Re: [HCA-list] Re: [geo] Solar geoengineering: The case for an international non-use agreement

[olivier boucher]

Hello, 
a couple more papers on our side on regional SRM: 
- Quaas, J., Quaas, M.F., Boucher, O. and Rickels, W. (2016), Regional climate 
engineering by radiation management: Prerequisites and prospects. Earth's 
Future, 4: 618-625. [ https://doi.org/10.1002/2016EF000440 | 
https://doi.org/10.1002/2016EF000440 ] 
- Dipu, Sudhakar, Johannes Quaas, Martin Quaas, Wilfried Rickels, Johannes 
Mülmenstädt, and Olivier Boucher. 2021. "Substantial Climate Response outside 
the Target Area in an Idealized Experiment of Regional Radiation Management" 
Climate 9, no. 4: 66. [ https://doi.org/10.3390/cli9040066 | 
https://doi.org/10.3390/cli9040066 ] 
Maybe regional radiation management works better in some regions than in 
others. Where we tried, however, it wasn't so obvious that it would work. One 
has to hit the system quite hard to get a significant regional response. 
Best, 
Olivier 


De: "Mike MacCracken"  
À: rpbai...@gmail.com, "Clive Elsworth"  
Cc: "Daphne Wysham" , "H simmens" 
, "John Nissen" , "Robert Tulip" 
, "geoengineering" , 
"Planetary Restoration" , "Shaun 
Fitzgerald" , "Hugh.Hunt" , 
"healthy-planet-action-coalition" 
, "Andrew Lockley" 
 
Envoyé: Dimanche 30 Janvier 2022 16:45:18 
Objet: Re: [HCA-list] Re: [geo] Solar geoengineering: The case for an 
international non-use agreement 



And studies/analyses I've done a good bit back suggest the same thing. See 

MacCracken, M. C., H-J. Shin, K. Caldeira, and G. Ban-Weiss, 2013: Climate 
response to solar insolation reductions in high latitudes, Earth Systems 
Dynamics , 4 , 301-315, 2013; [ http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/4/301/2013/ | 
www.earth-syst-dynam.net/4/301/2013/ ] ; doi:10.5194/esd-4-301-2013. 







MacCracken, M. C., 2016: The rationale for accelerating regionally focused 
climate intervention research, Earth’s Future 4 , 649-657, 
doi:10.1002/2016EF000450. 




Glad to hear of recent work in this area. 

Mike 



On 1/29/22 9:11 PM, Ron Baiman wrote: 



Follow Up to Clive's post: The folks at Cornell U. are apparently leaning in 
this direction: regional SAI for the Arctic where the Tropopause is lower, 
during the early summer or late spring - as I recall - months. Their climate 
models suggest that this is more efficient than uniform year around global SAI, 
and it could be less of a lift politically - though for balance this might have 
to be done at the south pole as well. Walker Lee discusses this in this podcast 
with Andrew Lockley: [ https://open.spotify.com/episode/2HVbDS3tp4sHruZ79kTfup 
| https://open.spotify.com/episode/2HVbDS3tp4sHruZ79kTfup ] 
Best, 
Ron 


On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 2:51 PM Clive Elsworth < [ 
mailto:cl...@endorphinsoftware.co.uk | cl...@endorphinsoftware.co.uk ] > wrote: 

BQ_BEGIN

Daphne 

My intention was not to associate ‘moral hazard versus moral imperative’ with 
stratospheric aerosol injection (SAI), but rather to highlight it as a usefully 
succinct way to describe a common dilemma. It could apply just as well to the 
dilemma faced by border forces. Should they save poor souls from perishing in 
the desert or drowning at sea, or leave them to die to dissuade others from 
making the same trip? (Note that I’m not trying to associate you with that 
either.) 

SAI is more complex because it involves physical hazard as well. The addition 
of solid particles into the ozone layer provides increased surface area for 
catalytic release of halogens that then go on to deplete ozone. 

That is why Franz and I hope that if it really must be done then it will be 
applied below the stratosphere in the Arctic during summer months only. The 
downward flow of air from Brewer Dobson circulation should bring the particles 
down to sea level with minimal amounts entering the stratosphere. 

Clive 

BQ_BEGIN

On 29/01/2022 02:24 Daphne Wysham < [ mailto:dap...@methaneaction.org | 
dap...@methaneaction.org ] > wrote: 


Greetings. 

