Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 21:28 -0500, Ross Martinek wrote: > This debate is … absurd. Hi, have you already signed up? A lot of users tested Discourse. I'm one of them. Note, you can only send a request, if you reach "Level 1". It's not absurd to fight gamification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification I'm absolutely not a mentally immobile dino. I way more often fight for changes. In this case there are several reasons to fight against this step into the wrong direction. One reason is, that it does split the community to gains absolutely nothing. Btw. I'm using a major distro, that is a real rolling release, following upstream as close as possible. It's approach isn't user-friendliness, it does follow the user-centric approach. IOW I'm used to software changes and I make my homework on my own. Arch Linux migrated from Mailman 2, to Mailman 3, see https://lists.archlinux.org/mailman3/lists/arch-general.lists.archlinux.org/ --> "Postorius Documentation" [ https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/postorius/en/latest/ ] Requirements Postorius requires Python 3.7+. The minimum Django version is 3.2. Postorius needs a running version of GNU Mailman version 3.3.5." "https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ Why HyperKitty? Mailman is in need for replacement of its default Pipermail archiver. It is over 10 years old, users’ expectations have changed and their requirements are more sophisticated than the current archiver can deliver on. Mailman3 is the currently under active development and it offers a pluggable architecture where multiple archivers can be plugged to the core without too much pain. Some of the drawbacks of Pipermail : It does not support stable URLs. It has scalability issues (it was not suitable for organizations working with hundred of thousand of messages per day, e.g, Launchpad) The web interface is dated and does not output standards-compliant HTML nor does it take advantage of new technologies such as AJAX. The HyperKitty archiver addresses most of the drawbacks of Pipermail." That the GNOME foundation spread untruth related to Mailman is already a reason to fight back! Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [Evolution] [evolution-users] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:17 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 14:50 -0500, Pat David via gimp-user-list wrote: > > Anecdata. Unless you have some good examples where this is actually > > an "unmanageable mess". > > My experiences have mostly been just fine with mixed ML/web access. > > Hi, > > how about "some good examples" of Discourse mailing list multipart > emails with intact threads and some of those Discourse mailing list > multipart emails with plain text that is unmodified and a few additional > emails with proper quoting? > > I ask for emails, not for the way it's displayed by the forum. > > TIA, > Ralf PS: Here is an email that describes the issue [1]. This are two examples of the way it's done by Discourse: References: In-Reply-To: References: What we get is a thread |--email |--email What we don't get is a complete thread tree |--email |--email [1] Forwarded Message From: Pete Biggs via GNOME Discourse Reply-To: GNOME Discourse To: ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com Subject: [Site Feedback] Email usage of discourse - threading Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 13:33:30 + PeteB Pete Biggs October 21 I (and others from Evolution mailing list) are trying to get to grips with using discourse in a mailing list type way. One thing I’ve noticed is that the threading information on the emails doesn’t seem to be working. None of the message IDs in the References: header match up with other emails from the topic. I would expect a reply to at least mention the message ID from the messages it’s replying to, but it doesn’t seem to. Things are made more complex in that I don’t seem to be notified about my own posts - so that any threads that I reply to are essentially broken. The only consistent threading reference is to the original topic - i.e. so at least the specific topic seems to stay together - but even that breaks occasionally. Does anyone seriously use Discourse exclusively by email? P. Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond. You are receiving this because you enabled mailing list mode. To unsubscribe from these emails, click here. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] You can follow the Discourse server in Thunderbird using RSS
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 10:29 -0400, Kat wrote:
> I have been a gimp user for years and been on the mailing list a long time.
> I like it better then having to go to a forum and log in I can keep
> track of issues, updates and news
>
> I have also been a thunderbird user for years thank you ofnuts that I
> can do a rss feed in here
Hi,
you can use Discourse Gnome as a mailing list. The funny thing is, that
using it as a mailing list, it requires to turn of the mailing list
feature, not to enable it. Instead of enabling the mailing list feature,
you need to choose the wanted tag, in your case it's probably "gimp".
However, Discourse is not really a good mailing list, one of the
countless reasons was mentioned by Brad Rogers: "The problem with
discourse is when some ppl use it as a web forum and others use it as an
ML. Especially within the same thread. It all descends into an
unmanageable mess. :-("
For example, if we format a plain text mail, the forum will reformat it
as a HTML mail, hence a lot of probably wanted spaces get lost.
Here's a nice example, I recently made for a project in German.
A simple simplified analog cam and a simple simplified digital cam [1].
Without a lot of spaces removed by HTML and without an appropriate mono
space font the ASCII graphics will become nonsense.
This already becomes an issue, if you indent text like commands:
$ apt moo
Let alone it's output.
(__)
(oo)
/--\/
/ |||
* /\---/\
~~ ~~
..."Have you mooed today?"...
Regards,
Ralf
[1]
┌───┐
└┼┬──┼┐
Sucher ││ ││
┌┼┴┬─┼┘
│ │ │
│ │ ├┬┐
│││ │││
Film und Vorhang │││ │ │ Objektiv mit Blende
│││ │││
│ │ ├┴┘
│ │ │
└─┴─┘
┌───┐
└┼┬─┬┤
Sucher mit Bildschirm ││ ││
┌┼┴─┴┤
│ │
│ ├┬┐
││ │││
Sensor ││ │ │ Objektiv mit Blende
││ │││
│ │├┴┘
│ ││ Speicherkarte
└───┘
___
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Re: [Gimp-user] [Evolution] [evolution-users] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 16:02 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > losses will occur. > > Some of the people on some of the gnome lists, are being quite vocal > about all kinds of possibilities, but, seem to be doing nothing about > any of the possibilities. Hi, an important part of the app communities are the app developers, the admins and moderators of the current lists at gnome.org, hence a first step to get closer to a solution are statements from those people. We all or at least most of us were surprised and disorganized, the next step is to become more organised. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [evolution-users] [Evolution] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 14:43 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > On 25/10/22 10:18, Ralf via groups.io wrote: > > Temporarily we can continue to think about how to proceed at > > > > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > > https://groups.io/g/gimp-users > > > > Just to clarify - when I set up the replacement lists at groups.io (and, > I have set up another one, for a different gnome product), I did not set > them up to be as temporary facilities. > > The lists were set up to replace the applicable gnome.org mailing lists > that are being shut down. Hi, thank you again for your efforts. The Evolution mailing list at Gnome has around 850 subscribers, hence groups.io can't be a non-transient solution for this list. While I'm not against donations, I consider donations as a last resort, that should be avoided. The day we spend more money for donations, to keep FLOSS alive, than we spend for one time purchases to get proprietary software and free as in beer lifetime support, FLOSS is dead anyway. Somebody mentioned a proprietary replacement for Gimp, while I mentioned another FLOSS project for Gimp. I can't speak for this other person, but only for myself. It was not meant as trolling. Actually I'm using both, the proprietary software mentioned by this other person and the FLOSS software mentioned by me. I migrated a long time ago from Gimp to those other solutions and a few more for other reasons and I never bothered anybody by recommending to do the same. Mentioning an alternative was done due to the step made by the GNOME foundation, to drop the mailing lists without providing a reasonable replacement. I'm not completely pissed off by a forum, I'm completely pissed of by a forum with gamification. The other FLOSS software I mentioned (Krita) provides a mailing list. Btw. for those who are not only in pixel graphic, for photography there are anyway IMO way better solutions available, FLOSS as well as proprietary, to see just a few, take a look at https://lensfun.github.io/usage/ . IMO a plugin for Gimp still doesn't make it a good app for photography. YMMV! I'm not aware of software to my taste, that can replace Evolution for me and I used almost all known MUA software. While I'm not a MC user, for this purpose I'm in favour of command line with bashisms, I doubt that there's a replacement available for MC. As GUI editor I replaced Gedit for other reasons a long time ago by Pluma and Pluma by Xed and I even used Kate and similar. However, I never joined a mailing list for any of these editors. In a nutshell: IMO a free as in beer mailing list is useful for some apps and I expect it should be able to hold way more than 100 subscribers and not be limited to 1 GiB. Apart from replacing a dropped mailing list by a new mailing list another workaround/solution could be replacing an app by another app. For me and for some other users replacing a mailing list by Discourse is no option. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [Evolution] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 08:31 +0800, Luigi via evolution-list wrote: > Since we only have a few days left may I suggest the group focus on > putting forwards what options we have and those actually doing the > work can decide the best choice and we go for it (even if its not > perfect). Hi, Savannah was also mentioned by the MC mailing list (IIRC not for the mailing list, but for tickets). https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/WhyChooseSavannah/ On the Gimp mailing list there was a pointer to https://www.tuxfamily.org/en/about . It would be nice if former gnome.org mailing lists migrate to the same new location. Temporarily we can continue to think about how to proceed at https://groups.io/g/evolution-users https://groups.io/g/gimp-users IMO Savanna is a quite good idea, but FWIW Midnight Commander, Gimp, Gedit and Evolution have got BSD ports, too. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] New mailing list
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 23:20 -0400, SDA via gimp-user-list wrote: > Why splinter up the user lists? You need to ask this question the powers that be who are associated withe the GNOME foundation. > You do realize that its where the experts go > that is important, not you the user who needs the help! > > Crazy how you folks over react as if the sky is falling. Discourse is great > for user support and it doesn't work well as an email subscriber list. I > read the emails from Discourse, but if I want to reply I just click the link > in the email and respond directly on discourse. It's not like web forums of > old. We are not only "users" who need "help" from "experts" on the GNOME mailing lists. Some of us are "experts", who aren't associated withe the GNOME foundation. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 19:21 -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote: > The mailing list is moving to Discourse, yes. You can interact with > Discourse using email. Hi, a lot of the Evolution mailing list members, including myself, tested the mailing list ability of Discourse. I was not allowed to start a new thread by email, because my gamification level was 0. You are allowed to start a new thread by email, after you reached level 1. This is not the only annoyance. Discourse GNOME has got no real mailing list ability. > IRC, Discord, Mastodon, Twitter, continue to exist. IRC is as good as a mailing list, but no replacement for a mailing list and a mailing list is no replacement for IRC. Both are very good, but fit different needs. I'm not per se against forums, but a forum is per se less good than a mailing list. I'm completely against forums using gamification to fool the subscribers. Twitter and similar unsocial networks are hell! If no new mailing lists will be available, I seriously doubt that a lot of the Midnight Commander or of the Evolution mailing list subscribes are willing to use Discourse in the future, let alone Twitter or similar. Some might use IRC, other community members will be lost forever. It might be different for Gimp or Gedit mailing list subscribers. However, those used to command line, ncurses or ncurses alike approaches and/or mail user agents will less likely be much attracted by Discourse, Twitter and Co. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Forwarded Message From: Grzegorz Szymaszek To: m...@gnome.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf , gimp-user-list@gnome.org, evolution-l...@gnome.org Subject: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 19:01:11 +0200 Hi, FWIW, since a few years, Mutt's mailing lists[1] are hosted at Oregon State University Open Source Lab[2]. From my limited experience, this solution works quite reliably. In general, they provide hosting of mailing lists and other services for free for open source projects[3]. Some alternatives off the top of my head to consider: - Debian mailing lists[4], - freedesktop.org, as already mentioned by Yuri, - SourceHut[5] (most likely paid). [1]: http://mutt.org/mail-lists.html [2]: https://osuosl.org/ [3]: https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/ [4]: https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/HOWTO_start_list.en.html [5]: https://sourcehut.org/ Best of luck -- Grzegorz ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 17:57 +0200, Yury V. Zaytsev wrote: > * groups.io - way too expensive for us > * riseup.net - political organization > * Google Groups - free, no positive / negative experience > * Freedesktop - maybe they could accept a couple of low-traffic lists? > > If other lists find a good solution, please let us know. Thanks! Hi Yury, thank you for the summary. If something good should happen, I'll let you know. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
Hi, it's worth to forward this [1] to other GNOME mailing lists. Regards, Ralf [1] Forwarded Message To: evolution-l...@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 11:19:21 -0400 On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Just to reiterate and clarify, there is no "Mailman is unavailable" situation. Mailman has versions that support Python2 and Python3, and Python2 is still supported in many places (but maybe not in Gnome land). Gnome appears to be blaming python2 and Mailman, but it really seems that Gnome just really wants to give up email support in favor of support via web browser (with future ads, click tracking, data harvesting, etc?). I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for the subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this offer. -Jim P. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] New mailing list
Well done Bret! I posted the link https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2022-October/msg00057.html at the Evolution mailing list. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Hi,
I'm a long time Evolution mailing list subscriber, who just recently
subscribed to the gimp and mc mailing list, since we all suffer from the
decision that the GNOME mailing lists get shut down this month.
Reading the MC archive I noticed the question regarding groups.io. If
it's free as in beer or not depends on the count of subscribers and the
needed storage space. In short, it likely is not for free as in beer.
I opened a ticket with a request at
https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 .
On the Evolution mailing list a user asked
"What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently
scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse?
[snip]" -
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00294.html
Let's unite our power{,lessness}!
Regards,
Ralf
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[Gimp-user] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
By closing individual mailman mailing lists and replacing it with a single forum, everything is under control of a single authority. There even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted opinions, since the users are educated by levels, badges and presents. IOW all users are under general suspicion to express unwanted opinions, hence everybody is moderated by a credit system. This Chinese alike approach has nothing to do with the "libre" in FLOSS. There are valid reasons to moderate or ban a user, but usually such a user is barred by an individual part of a project, not by the whole universe and before it happens a user must have expressed something that is unwanted. A credit system to stop individual opinions in the first place stops all individual opinions completely. At the worst a "misbehaving" user gets not only banned from one or the other part of the project, but from the whole universe of the superior project. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
Hi, it's possible to replace almost all GNOME software by software that is more or less identically. For example gedit can easily be replaced by pluma or even better by xed. However, replacing GIMP is not that straightforward as replacing an editor. When the user interface of GIMP became more and more annoying and its JPG export became freakish, I replaced GIMP by Krita a long time ago. In the beging using Krita was frustrating, but on the long run this step has proven its worth. Related to the mailing list issue, there isn't really a good user mailing list for Krita, but at least there is one. The list is https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kimageshop . IMO it's important to fight back when leading projects don't care about the user base anymore. Dropping the mailing list after a Vogon-ish announcement is not the first thing the GNOME project does to harms the FLOSS community. Btw. the Evolution user community tested using Discourse GNOME as a mailing list replacement, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/thread.html . It's disgusting, Discourse GNOME is completely unsuitable as a mailman replacement. Unfortunately Evolution can't be replaced. I tested almost all FLOSS MUAs. The alternative to replacing apps such as Gimp and Evolution by other apps, are mailing lists run by the user base. However non-official mailing lists competing with official support channels are a PITA. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
