Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Scott wrote: I didn't attack you... yet. You, on the other hand, ARE attacking others here: And why on Earth would you not at least display the actual ratio as the user works? Changing that (as compared to 2.2 which DOES display the current ratio) was just nuts, frankly. What should the fact that you thought that was a sensible way of doing it make me think about you? I didn't write either of those quotes. You are now attacking me based on what others wrote. You don't use the GIMP. I said I used Gimp in the past. (The person who wrote the erroneously attributed quotes above is a current Gimp user.) When I used Gimp in the past, I had problems that I was not able to overcome, despite reading tutorials, documentation (such as it was), googling, and asking for help on this very list. I'm not a novice at using computers - I've been using computers since 1979 (TRS-80 - I wrote programs in DOS). I had experience using PSP, PS, and other image editing tools. I'm an early adopter - yet I was unable to do some basic things with Gimp due to the poor design of the program for these particular (common) image manipulation tasks. I gave you my feedback on that. All I have received in reply are attacks. Not one person on this list has said you have a good point, some of the things you have mentioned are real problems and we should work on that more (or we are working on that now). The closest anyone has come was a reply from Michael (thank you, Michael) referring to the bugzilla thread (going back to March, 2001, almost 7 years now) on why it's hard to fix my #1 stopper problem due to some initial poor design decisions. You attack the developers and attempt to shame anyone here who might attack you, the messenger. You waste other's time. What should all of that make us think about you? It leads me to conclude you are a troll with nothing better to do. It leads me to think of you as a jerk. Look in the mirror. I haven't called you names. I've given you my feedback. You can't even keep straight who said what, and now you are the first to call others names - calling two different people jerks because they have been willing to take the time to explain the problems they have with the program. An intelligent, mature, and humble person would quickly apologize profusely for these mistakes. An arrogant, immature, or unintelligent person would be quick to splurt out more excuses, or attack yet again. Let's see which approach you take... jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Geoffrey wrote: I guess you missed the reference to the fact that ALL the work put into GIMP is done by the developers on their time. I put in many years as one of the primary list admins for an open source project's -users list (similar to gimp-user) and -dev list, organizing and adding to the the FAQ, answering questions on both lists, writing documentation, submitting bug reports, feature requests, and proposing UI improvements. I'm quite aware of how open source projects are developed, and I've paid my dues volunteering. I have a right to give my feedback when I feel an OS project is misguided and has overlooked critical aspects of design such as consistent tool use (backwards compatible), intuitive UI, and good documentation. jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Thomas Worthington wrote: I've just reverted to 2.2 2.4 has too many problems to bother with; the alt key is the final straw. I've been lurking on this list for several years. I'd LOVE to be able to use Gimp instead of paying the ever increasing price of Photoshop. But Gimp is NOT a suitable replacement for Photoshop for most image editing professionals and this alt-key problem highlights why. Gimp programmers make capricious changes in the software with total disregard for their user community. They expect that all users are programmers, that they can work around bad design decisions, handle bad UI decisions, deal with poor documentation, write their own patches, etc. Gimp will never come into general use until these issues are fixed. Firefox is a true competitor to IE because the Firefox development team understands these issues and built a product that average computer users can easily use. The Gimp development team should give this serious consideration. It doesn't take a lot of work to fix Gimp - it just requires a small change in focus - design the program for non-programmers to USE, don't make capricious changes, don't BREAK things when you introduce new versions. Back to lurking... jc - professional photographer, Photoshop user since v4.0, currently using CS3. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Olivier Lecarme wrote: JC Dill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thomas Worthington wrote: I've just reverted to 2.2 2.4 has too many problems to bother with; the alt key is the final straw. I've been lurking on this list for several years. I'd LOVE to be able to use Gimp instead of paying the ever increasing price of Photoshop. But Gimp is NOT a suitable replacement for Photoshop for most image editing professionals and this alt-key problem highlights why. Gimp programmers make capricious changes in the software with total disregard for their user community. They expect that all users are programmers, that they can work around bad design decisions, handle bad UI decisions, deal with poor documentation, write their own patches, etc. Gimp will never come into general use until these issues are fixed. Firefox is a true competitor to IE because the Firefox development team understands these issues and built a product that average computer users can easily use. The Gimp development team should give this serious consideration. It doesn't take a lot of work to fix Gimp - it just requires a small change in focus - design the program for non-programmers to USE, don't make capricious