Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On Aug 31, 2006, at 15:57, Ted Roche wrote: He's working out of leased office space, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable. Can you expand on this? Is it because of the typical permanent installation of a generator which they see as a sunk cost? Or is the landlord unwilling to allow them to install one? Because a generator is what they need, and the I need to get to San Francisco for $450 in five hours, but a commercial airliner is unreasonable argument needs some support. I've worked with battery units similar to the link you sent - for the kind of runtime you need and the load you want, a generator is much much cheaper. You're probably looking at a $40K battery unit if the manufacturer is a name brand and isn't lying about the actual runtime and you need another $3-5K worth of electrician work to install it, if you're not going to be running extension cords all over the office. Either that or a nuclear battery like that town in Alaska is using, but then they'd need a nuclear engineer on their team - hey, wait... -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
Greg Rundlett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've probably already ruled this out b/c the building and office layout, but maybe a fueled generator running outside would work. Since there are local small UPSes, and people are onsite, there would be time to get the generator setup. Run some heavy duty extension cords to the office window. Solution cost $3,000 I'd say a printer can weather a power outage better than a PC. You might put the PCs on the UPS, but connect the printers to the regular power then move them to the generator if the power fails. You might set up a few workers with laptops, which have built-in UPSs. Maybe they get big LCDs too, but have to switch to the smaller laptop screens during a power outage. - Jim Van Zandt ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On Sep 1, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Ben Scott wrote: Every possible solution -- including relocating the office -- has a cost... Compare solution costs to the downtime cost schedule... I suspect the numbers will indicate the current solution (i.e., none) makes the most business sense. Spoken as a true engineer. A completely correct solution. I agree. However. long-term costs are fuzzier. They might lose $12 an hour per clerk, or $xxx dollars per form, but they can lose reputation, industry standing and very large long-term contracts. Portions of this this equation are surely not completely rational, but that's how you get to be the boss. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On 9/3/06, Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spoken as a true engineer. Hah! I resemble that remark! And, really, it's not just engineering that requires that kind of cold thought, but business. Business decisions always come to down to money. When you drag in non-money considerations, things just get muddy, but money always wins the argument. Decomposing everything to cash values should be the goal. However. long-term costs are fuzzier ... they can lose reputation, industry standing and very large long-term contracts. Absolutely. In the school of thought I subscribe to, the hardest aspect of business is quantizing those fuzzy costs. How much is reputation worth? (Bought a Ford Pinto lately? How about a Firestone tire? Flown on any zeppelins?) What about employee morale? The ability to sleep at night? Fortunately, being an engineer, I can simply shift those hard questions to other departments. Possible damage to our reputation? Hmmm, better ask Sales. ;-) But seriously: One has to start somewhere. Start by getting the numbers one *does* have down on paper, in concise form. The Powers That Be will then have all the information you can give them, to make their decisions. Portions of this this equation are surely not completely rational, but that's how you get to be the boss. Indeed. Many times, business (and life) comes down to luck. With all the information available, the answer still becomes, We cannot know. So the person in charge picks an arbitrary answer. If the answer turns out to be right, we shower them in riches and call them business geniuses. If it turns out to be wrong, they are hated by their employees and forgotten by history. Life is hard. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
You've probably already ruled this out b/c the building and office layout, but maybe a fueled generator running outside would work. Since there are local small UPSes, and people are onsite, there would be time to get the generator setup. Run some heavy duty extension cords to the office window. Solution cost $3,000 This one is 450 lbs. Runs for about 5-10 hours depending on load and offers up to 15,000 watts http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_METACNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jspBV_SessionID=1789588186.1157201532BV_EngineID=ccciaddikeljdmdcgelceffdfgidgim.0MID=9876 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