I don't follow this list closely, but I do want to make sure that my quote, 
which was taken out of context, not be misconstrued as having anything to do 
with SRM, which I know very little about and am, frankly, quite uneasy about. 
In this quote which Clive shared from one of our methane group meetings, I was 
referring to methane removal, not SRM, when I said we have a moral obligation 
to act on rapidly rising methane levels in the atmosphere, while acknowledging 
that there is a moral hazard we also must admit to in including methane removal 
in the mix. 

My feeling is that the moral obligation to ensure methane removal is part of 
the mix, if acted on with good governance, social license, and integrity, would 
weaken the moral hazard critique. We must be mindful of and avoid all moral 
hazards, but the moral obligation to act on methane removal while there is 
still time is greater than the moral hazard in my mind. This is something Bill 
McKibben touched on much more cogently in his piece [ 

[geo] Podcast List January

[Geoeng Info]

Hello!

Here is a list of recent podcasts on the topics of Geoengineering.

Hope you enjoy it!


*Arctic SAI - Walker Lee*
by Reviewer2DoesGeoengineering

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2HVbDS3tp4sHruZ79kTfup

The Cornell Mafia are taking over the Arctic. Walker Lee explains how their
high-latitude, low-altitude scheme works. It's an offer you can't refuse.


*International Non-use Agreement - Cooper & Futerman*
by Reviewer2DoesGeoengineering

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7f5Xngrai0t1bQ0BTzlFmx

Aaron Cooper @AMCooper86 and Gideon Futerman @GFuterman discuss the
International Non-Use Agreement on Solar Geoengineering letter from
https://www.solargeoeng.org/ @SolarGeoeng


*A defence of SRM - Irvine*
by Reviewer2DoesGeoengineering

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1aDsx9xbuYcZYJMbQdJhZf

Pete Irvine is a stalwart of SRM. Here, he makes the case for its continued
consideration as a policy option. This comes at a time when ongoing
research on SRM is being subject to one of its most determined challenges
yet.


*Geoengineering, the gamble - Wagner*
by Reviewer2DoesGeoengineering

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6eWrgXLiJMnBSIGXRJIJhW

Gernot Wagner talks about genocide, death threats, and the corruption of
academia. He's not a man you want to mess with. So, when he tries to sell
you his book, you're going to do exactly as you're told. Understand?



*C2GTalk: How can fiction help people think about solar radiation
modification? with Eliot Peper*
by Carnegie Council Audio Podcast

https://www.c2g2.net/how-can-fiction-help-people-think-about-solar-radiation-modification/

When author Eliot Peper first heard about solar geoengineering, or solar
radiation modification, he knew he had to write a novel. “There are so many
different angles on this kind of a problem. It raises so many questions
that impact every area of our lives,” he told C2GTalk. Speculative fiction,
says Peper, can spark people’s curiosity and inspire them to become
engaged. “If it makes other people look more deeply and pay more attention,
to me that’s a huge win.”


*C2GDiscuss: Governing Solar Radiation Modification Research: Insights from
Marine Cloud Brightening and the Great Barrier Reef*
by Carnegie Council Audio Podcast

https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/studio/multimedia/20220118-c2g-discuss-govering-solar-radiation-modificaiton-great-barrier-reef

In response to climate change risks, scientists are considering the
viability of developing and deploying marine cloud brightening (MCB), which
seeks to whiten clouds over the ocean to reflect solar radiation back into
space in order to achieve cooling. MCB is still largely theoretical, but if
ever deployed at scale, could create large and potentially long-term risks
and governance challenges.

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[geo] Re: Marine Cloud Brightening

[Michael MacCracken]

Hi Clive--

Because the Sun is only up in the Arctic for a few months during the 
year, there is no need to have the aerosol stay up through the whole 
year--and in the winter the stratosphere gets so cold that the particles 
contribute to ozone depletion, so one does not want to be increasing the 
particle concentrations in winter. But doing so in the spring (probably 
only needed in the months after the surface snow starts to melt) and 
early summer when sunlight is strong, has the potential to increase the 
albedo.


