Re: F/OS the blind
Jeff Kinz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, except of course, the words simple and emacs should never, ever appear in the same sentence. :) I guess that completely depends upon your point of view :) The scripting language for emacs scripts is lisp (or a lisp variant?). It's not a scripting language, it's a full-fledged programming language which can be compiled. Emacs uses 'elisp', which is dialect of lisp written specifically to support emacs. Lisp, as a language, has been around since 1959, making it the oldest programming language still in common use today. It should have been Python, but circumstances conspired to prevent that :) Python is good, but it's not good as lisp. If interested, check out Paul Graham's site for some lisp history. Here's a good article explaining why Lisp is different than all other programming languages: http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html This article also explains what lisp has that python is lacking, why python is lacking it, and why python will probably never have it :) (Don't get me wrong, I love python, it's a great language, and makes some things extremely easy and it's OO architecture is, well, it would be very wrong to even *mention* perl in this sentence ;) -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Thursday 08 December 2005 9:15 am, Paul Lussier wrote: Python is good, but it's not good as lisp. Paul, I don't think that you can really compare them. Different computer languages have their strengths and weaknesses. In any case we could get into an endless discussion. I did like Graham's article. Thanks for posting it. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Programming Language History [was Re: F/OS the blind ]
Paul, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Lisp, as a language, has been around since 1959, making it the oldest programming language still in common use today. Fortran was started in 1954, and released in 1957. Cobol was also released in 1959. You can argue about the words common use, but you should not argue too loudly in the high performance computing arenas, nor in the business circles. md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:15:11AM -0500, Paul Lussier wrote: Jeff Kinz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, except of course, the words simple and emacs should never, ever appear in the same sentence. :) I guess that completely depends upon your point of view :) Humor, nothing more. (And what's funnier than emacs? ) (Sorry, I know that's not true, but I have trouble resisting a straight line (even my own.) ) :) The scripting language for emacs scripts is lisp (or a lisp variant?). It's not a scripting language, it's a full-fledged programming Ahem. It was a joke! In the context of the thread the perspective of the user originating the context was that of the scripting language for emacs. I was simply sticking with their context. I felt no need to start lecturing people about first year Computer Science nomenclature. Delving deeply into a CS-111 (A survey of programming languages) wouldn't have been conducive to the tone of light hearted humor. Some things don't need to be examined in detail. I've used lisp since 1978. ( CAR ( Damn near ruined me for ForTran...;-) )) I tried to solve everything by recursion after that. Its always much simpler for the programmer that way. ;- explaining why Lisp is different than all other programming languages: Any language based on hardware registers from old, unique hardware and entirely dependent on recursion will ALWAYS BE DIFFERENT from other languages. QUIZ TIME Did you know Peter, Paul and Mary wrote a song about Lisp once? (Can you guess the title?) (Use of GOOGLE permitted) QUIZ TIME AGAIN What was the machine that the lisp programming model was based on? (NO GOOGLE FOR THIS ONE, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS.) First correct answer posted gets a valuable virtual no-prize. (Don't get me wrong, I love python, it's a great language, and makes some things extremely easy and it's OO architecture is, well, it would be very wrong to even *mention* perl in this sentence ;) perl? wazzat? :) -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Thu, 2005-12-08 at 09:15 -0500, Paul Lussier wrote: Python is good, but it's not good as lisp. As a confirmed python nut, I could not resist tossing another URL onto the thread. http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html (Peter Norvig is Google's Director of Research) I do realize that language debates can last forever since different folks place different values on different features while also facing different challenges and situations. -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Programming langauges and such (was: F/OS the blind)
On 12/8/05, Jeff Kinz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Humor, nothing more. (And what's funnier than emacs? ) vi! (Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) ) It's not a scripting language, it's a full-fledged programming Ahem. It was a joke! It's a rather silly argument in any event, since the set of programming languages includes the set of scripting languages. I suspect Paul was really thinking of the age-old compiled vs interpreted distinction. Of course, said distinction has become rather confused in modern times, anyway. Consider that modern CPUs almost always do run-time interpretation to micro ops, and one could argue that *everything* is interpreted these days. Perl gets compiled into an intermediate form, and that then gets interpreted. You can also dump said intermediate to a file to skip that step. Then there's Java, which compiles into machine code, but usually for a machine that originally didn't even exist (although I understand some have been built!). What makes the Java VM different from a hardware emulator like Bochs? Does the existence of Bochs make all i386 programs interpreted? And that brings us back to micro-ops again. It isn't 1985 anymore. The old school of dividing everything into either source is compiled into native machine code vs source is interpreted at run-time doesn't really apply. And it wasn't very interesting even back then. :) I felt no need to start lecturing people about first year Computer Science