[geo] RE: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

[SALTER Stephen]

Hi All

Ye gives welcome and rare support for work on marine cloud brightening but it 
is not quite accurate to say ‘real-time hurricane management’. If you want to 
moderate a hurricane tomorrow you are much too late.  You should have started 
last November and recorded the trajectory of sea surface temperatures along the 
path of the hurricane breeding oceans so as to get the pattern requested by 
Governments of hurricane affect countries in the spraying contract. You should 
aim to get this done by the start of the next hurricane season. Tropical storms 
provide useful rainfall so we should moderate rather than prevent. It would 
also be wise to avoid blame for the choice of temperature!
Ye is quite right to identify spray generation as a key problem.  Andreas 
Tsiamis has done a useful COMSOL multi-physics simulation of drop generation 
using the Stevenson sandwich nozzle design. He has numbers for pressure, drop 
frequency and drop diameter as a function of nozzle size. There were a small 
number of coalescence events leading to double-volume drops but these were 
removed with a one bar modulation at the drop frequency.  The results are in 
close agreement with the paper by van Hoeve at 
https://doi.org/10.1063/1.3524533. Camelia Dunare has used contact printing to 
etch the sandwich nozzles down to twice the diameter we need and is confident 
that the higher resolution of optical printing will get to the smaller nozzles 
needed. Engineering drawings for the housing of 200 mm are complete except for 
the high-frequency pressure excitation needed for mono-disperse spray and 
avoidance of the Aitken mode. The remaining problem is that while silicon has 
sufficient tensile stress it is also extremely notch sensitive. The 
instrumentation needed to measure spray size in the laboratory is quite 
expensive but we may be able to get access to the life savings of a gullible 
old-age pensioner. Drawings and design calculations for much of the rest of the 
vessel have reached the stage where they could go to potential sub-contractors.
Ye also mentions the intermittency of wind used for power generation.  Data 
from the trade-wind regions and southern oceans are encouraging and the sea is 
an excellent heat integrator.  We do not need exact day-by-day cooling.  We 
want a low dose over a wide area so changes of wind direction are welcome. It 
might be desirable to spray under clear skies into air masses which will later 
move to regions with higher relative humidity.  Being able to choose time and 
place (and stop at short notice) is welcome but cooling next week is soon 
enough.
It is unfortunate that ignorance of a new field is so often used as an argument 
to prevent funding of research that might remove that ignorance. Perhaps this 
is the result of career anxiety by timid administrators.

Breathe safely

Stephen Salter
Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design
School of Engineering
Mayfield Road
Edinburgh EH9 3DW
0131 650 5704
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-0h14RFq4M=155s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BBVTStBrhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBB6WtH_Ni8



From: Ye Tao 
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 9:30 AM
To: Robert Tulip ; 'Planetary Restoration' 
; 'geoengineering' 
; 'healthy-planet-action-coalition' 
; 
hpac-steering-cir...@googlegroups.com; noac-meeti...@googlegroups.com; 'pfieko' 
; 'Ron Baiman' ; SALTER Stephen 
; 'Peter Wadhams' 
Subject: Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email 
is genuine and the content is safe.

Dear Robert,

Thanks for directing attention and effort to SRM, away from carbon capture 
fantasies that distract and harm.

I support funding MCB research of the wind-powered type proposed by Stephen.  
This is because MCB using fossil-fuel ships is counterproductive due to 
unsustainable fuel consumption requirements.  The chemically benign nature and 
better spatial resolution of sea salt MCB are a couple of the many important 
advantages over SAI.  Another important application is real-time flood and 
hurricane management, something no other SRM approach seems capable of.

A central challenge in the way to realizing Stephen's wind-powered proposal is 
the development of an energy-efficient system for seawater droplet production 
at the required monodispersity, sub-micron size, and flux.If these 
parameters cannot be simultaneously satisfied, several orders of magnitude 
increase in deployment energy and material costs would result.  So there is 
substantial uncertainty, after what will certainly be a multi-decade research 
program, on if such a system could be invented and developed.

