Re: Red Hat's Bluecurve (was: Red Hat 8.0 is 'official')
In a message dated: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 19:08:59 EDT Randy Edwards said: Debian rules, RH Sucks vi is for wimps Linux Hm, can't really find much to disagree with. Inconsistent rubbish. Any *real* Debianer knows it's GNU/Linux -- just like Debian prints on its web site. FWIW, it's *Debian* GNU/Linux because *they* chose to name their distibution that. Any *real* Linux user knows that the kernel is Linux, and in general, a system running the Linux kernel is known as a Linux system. If you want to get specific, you may choose to identify the distribution by it's proper name, such as Debian GNU/Linux, Red Hat Linux, Mandrake Linux, SuSE Linux, etc. :-P -- Seeya, Paul -- It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: RH 8.0 Question
On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Thomas M. Albright wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on KDE in RH 8? I may end up switching... That's what I'm running. I think it's very nicely done.. I even finally got my fiancee to switch from XP to linux due to her seeing KDE on my box. Ben -- Keep your broken arm inside your sleeve. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Complexity and user confusion (was: Red Hat's Bluecurve)
On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, at 1:59am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, I agree with you,. Removing options just for the sake of dumbing-down the UI is, well, dumb. The GNOME developers don't agree... Is there a URL to information on this stated goal of eliminating features? I am curious to learn more about it. I have seen user levels implemented in only two places: Once was the venerable GeoWorks (nee PC/GEOS) GUI for MS-DOS. The other is in the Nautilus system browser. If this ever did exist in Nautilus, it's been removed. Well, it exists in every version I have seen. Likely, it was lost with GNOME 2.0, which is a complete re-write of almost everything. Whether it will be added back in is, apparently, in some doubt. Actually another place this existed is in the Sawfish WM. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Lastly: Many corporations do, in fact, consider removing options to be an advantage. Why? It decreases training costs. I wonder how true that is, in practice. ... a corporate computer training class ... only cover[s] the (extreme) basics anyway... Ah, but the options still exist, which means someone will find them, (mis)use them, and break them, and call in the techies to fix it. I'm not talking about end-user training; I'm talking about the training costs of the support and administration staff. One of the reasons MS-Windows is so popular in corporations is that it lets people who should not be administrating a network administrate a network. The barrier to entry is lower. This lets them hire less experienced people with lower salary requirements. Of course, it also leads to many Windows networks being a disaster waiting to happen. Or, more accurately, a disaster that does happen, repeatedly. This syndrome saves the company money in the short term, but costs them more in the long term. Unfortunately, corporations (in this country, at least) have a history of sacrificing long-term success for short-term profit. Corporations are the ones that make software sales profitable, by and large, so the actual users of the software suffer. True. Unfortunately, recognizing that the situation is unsatisfactory does not automatically cause it to improve. :-( -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: KVM cards
Hi Kenny, How goes the battle? I haven't seen or heard much of you lately. [Self-Appointed Net.Cop Mode = ON ] On 8 Oct 2002, at 8:21am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never heard of such a beast. However, this is why I insist that any machine that has an OS on it that does not allow serial port access must have VNC on it. [entire quoted message deleted] 1. Please do not top-post (that is, put your reply after the quoted text). 2. Please trim quoted text. [Self-Appointed Net.Cop Mode = OFF ] Cheers! :-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: KVM cards
On 8 Oct 2002, at 9:27am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooops See what happens when I'm away for a while? First, I don't answer the person that I responded to, then I completely ruin Ben's day with poor netiquette... Hmmm... Today's looking up after all ;-) That's okay, I fscked up and sent what was supposed to be a private reply to the public list. *red face* Sorry for the noise, folks. I guess I'll have to join the Derek Martin Squeegee Club now. ;-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: RH 8.0 Question
Ben Boulanger wrote: I even finally got my fiancee to switch from XP to linux [...] Then she's definitely a keeper. :-) -- If the current stylistic distinctions between open-source and commercial software persist, an open-software revolution could lead to yet another divide between haves and have-nots: those with the skills and connections to make use of free software, and those who must pay high prices for increasingly dated commercial offerings. -- Scientific American ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OpenLDAP book?
In a message dated: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:46:12 PDT Ken Ambrose said: Hey, all. It appears to me that OpenLDAP has an almost complete dearth of dead-tree documentation. Is this true? Ayup! I've been looking for a good book on LDAP of *any* kind for a couple of years now. There are a 3 or 4 out there, but nothing really on technical side of running an LDAP server, and getting information into and out of it. There seems to be a lot on building applications to *use* an already existing LDAP server, which really doesn't do you much good if you can't figure out how to set the damn thing up and populate it to begin with! Does anyone know of a reasonably good book that is still in print that I might be able to find? There's one by Marc Wilcox, published by Wrox Press, called Implementing LDAP. The book focuses mostly on the Netscape server, and is a couple years old, but has a decent amount on OpenLDAP as well. The focus on the Netscape server is due to Marc's involvement with and development for Netscape I assume. The book is pretty decent, but still not the Sysadmin's Guide to OpenLDAP I'd prefer existed :( HTH, -- Seeya, Paul -- It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Version inflation (was: Red Hat's Bluecurve (was: ...))
In a message dated: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:26:37 EDT Matthew J. Brodeur said: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do mean by that? Solaris is still on 2.x, 2.9 just got released? (Remember, it's only the output of 'uname' that matters, since we tech weenies never pay attention to marketing efforts ;) Since we're being picky here, I get to tell you you're wrong. bash-2.05# uname -sr SunOS 5.7 bash-2.05# uname -a SunOS idoru 5.7 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10 :( Looks like Marketing beat up engineering and won! The last version of Solaris I played with was 2.6, where the uname output said so. The important question is what will they call Solaris after SunOS bumps to 6.x? That is an interesting question. My guess, Linux 2.6.x ;) -- Seeya, Paul -- It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: RH 8.0 Question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Derek D. Martin wrote: There is no mechanism provided by GNOME 2 to change your window manager. As I pointed out to you (Derek) in a private mail (which I probably haven't yet sent), this isn't true. The right way to switch to a new WM is to run: $ [newwmname] --replace Of course sawfish, the only(?) other Gnome compliant WM in RHL 8.0, doesn't support the replace feature. This leads to an incredibly nasty hackish way of doing things: * run gnome-session-properties * run something like sleep 30;sawfish * In those 30 seconds, go to the Current Session tab in gnome-session-properties, select metacity, click Remove, click Apply, wait * When sawfish starts, select it in the session list, set the Order to something sensible (20 seems good), set Style: Restart, click apply. * run gnome-session-save * exit gnome-session-properties * run gnome-session-save when you have a reasonable set of apps open. Easy, huh? The extra gnome-session-save is to prevent gnome-session-properties from being run every time you start X. - -- Matthew J. Brodeur RHCE, GSEC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.NextTime.com - | Your destiny lies before you,| | choose wisely. | - -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ovJpc8/WFSz+GKMRAnEnAKCztYNEygI/oyILpVXkTGWiA1TEFQCcCz4p MV5d7M80XVcpHiJJCkFcuYY= =A3Ct -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Why Linux? (was: Red Hat's Bluecurve)
In a message dated: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 00:47:28 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, at 3:24pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apparently, it is a friggin' *stated goal* to remove many configuration options from Gnome. So where's the value add to switch from MS? Sure, there's the it's free argument, but for most users, they don't care. Define users. Since we're specifically discussing the desktop configurability of Gnome2, I thought it clear that we would be also discussing the end/home user. However, that is not necessarilly so, as you've pointed out. But I'll get to that in a moment. For most home and small office users, free (gratis) makes a *HUGE* difference. Agreed, however, the realistic difference is nothing. The only place I know of where the average home user can purchase a computer for less because it either has no OS, or has Linux, is Wal*Mart, and even then, it's at WalMart.com, not in the stores (or so I'm lead to believe, please correct me if I'm wrong). If the end-user can only get a discount for not having an OS or having Linux on the system by purchasing on-line, is it safe to assume they already have a computer through which they have access to the net? If so, then, what are most likely to buy: a) something with no OS on it b) something they've barely heard of or c) something which they're very familiar with and use every day, but costs an extra $89-100? I'll bet on option C. They need a *very* compelling reason to choose A or B. I don't think $100 is enough in *most* cases. (It is for me, but I'm not your average user, and neither is anyone else on this list :) Where I work, we get a number of customers this way. Here is the Microsoft-based solution; it will cost you $20,000, most of that in software license fees. Here is the Linux-based solution; it will cost you $5000. Any questions? How many of them are asking you to outfit the entire office with desktops? (I'm not being facetious or a p.i.t.a, I have no idea what you're business model is, and therefore no way of knowing what types of customers you have or even what you do.) I'm making an assumption here that you primarily install servers and infrastructure vs. desktops. In which case, I'll agree, that the lower price tag of Linux is incredibly attractive to those signing the check. Especially so, since they're getting all the same, if not, more functionality out of the Linux-based solution than they would from the MS solution. Additionally, a server is something they don't sit in front of all day long and have to use for daily productive work. A server is some machine in the back room or closet that the IS group deals with when it's broken. Otherwise, it's just a shared drive or a web site, etc. In which case, the attraction to the user of Gnome2 has absolutely no applicability and is not the conversation we were having. On the other hand, if you in fact do install entire offices with desktops, and people are choosing Linux over Windows because of price, then this does have relevance to our discussion. In this case, the purchaser wants to know that Linux is going to look and feel just like whatever they're used to using in other jobs or at home. By removing features and configurability from Gnome2, they'll accomplish that! I don't agree with the practice, and think Paul I. is on the right track when he says hide don't remove the features and configuratbility options. But for the most part, people think computers are a very specific set of interfaces with a very specific set of configurable options. Giving them more will confuse them, and therefore lead them to conclude that more != better, rather, more == difficult, complex, confusing. Which is bad. Corporate customers do not, under any circumstances, want to slow down or inhibit the productivity of their people. Giving them a limited number of configurable options on the desktop is actually a good thing from a productivity point of view. That's what they're used to, and they've come to accept that. Keeping in mind that the average person is a sucker for eye-candy, and not more interested in Functionality over form like myself. Now put yourself into the management role, with an eye on employee productivity for a moment. Imagine if eveyone could endlessly customize every possible aspect of their environment. Let's just say that each person spends just one half of one day perfectly tweaking their desktop to suit them. (I've seen some people spend an entire day or more doing this under Gnome and E ;) That's a tremendous amount of time wasted on not being productive at all, which is a huge amount of money wasted for absolutely no business gain. One thing I have to credit MS with is the amount of usability testing they've done with their interfaces. They're not perfect, but they do spend an inordinate amount of resources on discovering what do users
Re: Complexity and user confusion (was: Red Hat's Bluecurve)
In a message dated: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 09:07:25 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I have seen user levels implemented in only two places: Once was the venerable GeoWorks (nee PC/GEOS) GUI for MS-DOS. The other is in the Nautilus system browser. If this ever did exist in Nautilus, it's been removed. Well, it exists in every version I have seen. Likely, it was lost with GNOME 2.0, which is a complete re-write of almost everything. Whether it will be added back in is, apparently, in some doubt. Actually another place this existed is in the Sawfish WM. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. I believe it also existed in MacOS at some point, didn't? Nautilus was originally developed by a bunch of ex-Mac developers, including Andy Hertzfeld (sp?) who is the mastermind of the Mac interface (supposedly). My understanding was that the nautilus design came from stuff they had worked on at Apple for the Mac. -- Seeya, Paul -- It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing, but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away. If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: RH 8.0 Question
On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 22:14, Thomas M. Albright wrote: OK, where does one change the window manager in Gnome in Red Hat 8? I can't find it in any of the Preferences or Settings menus. Well, well, well. After post my rant yesterday, I took a look at the latest Gnome Summary just published yesterday. Looks like a window manager selector is slated for Gnome 2.2. At least one 'complicated and confusing to the average joe user' feature is being added that I will find immensely useful (even if it is just once per install/upgrade): -=-= == 4. GNOME Development Series Snapshot 2.1 released -- A snapshot release of GNOME 2.1, the development release series leading up to GNOME 2.2 is out. Lots of nice little features like improved font control, window manager selector in the control panel, panel multiscreen support, return of gdialog and lots of other goodies. Check out the gnomedesktop.org story for all the details. http://www.gnomedesktop.org/article.php?sid=685mode=order=0 -=-= I'm going to try to cool down a bit and take some of Havoc Pennington's advice. It's an experiment and it's really a first cut that the Gnome developers need to get feedback on. Some features dropped from Gnome 1.4 - 2.0 may be reintroduced in 2.2 or later. Some won't. But it might not be time to give up on Gnome just yet (at least for me -- I know some gave up on it long ago ;-)). Admittedly, most of what was dropped isn't a huge problem for me (save metacity being the default window manager). I did always like the menu panel at the top of the screen, but won't be using it until I can make it stop being on top all the time. I impatiently await the release of Gnome 2.2. Hopefully it will fix most of the bogosities of Gnome 2.0. -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