nomenclature. Don't worry, on the Internet, *somebody* always feels like lecturing on nomenclature! ;-) Some things don't need to be examined in detail. That's crazy talk! ;-) What was the machine that the lisp programming model was based on? (NO GOOGLE FOR THIS ONE, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS.) It was a fairly early IBM with a 3- or 4- digit model number, IIRC. I think there was a 4 in it. (I ain't a LISP guy.) I do remember that CAR = Contents of Address Register and CDR = Contents of Decrement Register. The fundamental concept was to make everything a linked list (hence the name). The fundamental data structure was a pair. The first element of every pair (CAR) was a data value. The second element (CDR) was a pointer to the next element, if any. Everything (including LISP programs themselves) built from that. That's about all I know about LISP (other (then (the (parenthesis. First correct answer posted gets a valuable virtual no-prize. Useful for Java programmers. ;) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
Drew Van Zandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Emacspeak is just more icing on the cake. Hmm. That would mean that Emacs has more icing than cake ;-) And, of course, ou'll need the appropriate beverage with your cake :) For those with an RFC 2324 compliant coffee maker, there's: http://www.chez.com/emarsden/downloads/coffee.el and for those who prefer tea, there's http://grapevine.net.au/~striggs/elisp/teatime.el -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
Is this simply an emacs script -- Original message -- From: Paul Lussier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Drew Van Zandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Emacspeak is just more icing on the cake. Hmm. That would mean that Emacs has more icing than cake ;-) And, of course, ou'll need the appropriate beverage with your cake :) For those with an RFC 2324 compliant coffee maker, there's: http://www.chez.com/emarsden/downloads/coffee.el and for those who prefer tea, there's http://grapevine.net.au/~striggs/elisp/teatime.el -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
emacs does everything [ was: Re: F/OS the blind ]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is this simply an emacs script Is what simply an emacs script? Technically, there are no emacs scripts. There are .el files, which, for lack of a better analogy, are like 'include' files. Each .el module loaded into emacs (usually via your .emacs file, but not necessarilly) extends emacs somehow, providing you with a new set of functions, variables, and/or key-bindings to do neat and wonderful things. The two .el files I linked to in the e-mail both extend emacs in different ways. One provides functionality to make coffee over the network, provided you actually have compliant hardware. The other is nothing more than a timer to let you know when your tea is done. There are (possibly) more modules for extending emacs than there are debian packages and perl modules combined :) -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: emacs does everything [ was: Re: F/OS the blind ]
On Wednesday 07 December 2005 3:17 pm, Paul Lussier wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is this simply an emacs script Is what simply an emacs script? Technically, there are no emacs scripts. There are .el files, which, for lack of a better analogy, are like 'include' files. Each .el module loaded into emacs (usually via your .emacs file, but not necessarilly) extends emacs somehow, providing you with a new set of functions, variables, and/or key-bindings to do neat and wonderful things. Actually, they are more like OS modules. They can be either source or compiled. Compiled extensions have the extension .elc. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Drew Van Zandt wrote: I'm a vi guy, but my father-in-law is an Emacs fellow and is/was maintainer for an emacs text-to-speech Debian package... I'll have to ask him what it's called. Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? Ah. The venerable Emacspeak. Yes, but emacs has always done more than any sane person would want. Emacspeak is just more icing on the cake. Hmm. That would mean that Emacs has more icing than cake ;-) - --Bruce PS: And I *like* emacs! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDlYKh/TBScWXa5IgRAju5AKCIN3Xael9ZahjfF+GRy02hjI2/hgCgmnaK Su37KVA2MWo0FLerM/1PrsA= =IZkO -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Monday 05 December 2005 10:08 pm, Drew Van Zandt wrote: I'm a vi guy, but my father-in-law is an Emacs fellow and is/was maintainer for an emacs text-to-speech Debian package... I'll have to ask him what it's called. Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? Back in 1995, T. V. Raman and his dog Aster joined presented Emacspeak at a BLU meeting. I picked up 2 blind guys on my way to the meeting, then I picked up Raman. I didn't know that he had Aster with him. It got a bit crowded in the car :-) -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Dec 5, 2005, at 22:08, Drew Van Zandt wrote: Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? Except read Word Documents, mandated by some governments, because maybe the Emacs team is unwilling to be sued over patent infringement issues just to help the disabled. So, back to where this all started with OpenDocument - and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Pager: 603.442.1833 Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Text: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: F/OS the blind
On Tuesday 06 December 2005 9:12 am, Bill McGonigle wrote: Except read Word Documents, mandated by some governments, because maybe the Emacs team is unwilling to be sued over patent infringement issues just to help the disabled. So, back to where this all started with OpenDocument - and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar. Note that IBM sent a letter to Mitt Romney yesterday. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
F/OS the blind
I'm a vi guy, but my father-in-law is an Emacs fellow and is/was maintainer for an emacs text-to-speech Debian package... I'll have to ask him what it's called. Once you have that, doesn't emacs do more than any sane person would want? --Drew Van Zandt