And yes, in the troposphere, particles are primarily removed by 
precipitation, but that really is only mainly occurring where there is 
convection, and for convection to occur, the surface has to be quite 
warm adn the atmosphere unstable. While that occurs in lower latitudes, 
in the Arctic as it comes out of winter, convection is not normally 
occurring, so particles injected there into the upper troposphere, 
assuming the circulation does not take them out of the region (and 
predictions of this could be used to determine when and where it would 
be optimal to make or not make an aerosol injection), won't get removed 
by precipitation (coalesence and condensation of water vapor might lead 
to particles growing so large they fall out of the atmosphere, but that 
is generally a slow process and so the lifetime of the particles might 
stretch out for several weeks, reducing how much has to be injected to 
keep a certain loading).


And one reason of increased effectiveness of the reduction of sunlight 
(calculated, as I recall, in the case I did as amount of effect per 
amount of aerosol needed) in these latitudes is a result of doing the 
reduction right where the snow and (sea) ice albedo feedbacks are 
strongest, so just as warming leads to an amplified warming in the high 
latitudes, so will a reduction in warming lead to an amplified effect.


So, a lot would need to be considered to put together an operational 
plan, but, thinking a bit idealistically about only the physics and 
engineering of it, conceptually possible, at least in my view.


Mike



On 1/30/22 7:34 AM, Clive Elsworth wrote:
But John is saying they could cool the Arctic with SAI injected 
/below/ the stratosphere.



On 30/01/2022 12:09 SALTER Stephen  wrote:


Clive

There is not much rain in the stratosphere where SO2 will be injected.

Stephen.

*From:* healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
 *On Behalf Of 
*Clive Elsworth

*Sent:* Sunday, January 30, 2022 11:59 AM
*To:* SALTER Stephen 
*Cc:* Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke ; 
Peter Wadhams ; Chris Vivian 
; H simmens ; John 
Nissen ; Robert Tulip 
; geoengineering 
; Planetary Restoration 
; Shaun Fitzgerald 
; Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham 
; healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; Dermott Reilly 


*Subject:* RE: Marine Cloud Brightening


*This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.*

You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that 
the email is genuine and the content is safe.


Stephen


As I understand it SO2 gets rained out more readily than CFCs, which 
eventually drift into the stratosphere. CFCs are stable in the 
troposphere and only get destroyed in the stratosphere by the more 
intense UV.



Clive

On 30/01/2022 09:50 SALTER Stephen  wrote:



Clive

How do you think that stuff got up to the Ozone hole?

Stephen

*From:* healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com
 *On Behalf Of
*Clive Elsworth
*Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:22 PM
*To:* SALTER Stephen 
*Cc:* Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke
; Peter Wadhams ;
Chris Vivian ; H simmens
; John Nissen ;
Robert Tulip ; geoengineering
; Planetary Restoration
; Shaun Fitzgerald
; Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham
; healthy-planet-action-coalition
; Dermott
Reilly 
*Subject:* Marine Cloud Brightening


*This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.*

You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain
that the email is genuine and the content is safe.

Stephen


I confess I'm not sufficiently familiar with atmospheric physics
to say whether aerosol particles released under the Arctic
stratosphere would substantially move up into it.


Either way, Marine Cloud Brightening seems the safer option to me
for the reasons you have given on numerous occasions. The
question is if it can be ready in time and with sufficient social
license.


I think you're aware of the University of Washington's MCB work:
https://faculty.washington.edu/robwood2/wordpress/?page_id=954


The video on that page is high quality and only about a month
old. I wonder if some collaboration might help speed things up?


Clive


On 29/01/2022 21:03 SALTER Stephen  wrote:



Clive

Here is something about the Brewer Dobson velocity.

Stephen

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to 

[geo] RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

[SALTER Stephen]

Clive
Yes but if the life is shorter you need more aircraft.
Stephen

From: healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 12:35 PM
To: SALTER Stephen 
Cc: Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke ; Peter 
Wadhams ; Chris Vivian ; 
H simmens ; John Nissen ; Robert 
Tulip ; geoengineering 
; Planetary Restoration 
; Shaun Fitzgerald ; 
Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham ; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; Dermott Reilly 

Subject: RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.
But John is saying they could cool the Arctic with SAI injected below the 
stratosphere.

On 30/01/2022 12:09 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive
There is not much rain in the stratosphere where SO2 will be injected.
Stephen.