Your link sends me to lawn furniture, personally. ;-) ThomasOn 9/2/06, Greg Rundlett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:You've probably already ruled this out b/c the building and office layout, but maybe a fueled generator running outside would work.Since there are local small UPSes, and people are onsite, there wouldbe time to get the generator setup. Run some heavy duty extensioncords to the office window. Solution cost $3,000This one is 450 lbs.Runs for about 5-10 hours depending on load andoffers up to 15,000 watts http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_METACNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jspBV_SessionID=1789588186.1157201532BV_EngineID=ccciaddikeljdmdcgelceffdfgidgim.0MID=9876
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
A laser printer? The lights are out, and they want to print.. Honestly, I'd look at each system and decide what is required, and what isn't. Generally, you can power a decent amount on UPS, but have many of them do at least a safe shutdown. What buisness are they in where they can continue to operate with no power in a leased space, anyway? ThomasOn 8/31/06, Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:A client suffered a five-hour downtime recently, and has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. He's working out of leased officespace, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable.He happened upon:http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ And they offer 6 KW and 12 KW units.The client would like to keep a half-dozen computers, LCD screens anda laser printer or two running for a 4- to 6-hour period. Anyone haveexperience with a solution that would work? Things to look out for? For example, each computer has its own small APC UPS, so there wouldbe two sources of battery power in series. It's possible thegenerated AC would not be stable enough in voltage or frequency tokeep the UPSes from tripping on and off. I know this is a problem with the smaller, less-regulated generator units.Is there a good solution for a small office? Of should he be lookingfor a 10K VA UPS?Ted RocheTed Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com___gnhlug-discuss mailing listgnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On Sep 1, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Charron wrote: A laser printer? The lights are out, and they want to print.. Wouldn't cha think? They make money by printing pieces of paper and putting them in FedEx envelopes. People then send them money. No printing, no money. After 72 hours the paper is useless, so a lost Friday afternoon is lost money and, much worse, a lost reputation for reliability. Their incoming internet is on DSL and usually stays up. There's plenty of windows so they'll still be able to see enough to print. And the FedEx guy comes anyway. Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
Ted Roche wrote: On Aug 31, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Ben Scott wrote: You should have seen the one I used to manage onboard a submarine! So regardless of whether you go with a generator, a large battery plant, a flywheel, or a giant mutant hamster in a wheel, I think you are going to face problems in the area of physical plant. There's definitely a TANSTAAFL aspect to this. Well, we've actually thought of a variation of giant mutant hamster in a wheel (GMHIAW). We've decided on a 55 KW generator, but we're not happy with it and I'm still looking for more effective (and creative I'm afraid) solutions for the long run. The problems with the GMHIAW is: * Waste disposal is a problem. There's only so much land to compost on. Fortunately, we're a farm and don't [yet] need to file a EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) on this. * Food is also a problem, but solvable. Grain is comparatively cheap. But add vet bills, farrier, a second wheel for use while cleaning/maintaining the first, ... * Maintenance labor was the major con on this. Changing the team 8 times a day, tacking up, ... would take at least 1 person 24 hours. Add vacation and bennies for this person, ... * A team of 2 GMH would only generate about 7KW, which isn't really enough for us (but probably fine for Ted's client). BTW: Our GMH (giant mutant hamsters) come in the guise of draft horses. And this defintely won't work for Ted's client - talk about major infrastructure changes! But if you're interested in our project, check out our webcam at the house site, or email me off-line. The desktop UPSes and a full UPS are almost solutions to two different problems. The desktop UPSes are primarily line conditioners and for one minute or less blinks of power. The big battery is for long-term power outage. So you're probably best off getting rid of the small UPSes and going to one big solution. One concern there is that the power off one of these big boxes is ugly AC and may not be suitable for powering computers. I've heard no horror stories pro and con. I'm not really their IT guy as much as their lead developer. I was asked if I knew of a better solution. While the space is rented, I suspect the client might be there for a while, but infrastructural improvements might not be that welcomed. Their power distribution is wired in the walls, and their computers go right into outlets next to their fans and space heaters, loads you wouldn't want on the UPS. Short of rewiring the place with a special feed for computer power, I'm inclined to recommend they beef up their desktop UPSes for a half-dozen workstations. Maybe a couple of workstations with long-term use would be sufficient for them. But if they go the other way, I'll caution them to consider removing the desktop UPSes. Well, we've found that putting largish UPSs on each system rather economical - we end up replacing them about once every 3-5 years, so the cheaper the better. However, we do size our UPS so that we have about 20 minutes to get the generator running. But batteries are the biggest cost, and we've found good deals at that batteries place on Elm St. in Manchester. If we had to pay APC their replacement prices, we wouldn't be able to afford it. I suspect the best route for your client (if its who I suspect it is), is to spec standard sized line-interactive UPSs for the desktops, and for him to just budget buying 1 or 2 extender packs a month until he has enough for all the systems. The extender packs are hot-swappable, and in a pinch you can swap in a set while charging a set off-site on a generator (or someplace that has more reasonable power). Careful though, a lot of the UPSs can't handle a lot of amp-hours when it comes to charging. And its difficult getting the vendors to fess up how many extender packs their units can support. (If they say as many as you want, tell them you want to talk to their engineer). --Bruce ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On 9/1/06, Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They make money by printing pieces of paper and putting them in FedEx envelopes. How much money per unit of product (envelope, sheet of paper, whatever)? How many envelopes do they generate per unit of time? Once you have those numbers, you know your downtime cost per unit of time. You apparently have some history on power reliability. From that data, you can generate a downtime cost schedule, showing the cost for an outage of a given duration, along with the likelihood of such an outage. Every possible solution -- including relocating the office -- has a cost. Compare solution costs to the downtime cost schedule. I suspect the numbers will indicate the current solution (i.e., none) makes the most business sense. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On 9/1/06, Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 1, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Charron wrote: A laser printer? The lights are out, and they want to print..Wouldn't cha think?They make money by printing pieces of paper and putting them in FedEx envelopes. People then send them money. No printing, no money. After72 hours the paper is useless, so a lost Friday afternoon is lostmoney and, much worse, a lost reputation for reliability.Their incoming internet is on DSL and usually stays up. There's plenty of windows so they'llstill be able to see enough to print.And the FedEx guy comes anyway. That makes the power issue even worse. What is the power usage of the printer(s)? I would imagine that the amount of money they make for a 'x' hour period would be the main factor they'd want to consider. How many hours per year downtime would it take to justify a 10k+ $$ purchase? APC sells some nice ones at http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=276 but note, 45 minutes at 2,000W power draw. While that sounds like alot, a typical 'nice' set of workstations, monitors, and a laser printer, probrably end up drawing at least 1,000W, so basically, maybee an hour and a half for 12k $$. Kick that up to 15k $$, and you have a possible solution. From there, just do the math to see how long it would take in a typical workload it would take to recoup the cost. If they can make 15k $$ out of 24 hours of work, I'd say go for it. IF you can find a place to put the bastages. ;-) Thomas
Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
A client suffered a five-hour downtime recently, and has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. He's working out of leased office space, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable. He happened upon: http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ And they offer 6 KW and 12 KW units. The client would like to keep a half-dozen computers, LCD screens and a laser printer or two running for a 4- to 6-hour period. Anyone have experience with a solution that would work? Things to look out for? For example, each computer has its own small APC UPS, so there would be two sources of battery power in series. It's possible the generated AC would not be stable enough in voltage or frequency to keep the UPSes from tripping on and off. I know this is a problem with the smaller, less-regulated generator units. Is there a good solution for a small office? Of should he be looking for a 10K VA UPS? Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:03 -0400 Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. 2. http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ Interesting site. I'll make one prediction: that 2. will be found to conflict with 1... -Bill P.S. The client's landlord and/or structural engineers might have something to say about 200 amp-hour batteries, that much acid in a leased office, ventilation for the effluent hydrogen during charging, structural checkout for the weight of that much lead (if the office isn't in the basement), and maybe a few other things. OTOH, if your client DOES solve 1, reasonably priced solution, a lot of us here will be grateful for the report! ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
