Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
On Mar 6, 2008, at 18:11, Ben Scott wrote: > A bench grinder also ate through the platter fairly easily > (not quite like a knife through butter, but close), but there was > always a piece left over where we had to grip the platter with pliers. Since you're open to power tools, a belt sander might be more useful - the platter would stay intact but the surface would be completely abraded. A random orbit sander with 30 or 60 grit velcro discs could be the basis for an automated platter eater, if you're feeling creative. All this is predicated on the probability that your attacker would employ force probe microscopy after tracking your drives through your recycler, instead of bribing one of your employees with a million dollars, of course. > For regular business data of normal sensitivity, I use DBAN if the > drive works, or repeated applications of a drill press if it doesn't. .40 S&W works well too. 180 grain FMJ has excellent results on hard drives. Safer than a drill press, too (looks at scar...). Cleanup is slightly more labor intensive, though. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
[aggregate reply to multiple people] On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Jim Kuzdrall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So it appeared to be a hangup in the drive's internal controller > when it has a long series of read/writes to do. It could also be that there are bad blocks/sectors on the disk itself. I've encountered situations where something (drive firmware/drive electronics/host adapter/whatever) gets terminally wedged trying to recover from bad sectors. Nominally, the cost effective thing to do is discard the drive, but we've been over that, so here's some more ideas that probably won't work :-) **WARNING**: "badblocks -w" nominally DESTROYS ALL DATA ON THE DRIVE. Running "badblocks -w" (destructive write test) on a failing drive will sometimes revive it, at least for a while. There's even a reason: If a modern drive encounters a bad sector trying to service a read request, it will not remap that logical address to a spare sector until it can successfully read the data. (You might want that data, after all.) But when new data (the badblocks test pattern) gets written to that same logical address, the drive knows it can remap to a spare sector and discard whatever was in the bad sector. (The badblocks "non-destructive write test" first reads the contents of every block (so it can preserve and re-write the contents), so that won't work for this.) IBM/Hitachi/whoever-they-are-now provides utilities that attempt to diagnose problems on a drive. They also provide firmware updates for many of their drives. Check their website for these and see if they have anything for your drive. There may be a way to send a "reformat" command to the drive using available utilities (either OEM, or third-party). Nominally, modern drives are low-level formatted for life by the factory, but sometimes there are still things that can be "reformatted" in the field, and that might revive a failing drive. Sometimes third-parties have figured out OEM-specific commands that do this. Not sure where you'd begin looking, though. On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Jim Kuzdrall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ice cream to sooth nerves (6 times)33.37 Ah-hah! A smart man knows that the proper tools can make a huge difference. I knew I was missing some critical tools from my bench at work. I will have to put in a requisition for that! :-D On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Bill McGonigle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Usually when a drive fails -c, there's also a S.M.A.R.T. error code. I haven't been keeping statistics, but I know I've had more than two drives that were far enough gone that they were causing problems in the OS, but that SMART said were still hunky-doory. On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I usually use DBAN or Knoppix and scrub, but if they drive doesn't spin I'd > like more. At work, experimentation found that sandblasting was "best" (for our definition of "best"). But then, we already had the sandblasting station. A bench grinder also ate through the platter fairly easily (not quite like a knife through butter, but close), but there was always a piece left over where we had to grip the platter with pliers. Anything that didn't completely obliterate the recording surface -- e.g., drilling holes, hitting it with a hammer, data overwrite -- wasn't acceptable. I believe chemicals were acceptable, but only if they dissolved a certain measurable thickness from the platters, and anything that strong has high purchase/handling/disposal costs, and we didn't already have some. Magnets were easiest of all, but approved degaussing magnets started at around $1000. For regular business data of normal sensitivity, I use DBAN if the drive works, or repeated applications of a drill press if it doesn't. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I still find it easier to open the case, remove the platter (and > magnets) and chuck the rest of the stuff in the recycling bin. The platters are actually pretty brittle. You can open the case, save the magnets, and give the platters a good whack with a hammer to shatter them. A friend found out they were brittle while making an "art project" out of some retired disks... (Ok, he was making an ash tray... and the platters snapped while he was bending them.) Brian ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
Hydrofluoric acid is about the mildest chemical that may remove that coating, from what I've seen. If you don't want to open the case (and salvage those great magnets) then your best option is heat(wood stove, propane torch, oven - not microwave - on cleaning cycle. Best done when your wife is not home. The plastic parts stink when they melt. Or you could leave it in the driveway for a few weeks. Between driving over it and road salt you MAY wind up with an unreadable disk. Or buy a big hammer and beat on it. If it's ugly enough maybe no one will think it's worth the effort to try to recover the data. Or you could pump some epoxy or potting compound into the case through the holes that you were planning on drilling anyway. I still find it easier to open the case, remove the platter (and magnets) and chuck the rest of the stuff in the recycling bin. Mike Miller -- Original message -- From: Jim Kuzdrall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On Thursday 06 March 2008 11:54, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Sandblasting will probably be the quickest way to remove that > > coating. It's tough. Makes a good mirror though. > > It is a long shot, but I am looking for some mild chemical will do > enough damage in a week or so of soaking to preclude recovering any > data. The goal is no-work, no-cost, no-pollution, no-worry. (Just > drill a couple of .25" holes in the unit to let the solvent in.) This > would be a personal/small office solution, not a large scale commercial > solution. > > Jim Kuzdrall > ___ > gnhlug-discuss mailing list > gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
On Thursday 06 March 2008 11:54, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Sandblasting will probably be the quickest way to remove that > coating. It's tough. Makes a good mirror though. It is a long shot, but I am looking for some mild chemical will do enough damage in a week or so of soaking to preclude recovering any data.The goal is no-work, no-cost, no-pollution, no-worry. (Just drill a couple of .25" holes in the unit to let the solvent in.) This would be a personal/small office solution, not a large scale commercial solution. Jim Kuzdrall ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
Sandblasting will probably be the quickest way to remove that coating. It's tough. Makes a good mirror though. Mike Miller -- Original message -- From: "Tom Buskey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Jim Kuzdrall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Actually, I do have some curiosity left. After disassembling the drive, I want to see if any common household chemicals can etch off the platter's magnetic coating. Let us know the results. I usually use DBAN or Knoppix and scrub, but if they drive doesn't spin I'd like more.--- Begin Message --- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ --- End Message --- ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Jim Kuzdrall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Actually, I do have some curiosity left. After disassembling the > drive, I want to see if any common household chemicals can etch off the > platter's magnetic coating. > Let us know the results. I usually use DBAN or Knoppix and scrub, but if they drive doesn't spin I'd like more. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: >> Cost of saving Dell Inspiron 2650 (original cost ~$800) >> "Technician" @ $40/hr 57 hr .. $2280.00 >> Book "Understanding the Linux Kernel" 49.95 >> Ice cream to sooth nerves (6 times)33.37 >> Replacement hard drive (160GB) 93.75 >> Rebate from wife for saving environment -22.78 >> Total 2434.29 >> > > Cost of all that technical help from the GNHLUG mailing > list...Priceless! > > md > I would have said: More than you ever felt comfortable knowing about the i386 architecture: Priceless! But it's all the same. Glad to hear that you solved your problem. Diagnosing hardware failure can be grueling. -- Coleman ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
On Wednesday 05 March 2008 21:38, Bill McGonigle wrote: > Nice detective work, Jim! > > On Mar 5, 2008, at 16:28, Jim Kuzdrall wrote: > >The drive tested the same at 20C with either the -c or -c -c > > options. > > Did you happen to interrogate the S.M.A.R.T status during this > process? Usually when a drive fails -c, there's also a S.M.A.R.T. > error code. Tried. Drive was too old to support SMART. > > > So it appeared to be a hangup in the drive's internal > > controller when it has a long series of read/writes to do. The > > "locate" database search may have triggered it in situ. > > You can probably convince the kernel to throw smaller command queues > at it. I've had to do this for a Dell PERC 3di RAID controller and a > few bad NCQ implementations on SATA II drives, esp. under Linux 2.6 > which appears to be more efficient than 2.4 (or Windows) in this > regard, so some controller firmwares get confused (race conditions, > small buffers, I dunno). Yes, I have had similar things happen in my designs. The data rate starts to wrap the buffer. The receiver notifies the sender, but data is lost before the sender responds. Usually, the sender has filled a buffer that is completing its transmission under hardware control. Many of the classic "RS-232" controllers responded to Clear-to-Send (CTS line) in two bytes maximum, but the ATA interface may have lost that feature. > > > I doubt I will ever know and no > > longer care. > > Aww, c'mon, push it over 60 hours, and go for the 'really > environmental' status. :) Actually, I do have some curiosity left. After disassembling the drive, I want to see if any common household chemicals can etch off the platter's magnetic coating. Jim Kuzdrall ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
Nice detective work, Jim! On Mar 5, 2008, at 16:28, Jim Kuzdrall wrote: >The drive tested the same at 20C with either the -c or -c -c > options. Did you happen to interrogate the S.M.A.R.T status during this process? Usually when a drive fails -c, there's also a S.M.A.R.T. error code. > So it appeared to be a hangup in the drive's internal controller > when it has a long series of read/writes to do. The "locate" database > search may have triggered it in situ. You can probably convince the kernel to throw smaller command queues at it. I've had to do this for a Dell PERC 3di RAID controller and a few bad NCQ implementations on SATA II drives, esp. under Linux 2.6 which appears to be more efficient than 2.4 (or Windows) in this regard, so some controller firmwares get confused (race conditions, small buffers, I dunno). > I doubt I will ever know and no > longer care. Aww, c'mon, push it over 60 hours, and go for the 'really environmental' status. :) Actually, the best reason to try it would be that if you got it to work that way, you could report the model number back upstream, and there's probably a blacklist for drives that do things like this in the responsible driver. That kind of thing can save lots of people heartburn down the road, especially folks who are just trying to get Ubuntu installed and can't figure out why linux is so unstable... -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
On Wednesday 05 March 2008 18:33, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > > Cost of saving Dell Inspiron 2650 (original cost ~$800) > > "Technician" @ $40/hr 57 hr .. $2280.00 > > Book "Understanding the Linux Kernel" 49.95 > > Ice cream to sooth nerves (6 times)33.37 > > Replacement hard drive (160GB) 93.75 > > Rebate from wife for saving environment -22.78 > > Total 2434.29 > > Cost of all that technical help from the GNHLUG mailing > list...Priceless! As usual. Even when it is not my problem or question, there is always something of value to learn here. I thought of adding the received value of 1 week in a college computer technology course (pro rata) to offset the cost. But, it has been so long that I don't even know how they charge for courses these days. It used to be $25 per semester credit hour. It must have gone up somewhat. One spring we has a tuition "riot" because $900/semester tuition was "too damn much". Thanks to everybody for this help and to the list in general for perpetuating the spirit of sharing and helping. Jim Kuzdrall ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Laptop Saved! (was RAM Mapping Script)
> Cost of saving Dell Inspiron 2650 (original cost ~$800) > "Technician" @ $40/hr 57 hr .. $2280.00 > Book "Understanding the Linux Kernel" 49.95 > Ice cream to sooth nerves (6 times)33.37 > Replacement hard drive (160GB) 93.75 > Rebate from wife for saving environment -22.78 > Total 2434.29 Cost of all that technical help from the GNHLUG mailing list...Priceless! md -- Jon "maddog" Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