From: 
healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com
 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 11:59 AM
To: SALTER Stephen mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>>
Cc: Ron Baiman mailto:rpbai...@gmail.com>>; Sev Clarke 
mailto:sevcla...@me.com>>; Peter Wadhams 
mailto:peter.wadh...@gmail.com>>; Chris Vivian 
mailto:chris.vivi...@btinternet.com>>; H simmens 
mailto:hsimm...@gmail.com>>; John Nissen 
mailto:johnnissen2...@gmail.com>>; Robert Tulip 
mailto:rtulip2...@yahoo.com.au>>; geoengineering 
mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>>; 
Planetary Restoration 
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Shaun Fitzgerald mailto:sd...@cam.ac.uk>>; Hugh.Hunt 
mailto:he...@cam.ac.uk>>; Daphne Wysham 
mailto:dap...@methaneaction.org>>; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Dermott Reilly 
mailto:dermott.rei...@nanolandglobal.com>>
Subject: RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.
Stephen

As I understand it SO2 gets rained out more readily than CFCs, which eventually 
drift into the stratosphere. CFCs are stable in the troposphere and only get 
destroyed in the stratosphere by the more intense UV.

Clive
On 30/01/2022 09:50 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive
How do you think that stuff got up to the Ozone hole?
Stephen

From: 
healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com
 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:22 PM
To: SALTER Stephen mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>>
Cc: Ron Baiman mailto:rpbai...@gmail.com>>; Sev Clarke 
mailto:sevcla...@me.com>>; Peter Wadhams 
mailto:peter.wadh...@gmail.com>>; Chris Vivian 
mailto:chris.vivi...@btinternet.com>>; H simmens 
mailto:hsimm...@gmail.com>>; John Nissen 
mailto:johnnissen2...@gmail.com>>; Robert Tulip 
mailto:rtulip2...@yahoo.com.au>>; geoengineering 
mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>>; 
Planetary Restoration 
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Shaun Fitzgerald mailto:sd...@cam.ac.uk>>; Hugh.Hunt 
mailto:he...@cam.ac.uk>>; Daphne Wysham 
mailto:dap...@methaneaction.org>>; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Dermott Reilly 
mailto:dermott.rei...@nanolandglobal.com>>
Subject: Marine Cloud Brightening

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.
Stephen

I confess I'm not sufficiently familiar with atmospheric physics to say whether 
aerosol particles released under the Arctic stratosphere would substantially 
move up into it.

Either way, Marine Cloud Brightening seems the safer option to me for the 
reasons you have given on numerous occasions. The question is if it can be 
ready in time and with sufficient social license.

I think you're aware of the University of Washington's MCB work: 
https://faculty.washington.edu/robwood2/wordpress/?page_id=954

The video on that page is high quality and only about a month old. I wonder if 
some collaboration might help speed things up?

Clive

On 29/01/2022 21:03 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive

Here is something about the Brewer Dobson velocity.

Stephen

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[geo] Re: Marine Cloud Brightening

[Michael MacCracken]

Dear Stephen--The atmospheric transport of gases and aerosols differs. 
For gases, atmospheric mixing dominates any consideration of different 
molecular weights up to altitudes of five to ten tens of kilometers. For 
aerosols, their mass and size introduce a fall rate that, depending on 
size, generally takes over in the upper troposphere/lower stratosphere, 
so say by ten kilometers or so. So CFCs get up to the stratospheric 
ozone layer by atmospheric mixing, generally in air in low latitudes. 
Getting aerosols into the stratosphere (unless they are chemically 
formed there, such as in the stratospheric ozone hole region) generally 
takes some sort of major injection mechanism like a volcanic eruption 
(or very major firestorm).


Mike

On 1/30/22 4:50 AM, SALTER Stephen wrote:


Clive

How do you think that stuff got up to the Ozone hole?

Stephen

*From:* healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
 *On Behalf Of 
*Clive Elsworth

*Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:22 PM
*To:* SALTER Stephen 
*Cc:* Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke ; 
Peter Wadhams ; Chris Vivian 
; H simmens ; John 
Nissen ; Robert Tulip 
; geoengineering 
; Planetary Restoration 
; Shaun Fitzgerald 
; Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham 
; healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; Dermott Reilly 


*Subject:* Marine Cloud Brightening

*This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.*

You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that 
the email is genuine and the content is safe.


Stephen

I confess I'm not sufficiently familiar with atmospheric physics to 
say whether aerosol particles released under the Arctic stratosphere 
would substantially move up into it.