Another challenge is wind intermittency and its high-frequency directional 
changes.  Their impact on the achievable duty cycle of a single vessel and the 
resulting areal coverage efficiency have not been taken into account in 
existing 

Re: [EXTERNAL] [geo] Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

[Jonathan Marshall]

Australia is also well placed to build upon its existing. and long term. 
support for more fossil fuels, and a technology neutral position which always 
means encouraging more fossil fuels and the release of massive amounts of 
GHG

jon
___
From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of rob...@rtulip.net 
Sent: Friday, 4 March 2022 2:32 PM
To: 'Planetary Restoration'; 'geoengineering'; 
'healthy-planet-action-coalition'; hpac-steering-cir...@googlegroups.com; 
noac-meeti...@googlegroups.com; 'Ye Tao'; 'pfieko'; 'Ron Baiman'; 'Stephen 
Salter'
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [geo] Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

As Daniel mentioned, Australia is well placed to build upon its existing 
support<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02290-3> for marine cloud 
brightening for the Great Barrier Reef.

Australia could seek international agreement to test MCB in international 
waters, working with scientists and governments.  Deployment would aim to 
mitigate factors that have accentuated unstable weather in Australia.

Paul Beckwith provided this explanation of possible MCB technology - 
https://paulbeckwith.net/2021/06/20/autonomous-spray-ship-deployment-to-cool-planet-via-marine-cloud-brightening/<https://paulbeckwith.net/2021/06/20/autonomous-spray-ship-deployment-to-cool-planet-via-marine-cloud-brightening/>

Robert Tulip


From: 
planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com<mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>
 
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>>
 On Behalf Of Daniel Kieve
Sent: Friday, 4 March 2022 11:55 AM
To: Robert Tulip mailto:rtulip2...@yahoo.com.au>>
Cc: Planetary Restoration 
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com>>;
 geoengineering 
mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>>; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>;
 
hpac-steering-cir...@googlegroups.com<mailto:hpac-steering-cir...@googlegroups.com>;
 noac-meeti...@googlegroups.com<mailto:noac-meeti...@googlegroups.com>; Ye Tao 
mailto:t...@rowland.harvard.edu>>; pfieko 
mailto:pfi...@gmail.com>>; Ron Baiman 
mailto:rpbai...@gmail.com>>; Stephen Salter 
mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk>>
Subject: Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

Hi All,

As Robert says, given the geopolitical situation, a focus on direct cooling of 
the Antarctic ( via MCB in the Southern Oceans) makes perfect sense as opposed 
to the Arctic. With the Australian Government's existing support for Marine 
Cloud Brightening to help save the Great Barrier Reef, we'd be hitting the 
ground running ( relatively speaking).

Also, focus on MCB tech which only uses seawater / seasalt also maķes sense,  
given the evidence of its overwhelmingly benign likely effects ( if 
administered carefully) and the PR & political challenges associated with 
adding any substance to the atmosphere for geoengineering purposes.

Kind regards,

Daniel

On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, 22:24 'Robert Tulip' via Healthy Planet Action Coalition, 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com>>
 wrote:
Dear Ye, Peter, Ron, Stephen and all

I would like to ask the Australian Government to investigate methods to 
increase planetary albedo.  This is something the G20 should have on its agenda.

My view is that cooling the Southern Ocean using Marine Cloud Brightening 
should be a first topic to discuss for international agreement.  This would 
cool Antarctica, our planetary refrigerator, and appears likely to be able to 
mitigate sea ice melt, glacier collapse, the warming of ocean currents, extreme 
weather and biodiversity loss.  Antarctica might be an easier place to start 
than the Arctic in view of the geopolitics.

Ye, further to your comments below, it would be good for all methods to 
increase albedo to be studied.  I agree somewhat with your doubts regarding 
stratospheric aerosol injection (atmospheric chemistry uncertainties, acid rain 
risks, ocean ecosystem impacts, and inhibition of renewable transition) and 
could add ozone and hydroxyl effects as specific atmospheric chemistry 
concerns. For marine cloud brightening my assessment is that all of these 
effects are likely to be overwhelmingly benign, with significant positive 
benefits.  The atmospheric chemistry and rain distribution questions are likely 
to be primary.  MCB could be the simplest and safest and cheapest initial way 
to produce rapid cooling and mitigation of extreme weather.

I don’t accept that enabling a slower renewable transition is a big problem for 
the climate.  The effect on radiative forcing of cutting fossil fuel use can 
only be far smaller than the effects of direct albedo increase. It  is 
essential to use SRM to cut radiative forcing to buy time to mitigate extreme 
weather while CDR ramps up.   Emission reduction is likely to remain marginal 
to planetary cooling compared to SRM and CDR.