changes, don't BREAK things when you introduce new versions. I generally remain silent in front of so strong statements, but this one is too typical. Could you be only a little specific about these capricious changes? And what is this alt-key problem? As was stated in the first post in this thread: Is there any way to restore the Alt key to its old usage in 2.4? I can't drag selections anymore because it requires Alt and mouse at the same time, which is a problem on Linux. How do I tell Gimp to use another shift-type key for that action? The behavior and use of the Alt key changed between 2.2 and 2.4, without providing any way for users to select or configure the older behavior in Gimp. That is showing disregard for your established user base. You may have good reasons to decide the new behavior is better but you should provide a way (within the software itself) for the user to configure the older behavior (in Gimp) rather than force them to go back to a prior version to use the software they way they have been using it, or to change how they use the software. This is basic backwards compatibility. Note that such comments always come from people calling them true professionals, as if anybody else would be simple and stupid amateurs... Now you resort to an ad hominem attack of the messenger instead of listening to the message. I've seen this happen several times over my years of lurking on this list. I didn't call myself a true professional - I stated that I'm a professional photographer solely to give you context for my comments. I'm a typical potential Gimp user. I tried to use it many years ago (when I first joined this list) but it couldn't meet my needs. I've remained interested in Gimp, and stayed on the list to lurk and learn. I had hope that someday it would develop into a software product that I could use instead of Photoshop. I provided this background so you would understand the context for my comment - not to say I'm in any way better or special. If you want users like me to embrace and use Gimp you must consider our needs and comments when you make design decisions. The fact that few outside the programmer community use Gimp shows that you are not making inroads into this other possible user base - it's clearly because you don't keep these other users in mind when you design the program and UI. A programmer friend (Linux user/programmer, avid open source proponent) asked me recently if I thought he should recommend Gimp to another friend. I told him what I'm telling you - it's not suitable for a non-programmer, especially when there are other choices (as abound on Windows and Mac OSs). There are a plethora of easier-to-use free products (like Irfanview) - if someone needs more tools than those free products offer, they are MUCH better off paying for Photoshop or Photoshop Elements than dealing with the quirky nature of Gimp and subject to the capricious changes that occur as new versions are rolled out. The benefit of saving a few bucks isn't worth the multitude of problems - particularly the poor documentation and lack of support. A Photoshop user has thousands of web forums and millions of other PS users as resources to learn how to do something in PS. Try taking any PS tutorial (especially one about programming an action) and applying to to Gimp. This is impossible for most users! So those resources aren't available to Gimp users. I came to this forum because I was trying to do something in PS and I was told oh, you can do that in Gimp. I downloaded Gimp, tried to figure it out (and was dismayed at the poor documentation) and I came here for help. I couldn't get Gimp
Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Thu, 2007-12-20 at 11:17 -0800, JC Dill wrote: I'm a typical potential Gimp user. I tried to use it many years ago (when I first joined this list) but it couldn't meet my needs. I've remained interested in Gimp, and stayed on the list to lurk and learn. I had hope that someday it would develop into a software product that I could use instead of Photoshop. I provided this background so you would understand the context for my comment - not to say I'm in any way better or special. If you want users like me to embrace and use Gimp you must consider our needs and comments when you make design decisions. The fact that few outside the programmer community use Gimp shows that you are not making inroads into this other possible user base - it's clearly because you don't keep these other users in mind when you design the program and UI. I don't know where you get that impression from. I get that impression from reading the posts on this list. The ongoing redesign of the user interface is based on an extensive analysis of user feedback, workspace observations and analysis by user interface professionals. Our UI team is working on this for more than a year now, spending about twenty hours per week. And they are doing this in their free time. We, the developers, then pick up their suggestions and spend our free time implementing them. It would be nice if you could show some appreciation for this work. This is the first I heard of this work. How do you expect someone to appreciate something that they haven't heard about? There are certainly many things that can be done even better. We are just beginning to incorporate the results of the usability evaluation that took place. You admit you are just beginning to incorporate the results of the usability evaluation. I can hardly be expected to know about something that hasn't been incorporated, or has just recently been incorporated but not widely announced. As I said - I'm a potential Gimp user. I tried it several years ago, and I am subscribed to this list to stay abreast with the changes that are discussed on this list. I don't currently have it installed. Like millions of other potential Gimp users, I don't have time to install and test it every time