Either way, Marine Cloud Brightening seems the safer option to me for 
the reasons you have given on numerous occasions. The question is if 
it can be ready in time and with sufficient social license.


I think you're aware of the University of Washington's MCB work: 
https://faculty.washington.edu/robwood2/wordpress/?page_id=954


The video on that page is high quality and only about a month old. I 
wonder if some collaboration might help speed things up?


Clive

On 29/01/2022 21:03 SALTER Stephen  wrote:

Clive

Here is something about the Brewer Dobson velocity.

Stephen

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[geo] RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

[SALTER Stephen]

Clive
There is not much rain in the stratosphere where SO2 will be injected.
Stephen.

From: healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 11:59 AM
To: SALTER Stephen 
Cc: Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke ; Peter 
Wadhams ; Chris Vivian ; 
H simmens ; John Nissen ; Robert 
Tulip ; geoengineering 
; Planetary Restoration 
; Shaun Fitzgerald ; 
Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham ; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; Dermott Reilly 

Subject: RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.
Stephen

As I understand it SO2 gets rained out more readily than CFCs, which eventually 
drift into the stratosphere. CFCs are stable in the troposphere and only get 
destroyed in the stratosphere by the more intense UV.

Clive
On 30/01/2022 09:50 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive
How do you think that stuff got up to the Ozone hole?
Stephen

From: 
healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com
 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:22 PM
To: SALTER Stephen mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>>
Cc: Ron Baiman mailto:rpbai...@gmail.com>>; Sev Clarke 
mailto:sevcla...@me.com>>; Peter Wadhams 
mailto:peter.wadh...@gmail.com>>; Chris Vivian 
mailto:chris.vivi...@btinternet.com>>; H simmens 
mailto:hsimm...@gmail.com>>; John Nissen 
mailto:johnnissen2...@gmail.com>>; Robert Tulip 
mailto:rtulip2...@yahoo.com.au>>; geoengineering 
mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>>; 
Planetary Restoration 
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Shaun Fitzgerald mailto:sd...@cam.ac.uk>>; Hugh.Hunt 
mailto:he...@cam.ac.uk>>; Daphne Wysham 
mailto:dap...@methaneaction.org>>; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>;
 Dermott Reilly 
mailto:dermott.rei...@nanolandglobal.com>>
Subject: Marine Cloud Brightening

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.
Stephen

I confess I'm not sufficiently familiar with atmospheric physics to say whether 
aerosol particles released under the Arctic stratosphere would substantially 
move up into it.

Either way, Marine Cloud Brightening seems the safer option to me for the 
reasons you have given on numerous occasions. The question is if it can be 
ready in time and with sufficient social license.

I think you're aware of the University of Washington's MCB work: 
https://faculty.washington.edu/robwood2/wordpress/?page_id=954

The video on that page is high quality and only about a month old. I wonder if 
some collaboration might help speed things up?

Clive

On 29/01/2022 21:03 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive

Here is something about the Brewer Dobson velocity.

Stephen

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[geo] RE: Marine Cloud Brightening

[SALTER Stephen]

Clive
How do you think that stuff got up to the Ozone hole?
Stephen

From: healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
 On Behalf Of Clive Elsworth
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:22 PM
To: SALTER Stephen 
Cc: Ron Baiman ; Sev Clarke ; Peter 
Wadhams ; Chris Vivian ; 
H simmens ; John Nissen ; Robert 
Tulip ; geoengineering 
; Planetary Restoration 
; Shaun Fitzgerald ; 
Hugh.Hunt ; Daphne Wysham ; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
; Dermott Reilly 

Subject: Marine Cloud Brightening

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Stephen

I confess I'm not sufficiently familiar with atmospheric physics to say whether 
aerosol particles released under the Arctic stratosphere would substantially 
move up into it.

Either way, Marine Cloud Brightening seems the safer option to me for the 
reasons you have given on numerous occasions. The question is if it can be 
ready in time and with sufficient social license.

I think you're aware of the University of Washington's MCB work: 
https://faculty.washington.edu/robwood2/wordpress/?page_id=954

The video on that page is high quality and only about a month old. I wonder if 
some collaboration might help speed things up?

Clive

On 29/01/2022 21:03 SALTER Stephen 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>> wrote:


Clive

Here is something about the Brewer Dobson velocity.

Stephen

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