Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:45:49 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 13:05:20 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > Hmm ... according to Wikipedia it was conceived in the 19th century,
> > > > well before the World Wars.  Canada was the first place where DST
> > > > was introduced, in Ontario only.  Tis true nevertheless that the
> > > > German Empire introduced it during the Great War to conserve coal,
> > > > 5 years later.
> > > 
> > > I didn't know about the Canadian usage, only the wartime usage.
> > 
> > I've always understood it was to give farmers more evening daylight to
> > work in the fields and to get the harvest in. School summer breaks were
> > long so that the children could go out with them to help.
> 
> The farmers are against it as it gives less daylight in the early hours
> for milking etc.

Perhaps so, now, but a hundred years ago they didn't have powerful 
floodlights on their tractors to enable them to keep working after dark. It 
was a case of all-hands-to-the-harvest until they just couldn't see any 
more.

> Maybe they need a way to enable DST in the cows' cron so they want milking
> an hour later.


-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 13:05:20 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > > 
> > > Hmm ... according to Wikipedia it was conceived in the 19th century,
> > > well before the World Wars.  Canada was the first place where DST
> > > was introduced, in Ontario only.  Tis true nevertheless that the
> > > German Empire introduced it during the Great War to conserve coal,
> > > 5 years later.  
> > 
> > I didn't know about the Canadian usage, only the wartime usage.  
> 
> I've always understood it was to give farmers more evening daylight to
> work in the fields and to get the harvest in. School summer breaks were
> long so that the children could go out with them to help.

The farmers are against it as it gives less daylight in the early hours
for milking etc. Maybe they need a way to enable DST in the cows' cron so
they want milking an hour later.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 24: New classic


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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:33:53 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 12:25:07 +, Mick wrote:
> > > Although it was actually introduce, first by Germany then by Britain,
> > > in 1915 to improve productivity for the war effort. Britain also
> > > introduced licencing hours at the same time to avoid workers turning
> > > up hungover.
> > 
> > Hmm ... according to Wikipedia it was conceived in the 19th century,
> > well before the World Wars.  Canada was the first place where DST was
> > introduced, in Ontario only.  Tis true nevertheless that the German
> > Empire introduced it during the Great War to conserve coal, 5 years
> > later.
> 
> I didn't know about the Canadian usage, only the wartime usage.

I've always understood it was to give farmers more evening daylight to work 
in the fields and to get the harvest in. School summer breaks were long so 
that the children could go out with them to help.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 12:25:07 +, Mick wrote:

> > Although it was actually introduce, first by Germany then by Britain,
> > in 1915 to improve productivity for the war effort. Britain also
> > introduced licencing hours at the same time to avoid workers turning
> > up hungover.  
> 
> Hmm ... according to Wikipedia it was conceived in the 19th century,
> well before the World Wars.  Canada was the first place where DST was
> introduced, in Ontario only.  Tis true nevertheless that the German
> Empire introduced it during the Great War to conserve coal, 5 years
> later.

I didn't know about the Canadian usage, only the wartime usage.

-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 36: Alone together


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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Mick]

On Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:06:28 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 11:51:33 +, Mick wrote:
> > > >   That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him
> > > > 
> > > > the
> > > > 
> > > > "advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.
> > > 
> > > Yes. Which, of course it doesn't. Save anything, I mean.
> > 
> > It 'saves' the socio-economic model whereby aggressively promoted
> > consumerism attempts to secure a continuation of artificially enhanced
> > cross-border trade, at ever increasing rates.
> 
> Although it was actually introduce, first by Germany then by Britain, in
> 1915 to improve productivity for the war effort. Britain also introduced
> licencing hours at the same time to avoid workers turning up hungover.

Hmm ... according to Wikipedia it was conceived in the 19th century, well 
before the World Wars.  Canada was the first place where DST was introduced, 
in Ontario only.  Tis true nevertheless that the German Empire introduced it 
during the Great War to conserve coal, 5 years later.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 11:51:33 +, Mick wrote:

> > >   That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him
> > > the
> > > 
> > > "advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.  
> > 
> > Yes. Which, of course it doesn't. Save anything, I mean.  
> 
> It 'saves' the socio-economic model whereby aggressively promoted
> consumerism attempts to secure a continuation of artificially enhanced
> cross-border trade, at ever increasing rates.

Although it was actually introduce, first by Germany then by Britain, in
1915 to improve productivity for the war effort. Britain also introduced
licencing hours at the same time to avoid workers turning up hungover.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What you don't know can hurt you, only you won't know it.


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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Mick]

On Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:18:36 GMT Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Sunday, 7 January 2018 01:46:00 GMT Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 09:50:59PM +, Peter Humphrey wrote
> > 
> > > On Saturday, 6 January 2018 18:34:36 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > > > grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> > > > > > linguas_en - English locale
> > > > > > linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> > > > > > linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> > > > > > linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> > > > > > linguas_en_US - English locale
> > > > > 
> > > > > I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in
> > > > > England;
> > > > > I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version
> > > > > of
> > > > > it, adapted from the original.
> > > > 
> > > > Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.
> > > > 
> > > > I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used
> > > > to
> > > > say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)
> > > 
> > > Then there's that old one about the Native American chief who observed
> > > that only a white man could think that cutting a foot off the bottom of
> > > a blanket and sewing it onto the top would give him a longer blanket.
> > > 
> >   That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him the
> > 
> > "advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.
> 
> Yes. Which, of course it doesn't. Save anything, I mean.

It 'saves' the socio-economic model whereby aggressively promoted consumerism 
attempts to secure a continuation of artificially enhanced cross-border trade, 
at ever increasing rates.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 11:18:36 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > > Then there's that old one about the Native American chief who
> > > observed that only a white man could think that cutting a foot off
> > > the bottom of a blanket and sewing it onto the top would give him a
> > > longer blanket.  
> > 
> >   That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him the
> > "advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.  
> 
> Yes. Which, of course it doesn't. Save anything, I mean.

Daylight Shifting Time would be a better description, but I think we all
get the idea now - it's to give us an extra hour in bed once a year.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

You couldn't get a job as a firing squad target.


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Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday, 7 January 2018 01:46:00 GMT Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 09:50:59PM +, Peter Humphrey wrote
> 
> > On Saturday, 6 January 2018 18:34:36 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > > grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> > > > > linguas_en - English locale
> > > > > linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> > > > > linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> > > > > linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> > > > > linguas_en_US - English locale
> > > > 
> > > > I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in
> > > > England;
> > > > I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version
> > > > of
> > > > it, adapted from the original.
> > > 
> > > Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.
> > > 
> > > I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used
> > > to
> > > say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)
> > 
> > Then there's that old one about the Native American chief who observed
> > that only a white man could think that cutting a foot off the bottom of
> > a blanket and sewing it onto the top would give him a longer blanket.
> 
>   That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him the
> "advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.

Yes. Which, of course it doesn't. Save anything, I mean.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 09:50:59PM +, Peter Humphrey wrote
> On Saturday, 6 January 2018 18:34:36 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> > > > linguas_en - English locale
> > > > linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> > > > linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> > > > linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> > > > linguas_en_US - English locale
> > > 
> > > I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England;
> > > I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of
> > > it, adapted from the original.
> > 
> > Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.
> > 
> > I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used to
> > say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)
> 
> Then there's that old one about the Native American chief who observed that 
> only a white man could think that cutting a foot off the bottom of a blanket 
> and sewing it onto the top would give him a longer blanket.

  That was apparently after the white man tried to explain to him the
"advantages" of Daylight Saving Time.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

[OT] Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 18:34:36 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> > > linguas_en - English locale
> > > linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> > > linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> > > linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> > > linguas_en_US - English locale
> > 
> > I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England;
> > I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of
> > it, adapted from the original.
> 
> Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.
> 
> I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used to
> say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)

Then there's that old one about the Native American chief who observed that 
only a white man could think that cutting a foot off the bottom of a blanket 
and sewing it onto the top would give him a longer blanket.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 17:33:22 GMT Mike Gilbert wrote:

> I updated the description for en_US.
> 
> linguas_en - English locale
> linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> linguas_en_US - English locale for America

Decent of you. Thanks Mike.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[allan gottlieb]

On Sat, Jan 06 2018, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>
>> I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England;
>> I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of
>> it, adapted from the original.
>
> Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.
>
> I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used to
> say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)

Terrific--made my day.
allan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 16:00:14 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> > linguas_en - English locale
> > linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> > linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> > linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> > linguas_en_US - English locale  
> 
> I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England;
> I speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of
> it, adapted from the original.

Indeed, en_US is a fork of the original.

I guess that's why, in the old cowboy films, the native Americans used to
say "white man speak with forked tongue" ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 01E: Timing error - Please wait. And wait. And wait. And wait.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Mike Gilbert]

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Peter Humphrey  wrote:
> On Saturday, 6 January 2018 15:50:56 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 15:39:45 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>> > > Ahem! American "English", I think you mean.
>> >
>> > Yes, though for most programs [spell-checkers being the obvious
>> > exception] and most non-US English speakers who expected en_GB, I
>> > doubt they'd have any problems using programs that were speaking US
>> > English instead of British English (are there others in use besides
>> > en_GB?).
>>
>> Indeed there are, there's a whole world out there beyond the borders of
>> the USA ;-)
>>
>> grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
>> linguas_en - English locale
>> linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
>> linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
>> linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
>> linguas_en_US - English locale
>
> I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England; I
> speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of it,
> adapted from the original. The list should be:
>
> linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> linguas_en_GB - English locale
> linguas_en_US - English locale for USA

I updated the description for en_US.

linguas_en - English locale
linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
linguas_en_US - English locale for America

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 15:50:56 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 15:39:45 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
> > > Ahem! American "English", I think you mean.
> > 
> > Yes, though for most programs [spell-checkers being the obvious
> > exception] and most non-US English speakers who expected en_GB, I
> > doubt they'd have any problems using programs that were speaking US
> > English instead of British English (are there others in use besides
> > en_GB?).
> 
> Indeed there are, there's a whole world out there beyond the borders of
> the USA ;-)
> 
> grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
> linguas_en - English locale
> linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
> linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
> linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
> linguas_en_US - English locale

I object to that (not you, Neil, some dev or other). I live in England; I 
speak English. People who live in America speak their own version of it, 
adapted from the original. The list should be:

linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
linguas_en_GB - English locale
linguas_en_US - English locale for USA

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 15:39:45 GMT Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2018-01-06, Peter Humphrey  wrote:
> > On Friday, 5 January 2018 20:19:19 GMT Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> It looks like most of the other broken packages just get rebuilt with
> >> no languages supported (which means they probably still work for an
> >> english speaker).
> > 
> > Ahem! American "English", I think you mean.
> 
> Yes, though for most programs [spell-checkers being the obvious
> exception] and most non-US English speakers who expected en_GB, I
> doubt they'd have any problems using programs that were speaking US
> English instead of British English (are there others in use besides
> en_GB?).
> 
> --
> Grant

Well, KMail knows about Australian, Canadian and South African. It may 
inherit those from Plasma, or it may know about them itself. That's still 
just about spell-checking, though.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 15:39:45 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > Ahem! American "English", I think you mean.  
> 
> Yes, though for most programs [spell-checkers being the obvious
> exception] and most non-US English speakers who expected en_GB, I
> doubt they'd have any problems using programs that were speaking US
> English instead of British English (are there others in use besides
> en_GB?).

Indeed there are, there's a whole world out there beyond the borders of
the USA ;-)

grep linguas_en /var/portage/profiles/use.desc
linguas_en - English locale
linguas_en_AU - English locale for Australia
linguas_en_CA - English locale for Canada
linguas_en_GB - English locale for Britain
linguas_en_US - English locale


-- 
Neil Bothwick

All generalizations are false, including this one.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 5 January 2018 20:19:19 GMT Grant Edwards wrote:

> It looks like most of the other broken packages just get rebuilt with
> no languages supported (which means they probably still work for an
> english speaker).

Ahem! American "English", I think you mean.

> I suspect that at some point, the only way you can get people to fix
> the last handful of packages is to force the issue by implementing the
> change that causes them to fail/misbehave.


-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS make.conf variable being ignored?

[Dale]

On 01/05/2018 02:02 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2018-01-05, Grant Edwards  wrote:

On 2018-01-05, Grant Edwards  wrote:


Is this related:

https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2016-06-23-l10n-use_expand.html


I don't know.  I read that news item and followed its instructions at
the time.  My make conf contains:

LINGUAS="en en_US"
L10N="en en-US"


Most recent thread here:

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/29b00839ba5be715d883412011d8a421


That sounds supicious, but I set L10N as I was supposed to.

Still, it looks like there are at least 9 packages on my system
installed which are now broken due to linguas_XX USE flag problems.


Apparently, even though there are still plenty of packages that aren't
ready for the removal LINGUAS as an expanded USE variable, they went
ahead and did it.

For example, the first one I ran into was iso-codes:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/643594

Hopefully the others will also get fixed soon.

It's surprising that something as common as cups got broken.


Apparently, cups's LINGUAS brokeness was reported almost two years
ago, but hasn't been fixed yet:

   https://bugs.gentoo.org/574318

It looks like aspell was just fixed a couple hours ago:

   
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/commit/?id=28feeb4139bfc6d45b8f1353ba167a5757b1c0ea

I think I'll wait a week or two before attempting to update any other
machines...




Yea, sometimes people think everything is ready when some are not.  One 
would think the more used packages would be noticed tho.  Guess not.


That was the only change I recall reading about so I thought it worth a 
mention, just in case it was the cause.


Dale

:-)  :-)