you release a new version to see if it's ready for prime time yet. Rather than try to convince me it's great (while you also admit you are just beginning to incorporate needed changes as a result of a usability evaluation), it would be nice if you would just admit that it still needs a lot of work, and that you will let the user (and potential user) community know when you have actually done the work to make it easier to use for non-programmers. I hope that documentation is high on your list. This is one of the weakest parts of most open source projects. Something like a browser needs little documentation. Something more complex like a mail reader needs more documentation. It's no coincidence that Firefox has more users than Thunderbird - the documentation in Thunderbird is not very complete. Gimp was (the last time I used it) very poorly documented. It is very important to document not just new features but also anytime you change how a feature works - such as this alt-key issue. jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Alt Key
Scott wrote: On Thursday 20 December 2007 11:17:17 am JC Dill wrote: Is there any way to restore the Alt key to its old usage in 2.4? I can't drag selections anymore because it requires Alt and mouse at the same time, which is a problem on Linux. How do I tell Gimp to use another shift-type key for that action? The behavior and use of the Alt key changed between 2.2 and 2.4, without providing any way for users to select or configure the older behavior in Gimp. That is showing disregard for your established user base. You already said you are not among that user base, I'm a typical 'potential Gimp user'. Why are you acting all hurt over this change; it doesn't affect you? Oh, but it does. If you do this type of thing now (and don't see anything wrong with it), you can be expected to do it again. If I start with Gimp now, at some point I'll be urged to upgrade to take advantage of new features, but then discover that you changed how the program works - that old workflows no longer work in the same way. you should provide a way (within the software itself) for the user to configure the older behavior... This is basic backwards compatibility. Backward compatibility is not the holy grail of interface design. Are you an interface designer, or a programmer? If it were, we would all still be using the command-line... The command line still works - and breaking command line programs when an OS is upgraded is one of the biggest problems with OS upgrades. You can put new features over the old (e.g. add a GUI over a command line interface), but you shouldn't break old features or old commands when you do that. The fact that few outside the programmer community use Gimp I don't think this is a given. I assert that it's is quite obviously a given - based on the lack of widespread adoption of this program and continued strong sales for a similar program that costs hundreds of dollars. Why would people be buying Photoshop if Gimp were just as good and just as easy to use? Look at the adoption of Firefox when IE is free - if IE costs hundreds per computer Firefox would have totally taken over the market by now. The only reason IE has the user base it has is because MS gives it away for free and embeds it in the OS. But Photoshop is not given away for free, and is not embedded in the OS. Instead, people pay hundreds of dollars - usually every few years for the next version, to buy PS instead of using free Gimp. Clearly there are huge benefits for the average (non-programmer) user to stick with PS. I, for one, am not a programmer. There is a thriving non-programmer GIMP user community forum at http://gimptalk.com/. GIMP's user base may not be as large as Photoshop's, but it is not a given that it is largely programmers using it. I also personally know at least two professional photographers (they make their living doing photography) who use GIMP for all their digital image processing who are not programmers, either. I had a conversation with one of them less than a month ago. He said that GIMP provides all the necessary tools a professional photographer needs. I don't know of any professional photographer who doesn't use Actions. You can't record an action in Gimp - you have to program it. This makes it much harder to use for non-programmers, and makes it impossible to use Photoshop Actions recorded by others. I do know some photographers who use Gimp - they are all programmers, all happy to spend their time fiddling with the programming aspects rather than having the tool do the hard work (actions) while they do the creative work (creative edits). You say: it's not suitable for a non-programmer... And then: Try taking any PS tutorial (especially one about programming an action) and applying to to Gimp. This is impossible for most users! So those resources aren't available to Gimp users. Without dwelling on the obvious contradiction in your remarks, There is no contradiction. GIMP does not attempt to clone Photoshop. I would not expect macros written for any program to work in any other that was not intended to clone that product. I'm talking about following the concept of creating an action, following the ideas in the tutorial. The concept of here is a way to do a thing and here is a way to program your software to do this thing over and over automagically is not new in image editing software. Many methods of how to do a thing in PS and Gimp are similar (e.g. how to use a given editing tool such as a paintbrush or eraser), but the method for doing something over and over is fast and easy in PS (record an action) and laborious and complicated in Gimp (script-fu). But if you insist, your argument could as easily be turned around and applied to making PS do what a tutorial or macro does in GIMP. Would it be easy to achieve the same
Re: [Gimp-user] Adding a watermark and copyright info...