The biggest headache I've had with the larger UPS' is their batteries. They seem to last only a few years, so I've dumped my APC Matrix UPS in favor of running multiple smaller UPS (with cheaper batteries) and a generator. All the larger UPS solutions I've run into clearly make their money on their proprietary batteries. For a centralized solution, I would recommend getting a couple of ProSine 3KW inverters and lots of deep-discharge batteries - the more batteries, the longer you'll stay up. --Bruce PS: The ProSine inverters run a coupla grand each. However, they do provide a true sinewave (and last nearly forever). Ted Roche wrote: A client suffered a five-hour downtime recently, and has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. He's working out of leased office space, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable. He happened upon: http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ And they offer 6 KW and 12 KW units. The client would like to keep a half-dozen computers, LCD screens and a laser printer or two running for a 4- to 6-hour period. Anyone have experience with a solution that would work? Things to look out for? For example, each computer has its own small APC UPS, so there would be two sources of battery power in series. It's possible the generated AC would not be stable enough in voltage or frequency to keep the UPSes from tripping on and off. I know this is a problem with the smaller, less-regulated generator units. Is there a good solution for a small office? Of should he be looking for a 10K VA UPS? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
On 8/31/06, Ted Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A client suffered a five-hour downtime recently, and has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. Define reasonably priced. What your client is asking for does not come cheap. The client would like to keep a half-dozen computers, LCD screens and a laser printer or two running for a 4- to 6-hour period. The laser printers are going to kill you. The computers and the LCDs can be adapted to run directly off DC/battery, which can gain you a lot. But the fuser in a laser printer is essentially a small space heater, and sucks power like crazy. Can your client give up the requirement to keep the laser printers running? He's working out of leased office space, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable. As I know you know, a large battery plant is a non-trivial thing. In addition to everything Bill Sconce already pointed out, there may be fire code requirements as well. I know the battery plants in telco COs are truly scary in their potential for destruction. So regardless of whether you go with a generator, a large battery plant, a flywheel, or a giant mutant hamster in a wheel, I think you are going to face problems in the area of physical plant. For example, each computer has its own small APC UPS, so there would be two sources of battery power in series. All the UPS vendors I am familiar with say Don't do that -- generally very loudly. It's also rather inefficient. Inefficiency is the enemy of economy and compactness, which you have give as goals. So you're probably best off getting rid of the small UPSes and going to one big solution. http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ From their site: The systems do not produce heat... Neat! I wasn't aware the Second Law of Thermodynamics had been repealed. ;-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Long-term (hours+) solution for power outage: PBX, lights, and computers
Ted Roche writes: A client suffered a five-hour downtime recently, and has been looking for a reasonably priced solution. He's working out of leased office space, and a generator or major structural changes are unreasonable. He happened upon: http://www.sentrypowertechnology.com/ And they offer 6 KW and 12 KW units. The client would like to keep a half-dozen computers, LCD screens and a laser printer or two running for a 4- to 6-hour period. Anyone have experience with a solution that would work? Things to look out for? For example, each computer has its own small APC UPS, so there would be two sources of battery power in series. It's possible the generated AC would not be stable enough in voltage or frequency to keep the UPSes from tripping on and off. I know this is a problem with the smaller, less-regulated generator units. Is there a good solution for a small office? Of should he be looking for a 10K VA UPS? Most UPS manufacturers have extended-run models that you can attach multiple external battery packs for hours and hours of runtime. Are we talking about equipment that is distributed throughout the office or a bunch of network equipment and servers? If they are centralized then one big extended run UPS is in order. It's generally not a good idea to chain UPSs. For really long run (4+ hours) a generator to power the UPS is usually a better solution. 3KVA-6KVA generators aren't that big, but you do need to wheel them outside before turning them on. -- Dave ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
