rm -ro -ru -si -sk -sl -son -sq -sr -sv -ta -te -th -tr -uk -uz -vi -xh -zh-CN -zh-TW" 249,404 KiB Total: 2 packages (1 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 249,512 KiB Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] For some reason, it likes the idea. So, differences between us. I notice you are on a newer version of alsa than I am. Here's mine: [IP-] [ ] media-libs/alsa-lib-1.1.2:0 [IP-] [ ] media-sound/alsa-utils-1.1.2:0.9 Could it be that it doesn't like the newer version of alsa, yet at least? Possible. Does that help any? Could you drop to that lower version of alsa and see if it helps or is there a needed fix for you in that newer version? Dale :-) :-) P. S. Keep in mind, I'd like to get this to work here too later on. ;-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
On 01/13 10:29, Dale wrote: > tu...@posteo.de wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? > > If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? > > > > Thanks a lot for any help in advance! > > > > Cheers! > > Meino > > > > I found this. > > https://codelab.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/firefox-drops-alsa-apulse-to-the-rescue/ > > > I read a bit and it may be interesting or may not but it seems to have > some sort of solution. If it doesn't, my Firefox is likely to be quiet, > whether it wants to or not. Then again, Palemoon may be a option if I > can get some addons to work. > > Let's hope that helps, both of us. :/ > > Dale > > :-) :-) > Hi Dale, thanks for the informations! I tried Palemoon some time ago. I checked its security and privacy feature with certain sites on the internet, which provide such services and found some issues, which I wanted to discuss on their forum. The answer was not to believe such sites and in result security would be a matter of how much I believe in a certain software. My understanding is, that security is no believe system but a matter of well done software engineering. Therefore I quit Palemoon and I am no longer interested in it. I looked into the linked page and interestingly the solution suggested is exactlu what makes me headaches now: I have a blocker: * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be * installed at the same time on the same system. (media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.1.5:0/0::gentoo, installed) pulled in by >=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?] (>=media-plugins/alsa-plugins-1.0.27-r1[pulseaudio,abi_x86_64(-)]) required by (media-sound/pulseaudio-11.1:0/0::gentoo, installed) media-plugins/alsa-plugins required by @selected (media-sound/apulse-0.1.10:0/0::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by media-sound/apulse required by (www-client/firefox-bin-57.0.4-r1:0/0::gentoo, installed) ...and apulse is one of it. How can I get out of it? Cheers Meino
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
tu...@posteo.de wrote: > Hi, > > Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? > If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? > > Thanks a lot for any help in advance! > > Cheers! > Meino > Sorry, I meant to paste this in too. root@fireball / # eix apulse * media-sound/apulse Available versions: 0.1.10 {ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"} Homepage: https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse Description: PulseAudio emulation for ALSA root@fireball / # Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 57.0.4 without pulseaudio? Possible?
tu...@posteo.de wrote: > Hi, > > Is it posible to use Firefox wihout pulseaudio installed? > If "yes" -- how can I acchieche this? > > Thanks a lot for any help in advance! > > Cheers! > Meino > I found this. https://codelab.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/firefox-drops-alsa-apulse-to-the-rescue/ I read a bit and it may be interesting or may not but it seems to have some sort of solution. If it doesn't, my Firefox is likely to be quiet, whether it wants to or not. Then again, Palemoon may be a option if I can get some addons to work. Let's hope that helps, both of us. :/ Dale :-) :-)