Mirageii wrote: The copyright (c) symbol is supposed to be Alt+0169, according to Windows Character Map, but in the GIMP Text Editor box, where you type in your text, pressing Alt+0169 yields absolutely nothing, no response. It simply doesn't work. You have to use the numbers on the keypad, not the numbers in the row above the letters on your keyboard. If you are using a laptop, there should be a function key that swaps 7,8,9,u,i,o,j,k,l,m (your keypad number set might be on different letters) into numbers. So you have to activate the swap function (on my laptop this is fctn+f11), then type alt+0169, then turn the swap function off (fctn+f11). It works fine when you do it that way: © jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimpshop
Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: Robert Citek [EMAIL PROTECTED] But enough trash talk about Gimpshop. Tell me how wonderful this forum is. What makes this forum shine? Well, I'd be more happy to answer this if you drop forum and use list instead. fo·rum Pronunciation (fôrm, fr-) n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr) 1. a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business. b. A public meeting place for open discussion. c. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program. 2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation. 3. A court of law; a tribunal. Robert was apparently using the term forum in the context of 1b - a public meeting place for open discussion. On the internet, forum is frequently used as an umbrella term that collectively refers to the different online discussion methods. Mailing lists (both those with and without webpage interfaces), usenet and non-usenet newsgroups, BBSs, web forums (in the sense of 1c, a specific medium), Tribe tribes, Orkut communities etc. are all forums in the sense that they are all public meeting places (on the internet) for open discussion of various topics. So when someone asks you to tell them how wonderful this forum is, you can assume they are inviting comparison with all other forums on the topic, not just other mailing lists. The term forum is especially useful for discussion forums that take multiple forms at the same time. Some people see usenet groups as newsgroups (read with a news reader) and others see it as this site (because they view it thru a web interface such as google groups, or a gateway website). A similar problem exists for Yahoo Groups which are both mailing lists and this site to different users. The term this forum will be correct for all users, where using this newsgroup or this list or this site can be confusing for users who don't understand the various ways the discussion forum is made available. jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimpshop
Michael Schumacher wrote: JC Dill wrote: So when someone asks you to tell them how wonderful this forum is, you can assume they are inviting comparison with all other forums on the topic, not just other mailing lists. Well, this is a mailing list. Anyone who uses it via a different access vector should be aware of this - mailing lists, like newsgroups, have more formal requirements to the message style than e.g. a web forum. For example: proper quoting, character encoding, addressing, ... All of that is irrelevant to the context of how forum was used. It was used as an umbrella term to include this list as well as all other lists, forums, usenet groups, etc. that could be compared with this list. jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp fonts in windows
Vytautas P. wrote: I assume everybody is keeping track on thread and knows what i'm answering. Sometimes email delivery is congested and delayed, resulting in messages received out of order. Sometimes someone is new to the group and is just starting to get the posts in the middle of a discussion. That's why we should always quote the *relevant* part of the prior text in our reply, to give context to what we are replying about. I don't like to scroll way down through all records, First, that is an artifact of BAD quoting - quoting all of the prior post. When people ONLY quote the part they are replying to then no scrolling should be necessary to get to their reply. Second, since you are writing this post for *others* to read, you should post it in the format that the *others* have said they want it. That means no top posting. especially on long threads. So no, I will not reply below quoted text. So, in other words, you refuse to participate in this group in the manner in which everyone else participates in it because of your personal (and misguided) belief that in doing so you make things easier for yourself, even if it makes things harder for everyone else. That's selfish and rude. And yes, i'll try to quote only parts i'm answering to. If you are willing to do that, why not just go the whole way and stop top posting and do it the way the rest of the group does it and the way that netiquette specifies is the preferred method? http://www.cybernothing.org/cno/docs/rfc1855.html If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. Doing it differently (quoting at the bottom and especially quoting the entire post at the bottom) *really* screws up quoting when there are nested quotes. It would be very refreshing if you would reconsider your reasons for refusing to cooperate and instead give it a try to do it the way the group prefers, the way described in RFC 1855, a system that has worked well for over a decade (since 1995). It would show that A) you aren't selfish and rude after all; and B) that you are willing to listen to arguments about why your way may not be best for the group as a whole; and C) that you DO care about presenting your ideas in a way that makes it easier for the others in the group to read them. Thank you! jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Howto write 8 Bit per pixel BMP files with gimp
John R. Culleton wrote: On Thursday 21 July 2005 10:26 am, Rainer Lehrig wrote: I have a software, that only works on Microsoft BMP files with 8 bits per pixel and 256 colour lookup table. How can I create such files with gimp. I already tried Indexed but without success. Best regards: Rainer What is the target program and what does it do? Perhaps there is another program that will accomplish your objective without the BMP restriction. On Linux systems IMageMagick will convert almost any format to almost any format but I sense you are not on LInux. For Windows users I know you can do this conversion with Irfanview. Irfanview can open/read almost any image file. You can save as windows bmp with 8bpp and 256 colors. If you have a lot of images to convert, open Irfanview thumbnails, select the images, then do a batch conversion (B). jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Question about scaling digital photos for prints
Tom Williams wrote: A friend of mine took a bunch of photos using her Vivitar 3.2MP digital camera with the camera set at 640x480 resolution. She wanted 4x6 prints of those and printed a bunch that came out looking all pixelated and basically like crap. Since then, we've set her camera back to the max resolution since previous photos taken at this resolution printed fine as prints. My question: is there anyway to use Gimp to scale the 640x480 images so they look as best as possible (no pixelation if possible) as 4x6 prints? I've scaled the images to 4x6 and have increased pixels per inch and have run many filters with no real success. Or is my friend basically stuck with what she has? You can resize the image up in steps to smooth out the pixelization and rough edges as you resize it, but you will never regain the missing detail that was not recorded when the photo was taken at such a low resolution so the resulting image will be soft. (Sharpening will help some, but not a lot.) To upsize in steps, increase the image size by no more than 10% (some say no more than 5%) at a time until it is at the desired size. For minimum quality 4x6 print you want 150 dpi which means you need 600x900 pixels (her 480x640 will need to be cropped as it is the wrong proportion for a 4x6, which means you need to resize it larger, then crop), for better quality you want 300 dpi which means 1200x1800 pixels. Upsizing in 5% increments takes 22 steps to get to ~1200x1800: 480 640 1 504 672 2 529 706 3 556 741 4 583 778 5 613 817 6 643 858 7 675 901 8 709 946 9 745 993 10 782 1042 11 821 1095 12 862 1149 13 905 1207 14 950 1267 15 998 1331 16 10481397 17 11001467 18 11551540 19 12131617 20 12741698 21 13371783 22 14041872 Upsizing in 10% increments takes 11 steps: 480 640 1 528 704 2 581 774 3 639 852 4 703 937 5 773 1031 6 850 1134 7 935 1247 8 10291372 9 11321509 10 12451660 11 13691826 10% goes faster, but only you can tell if the slower method will produce an improved result on this particular image. I'm not presently using gimp (I gave up and returned to photoshop and am mostly lurking to see if using gimp is something I should try again in the future), so I can't tell you the exact method for resizing but I hope that this is something you already know how to do. jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp
thegame2119 andrade wrote: Hi, I am a new user of the Gimp program and have a question about it. Hopefully I am asking in the right thing. Anyway, I have used the free trials of a number of image programs and one tool I really like is the clone brush, yet I can't seem to find one in the Gimp. Is there one? The reason I like it is because I like to make graphics and stuff out of pictures I get on the web and some of these pictures have stamps or something on them depicting the logo of the website I got the picture off of and the clone brush is a tool I find most helpful in getting rid of the stamp and also making it look like I haven't touched the picture. Just because a photo is displayed on the web doesn't mean it is legal to take it and use it for your own purposes. Copyright law exists for a purpose. People who make copyright-protected art can only make a living if their copyright is respected. Stealing their art for your own purposes is illegal and rude. You wouldn't like it if I went into your home and took something that belonged to you and used it for my own purposes without your permission and without compensating you. Please don't do that to others. There are SO many works given freely for use that it is not difficult to find those works and use them instead. Or ask the artist for permission. Removing the copyright imprint and then using the image anyway is a serious offense. If the artist discovers that you have done this and sues you, here in the US the law provides for over $100,000 in statutory damages for copyright infringement per image. You can't plead ignorance when you have gone thru the effort of removing the copyright imprint on the image! You can be held liable for these damages even when your use is non-commercial (for your non-commercial site etc.). jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] unsubscribing
Harald wrote: Hi, I am sory to mis-use this e-mailadres for it, but I trie to unsubscribe from this list, but don't succeed because of a error-message again and again: Error: No address given Wich I GAVE ofcourse. So, what do I do wrong? What address did you give, your address or the address of the list? What address were you mailing to? What did you put in the subject, and/or in the body? What was the address of the error message you received in reply? Unsubscribing from other mailinglist worked so far without any problem. Is there perhaps also an other way to unsubscribe? When viewing the full headers of email you get from this list, one will discover: List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The unsubscribe link only works when you send the email from the exact address used to subscribe to the list. The headers also include: List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Plus the following is found in the footer of each post from the list: http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user That page has an unsubscribe form. Have you tried it? jc ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