[geo] Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

[robert]

As Daniel mentioned, Australia is well placed to build upon its existing 
support   for marine cloud 
brightening for the Great Barrier Reef.  

 

Australia could seek international agreement to test MCB in international 
waters, working with scientists and governments.  Deployment would aim to 
mitigate factors that have accentuated unstable weather in Australia.   

 

Paul Beckwith provided this explanation of possible MCB technology - 
https://paulbeckwith.net/2021/06/20/autonomous-spray-ship-deployment-to-cool-planet-via-marine-cloud-brightening/

 

Robert Tulip

 

 

From: planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com 
  
mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com> > On Behalf Of Daniel Kieve
Sent: Friday, 4 March 2022 11:55 AM
To: Robert Tulip mailto:rtulip2...@yahoo.com.au> >
Cc: Planetary Restoration mailto:planetary-restorat...@googlegroups.com> >; geoengineering 
mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com> >; 
healthy-planet-action-coalition 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com> >; 
hpac-steering-cir...@googlegroups.com 
 ; noac-meeti...@googlegroups.com 
 ; Ye Tao mailto:t...@rowland.harvard.edu> >; pfieko mailto:pfi...@gmail.com> >; Ron Baiman mailto:rpbai...@gmail.com> >; Stephen Salter mailto:s.sal...@ed.ac.uk> >
Subject: Re: Marine Cloud Brightening for the Southern Ocean

 

Hi All,

 

As Robert says, given the geopolitical situation, a focus on direct cooling of 
the Antarctic ( via MCB in the Southern Oceans) makes perfect sense as opposed 
to the Arctic. With the Australian Government's existing support for Marine 
Cloud Brightening to help save the Great Barrier Reef, we'd be hitting the 
ground running ( relatively speaking).

 

Also, focus on MCB tech which only uses seawater / seasalt also maķes sense,  
given the evidence of its overwhelmingly benign likely effects ( if 
administered carefully) and the PR & political challenges associated with 
adding any substance to the atmosphere for geoengineering purposes. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Daniel

 

On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, 22:24 'Robert Tulip' via Healthy Planet Action Coalition, 
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com> > wrote:

Dear Ye, Peter, Ron, Stephen and all

 

I would like to ask the Australian Government to investigate methods to 
increase planetary albedo.  This is something the G20 should have on its agenda.

 

My view is that cooling the Southern Ocean using Marine Cloud Brightening 
should be a first topic to discuss for international agreement.  This would 
cool Antarctica, our planetary refrigerator, and appears likely to be able to 
mitigate sea ice melt, glacier collapse, the warming of ocean currents, extreme 
weather and biodiversity loss.  Antarctica might be an easier place to start 
than the Arctic in view of the geopolitics.

 

Ye, further to your comments below, it would be good for all methods to 
increase albedo to be studied.  I agree somewhat with your doubts regarding 
stratospheric aerosol injection (atmospheric chemistry uncertainties, acid rain 
risks, ocean ecosystem impacts, and inhibition of renewable transition) and 
could add ozone and hydroxyl effects as specific atmospheric chemistry 
concerns. For marine cloud brightening my assessment is that all of these 
effects are likely to be overwhelmingly benign, with significant positive 
benefits.  The atmospheric chemistry and rain distribution questions are likely 
to be primary.  MCB could be the simplest and safest and cheapest initial way 
to produce rapid cooling and mitigation of extreme weather.  

 

I don’t accept that enabling a slower renewable transition is a big problem for 
the climate.  The effect on radiative forcing of cutting fossil fuel use can 
only be far smaller than the effects of direct albedo increase. It  is 
essential to use SRM to cut radiative forcing to buy time to mitigate extreme 
weather while CDR ramps up.   Emission reduction is likely to remain marginal 
to planetary cooling compared to SRM and CDR. This is an important moral 
question regarding the strategic justification for geoengineering.  Slowing the 
renewable transition is a good thing to bring on board communities and states 
who now support traditional energy sources.

 

Sea salt is a safe natural product whose cooling effect can be cheaply 
optimised using the methods described by Stephen Salter. I would hope that only 
when NaCl is accepted as a good way to improve atmospheric chemistry should 
nations consider deploying atmospheric iron and sulphur, recognising that the 
scientific case for both is quite strong.

 

Robert Tulip

 

 

 

From: healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com 
  
mailto:healthy-planet-action-coalit...@googlegroups.com> > On Behalf Of Ye Tao
Sent: