Re: CMS
Dan Coutu wrote: Lori Hitchcock wrote: Working with a company developing a website in a LAMP environment and starting to look at CMS. Hearing good and bad about both Joomla and Drupal. The needs to be very simple for non-techs to add content. For clients with simpler needs I often will use Word Press I've had good results with WordPress for many sites. It has a lot of plugins to add various functions not inherent to the WP platform. As others have pointed out, a more detailed list of the company's needs would be helpful. Feel free to contact me off-list, as building LAMP based sites with various back ends is something I do as part of Just Works. I'd be happy to work with them to come up with a good fit. Here are some of the key things I'd look for: Definitely a good list of questions. Any of the top three (Joomla, Drupal, and WordPress will do these to varying extents and varying amounts of ease-of-use and features. Brian -- --- | br...@datasquire.net Proprietor: http://www.JustWorksNH.com | | Computers and Web Sites that JUST WORK | | Work: +1 (603) 484-1461Home: +1 (603) 484-1469| --- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: a Joomla! view from LUGOR territory in Western NY [WAS Re: CMS ]
Carl Helmers wrote: Hi Ray... [and Lori and et al in GNHLUG ] Hi Carl: Great to hear from you. Hope the past winter was better for you in upstate then it was here in NH (though I do note the list of Emergency Backup links on your site). Joomla is definitely one of the popular CMS systems out there. I've found that the move away from static web pages to almost any CMS is pretty liberating for people. Removes the need to have 'the web person who makes all the changes' in an organization. Still trying to get the local schools over that little hurdle. Look forward to reading more of your web articles. --Ray (p.s.: Beth says hi.) --r ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS
2009/3/24 Drew Van Zandt drew.vanza...@gmail.com: Using Joomla currently; it seems to work well. Some plugins were required to make it do what we wanted, though. In particular the built-in file upload tool is crap, and there are form submission and tabbed-page plugins that are quite handy. Nontechnical folks can add, technical sorts can still access HTML to make tweaks if they feel the need. (It doesn't tie your hands too much.) --DTVZ Modulo the specific plugins, that's an excellent description of Drupal as well. -- Roger ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS
Lori Hitchcock wrote: Working with a company developing a website in a LAMP environment and starting to look at CMS. Hearing good and bad about both Joomla and Drupal. The needs to be very simple for non-techs to add content. Does anyone have any advice or experience with either of these? Does any one have a positive experience with another CMS? Hi Lori: We've used both Drupal and Plone recently. Some thoughts: - both reasonably complete CMS systems. - Plone has a tough learning curve -- but can be pretty easy for the non-techs once it is set up. - Drupal has less of a learning curve -- and also relatively easy to use once set up. - Drupal seems to hit the wall with complex environments a bit earlier than Plone does (e.g., Plone more complex but also more capable.) - Plone doesn't get security update alerts every week. - Plone community has a greater focus on web standards than Drupal community (core products not bad, Drupal add-ons are all over the map). - Drupal has a much larger collection of half-done, partially implemented, done some time soon now plug-ins. - Plone tends to have fewer plug-ins (and 1-3 of any particular selection, like blogging), but they tend to be maintained (there are, of course, always exceptions to this). - Drupal will deploy just about anywhere you can get PHP and MySQL. - Plone requires more specialized hosting (though places like Webfaction.com provide excellent service). - Plone built on Zope which is probably the most complex environment in the Python community. - Fairly active Plone community here in the northeast. - Drupal built on PHP and you can find PHP programmers just about everywhere. One big difference between the two is ecommerce. Drupal has a nice Ubercart system which is fairly flexible (long as you don't need multi-language checkouts). Plone community working on their first eCommerce plug in which is doing well, but nowhere near as functional as something like Drupal. If you need a heave e-commerce component, then a pure Plone solution is probably out of the picture for the moment. Above are all my personal opinions to date. I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch in either of these. Your mileage may, as always, vary. --Ray ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS
Lori Hitchcock wrote: Working with a company developing a website in a LAMP environment and starting to look at CMS. Hearing good and bad about both Joomla and Drupal. The needs to be very simple for non-techs to add content. Does anyone have any advice or experience with either of these? Does any one have a positive experience with another CMS? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ Lori, you really need to first understand what you require the CMS to actually do before making a selection. Joomla and Drupal both tend to be fairly hefty in terms of capability. You may not actually need all of that though. For clients with simpler needs I often will use Word Press because it provides the essentials of a CMS, is simple to use for non-technical people, and provides a good level of granularity with regard to content control mechanisms so that different sections of the site can be assigned to different people and the accounts can be prevented from editing other user's sections of the site. Here are some of the key things I'd look for: Do you have one person editing content or many? Do you need content editing access controls? Do you need e-commerce capability? Do you need a blog? Do you have existing content that you'll convert? Do you handle lots of images? Do you need to handle video or audio? Do you want site visitors to be able to interact with the site? Such as commenting, responses, help requests, etc. Do you need the site to integrate with other internal systems? What types of systems? Hope this helps! Dan ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
a Joomla! view from LUGOR territory in Western NY [WAS Re: CMS ]
Hi Ray... [and Lori and et al in GNHLUG ] _*Regarding CMS's:*_ I've been thinking about and experimenting with /Joomla!/ for my personal legacy site www.helmers.com http://www.helmers.com/ since last summer thanks to our former *_/BYTE/_* editorial colleague Mark Dahmke (co-owner of the ISP firm /Information Analytics, Inc./ in Lincoln Nebraska.) Mark followed up his suggestion of /Joomla!/ with my access to his /Joomla!/ beta site on which I started to experiment. After diddling around to see what /Joomla! /could do for the rest of 2008, I finally got serious about creating my new site at the end of December. While not obvious to me when Mark suggested /Joomla!/ to me last July, WWW research and then experimenting with a beta version of my now on line /Joomla! /site has shown this CMS to provide a great way to create an editorial oriented site ala a personal magazine. I am back in the meme of self-publishing that led to my _*/BYTE/*_ magazine at the start of the last quarter of the last century. With /Joomla!/, I use HTML output directories of articles created offline with /Open Office Writer/, uploaded to my site with /FileZilla/'s FTP, and then -- here is a /non-naive user/ part -- link each article's one .html file in the site's directory tree to its menu item by hand wiring that article's one /.html/ file name/address on the site to the corresponding /Joomla!/ menu item. That's the one relatively minor /naive user/ gotcha about /Joomla!/ as I use the system. The results far outweigh learning that one rote trick to use /Joomla!/ as presently implemented in the 1.5.9 version. The neatest thing from the point of view of my site's WWW visitors is the advantage of using their browsers when reading my articles. My internal /OOWriter/ bookmarks in the source document automatically become active hyperlinks once the HTML output reaches the WWW site. For good examples of my bookmark hyperlink technique presently posted, see my articles The Importance of (Emergency Backup) Power http://www.helmers.com/images/stories/CH_Main_M/Imp_E_B_Pwr/Importance_of_%28Emergency_Backup%29_Power.html or Compressor Time Box http://www.helmers.com/images/stories/Projects/C_T_B/Compressor_Timer_Box.html Both these articles use this technique for lists of sections and lists of images and occasional random internal links in text. /OOWriter/ external links to valid WWW addresses from an article automatically become active valid hyperlinks when the article is posted. (While not written and posted on my site yet, this is key to re-creating my article on a list of favorite WWW sites.) Use of a true WWW browser to read an otherwise static non-web article presentation is the major innovation that I have created. Unlike reading an article from /OOWriter /or even from a .pdf Adobe Acrobat form, the browser has a back button whose scope goes homogeneously from the on-line posted article all the way back to originating place on the WWW site! The article thus integrated with the whole WWW! My offline editorial method was not obvious when I first started looking at /Joomla!/ last summer. By January I had perfected the technique so that it works smoothly, though it is definitely not automatic and may be above the mythical /naive user/'s abilities. My /Joomla!/ beta site became the real www.helmers.com http://www.helmers.com/ on March 7 when I changed DNS pointers in close e-mail cooperation with Mark. For a while, my site will keep evolving as I add queued and new materials not yet posted. I still have un-answered questions about certain aspects of /Joomla!/ but at least I have base from which to ask questions... Then there is always the unknown of moving beyond the default site template :-) Live long and prosper Carl Helmers c...@helmers.com www.helmers.com http://www.helmers.com/ 585 . 624 . 9841 Raymond Cote wrote: Lori Hitchcock wrote: Working with a company developing a website in a LAMP environment and starting to look at CMS. Hearing good and bad about both Joomla and Drupal. The needs to be very simple for non-techs to add content. Does anyone have any advice or experience with either of these? Does any one have a positive experience with another CMS? Hi Lori: We've used both Drupal and Plone recently. Some thoughts: - both reasonably complete CMS systems. - Plone has a tough learning curve -- but can be pretty easy for the non-techs once it is set up. - Drupal has less of a learning curve -- and also relatively easy to use once set up. - Drupal seems to hit the wall with complex environments a bit earlier than Plone does (e.g., Plone more complex but also more capable.) - Plone doesn't get security update alerts every week. - Plone community has a greater focus on web standards than Drupal community (core products not bad, Drupal add-ons
Re: CMS
Lori Hitchcock wrote: Working with a company developing a website in a LAMP environment and starting to look at CMS. Hearing good and bad about both Joomla and Drupal. The needs to be very simple for non-techs to add content. Does anyone have any advice or experience with either of these? Does any one have a positive experience with another CMS? Lori: Both Joomla and Drupal are fairly capable content management systems, and with great power comes, no, no that, comes a bit of overhead. Both have made a good effort at user-friendliness, but they're still non-trivial. As others have already answered, there are plugins and add-ons to simplify some of those tasks, and both products have active communities for peer support. For sophisticated sites, it's not unreasonable to bring in a consultant or train someone in-house as the adminstrator. What exactly is the company using the CMS for? If they really want a support forum or a multi-user blog or an issue tracking system, I'll bet many members of the forum will have suggestions. If they're locking for a document-management system, there might be other alternatives that are better tuned for that, again, depending on the exact situation. If they'd like to learn more about Drupal and are local, there's the first ever meetup of the NH Drupal Group next month at the Concord Monitor April 13th (http://groups.drupal.org/node/20441). Note the both the Monitor and New Hampshire Public Radio have pretty extensive Drupal sites. There are several Drupal practitioners among GNHLUG members, and we've seen presentations of Drupal at a couple meetings. Joomla! has also been presented several times to various GNHLUG groups, most notably by Barry North of Compass Design and JoomlaShack (http://www.compassdesigns.net/ and http://www.joomlashack.com/) who's based in Vermont and offers Joomla! training locally. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
On 2/8/07, Seth Cohn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, looks like I'll be doing not one, but 2 Intro to Drupal presentations. In April in Peterborough, and in May in Concord. And when are you going to do Nashua, hmmm? They've got the best on-site food and beer of any GNHLUG meeting. (Also the only on-site food and beer, but it's still pretty good.) BTW, cool domain name. :) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
If the first 2 go really well, and there is a demand, Nashua can be next. On 2/9/07, Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And when are you going to do Nashua, hmmm? They've got the best on-site food and beer of any GNHLUG meeting. (Also the only on-site food and beer, but it's still pretty good.) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Coincidentally, Guy Pardoe is doing a presentation on Joomla!, one of the top dozen contenders (along with Xaraya, that GNHLUG member Jonathan Linowes presented last year [1]) this very evening in Peterborough: I would love a follow-up posting of this meeting. I've been looking at WordPress over the past week and playing around with it on my laptop (If anyone has a Mac, and you want to play with LAMP stuff, get MAMP!) I've been fairly impressed so far, but also planned on looking at Joomla! (with, imo, has a cooler name just because it sounds rather silly :) -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Paul Lussier wrote: I would love a follow-up posting of this meeting. I'll try to take good notes. I've been looking at WordPress over the past week and playing around with it on my laptop (If anyone has a Mac, and you want to play with LAMP stuff, get MAMP!) I converted my blog to WordPress a while ago. Seems like a pretty solid project. But it is blog-specific software and not as flexible as a general-purpose CMS. I've been fairly impressed so far, but also planned on looking at Joomla! (with, imo, has a cooler name just because it sounds rather silly :) You might look at http://www.cmsmatrix.org for comparisons between the different CMSes. However, I'll warn you in advance: it's seems like most of them have everything including the kitchen sink. It may be more useful to visit the forums of the leading contenders, get a sense of the tone of the community, try out the demos, etc. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I converted my blog to WordPress a while ago. Seems like a pretty solid project. But it is blog-specific software and not as flexible as a general-purpose CMS. Can you define the difference then between what Joomla! can do that WordPress can't? From what I can tell, WP has plugins available to do damn near everything. I've been fairly impressed so far, but also planned on looking at Joomla! (with, imo, has a cooler name just because it sounds rather silly :) You might look at http://www.cmsmatrix.org for comparisons between the different CMSes. However, I'll warn you in advance: it's seems like most of them have everything including the kitchen sink. It may be more useful to visit the forums of the leading contenders, get a sense of the tone of the community, try out the demos, etc. I did a comparison between Joomla! and WP and they looked fairly equal with extremely minor exceptions. Perhaps I missed something. As I said, I've been poking at WP for less than a week and was also planning on poking at Joomla! in a similar way. One thing I *really* liked about Joomla! was the downloadable user manual available in PDF. It makes for reading about it much easier when you're on the train :) -- Seeya, Paul -- Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:28 PM, Paul Lussier wrote: Can you define the difference then between what Joomla! can do that WordPress can't? From what I can tell, WP has plugins available to do damn near everything. Nope, I can't. I set up WordPress as a single-user blog and haven't explored much in the way of plugins. I haven't worked with Joomla! only seen the demos, I did a comparison between Joomla! and WP and they looked fairly equal with extremely minor exceptions. Perhaps I missed something. As I said, I've been poking at WP for less than a week and was also planning on poking at Joomla! in a similar way. Considering the low cost of acquisition and installation, I think that's the right way to go. Test drive. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
Can you define the difference then between what Joomla! can do that WordPress can't? From what I can tell, WP has plugins available to do damn near everything. While Wordpress can do a lot, at the end of the day, it's a blog, not a CMS. If your goal is blogging first, and other items secondary, it'll do the job most likely. I've been fairly impressed so far, but also planned on looking at Joomla! (with, imo, has a cooler name just because it sounds rather silly :) Drupal. Xaraya, Mambo (now Joomla). All of these names are silly. I did a comparison between Joomla! and WP and they looked fairly equal with extremely minor exceptions. Perhaps I missed something. As I said, I've been poking at WP for less than a week and was also planning on poking at Joomla! in a similar way. Joomla's pretty. It's also easy to use, and gets a lot of newbie attention as a result. But (IMHO) the backend is very much 'separate'. Install a new function, and there is no guarantee the new functionality will mesh with the old. It's like running multiple programs that don't (always) talk to each other. (nothing against Joomla, btw, plenty of older CMSes were the same way. I hated coding for Postnuke (now Xaraya) for that reason. Take a look at (and install) Drupal 5.0. Drupal's now 6 years old, and very mature, very easy to use, and unlike the above, it's _very_ much built from the ground up in a modular manner. Its' motto is 'community plumbing', in part because of the tinkertoy manner in which you can connect pieces together. Want your blog entries to have event calendaring? Ok. Now want to add geolocation and a map? Ok. What, you want voting and promoting the best stuff to the front page, troll and spam protection, group permissions, e-commerce, image galleries, ajaxian coolness, and 50 other things? Ok. And for the most part, they all talk/interact together... and if you want it simple, you can do that too... One thing I *really* liked about Joomla! was the downloadable user manual available in PDF. It makes for reading about it much easier when you're on the train :) There are books (including PDFs) on all of the better CMSes. Professional bound (or pdf) books on Drupal exist (and I recommend them) but they aren't needed, as there is a nice handbook online as well as a strong community of users. Local sites running drupal you might have visited lately, and the people behind them... http://nhpr.org (running a very custom version I think at this point) coded by a local Drupal whiz Morbus Iff ( http://www.disobey.com ) Haven't met him, though we've emailed once or twice. http://www.concordspca.org coded by http://carnevaledesign.com Never met them. http://democracyfornewhampshire.com don't recall who is webmastering this now, but it's running Civicspace (a Drupal repackaging) and is a bit aged now. and on the other side of the fence, http://nhliberty.org which I _used_ to webmaster, running a slightly newer CivicSpace version. I'll volunteer right now to do a Drupal introduction at a upcoming Concord GNHlug meeting, if someone will schedule it. Seth (who spend many of his days doing Drupal developing) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Seth Cohn wrote: I'll volunteer right now to do a Drupal introduction at a upcoming Concord GNHlug meeting, if someone will schedule it. How's May 7th or June 4th work for you? Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: CMS comparison [ was: Web software for a family web site? ]
I'll volunteer right now to do a Drupal introduction at a upcoming Concord GNHlug meeting, if someone will schedule it. Ok, looks like I'll be doing not one, but 2 Intro to Drupal presentations. In April in Peterborough, and in May in Concord. Ah, the joys of offering to do a presentation... I knew there was a reason I didn't do this too often. (grin) BTW, occasionally there is a regular Drupal meetup in Boston... http://groups.drupal.org/boston I haven't been (but wouldn't mind sharing a drive with someone) and if we find enough interest, maybe we can do something in NH ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: SLUG (UNH) meeting notes for Mon 9 Jan 2006 - Plone CMS
Yeah, saw it in GoogleNews last night. Shouldn't have looked. Poor little thing. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com On Jan 11, 2006, at 8:04 PM, Greg Rundlett wrote: Don't look. I warned you not to look. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: SLUG (UNH) meeting notes for Mon 9 Jan 2006 - Plone CMS
Thanks, Ben. Work is occupying me day and night right now, so I haven't made a meeting in a while. This sounds like it was a good one! Should we be posting these notes to the wiki, preserving for posterity our impressions of events? I can see a need to try to recall some guy showed something about Plone at some meeting in the last year, and wanting to search for the information. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com On Jan 10, 2006, at 9:38 PM, Ben Scott wrote: I was able to attend the SLUG meeting last night (Mon 9 Jan 2006), in Durham, at UNH. In keeping with Ted Roche's excellent work with providing notes on what happened at various meetings, I'd like to share my recollections from last night Tucker demonstrated the web linking feature. Meow. Me-ow? There was a bunch of other stuff, some of which just doesn't translate well into email, some of which I didn't understand, and some of which I just plain forgot. But it was all very cool looking. Good job, Rob! Bravo, rob! And Thanks, Ben! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: SLUG (UNH) meeting notes for Mon 9 Jan 2006 - Plone CMS
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ted Roche wrote: | Thanks, Ben. Work is occupying me day and night right now, so I | haven't made a meeting in a while. This sounds like it was a good one! Yea! I've heard that excuse before. ;-) Oops, where was I Monday night? Oh yeah. Right. I was sick. That's the ticket, I was sick! :-) | Should we be posting these notes to the wiki, preserving for | posterity our impressions of events? I can see a need to try to | recall some guy showed something about Plone at some meeting in | the last year, and wanting to search for the information. I would vote that these things go on the Wiki - unless Rob has already posted it on the slug web site (in which case we should have a pointer to it). - --Bruce -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDxWc8/TBScWXa5IgRAoB+AKCfd/D1p51Oz14inC7KyfTW2pc06gCfYgvs +4duartgd/amTtV6qGqDu0w= =GTOE -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: SLUG (UNH) meeting notes for Mon 9 Jan 2006 - Plone CMS
Tucker demonstrated the web linking feature. Meow. Me-ow? Reference to Tucker's demo of web-linking He found a story/picture on Yahoo of a cyclops kitten. http://slug.gnhlug.org/plone/Members/teh/cyclops-kitten/ Don't look. I warned you not to look. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
